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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: rf-loop on October 14, 2015, 02:02:53 pm

Title: Siglent SSA3000X and SSA3000X-Plus Spectrum Analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 14, 2015, 02:02:53 pm
Preliminary, coming in the near future. Siglent new Spectrum analyzer serie is SSA3000X 

There is 9kHz - 2.1GHz and 9kHz - 3.2GHz models with and without tracking generator.

Min RBW 10Hz
DANL -161 dBm/Hz
Full freq range tracking gen. (2.1 or 3.2GHz) in SSA3000X-TG models
10.1"  1024x600 TFT

Some optional features and accessories.

My rough estimate about prices is ~6k$  -  <12k$   depending model without optionals.  So it is not targeted  for low end hobby markets "spectrum analyzer".  Are there also coming some cheap model for bottom entry level.... I have not seen any signs.  Price estimate was derived from some chinese sides before product was really launched.

---------------------------------------------------------
EDIT/ADD: As we all know today, prices are totally in different class what was preliminary quessing.



Dave J.  have done nice tear down video + some compare.

https://youtu.be/-8fr_otW0q4 (https://youtu.be/-8fr_otW0q4)     Teardown   (very good! )
https://youtu.be/gkLciTsjGZg (https://youtu.be/gkLciTsjGZg)      Siglent SSA3021X vs Rigol DSA815

Today we have get also TheSignalPath (http://thesignalpath.com/blogs/)  well done Teardown-Review
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3032x-9khz-3-2ghz-spectrum-analyzer-review-teardown-experiments/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3032x-9khz-3-2ghz-spectrum-analyzer-review-teardown-experiments/)

https://youtu.be/Fn7uaEVeOPk (https://youtu.be/Fn7uaEVeOPk)     

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on October 14, 2015, 05:28:07 pm
Preliminary, coming in the near future. Siglent new Spectrum analyzer serie is SSA3000X

There is 9kHz - 2.1GHz and 9kHz - 3.2GHz models with and without tracking generator.

The UI looks certainly nice, as does the external design. The specs aren't really exciting, though:

ftp://www.siglent.com/www/Uploadfile/File/20150930/SSA3000X_datasheet.pdf (http://ftp://www.siglent.com/www/Uploadfile/File/20150930/SSA3000X_datasheet.pdf)

RBW: 10Hz to 1MHz

Frequency resolution: 1 Hz

Internal Reference:
Reference frequency accuracy: <0.2 ppm
Temperature stability: <1 ppm, 0 ? 5
Frequency aging rate: <0.5 ppm / first year, 3.0 ppm / 20 years

Phase Noise:
<-95 DBc / Hz @ 10 kHz offset, <-98 dBc / Hz (typ)
<-96 DBc / Hz @ 100 kHz offset, <- 97 dBc / Hz (typ)
<-115 DBc / Hz @ 1 MHz offset, <-117 dBc / Hz (typ)

Distortion and spurious response:
Second Harmonic Distortion (fc ? 50 MHz, the mixer level -30 dBm, input attenuation 0 dB, the preamplifier off, 20 ? to 30 ?): -65 DBc
Third order intercept point (fc ? 50 MHz, two-tone input level -20 dBm, frequency spacing 100 kHz, the input attenuation 0 dB, the preamplifier off, 20 ? to 30 ?): +10 DBm
1 dB gain compression (fc ? 50 MHz, the input attenuation 0 dB, the preamplifier off, 20 ? to 30 ?): > -5 DBm, nominal value

Scan Points: 751


Quote
My rough estimate about prices is ~6k$  -  <12k$   depending model without optionals.

If that's true then this is pretty expensive, considering that the 3GHz Rohde & Schwarz FSC (which has comparable specs) starts at below $6k, and that is from a big reputable brand.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: klaus11 on October 14, 2015, 06:13:19 pm
nice video! 

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM1NzgwMjA4OA==.html (http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTM1NzgwMjA4OA==.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on October 14, 2015, 10:18:00 pm
Preliminary, coming in the near future. Siglent new Spectrum analyzer serie is SSA3000X  ...................

Nice to see a decent image, I had heard whispers of a new SA.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on October 15, 2015, 10:35:50 am
The price does seem a bit off. Considering there are a bunch of "name brand" SA's you can get for that with equal or better specs. IMHO though, it's a really nice looking unit! (Except that ugly logo)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on December 03, 2015, 09:32:28 pm
Which ugly logo? I personally think Siglent is a nice name, and the logo looks pretty neat as well!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dr.diesel on December 06, 2015, 09:01:19 pm
My rough estimate about prices is ~6k$  -  <12k$   depending model without optionals. 

This really seems like an odd exit out of the value low end T&M gear section.  IMO one would start with high quality fuller feature DMMs and "easier" equipment before jumping into the mid range SA market.

It would take some serious reviews and a 1-2 year delay before I'd buy a $12k Siglent SA.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on December 23, 2015, 07:12:20 am
Full specs and pricing are now available on Siglent websites:

http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227)

Datasheet:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SSA3000X_DataSheet.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SSA3000X_DataSheet.pdf)



Edit
Add active link to datasheet.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: awallin on December 23, 2015, 07:33:01 am
Full specs and pricing are now available on Siglent websites:

http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227)

so those initial price estimates were only off by a factor of 4 or so...  :-DD

in that price range the direct competitors are Rigol DSA815/1030, maybe also Hameg HMS-X,  something else?

google-spreadsheet for comparisons anyone?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on December 23, 2015, 08:13:55 am
Full specs and pricing are now available on Siglent websites:

http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227)

so those initial price estimates were only off by a factor of 4 or so...  :-DD

in that price range the direct competitors are Rigol DSA815/1030, maybe also Hameg HMS-X,  something else?

google-spreadsheet for comparisons anyone?
Comparison chart attached.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=189018)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on December 23, 2015, 11:02:35 am

so those initial price estimates were only off by a factor of 4 or so...  :-DD


Yes. ;)


 (but still based to some facts.   (if I remember right perhaps to some older price info...)

All we know that prices in China are not cheap and if prices continue 10-20% rising per year (and some prices even more)... 

But in this attached img, these are current (from Siglent web sides, china)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EV on December 23, 2015, 12:39:24 pm
Prices in EU:
http://www.siglent.eu/spectrum-analyzers.html (http://www.siglent.eu/spectrum-analyzers.html)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: H.O on December 23, 2015, 12:58:38 pm
What?
According to this exchange rate (http://www.xe.com/currencyconverter/convert/?Amount=1&From=EUR&To=CNY) site there's 7.07CNY to one Euro. At CNY56800 for the 3032X that would put it at around €8000, yet it's "only" €3000 in Europe. Am I using the wrong currency?

