Author Topic: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's  (Read 667173 times)

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Offline Performa01

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #100 on: November 29, 2023, 05:31:31 pm »
Quote from: Neutrion
And, by the way the sds2104x-e for example is not a really good 200 Mhz scope

Where did you get that idea?
Never mind. Such a scope doesn't even exist.
And if so, it would certainly be a 100 MHz instrument.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 05:34:17 pm by Performa01 »
 

Offline Antonio90

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #101 on: November 29, 2023, 05:34:57 pm »
I like Siglent SDS1104X-E a lot. It's the most competent oscilloscope in it's range. A very mature device with the last firmware.
Siglent is very good to take out the maximum performance from a given hardware. Nothing is wasted.

If SDS800X will be the successor, I'm sure it will be a best buy. Let's hope that the price will be in the DHO900 range, or lower.
Yes, the price is one of the main deciding factors. The efficiency in making use of available hardware is irrelevant if it is priced out of it's range. In entry-level 'scopes price is king.
I don't think many would buy it at $800, for example, but we will see.
 

Offline Antonio90

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #102 on: November 29, 2023, 05:36:19 pm »
Quote from: Neutrion
And, by the way the sds2104x-e for example is not a really good 200 Mhz scope

Where did you get that idea?
Never mind. Such a scope doesn't even exist.
And if so, it would certainly be a 100 MHz instrument.
I think he meant 1204X-E. It seems to be a typo.
 
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Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #103 on: November 29, 2023, 06:20:39 pm »
[Does one have to be condescending to be allowed into the Siglent appreciation society?

I think not, but I hear you have to get a special apron.
 

Offline core

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #104 on: November 29, 2023, 06:22:13 pm »
I like Siglent SDS1104X-E a lot. It's the most competent oscilloscope in it's range. A very mature device with the last firmware.
Siglent is very good to take out the maximum performance from a given hardware. Nothing is wasted.

If SDS800X will be the successor, I'm sure it will be a best buy. Let's hope that the price will be in the DHO900 range, or lower.
Yes, the price is one of the main deciding factors. The efficiency in making use of available hardware is irrelevant if it is priced out of it's range. In entry-level 'scopes price is king.
I don't think many would buy it at $800, for example, but we will see.

It seems that Siglent was surprised by the Rigol's explosion : DHO800, 900, 1000. They filled the hole entry to medium level scopes with 12 bit ADCs.
I believe that SDS1000X HD price was well above the DHO1000, so they suspended the project and now are trying to find a solution in order to lower the costs. Maybe it's not the best option, because it's a lot of space between DHO1000 and SDS2000X HD / DHO4000. I was waiting the SDS1000X HD, but it seems that in the near future nothing will go out.

The weak point in Rigol's DHO family seems to be the DHO900, it's "800" hardware cannot be good enough for the claimed performance and advanced options like AFG, Bode Plot, Digital Channels.

But Siglent is very good in optimizing the hw resources vs advanced options, so I believe that SDS800X HD will be out soon because they can't miss this opportunity.
 

Offline Antonio90

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #105 on: November 29, 2023, 06:35:53 pm »
I like Siglent SDS1104X-E a lot. It's the most competent oscilloscope in it's range. A very mature device with the last firmware.
Siglent is very good to take out the maximum performance from a given hardware. Nothing is wasted.

If SDS800X will be the successor, I'm sure it will be a best buy. Let's hope that the price will be in the DHO900 range, or lower.
Yes, the price is one of the main deciding factors. The efficiency in making use of available hardware is irrelevant if it is priced out of it's range. In entry-level 'scopes price is king.
I don't think many would buy it at $800, for example, but we will see.

It seems that Siglent was surprised by the Rigol's explosion : DHO800, 900, 1000. They filled the hole entry to medium level scopes with 12 bit ADCs.
I believe that SDS1000X HD price was well above the DHO1000, so they suspended the project and now are trying to find a solution in order to lower the costs.
That seems very likely. They were counting on the "premium" the 12 bits can carry and Rigol threw it all over the ground. Now the SDS1000X-HD will be inevitably compared against the DHO1000, and as good as it might be, a $500+ premium is kinda hard to swallow, and AWG and LA are all very expensive external modules, so the advantages are mostly moot in that regard.