European site doesn't list the -TG option but if the 3032X is Y56600 or €3000 could we expect the -TG be around €3000/Y56800*Y66800=€3500?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EV on December 23, 2015, 01:55:09 pm
Tg option is here:
http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1111/s/siglent-tg-ssa3000x-tracking-generator-license/category/98/ (http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1111/s/siglent-tg-ssa3000x-tracking-generator-license/category/98/)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: H.O on December 23, 2015, 02:21:31 pm
Thanks, €169 makes it a no-brainer of course AND makes the chinese prices even more confusing.....Y10000 difference translates into €169....
Not that I could really justify the cost but it does put "a bit" of pressure on Rigol with their DSA-832TG which is twice the price when you include the pre-amp so for those that CAN justify it looks like a pretty good deal.

I hope they put one in the hands of Shahriar for review and teardown.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: awallin on December 23, 2015, 08:00:23 pm

Not that I am buying an SA anytime soon, but I entered some info into a spreadsheet anyway
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yijOHnEqQ5ffkcK3lZFgzSga9HShgZcXY4gEWarSnQI/edit?usp=sharing
(PM me if you want to edit it!)
USB, Ethernet, GPIB, etc. connectivity would be good info to add.

Hameg HMS-X doesn't look great on specs, unless you need the small size, fanless design etc.

In general DANL numbers are all over the place, a bit like fuel consumption on cars - would be better to only trust measurements done by an independent third party not the manufacturer datasheet.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on December 23, 2015, 08:25:22 pm

Not that I am buying an SA anytime soon, but I entered some info into a spreadsheet anyway
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yijOHnEqQ5ffkcK3lZFgzSga9HShgZcXY4gEWarSnQI/edit?usp=sharing (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yijOHnEqQ5ffkcK3lZFgzSga9HShgZcXY4gEWarSnQI/edit?usp=sharing)
(PM me if you want to edit it!)
USB, Ethernet, GPIB, etc. connectivity would be good info to add.

Hameg HMS-X doesn't look great on specs, unless you need the small size, fanless design etc.

In general DANL numbers are all over the place, a bit like fuel consumption on cars - would be better to only trust measurements done by an independent third party not the manufacturer datasheet.
Nice. thanks for that, it will useful for all.  :-+

BTW
Many confuse Siglent EU (distributor)  with http://www.siglenteu.com/ the latter being the real Siglent branch in Hamburg. All official Siglent websites differ only in contact details and pricing.
However ATM both sites show the same pricing.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nowlan on December 24, 2015, 04:49:26 am
Looking forward the reviews.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on January 11, 2016, 01:55:20 pm
Tg option is here:
http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1111/s/siglent-tg-ssa3000x-tracking-generator-license/category/98/ (http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1111/s/siglent-tg-ssa3000x-tracking-generator-license/category/98/)

That option sounds like a mere softtware licence key, does it mean that the instrument come anyway with TG HW installed and it's only matter to activate it, even after the purchase ?

On the paper this SA sounds like a winner against Rigol DSA815-TG, among other things 2.1Ghz covering range against 1.5Ghz means the you can use it for L-Band GPS & Inmarsat LNA & Antenna stuff.

The only concer is the build quality and FW support, for the first ascpect i fear it will be far inferior to Rigol.

Am i wrong ?

Anyway, someone found any test, review, "interior photo" or usage video other than Siglent "trailer".

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on January 11, 2016, 08:01:18 pm
That option sounds like a mere software licence key, does it mean that the instrument come anyway with TG HW installed and it's only matter to activate it, even after the purchase ?
Yes, this appears to be the case......so stated on the Siglent websites:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1562&id=1546&tid=227&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1562&id=1546&tid=227&T=2)

On my pricelist, TG has separate pricing and if required would be added to the base model pricing.

It's likely the units SN# and ID# would be sent to Siglent for the TG enable codes if purchased without TG, in much the same way as available options are enabled after purchase in the Siglent range of DSO's.

Quote
Anyway, someone found any test, review, "interior photo" or usage video other than Siglent "trailer".
These units have been released for not yet a month and there's been internal discussion of upcoming external reviews, all one can say is it is a job for an experienced reviewer and also not a job that takes 10 minutes to do properly.
Watch this space.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on January 11, 2016, 10:58:55 pm
These units have been released for not yet a month and there's been internal discussion of upcoming external reviews, all one can say is it is a job for an experienced reviewer and also not a job that takes 10 minutes to do properly.
Watch this space.  ;)

Sure i will do.

For my needing at the moment would be enough a simple video showing basic task like a filter curve tracing,  some GUI iteration, maybe a shot inside, just to get a short glimpse about build quality and decide if it's the case to wait for serious reviews and not to go with Rigol right now.

Any hidden owner of this SA is advised ;-)

What attracts me over DSA815 is the superior frequency coverage, 2.1 Ghz means that it comes in handy for L-Band GPS and Inmarsat LNAs & Antennas.

Anyway, if really this instrument is on the market since one month, the complete absence of any sort of photo / video document on the WWW seems quite strange.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2016, 08:15:23 am
FW update released:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=3615&tid=15 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=3615&tid=15)

Changelog included.  :clap:

Edit
EasySpectrum software package too:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=3616&tid=14 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=3616&tid=14)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 02, 2016, 08:48:54 am
Any review out there ?

Those SA, together new 2000X DSO lineup are like ghosts ...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on March 02, 2016, 09:08:52 am
Any review out there ?

Those SA, together new 2000X DSO lineup are like ghosts ...
My take on that: all ham amateurs and developers working on a small buget did purchase a DSA815 in the past (given a need of a SA), so this market is saturated. Now it will take much longer to bring a reasonable amount of SA devices into the market.
If I would be the marketing manager at Siglent, I would leak a hack to activate all features .... THEN the sales will boost and the coverage of the device will be everywhere. Cheapest way to gain market share and positive brand awareness.
The task for gaining negative brand awareness has already been fulfilled (google "Siglent wrongful trademark claim") by Siglent :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 02, 2016, 09:35:11 am
An instrument  sample sent to Dave for a review / tear-down would come in handy to promote those new lines.
Recently the Siglent SSA3032X appeared as "available ready to ship" from Batronix (Germany), so they actually exist ....
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2016, 09:58:14 am
An instrument  sample sent to Dave for a review / tear-down would come in handy to promote those new lines.
Recently the Siglent SSA3032X appeared as "available ready to ship" from Batronix (Germany), so they actually exist ....
You bet they do. I do know they've had to do some tweaks but AFAIK they're nearly finished those and I'll probably get a demo unit in my next shipment. The worry is; how many other accessories will I need as well?  :scared:
Near field probe set, cabling, waveguides, it's terrifying.
It'll be a new learning curve.......
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nowlan on March 02, 2016, 10:13:04 am
Had hoped that Allan/w2aew (or is he only tektronix now?)  or Signal path would get demo units.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on March 02, 2016, 10:36:41 am
The worry is; how many other accessories will I need as well?  :scared:

Decent cables with BNC and SMA quality connectors; high quality RG58 C/U as a bare minimum, RG223 or RG400 are much preferable. You need a really good shielding in order to make use of the dynamic range of a decent SA.

Bunch of adaptors SMA/BNC, BNC/N ...

DC block to protect the SA input

Couple of fixed attenuators, a set of 3/6/10/20dB will be handy, but is hard to obtain with BNC for bandwidths >1GHz, so you'll probably have to go for SMA, hence you need the adaptors...

Couple of 50 ohm dummy loads for BNC/SMA

Wideband power splitter/combiner

Optional: Directional coupler

And most importantly: two decent RF signal generators.
At least one of them should provide good phase noise performance.
The 2nd generator together with the power combiner is needed for IM tests in order to determine the 2nd/3rd order dynamic ranges...

You certainly won't need a waveguide for frequencies up to 2GHz...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2016, 01:36:32 pm
An instrument  sample sent to Dave for a review / tear-down would come in handy to promote those new lines.
Recently the Siglent SSA3032X appeared as "available ready to ship" from Batronix (Germany), so they actually exist ....
You bet they do. I do know they've had to do some tweaks but AFAIK they're nearly finished those and I'll probably get a demo unit in my next shipment. The worry is; how many other accessories will I need as well?  :scared:
Just a piece of wire to use as an antenna and you can look & listen at radio stations. One of the interns I coached needed a spectrum analyser for his project but he mostly used it to listen to the radio  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 02, 2016, 01:43:32 pm
There will be at least one review coming that I know of but I am guessing it will be in May at the earliest.

There is a new software program for the SSA3000X's called EasySpectrum. I have used it briefly on several occasions and it has some nice features. EasySpectrum has 3 basic modes of operations:

1) A virtual front panel program with the ability to control multiple spectrum analyzers.

2) An EMI program for pre-compliance testing that mimics much more expensive EMI receivers used at certification labs. It also significantly speeds up these typically slow measurements - when using the quasi-peak detector - by jumping to a zero span mode when a peak response is reached during a scan. I have seen it speed up a quasi-peak detector-based EMI measurement from hours down to a few minutes.

3) A SCPI command remote control routine for sending and receiving SCPI commands to the spectrum analyzer for testing and debugging.

EasySpectrum can be found and downloaded here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1546&tid=227&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=1546&tid=227&T=2)

You will need to first download one of the NI Visa drivers such as V5.4.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 02, 2016, 03:58:53 pm
There will be at least one review coming that I know of but I am guessing it will be in May at the earliest.

Mmmh, seems running quite late, in the meanwhile i would not expect those things fly off the shelves without something more than youtube marketing video clips and downloadable docs ... :(
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 02, 2016, 04:10:31 pm
Our introduction has been rather slow. We made some improvements to the TG flatness which has slowed it down. That is part of the reason behind the late review.
One of the EMI magazine editors told me last week he was about to begin his review.

We will try to make several application videos here in the USA and post them to YouTube.

The manual and datasheet are on the SiglentAmerica website but it appears to have a problem today. I will check on that.
You can download the documents on the corporate website at
http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=1299&tid=18&T=2 (http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-wd.aspx?id=1299&tid=18&T=2)

It's rather slow, at least here in the USA. I will check on our Documents page for the SSA3000X.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheSteve on March 02, 2016, 06:16:35 pm
Please consider sending one to the Signal Path as previously mentioned as Shahriar is one of the few reviewers who will really "test" the machine and not just show us some signals.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 02, 2016, 06:29:37 pm
Please consider sending one to the Signal Path as previously mentioned as Shahriar is one of the few reviewers who will really "test" the machine and not just show us some signals.
I couldn't possibly confirm Shahriar will be getting one to review, it's not my place to do so.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 02, 2016, 06:32:47 pm
Please consider sending one to the Signal Path as previously mentioned as Shahriar is one of the few reviewers who will really "test" the machine and not just show us some signals.
I second this because a spectrum analyser isn't easy to test properly! But I'm afraid it won't happen because the firmware likely takes at least two years to get to a useful state as we have seen with all previous Siglent equipment.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 02, 2016, 08:19:46 pm
I second this because a spectrum analyser isn't easy to test properly! But I'm afraid it won't happen because the firmware likely takes at least two years to get to a useful state as we have seen with all previous Siglent equipment.

You think the SDS2000 firmware is already in a useful state?  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on March 11, 2016, 06:26:08 am
Anyone have any experience with these yet?  I'm in need of a basic SA and a little lunchbox like the SSA3021X would be perfect...  But I'm not sure I want to be the first to try the waters on this one.  On paper the specs look like a step up from the Rigol DSA815 an the nice big screen looks fantastic.  I'd get it with the tracking gen, and for my needs amplitude accuracy isn't a huge deal.  I'm looking at characterizing some RF circuitry and can easily normalize for the test setup(s).  More looking at DUT response than weak radio signals and I'll be using attenuators more than amplifiers (although one of my DUTs is in fact an experimental wideband RF amplifier).  Maybe some very basic EMI sanity checking.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 11, 2016, 09:03:41 pm
But I'm not sure I want to be the first to try the waters on this one. 

Sooner or later someone will have to do it  ;D

Anyway i'm wondering if :

Our introduction has been rather slow. We made some improvements to the TG flatness which has slowed it down.

imply substantial TG hardware changes and if there is a way to be assured to get definitive design version.

AFAIK it was declared as "available" in some webshops a lot of time ago ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bob S on March 12, 2016, 12:55:22 am
Has anyone tried calling Siglent or a rep? I have to order a SA next week and would like to get any information I can. It will be purchasing by a customer and only be used by me for a specific job but I may end up with it. I did another job in which I had to purchased the DSA815 for a customer and it worked okay but I would like to try the Siglent this time if I can get any positive feedback.  Lets keep this post going as I think a lot of people may be interested in what is intended to be a very competitive piece of equipment.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 12, 2016, 09:44:03 am
Has anyone tried calling Siglent or a rep?

Maybe you can send a PM to "Siglent America" Eevblog poster and ask directly for what you need.

This 3ad is rather old and still we struggle to get anything related to those SA, only docs, datasheet and marketing presentation.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 13, 2016, 09:32:21 am
Has anyone tried calling Siglent or a rep? I have to order a SA next week and would like to get any information I can. It will be purchasing by a customer and only be used by me for a specific job but I may end up with it. I did another job in which I had to purchased the DSA815 for a customer and it worked okay but I would like to try the Siglent this time if I can get any positive feedback.

You should ask yourself if you can afford to spend the money on something which very well could turn out to be another SDS2000, i.e. a product that is thrown on the market so full of bugs as to being useless. Not sure if that is what you want to present to a customer.

Quote
Lets keep this post going as I think a lot of people may be interested in what is intended to be a very competitive piece of equipment.