With the SDS800X-HD they can actually say "yes, it has a smaller screen, but base specs are the same, it has better software, math AND it is cheaper". It seems quite a bit better than the DHO800, and luckily for Siglent, the DHO900 MSO capabilities don't work properly, so it should be an easy sell, at the right price.
I'm still waiting for the 1000X-HD, but the future doesn't look very bright.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 06:38:40 pm by Antonio90 »
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #106 on: November 29, 2023, 06:38:55 pm »
I like Siglent SDS1104X-E a lot. It's the most competent oscilloscope in it's range. A very mature device with the last firmware.
Siglent is very good to take out the maximum performance from a given hardware. Nothing is wasted.

If SDS800X will be the successor, I'm sure it will be a best buy. Let's hope that the price will be in the DHO900 range, or lower.
Yes, the price is one of the main deciding factors. The efficiency in making use of available hardware is irrelevant if it is priced out of it's range. In entry-level 'scopes price is king.
I don't think many would buy it at $800, for example, but we will see.

It seems that Siglent was surprised by the Rigol's explosion : DHO800, 900, 1000. They filled the hole entry to medium level scopes with 12 bit ADCs.
I believe that SDS1000X HD price was well above the DHO1000, so they suspended the project and now are trying to find a solution in order to lower the costs. Maybe it's not the best option, because it's a lot of space between DHO1000 and SDS2000X HD / DHO4000. I was waiting the SDS1000X HD, but it seems that in the near future nothing will go out.

The weak point in Rigol's DHO family seems to be the DHO900, it's "800" hardware cannot be good enough for the claimed performance and advanced options like AFG, Bode Plot, Digital Channels.

But Siglent is very good in optimizing the hw resources vs advanced options, so I believe that SDS800X HD will be out soon because they can't miss this opportunity.
They were really caught by surprise. I have to assume the 12 bit ADC is not significantly more expensive than a 8 bit one, otherwise we wouldn't see scopes at 350 EUR with a 12 bit ADC. The best Siglent could do is reducing the price of the SDS2000 series. Right now, even if they launch the SDS1000 HD, they probably position it above the SDS1000s, so 800-1200 EUR, plus tax, which is out of budget for most hobbyist. Also since they don't have a built in AWG, LA, the real price is 2000 EUR for a fully featured product, and then the scope is DOA, nobody will buy it. But I doubt they would be doing that, both these companies seem to decide the features and price for their scopes with a D6 dice roll and an Ouija board.
 

Offline Antonio90

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #107 on: November 29, 2023, 06:44:47 pm »
Fast 12 bit ADCs are significantly more expensive than 8 bit ones. Or were, at least.
Rigol developped its own, and it probably did cost a lot, but maybe the manufacturing costs are similar to 8 bit ones.
The question is how do they intend to get the R&D investment back.
 

Offline core

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #108 on: November 29, 2023, 07:02:04 pm »
I like Siglent SDS1104X-E a lot. It's the most competent oscilloscope in it's range. A very mature device with the last firmware.
Siglent is very good to take out the maximum performance from a given hardware. Nothing is wasted.

If SDS800X will be the successor, I'm sure it will be a best buy. Let's hope that the price will be in the DHO900 range, or lower.
Yes, the price is one of the main deciding factors. The efficiency in making use of available hardware is irrelevant if it is priced out of it's range. In entry-level 'scopes price is king.
I don't think many would buy it at $800, for example, but we will see.

It seems that Siglent was surprised by the Rigol's explosion : DHO800, 900, 1000. They filled the hole entry to medium level scopes with 12 bit ADCs.
I believe that SDS1000X HD price was well above the DHO1000, so they suspended the project and now are trying to find a solution in order to lower the costs. Maybe it's not the best option, because it's a lot of space between DHO1000 and SDS2000X HD / DHO4000. I was waiting the SDS1000X HD, but it seems that in the near future nothing will go out.

The weak point in Rigol's DHO family seems to be the DHO900, it's "800" hardware cannot be good enough for the claimed performance and advanced options like AFG, Bode Plot, Digital Channels.

But Siglent is very good in optimizing the hw resources vs advanced options, so I believe that SDS800X HD will be out soon because they can't miss this opportunity.
They were really caught by surprise. I have to assume the 12 bit ADC is not significantly more expensive than a 8 bit one, otherwise we wouldn't see scopes at 350 EUR with a 12 bit ADC. The best Siglent could do is reducing the price of the SDS2000 series. Right now, even if they launch the SDS1000 HD, they probably position it above the SDS1000s, so 800-1200 EUR, plus tax, which is out of budget for most hobbyist. Also since they don't have a built in AWG, LA, the real price is 2000 EUR for a fully featured product, and then the scope is DOA, nobody will buy it. But I doubt they would be doing that, both these companies seem to decide the features and price for their scopes with a D6 dice roll and an Ouija board.