For SAs there are lots of options out there, new and used. Even more so if you don't need a tracking generator.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rfboy on March 13, 2016, 02:43:41 pm

i hope, rigol will respond to the new market situation with a free "bandwith upgrade" via firmware for DSA815...  8)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 13, 2016, 08:40:05 pm

i hope, rigol will respond to the new market situation with a free "bandwith upgrade" via firmware for DSA815...  8)

The new market situation is still unknown ...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: CustomEngineerer on March 14, 2016, 05:49:58 am

i hope, rigol will respond to the new market situation with a free "bandwith upgrade" via firmware for DSA815...  8)

Thats not going to happen.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 14, 2016, 06:57:12 pm
Greetings.

The SSA3000X spectrum analyzers are selling and they are shipping. The flatness of the TG is perfectly usable in most applications. It has some ringing as you approach the upper end on the 3.2 GHz model (SSA3032X). This can be subtracted out easily using the Normalize function in 1-2 keystrokes. We wanted to improve the design so we did make some changes. The improved version has a very flat TG over the entire range - at least the one I saw at the factory did. Last I heard, we were looking at late April for the new design to begin shipping.
The current version cannot be retrofitted to become the new version. The PCBs are different.

If you would like to see any particular screen shots then please let me know. I will take a shot of the TG across the full 9 KHz - 3.2 GHz (SSA3032X) or 9 KHz - 2.1 GHz (SSA3021X) if you like.

Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 14, 2016, 08:18:31 pm
Is there any way to see if the SA has the improved TG or not? Model number? Serial number?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 14, 2016, 08:29:46 pm
Is there any way to see if the SA has the improved TG or not? Model number? Serial number?

I don't yet know but I will know soon. There had originally been talk of a different model number but that has not been confirmed to me yet.
I will check with the factory and let you know.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bob S on March 15, 2016, 12:44:31 am
I spoke with one of Siglent's local US distributors today and I was told that he has yet to sell a single unit. Lead time is ~ 1 week so they do sound available. I told him I was concerned about a new design and no return policy and nothing was offering to settle this concern. He even recommended I stay with Rigol (having used them in the past). I think if Siglent is going to make any serious headway into this market, they should either get some serious unbiased reviews out there or offer a fair or at least comparable return policy to that of Rigol. I would still consider trying it but without a return path, I wont be the first to purchase one based solely on speculation. If Siglent is interested in having a first EEVblog review and is willing to cut me some return slack, let me know.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 15, 2016, 01:00:39 am
You couldn't get it on loan for evaluation at all? I'd try another distributor because IMHO you should be able to evaluate test equipment especially when it costs a couple of thousand dollars/euros.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 15, 2016, 01:14:09 am
I spoke with one of Siglent's local US distributors today and I was told that he has yet to sell a single unit. Lead time is ~ 1 week so they do sound available. I told him I was concerned about a new design and no return policy and nothing was offering to settle this concern. He even recommended I stay with Rigol (having used them in the past). I think if Siglent is going to make any serious headway into this market, they should either get some serious unbiased reviews out there or offer a fair or at least comparable return policy to that of Rigol. I would still consider trying it but without a return path, I wont be the first to purchase one based solely on speculation. If Siglent is interested in having a first EEVblog review and is willing to cut me some return slack, let me know.
See reply #33

As Steve has indicated the TG is being tweaked for better performance, I've also been told next month until the tweaked series are available and they're likely to be identifiable with a factory code as part of the SN #.


From a famous movie: Patience Grasshopper's.  :)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 15, 2016, 01:39:08 am

If you would like to see any particular screen shots then please let me know. I will take a shot of the TG across the full 9 KHz - 3.2 GHz (SSA3032X) or 9 KHz - 2.1 GHz (SSA3021X) if you like.

Steve

Hi Steve,

it would be nice to see a video that shows scan speed / dynamic range with different RBW settings.

Is also the 2.1Ghz version (SSA3021X) interested by new PCB revision issue ?   
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 15, 2016, 12:14:07 pm

If you would like to see any particular screen shots then please let me know. I will take a shot of the TG across the full 9 KHz - 3.2 GHz (SSA3032X) or 9 KHz - 2.1 GHz (SSA3021X) if you like.

Steve

Hi Steve,

it would be nice to see a video that shows scan speed / dynamic range with different RBW settings.

Is also the 2.1Ghz version (SSA3021X) interested by new PCB revision issue ?

Hello, Markone.

We will be happy to run some curves and post them here. However, the sweep speed and RBW are both tied to the size of the range you are sweeping. So unless you have a specific sweep range you want us to use we'll use say .1 or 1 MHz every time and then vary the RBW setting - which will automatically set the and sweep speed and change the noise floor. The settings are coupled together (along with the Video Bandwidth) to maintain amplitude calibration but any of the settings can be manually overridden.

The 2.1 GHz version will have the same TG upgrade as the 3.2 GHz version. Of course, it will have the narrower sweep range.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 15, 2016, 12:18:45 pm
Is there any way to see if the SA has the improved TG or not? Model number? Serial number?

The new TG versions will keep the same model numbers and price. We will know which version any given unit is by the serial number, which we can help you with at that time if you want to know.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 15, 2016, 12:27:59 pm
You couldn't get it on loan for evaluation at all? I'd try another distributor because IMHO you should be able to evaluate test equipment especially when it costs a couple of thousand dollars/euros.

Hi Bob S,

Third party reviews will be coming some time after the end of April, when the new TG is out.

Did you contact a North American distributor? All authorized NA distributors do have a 30-day return policy. If you would contact us at
info@Siglent.com
then we will try to find out what happened on this distributor.

I would like to know who told you the spectrum analyzer could not be returned, at least if they were a North American distributor. All of our North American distributors should know this.
Thanks.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 15, 2016, 12:55:36 pm
However, the sweep speed and RBW are both tied to the size of the range you are sweeping.

Yes, of course.

Like many other, i would like to see if it's faster than Rigol DSA815, but right now i do not have any specific request for sweep parameters, maybe some Rigol SA owner could suggest some instrument setup for the purpose.

If i recall correctly the maximun refresh rate for DSA815 is 5/s, so a video showing Siglent SA max refresh rate (small span & large RBW) could be a good start point.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 15, 2016, 05:31:22 pm
I ran some curves but I guess Markone wanted to see some large RBW settings with smaller spans. I'll try to get some of those posted later.

I ran a 100 MHz sine wave from a SDG2122X generator. CW mode. About -30 dBm directly into the SSA3021X Spectrum analyzer. All photos were made using a 1 MHz  frequency span and I varied the RBW setting. You will note The Sweep Time (SWT) in the lower right hand corner of the screen. You will also notice that in the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th photos the text "FFT" appears on the left hand side of the screen. This does not mean that the spectrum analyzer has jumped from a swept mode to an FFT mode. What is is telling us is that the internal FFT mode that we use in longer / slower sweeps is in operation. I do't know the exact technical method the analyzer is using beyond the fact that we use this to speed things up. This mode helps to speed up slower sweeps when using low RBWs and/or large spans:

1) RBW = 30 KHz
2) RBW = 3 KHz
3) RBW = 300 Hz
4) RBW = 10 Hz
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 15, 2016, 07:07:06 pm
@Steve: Thanks for the screenshots  :-+

Not sure using a SDG2122X as a source is a good idea, as it's RF performance is pretty poor (like most AWGs), and probably makes the SSA3000X look worse than it is. I assume you have access to a proper RF generator? If so, could you please do another test, this time from a RF generator connected via appropriate cables:

- Input signal 60MHz -10dBm
- Center freq 60Mhz
- Span 2kHz
- RBW 10Hz, VBW 10Hz

And maybe repeat that at 1GHz, 2GHz and 2.5GHz?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 15, 2016, 07:28:42 pm
We don't have an RF generator in this office so we used the SDG2122X.

Markone requested several screen shots with a larger RBW and small scan so I will run those for him next.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 15, 2016, 07:57:50 pm
We don't have an RF generator in this office so we used the SDG2122X.

I see. What a shame.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 16, 2016, 01:08:47 am
I ran some curves but I guess Markone wanted to see some large RBW settings with smaller spans. I'll try to get some of those posted later.

Hi Steve,

many thanks for your attention, i have taken note of sweeping times and noise floor level.

If you can, pls repeat the 4th (RBW 10Hz) increasing signal level to -20dBm.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 17, 2016, 04:53:46 pm
I ran some curves but I guess Markone wanted to see some large RBW settings with smaller spans. I'll try to get some of those posted later.

Hi Steve,

many thanks for your attention, i have taken note of sweeping times and noise floor level.

If you can, pls repeat the 4th (RBW 10Hz) increasing signal level to -20dBm.


Markone,

I ran the same trace with a -20 dBm signal, as you requested. Please see attached.

Also you had asked about sweep times at some larger RBW settings and at some smaller spans.  i did run the following:

100 MHz CW signal at a 100 KHz span setting.

* RBW = 10 KHz.  Sweep time = 1.834 ms

* RBW = 3 KHz.    Sweep time = 8.532 ms

* RBW = 1 KHz.    Sweep time = 19.388 ms

Note: The SSA3032X used the FFT mode in all three cases.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 18, 2016, 12:58:44 pm
I ran the same trace with a -20 dBm signal, as you requested. Please see attached.

Note: The SSA3032X used the FFT mode in all three cases.

Steve

Thankls a lot Steve, so far so good, scan speed wise the instrument seems promising, of course we expect a complete reeview asap ;-)
 
Now the main problem is that a potential buyer (like me) has to wait for the new HW revision issue.

One obvious question : up to what SPAN width FFT mode is supported ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: mairomaster on March 22, 2016, 01:13:35 pm
Hi guys,

I have been using SSA3021X for about two weeks now.

Initially, after a day of use, the firmware froze and the unit was refusing to start. From customer support they sent me a firmware image and instructions, so I can re-flash the firmware, but that didn't help. I needed to ship the unit back so they can fix it.

After they send me the unit back (apparently they needed to flash some different firmware) it was working all good. However, the firmware (I believe the latest version) has lots of bugs. Just to name a few:

- A memory stick (used to transfer screenshots for example) cannot be mounted reliably. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
- After you save some files (limits for example), they cannot be deleted in any way, even if they are not currently used. With screenshots for example that doesn't seem to be a problem.
- Screenshots cannot be saved reliably all the time. If you save a limit file for example and exit the menu, pressing save at any point after that (which normally saves a screenshot) will attempt re-saving the last limit file, without the option to change that.
- The screenshot save windows is visible in the middle of the screen on the saved screenshot. That way it covers a good amount of the spectrum.
- There doesn't seem to be a way to save waveforms.
- You can't create correction files from the menu. You can load correction files, but I don't see any way how to create them (even externally).
- After exiting EMI mode, some of the settings (bandwidth for example) are not remembered but restored to the default value. That could be quite annoying if you often need to switch to EMI mode and back.
- The current version of the user manual is not 100% related to the current version of the firmware. Some option are either different or missing.
- Many other small things.

I hope Siglent will fix the firmware soon, because it is a real pain to work with it in its current state.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 22, 2016, 01:33:29 pm
Hi guys,

I have been using SSA3021X for about two weeks now.


Mentioned bugs apart, how would you rate its RF performance (dynamic range, sweep speed, etc) ?

Which freq span does FFT mode support ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2016, 01:41:24 pm
Hi guys,

I have been using SSA3021X for about two weeks now.

Initially, after a day of use, the firmware froze and the unit was refusing to start. From customer support they sent me a firmware image and instructions, so I can re-flash the firmware, but that didn't help. I needed to ship the unit back so they can fix it.

I hope Siglent will fix the firmware soon, because it is a real pain to work with it in its current state.
You better return it because it will take Siglent at least 2 years to fix the bugs!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: mairomaster on March 22, 2016, 02:02:17 pm
I haven't used any other spectrum analyser before, so I can't really speak about its performance. It did an alright job for my purpose (EMC pre-compliance testing). I don't think you have control over the FFT mode. I noticed it switches on automatically in some rare occasions, when I am playing around with the range.

I might consider returning it (if that's an option since it has been used already), but the problem is that there is no other cheap analyser on the market, which goes to 2GHz (I need that range for the particular EMC tests I am doing).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2016, 02:13:15 pm
I haven't used any other spectrum analyser before, so I can't really speak about its performance. It did an alright job for my purpose (EMC pre-compliance testing). I don't think you have control over the FFT mode. I noticed it switches on automatically in some rare occasions, when I am playing around with the range.

I might consider returning it (if that's an option since it has been used already), but the problem is that there is no other cheap analyser on the market, which goes to 2GHz (I need that range for the particular EMC tests I am doing).
Get a second hand Advantest or a used spectrum analyser from another brand. There is a lot out there for sale (even with warranty)! AFAIK Siglent has a 30 day no hassle return policy.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 22, 2016, 03:21:31 pm
I might consider returning it (if that's an option since it has been used already), but the problem is that there is no other cheap analyser on the market, which goes to 2GHz (I need that range for the particular EMC tests I am doing).

In terms of SAs there are many options out there. Some of my smaller customers use R&S CMU200 test sets for EMC pre-compliance testing. They contain a spectrum analyzer up to 2.7GHz, plus you get one (or two, depending on the installed options) RF generator(s) on top of it. These test sets go somewhere between £500 and £900. They are proven and reliable, made by a manufacturer with a long track record in developing some of the best spectrum analyzers.

Another one uses an Agilent E7495B test set for the same purpose. They also go up to 2.7Ghz (2.5Ghz for the E7495A) and go for roughly similar money as the CMU200 and are portable, although the RF performance isn't as good in some areas as the CMU200). But they have other advantages, plus you not only get a RF generator but also a vector network analyzer (although without phase information).

As nctnico said, there are lots of options. For example, I just bought an 5yr old Anritsu 13Ghz SA for less than £1500 delivered. Pretty much looks like new.