Regarding the SDS2000X HD, the price is so high for the beginners or even the advanced hobbyists, that in this blog the activity regarding this scope is almost already dead. Nobody wants to hack it  :-DD
For sure the price it's a very important point no matter the performance.

But Rigol's decision is in our advantage.
From now everyone will look for an entry level real 12bit scope. A huge opportunity to sell and replace the 8bit "deprecated scopes" we all are using now. Even if for our needs this switch is not really a must. But there is an expression : do I really need it ? No. Do I wanted ? Yes.

« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 07:05:40 pm by core »
 

Offline KungFuJosh

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #109 on: November 29, 2023, 07:17:59 pm »
Does one have to be condescending to be allowed into the Siglent appreciation society?

If you want to show me where to find the 800X HD specs online, go ahead.
Mentions of the product name alone don't cut it.

(And yes, I'm doing alright at Googling and comprehending stuff, thank you very much.)

lol, no offense was intended. Your googling skills weren't sufficient if you didn't find information that other people did find. Simple as that.

The comprehension thing wasn't directed at you (you can obviously comprehend what an oscilloscope is), but at the people in the IT business that don't know WTF they're doing (or worse, the people that hire them).
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Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #110 on: November 29, 2023, 08:35:07 pm »
that in this blog the activity regarding this scope is almost already dead. Nobody wants to hack it  :-DD

We have a saying that goes like this: "Ignorance is half way to happiness."
 
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Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #111 on: November 29, 2023, 09:47:30 pm »
Returning to topic with an extremely important question:

Why is it called "HD" if there is no previous SDS800X ? Why not just SDS800X?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #112 on: November 29, 2023, 09:52:32 pm »
Maybe too close to SHS800X, their portable scope series.

Offline tv84

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #113 on: November 29, 2023, 10:09:36 pm »
Maybe too close to SHS800X, their portable scope series.

Could be.

What I also find interesting is that there is no reference to this designation in the SDS1000X HD or SDS2000X HD app code!!

We have all the big brothers there, even the 7000A  (NEZHA), but no reference to a SDS800X HD or a codename. Won't it share code? Or is it Android like Rigol...  :-DD
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 10:15:50 pm by tv84 »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #114 on: November 29, 2023, 10:20:50 pm »

Regarding the SDS2000X HD, the price is so high for the beginners or even the advanced hobbyists, that in this blog the activity regarding this scope is almost already dead. Nobody wants to hack it  :-DD
For sure the price it's a very important point no matter the performance.

But Rigol's decision is in our advantage.
From now everyone will look for an entry level real 12bit scope. A huge opportunity to sell and replace the 8bit "deprecated scopes" we all are using now. Even if for our needs this switch is not really a must. But there is an expression : do I really need it ? No. Do I wanted ? Yes.

SDS 2000X HD is not a beginners or hobby scope. It is very inexpensive actually, for what it is..
Price is important but follows function, capability and quality.

Otherwise we should also complain how too expensive are Keysight MSOX3000G. Or R&S RTM3000 or RTB2000 for a beginner hobbyist....

As for Rigol, I tried to explain it before...

12Bit scopes are not some magic by virtue of 12bits alone.

If you have 12 bit scope (with low noise that must accompany it)  that has same functions and capabilities as old 8 bit one, you will have exactly the same capabilities as before.  You won't be able to do anything new with it, except the small signal stuff, that will be  obviously better....

Everybody expects that new platforms will have "more features" but that is not given fact. Also on new platform, you might get something new but loose something old. For instance, on old Rigol DS1000Z you got very nice measurements trend plots. That is missing in new DHO scopes (even in expensive DHO4000). New ones have histogram though.
But if you need to measure something like data logger for long time, DS1000Z will do that job for you. None of the later models will... At all, despite being 12 bit.

For what I can see SDS800X HD will have most of the capabilities of SDS2000X HD in smaller package.
If they price it close to DHO800 (meaning reasonably above) that would create problems for Rigol. DHO800 is very basic scope with very little capabilities.
It would make superb (once it is debugged) replacement for Rigol DS1000Z.
But in comparison to SDS800X HD, DHO800 has something like 30% of capabilities of Siglent. Just compare math channels.