Especially if you do that for a business I'd ask myself if I could live with investing money in some unproven B-brand kit that very well may turn out to be the next SDS2000 disaster (which is still ongoing as far as I know).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: mairomaster on March 22, 2016, 04:56:57 pm
^I've seen such units, but buying something old, second hand, without customer support has always seem somewhat dodgy to me. However, it might really turn out to be the better option.

What do you think is the drawback of buying such units, compared to new ones, produced recently? Is documentation readily available?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on March 22, 2016, 05:04:06 pm
Hi guys,

I have been using SSA3021X for about two weeks now.

Initially, after a day of use, the firmware froze and the unit was refusing to start. From customer support they sent me a firmware image and instructions, so I can re-flash the firmware, but that didn't help. I needed to ship the unit back so they can fix it.

After they send me the unit back (apparently they needed to flash some different firmware) it was working all good. However, the firmware (I believe the latest version) has lots of bugs. Just to name a few:

- A memory stick (used to transfer screenshots for example) cannot be mounted reliably. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.
- After you save some files (limits for example), they cannot be deleted in any way, even if they are not currently used. With screenshots for example that doesn't seem to be a problem.
- Screenshots cannot be saved reliably all the time. If you save a limit file for example and exit the menu, pressing save at any point after that (which normally saves a screenshot) will attempt re-saving the last limit file, without the option to change that.
- The screenshot save windows is visible in the middle of the screen on the saved screenshot. That way it covers a good amount of the spectrum.
- There doesn't seem to be a way to save waveforms.
- You can't create correction files from the menu. You can load correction files, but I don't see any way how to create them (even externally).
- After exiting EMI mode, some of the settings (bandwidth for example) are not remembered but restored to the default value. That could be quite annoying if you often need to switch to EMI mode and back.
- The current version of the user manual is not 100% related to the current version of the firmware. Some option are either different or missing.
- Many other small things.

I hope Siglent will fix the firmware soon, because it is a real pain to work with it in its current state.

It is good practise to tell also what is FW version together with this kind of reports.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 22, 2016, 05:15:38 pm
^I've seen such units, but buying something old, second hand, without customer support has always seem somewhat dodgy to me. However, it might really turn out to be the better option.

What do you think is the drawback of buying such units, compared to new ones, produced recently? Is documentation readily available?
Documentation (including service manuals) can often been found online or downloaded somewhere. If a unit is less than 10 years old I'd be surprised if you don't get proper support from the manufacturer. IMHO you can't go wrong with an HP/Agilent/Keysight unit where it comes to support but don't rule out Advantest either because of the close relationship with R&S. My Adventest R3131 SA even has 'R&S calibration void' stickers all over it and I bought it for a very reasonable price from an equipment dealer including a 1 year warranty.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: mairomaster on March 22, 2016, 05:30:31 pm
It is good practise to tell also what is FW version together with this kind of reports.

You are totally right, sorry. Here is all the system info:

SW1   100.01.02.07.01
SW2   20160226-2
SW3   000000C1
HW     04.03.00
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 22, 2016, 05:40:53 pm
^I've seen such units, but buying something old, second hand, without customer support has always seem somewhat dodgy to me. However, it might really turn out to be the better option.

What do you think is the drawback of buying such units, compared to new ones, produced recently? Is documentation readily available?

Well, I had Siglent gear, and I'm not sure their "support" is something to write home about to be honest. Pretty much everything has to go through their resellers which may or may not be helpful if you have a problem (they are all great until they have your money). If not then, well, tough luck I guess.

The only drawback of buying used I can see is the lack of warranty, but that can be overcome by buying from a seller that offers one, or (if you buy a newer unit) you can often just buy new warranty (often called a 'repair agreement') from the manufacturer.

The benefits however more than compensate for that in my opinion. You get more capable kit that is very likely a lot more mature than anything from the B-brands (just look at the Rigol DSA800, as far as I know it still has some issues), you usually also get proper service manuals (do you have a service manual for your Siglent? If not, how will your calibration provider calibrate that thing?). And even for older units you can get repairs and spares.

The best thing however is that you get a device you can rely on.

IMHO you can't go wrong with an HP/Agilent/Keysight unit where it comes to support but don't rule out Advantest either because of the close relationship with R&S.

Just be aware that this relationship ended a long time ago (IIRC around 2004), R&S now only sells their own spectrum analyzers (which in general also perform better than the Advantest ones, which already are good instruments). They still offer repair and calibration services, though.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on March 22, 2016, 11:59:34 pm
- The screenshot save windows is visible in the middle of the screen on the saved screenshot. That way it covers a good amount of the spectrum.
:palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 23, 2016, 02:04:46 pm


Well, I had Siglent gear, and I'm not sure their "support" is something to write home about to be honest. Pretty much everything has to go through their resellers which may or may not be helpful if you have a problem (they are all great until they have your money). If not then, well, tough luck I guess.

I don't now about Europe offhand but here in North America the customer can certainly obtain an RMA from us and send a warranty repair directly to Siglent in Ohio. No reseller needs to be involved unless a customer wants them to be.

Our goal is to repair any defective instrument within 10 days of receiving it. We take this goal very seriously.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bob S on March 24, 2016, 01:48:22 am
- The screenshot save windows is visible in the middle of the screen on the saved screenshot. That way it covers a good amount of the spectrum.
:palm:
I second that!  :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 24, 2016, 06:23:45 am
I don't now about Europe offhand but here in North America the customer can certainly obtain an RMA from us and send a warranty repair directly to Siglent in Ohio. No reseller needs to be involved unless a customer wants them to be.

Our goal is to repair any defective instrument within 10 days of receiving it. We take this goal very seriously.

That's good to hear (and Siglent should really do the same in Europe), but that covers the hardware only. What about firmware problems? I doubt they'll be fixed within 10 days.

- The screenshot save windows is visible in the middle of the screen on the saved screenshot. That way it covers a good amount of the spectrum.
:palm:
I second that!  :palm: :palm:

Which suggests it's pretty much the SDS2000 all over again - they clearly don't test their firmware (otherwise they would have found that bug), and relying on user feedback to find bugs, which may or may not get fixed at some indefinite point in the future.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: michael2 on March 25, 2016, 06:33:58 pm
 |O  WTF?  >:(

I own a Siglent SSA3021X for a few days. I made a firmware update to the actual 7.01 because I bought the TG option...

Here is a "screenshot"  of the tracking generator :--

Yellow trace is a selfmade BNC cable 1 meter, the pink one is bought "high quality" SMA cable 1 meter, too.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211893;image)

What a fail! :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 25, 2016, 06:50:53 pm
I don't now about Europe offhand but here in North America the customer can certainly obtain an RMA from us and send a warranty repair directly to Siglent in Ohio. No reseller needs to be involved unless a customer wants them to be.
Our goal is to repair any defective instrument within 10 days of receiving it. We take this goal very seriously.
That's good to hear (and Siglent should really do the same in Europe), but that covers the hardware only. What about firmware problems? I doubt they'll be fixed within 10 days.
You are truly evil! I already wrote a similar comment but choose not to click 'post'  >:D

Regarding the tracking generator: can someone verify that with a different spectrum analyser? It looks so bad that it must be a measurement error!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheSteve on March 25, 2016, 08:41:29 pm
I assume it can be normalized?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 25, 2016, 10:58:18 pm
Regarding the tracking generator: can someone verify that with a different spectrum analyser? It looks so bad that it must be a measurement error!

It's still within specs ;-)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211927;image)

Also Rigol's TG is not that brilliant ...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211929;image)

I wonder about the performance of incoming SSA3000X improved version.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on March 26, 2016, 12:38:57 am
Hmm, I think 1-2dB is fine.  But I'd like to see the output level calibrated to zero out the peaks, so it's consistently 0-1dB low instead of going high.  Just to avoid overloading external mixers and amplifiers in parts of the spectrum.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 26, 2016, 02:55:48 am
Hmm, I think 1-2dB is fine.  But I'd like to see the output level calibrated to zero out the peaks, so it's consistently 0-1dB low instead of going high.  Just to avoid overloading external mixers and amplifiers in parts of the spectrum.

Good point, in this regard we have also to add amplitude precision error margin : 0.7dB

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211999;image)

If not a full review at least it would be nice to see the this instrument "stressed" to main spec numbers, it would not require so much time ...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: michael2 on March 26, 2016, 09:32:06 am
Hmm, I think 1-2dB is fine. 

Yes, I think so, too. Because this is including 1 meter cable and two adapter from N to SMA.

But maybe I found an other issue, I would like to call it the "40 MHZ problem": I measure relatively high and sharp peaks (RBW 10 Hz) above DNL at 40 Mhz and harmonics, no matter if preamplifier on or off. Some harmonics are really bad, they are 10db above DNL. The critical frequencies are (Mhz):

40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240, 280, 520 (!!!), 560, 880, 960 (!!!), 1040 (!!!), 1120 (!!!), 1200, 1560 (!!!)

Frequencies marked with (!!!) are the really bad ones. Because this is my fist spectrum analyzer and I obviously have no EMC shielded room, I don't know if this tone are radiated into the analyzer or picked up internally.

 :-//

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 26, 2016, 10:36:16 am

40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240, 280, 520 (!!!), 560, 880, 960 (!!!), 1040 (!!!), 1120 (!!!), 1200, 1560 (!!!)

Frequencies marked with (!!!) are the really bad ones. Because this is my fist spectrum analyzer and I obviously have no EMC shielded room, I don't know if this tone are radiated into the analyzer or picked up internally.


Are you getting this with 50ohm termination on input ?

Can you show a screenshot and list all test conditions ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 26, 2016, 10:49:11 am
I don't now about Europe offhand but here in North America the customer can certainly obtain an RMA from us and send a warranty repair directly to Siglent in Ohio. No reseller needs to be involved unless a customer wants them to be.
Our goal is to repair any defective instrument within 10 days of receiving it. We take this goal very seriously.
That's good to hear (and Siglent should really do the same in Europe), but that covers the hardware only. What about firmware problems? I doubt they'll be fixed within 10 days.
You are truly evil!

I know   >:D

Quote
I already wrote a similar comment but choose not to click 'post'  >:D

 :)

Quote
Regarding the tracking generator: can someone verify that with a different spectrum analyser? It looks so bad that it must be a measurement error!

I agree, it looks way to bad for even a mediocre TG. People often forget that cables and adapters (and if they are clean and connected properly, i.e. not loose) can cause major errors.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on March 26, 2016, 10:54:18 am
But maybe I found an other issue, I would like to call it the "40 MHZ problem": I measure relatively high and sharp peaks (RBW 10 Hz) above DNL at 40 Mhz and harmonics, no matter if preamplifier on or off. Some harmonics are really bad, they are 10db above DNL. The critical frequencies are (Mhz):

40, 80, 120, 160, 200, 240, 280, 520 (!!!), 560, 880, 960 (!!!), 1040 (!!!), 1120 (!!!), 1200, 1560 (!!!)

Interesting. Can you provide a screenshot of the spectrum from say 10MHz to 1.8GHz, with a somewhat narrow RBW if possible?

Quote
Frequencies marked with (!!!) are the really bad ones. Because this is my fist spectrum analyzer and I obviously have no EMC shielded room, I don't know if this tone are radiated into the analyzer or picked up internally.

You don't need an EM shielded room, just put a N short or a 50 ohms N terminator on the input.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on March 26, 2016, 09:07:41 pm
One obvious question : up to what SPAN width FFT mode is supported ?
This is another interesting question that's worth investigating if someone with the instrument in their possession should find the time to do so. :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: michael2 on March 27, 2016, 03:24:00 pm
 ??? So I made some more experiments regarding the 40 MHz issue. It looks like that attenuator, input termination and pre amplifier have no influence on this issue. The peaks are practically the same high above the average noise.  Because in the current firmware (7.01) screenshots are broken, I didn't make some.

So, please can somebody check with these settings: Center 80 MHz, span 90 Mhz, RBW and VBW 100 Hz, attenuator 50 dBm, trace A maximum hold, trace B average 8 times, detector positive peak.

After 8 sweeps I got the following results:

Average noise: -60.5 dBm
Peak 40 MHz: -46.38 dBm
Peak 80 MHz: -54.80 dBm
Peak 120 MHz: -56.94 dBm

It would be nice if someone could check because I have to decide to return this unit or not.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 28, 2016, 11:37:19 am
So, please can somebody check with these settings: Center 80 MHz, span 90 Mhz, RBW and VBW 100 Hz, attenuator 50 dBm, trace A maximum hold, trace B average 8 times, detector positive peak.

After 8 sweeps I got the following results:

Average noise: -60.5 dBm
Peak 40 MHz: -46.38 dBm
Peak 80 MHz: -54.80 dBm
Peak 120 MHz: -56.94 dBm

-60.5 dBm average noise floor @ 100Hz RBW ?

I guess those are not sweeps made with open/terminated input, could you confirm this?

If present with undrived input those are internal fixed "birdies", probably present on all currently produced instruments.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on March 28, 2016, 11:54:19 am
@michael2:
With the attenuator set to 50dB the noise is more likely to be in the ballpark of -110dBm. The question you should ask yourself is: 'Is the spectrum analyser useful to you in the state it is currently in'. If the answer to that question is NO then you must return it. Do not make the mistake in thinking Siglent will fix the bugs because they won't!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on March 28, 2016, 01:14:12 pm
Quote
-60.5 dBm average noise floor @ 100Hz RBW ?

Seems about right to me (for the trace level on the display)  if I assume the preamp is off and there is 50dB attenuation and 100Hz RBW, ppeak det and max hold.