It is questionable whether average beginner needs or even can understand/appreciate the difference.
But difference is (will be, once it is released) there and it is significant.

But, for the record, I personally don't agree with practice about releasing info about new products too soon. I think it is counterproductive. It makes fact that one manufacturer is actually very professional and develops products in very serious and professional manner somehow presented like a bad thing.
"Siglent lost the race to market" instead "Rigol released too soon and now there are thousands of people with scopes that don't work".

I personally think Rigol was very unprofessional and released unfinished products. If anything, with time it will be many unhappy users. Rigol did bad thing for long term reputation. In my opinion, of course..
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #115 on: November 29, 2023, 10:24:08 pm »
Maybe too close to SHS800X, their portable scope series.

Could be.

What I also find interesting is that there is no reference to this designation in the SDS1000X HD or SDS2000X HD app code!!

We have all the big brothers there, even the 7000A  (NEZHA), but no reference to a SDS800X HD or a codename. Won't it share code? Or is it Android like Rigol...  :-DD

I doubt it. It is probably a fork (HW/SW) of a sort of new SDS1000X HD.
 

Offline Antonio90

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #116 on: November 29, 2023, 11:01:05 pm »

[...]12Bit scopes are not some magic by virtue of 12bits alone.

If you have 12 bit scope (with low noise that must accompany it)  that has same functions and capabilities as old 8 bit one, you will have exactly the same capabilities as before.  You won't be able to do anything new with it, except the small signal stuff, that will be  obviously better....[...]

I'm a beginner but, aren't 12 bit scopes actually quite a bit better in some regards? Even more for a beginner.

For example, basic subtraction of waveforms, to get "differential" measurements. It's not nearly as good as a differential probe, but 12 bits (with low noise) improve them a lot and I've used that a few times.
Also, it's much better for analysis of transients or unexpected glitches, as you can zoom in with a lot more detail, and can also capture "bigger" signals with the improved dynamic range.
The FFT, although doesn't hold a candle to a proper SA, benefits a lot from the extra bits. Analysis of distortion in waveforms, or looking at an input and output signal from simple opamp amplifier or filter to check integrity... etc.
General measurements accuracy is also more reliable.

Maybe some of these things aren't really that important, or there isn't that much difference, and I will learn that with time.
Right now it seems to me that a proper 12 bit oscilloscope with good low noise front-end, can help in filling the gaps left by not being able to afford proper specialized equipment. And that is more relevant for a beginner or hobbyist.

Certainly, Rigol analytical capabilities are not up to par with Siglent scopes, but if interfacing with the computer is as good as some have said in this forum, you can have all the analysis you want. It's not as convenient or hassle free, but if your needs for advanced math are few and far between, it can still be a good option.

That is what I think, but I might be mistaken. I haven't used any Rigol or Siglent gear yet, but hopefully I will SOONtm
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 11:52:10 pm by Antonio90 »
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #117 on: November 29, 2023, 11:09:03 pm »
Rigol developped its own, and it probably did cost a lot, but maybe the manufacturing costs are similar to 8 bit ones.

ASICs are expensive to design, cheap to manufacture. probably cheaper than buying an 8-bit ADC from somebody else.

The question is how do they intend to get the R&D investment back.

I'm betting they're selling a LOT of DHO800/DHO900 models right now.

I'd also bet that Siglent can't respond to Rigol at anything like the same price. They already seem to be dumping the 1000HD series in panic and copying Rigol's "800" model with the announcement in this thread.

The real question is: How will Siglent get back the R&D they did on the 1000HD series?
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #118 on: November 29, 2023, 11:12:20 pm »
Quote
They already seem to be dumping the 1000HD series in panic and copying Rigol's "800" model with the announcement in this thread.

 :-DD

That was a good one.
 
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Offline Antonio90

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #119 on: November 29, 2023, 11:14:25 pm »
Rigol developped its own, and it probably did cost a lot, but maybe the manufacturing costs are similar to 8 bit ones.

ASICs are expensive to design, cheap to manufacture. probably cheaper than buying an 8-bit ADC from somebody else.

The question is how do they intend to get the R&D investment back.

I'm betting they're selling a LOT of DHO800/DHO900 models right now.

I'd also bet that Siglent can't respond to Rigol at anything like the same price. They already seem to be dumping the 1000HD series in panic and copying Rigol's "800" model with the announcement in this thread.

The real question is: How will Siglent get back the R&D they did on the 1000HD series?
My guess is that it will be released anyway. At the original DHO1000 price it would be a pretty good buy still, and maybe there isn't really that much to recover if the platform is the same as the 2000X-HD.
But yeah, Rigol still has a lot of time to recover the investment. I'm quite curious to see the 2000 series if/when they come out.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #120 on: November 29, 2023, 11:15:17 pm »
That was a good one.

Rigol is also dumping their 1000HD series with huge discounts. I'm guessing the $400 DHO800 is eating its lunch.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #121 on: November 29, 2023, 11:53:27 pm »

[...]12Bit scopes are not some magic by virtue of 12bits alone.

If you have 12 bit scope (with low noise that must accompany it)  that has same functions and capabilities as old 8 bit one, you will have exactly the same capabilities as before.  You won't be able to do anything new with it, except the small signal stuff, that will be  obviously better....[...]

I'm a beginner but, aren't 12 bit scopes actually quite a bit better in some regards? Even more for a beginner.

For example, basic substraction of waveforms, to get "differential" measurements. It's not nearly as good as a differential probe, but 12 bits (with low noise) improve them a lot and I've used that a few times.

Also, it's much better for analysis of transients or unexpected glitches, as you can zoom in with a lot more detail, and can also capture "bigger" signals with the improved dynamic range.
The FFT, although doesn't hold a candle to a proper SA, benefits a lot from the extra bits. Analysis of distortion in waveforms, or looking at an input and output signal from simple opamp amplifier or filter to check integrity... etc.
General measurements accuracy is also more reliable.


Certainly, Rigol analytical capabilities are not up to par with Siglent scopes, but if interfacing with the computer is as good as some have said in this forum, you can have all the analysis you want. It's not as convenient or hassle free, but if your needs for advanced math are few and far between, it can still be a good option.


Subtraction of channels even with 12 bit scopes is very bad compared to diff probes.
Glitches "live" in time domain. For better glitch capture you need more BW and sampling rate.
FFT might benefit from 12 bit but it needs to be made right.
When I said DHO800 is basic scope it meant it has nothing of advanced measurements. No advanced math, no distortion measurements etc.  General measurement accuracy will depend on implementation.

As for interfacing with computer, that is different thing. I don't have time to spend thousands of € worth of time to develop something I could have bought for few hundred € already built in in scope.
For instance, Bode plot as implemented in Siglent is something that I have been hearing for years by different people how they don't need it and they will simply develop it themselves.
No luck so far.

Some people do specific analysis by definition and they only need a scope as a sampler. I would presume DHO800 would do that job fine within it's specification.
 
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #122 on: November 29, 2023, 11:56:51 pm »
That was a good one.

Rigol is also dumping their 1000HD series with huge discounts. I'm guessing the $400 DHO800 is eating its lunch.

They are already dumping the one that Ebastler keeps repeating it's a shame it was not released yet...

No more mushrooms for you!!!  :-DD
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #123 on: November 30, 2023, 05:00:33 am »

1
They already seem to be dumping the 1000HD series in panic and copying Rigol's "800" model with the announcement in this thread.

2
The real question is: How will Siglent get back the R&D they did on the 1000HD series?

1) Total bullshit. Copying Rigol...  :-DD ... they are not idiots. And secondly: you don't know a damn thing about what time the 800X HD was put to under development work in the product development lab. You do not know which one did it first. If look Rigol 800 looks like it have take to markets when development work was not ready... perhaps due to panic after they perhaps hit what Siglent is doing in dark room. 
 
...also reading your posts it looks like you are panicking - why? Why have you been so extraordinarily interested in Siglent for many years, but afaik you have never owned one. On the other hand, what would you even use them for. Decorations can get cheaper.


2)  Answer is very simple. Selling SDS1000X HD.
And it IS good, oh... it is better than good. It is damn good model in its class!

« Last Edit: November 30, 2023, 05:02:22 am by rf-loop »
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Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 
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Offline core

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Re: Siglent SDS800X HD 12 bit DSO's coming
« Reply #124 on: November 30, 2023, 07:52:57 am »
that in this blog the activity regarding this scope is almost already dead. Nobody wants to hack it  :-DD

We have a saying that goes like this: "Ignorance is half way to happiness."

Very interesting info. Thanks !
 


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