I would maybe have expected to see -65dBm 'typical' but -60.5dBm isn't that far off.

But I've never used this analyser so I'm only going by the datasheet specs. Also, I wouldn't have used that combination of span/BWsettings/detector to look at small signals relative to noise.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 28, 2016, 02:07:15 pm
Yes, the 50 dBm of attenuation will certainly reduce the sensitivity of your measurement. You also have a built-in preamp that will increase the sensitivity and lower the noise floor because it is built in and the analyzer 'knows' when it is turned on.

Please contact Siglent directly - or through the dealer from where you purchased it - if you believe are having a problem. 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on March 28, 2016, 02:17:13 pm
I worked it out from the datasheet spec of DANL = -137dBm/Hz with the preamp off in this frequency range.

Add 50dB for the attenuation and then add another 20dB for the 100Hz RBW. So you get -67dBm.

Then factor in the choice of positive peak detector and max hold and you can expect the displayed trace level to pump up several dB over several sweeps.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 28, 2016, 03:20:27 pm
I worked it out from the datasheet spec of DANL = -137dBm/Hz with the preamp off in this frequency range.

Add 50dB for the attenuation and then add another 20dB for the 100Hz RBW. So you get -67dBm.

OK, for some reason i was assuming preamp-on so the reading would have been way off.

I'm wondering if it's correct to report the best condition DANL data as "average" in the main feature list ...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=212719;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=212721;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: michael2 on March 28, 2016, 05:59:51 pm
Ok, I made a test series using the settings from the datasheet and contacted the distributer. So I will report in a few days what the result is.

Regarding the advertising -161 dBm/Hz typical, yeah this is annoying. All the nice writing in specifications just bothers me. To be fair, without my 40 MHz peaks the DANL is even in some ranges 2 dB below the typical specifications.

So we will see what would be happen the next days. I will report. Stay tuned. :=\


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on March 28, 2016, 08:01:24 pm
To be fair, without my 40 MHz peaks the DANL is even in some ranges 2 dB below the typical specifications.

Have you already checked spurius specs ?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=212777;image)


What frequency span does FFT mode support ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 30, 2016, 07:20:33 am
New Firmware has just appeared on Siglent websites:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SSA0703.rar (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SSA0703.rar)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: ytterligare on March 30, 2016, 12:11:06 pm
Hello, I've been following the thread for weeks : I'm about to get a SA, and the ( budgetwise) options are the Rigol 815 Tg and Siglent SSA3021X with TG option....mainly for amatorial use ( I'm an OM).
Are there any news on how to tell if the TG is the improved one ? I'm quite in a rush to get the SA ASAP, but not sure the one I will get will be the updated one... :-\

Thank you

Andrea
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on March 30, 2016, 12:38:01 pm
Hello, I've been following the thread for weeks : I'm about to get a SA, and the ( budgetwise) options are the Rigol 815 Tg and Siglent SSA3021X with TG option....mainly for amatorial use ( I'm an OM).
Are there any news on how to tell if the TG is the improved one ? I'm quite in a rush to get the SA ASAP, but not sure the one I will get will be the updated one... :-\

Thank you

Andrea

Hi Andrea,
The new TG version is not yet shipping and I believe it will begin to ship in late April.
As a note, many customers are currently using the existing model and simply normalize the non-flatness of the TG. I believe a photo of the TG plot appears earlier in this thread (Note that the scale was set for 1 dB/division). Normalizing is accomplished with 1-2 button presses and most users perform normalization to subtract out the effects of the coax, connectors, couples, etc. in the system under test anyway. So, it is something most people do regardless when testing the frequency response or VSWR of an device being tested. The normalized curve will look ruler flat.
We will notify everyone of the new serial numbers which will signal the new TG versions being shipped.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on April 18, 2016, 09:34:42 pm
There is a new software program for the SSA3000X's called EasySpectrum. I have used it briefly on several occasions and it has some nice features. EasySpectrum has 3 basic modes of operations:

[...snip...]

2) An EMI program for pre-compliance testing that mimics much more expensive EMI receivers used at certification labs. It also significantly speeds up these typically slow measurements - when using the quasi-peak detector - by jumping to a zero span mode when a peak response is reached during a scan. I have seen it speed up a quasi-peak detector-based EMI measurement from hours down to a few minutes.
I assume this requires the EMI measurement option on the SA?

Can the SA do quasi-peak measurements without the EMI option?

Can the internal preamp operate using a high-impedance input (e.g. 1M, 10M) mode with field probes or will such probes require an external LNA with 50ohm source impedance?

Any news on the updated TG?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on April 19, 2016, 12:30:04 pm
There is a new software program for the SSA3000X's called EasySpectrum. I have used it briefly on several occasions and it has some nice features. EasySpectrum has 3 basic modes of operations:

[...snip...]

2) An EMI program for pre-compliance testing that mimics much more expensive EMI receivers used at certification labs. It also significantly speeds up these typically slow measurements - when using the quasi-peak detector - by jumping to a zero span mode when a peak response is reached during a scan. I have seen it speed up a quasi-peak detector-based EMI measurement from hours down to a few minutes.
I assume this requires the EMI measurement option on the SA?

Can the SA do quasi-peak measurements without the EMI option?

Can the internal preamp operate using a high-impedance input (e.g. 1M, 10M) mode with field probes or will such probes require an external LNA with 50ohm source impedance?

Any news on the updated TG?

Hi bson,

To answer your questions:

1) I assume this requires the EMI measurement option on the SA?
>>>>Yes, the EMI option provides both a quasi-peak detector as well as the special IF filters used in the EMI world.

2) Can the SA do quasi-peak measurements without the EMI option?
>>>No. Although one could use the basic unit for pre-qualification testing the quasi-peak detector only comes with the EMI option. The EMI option allows for a more accurate EMI test as it more closely emulates the actual final certification testing conditions. As a note, the option can be added at any time.

3) Can the internal preamp operate using a high-impedance input (e.g. 1M, 10M) mode with field probes or will such probes require an external LNA with 50ohm source impedance?
>>The input impedance of the spectrum analyzer is 50 ohms, both with and without the preamp turned on. Siglent does sell a line of near-field probes as do other companies. These are normally designed to work into a 50 ohm load although amplitude calibration is normally not a concern because the probes are mainly used to locate and trace the source and paths of the EMI. Some people build their own probes. Normally, a second (external) LNA is not needed.

4) Any news on the updated TG?
>>>>I believe the new TG versions will begin to ship this month but you might want to check before you purhase one. I am told the new TG versions have a serial number higher than 60110.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: xyrtek on April 25, 2016, 08:05:41 pm
@Siglent America

Hi,

this has been mentioned before but probably worth of saying again, please don't forget to make samples available for independent review.

Some here value the tear-downs as  tool for purchases while others will prefer full funtionality-spec test etc. I am hopping Siglent understand the importance of this.

Personally I think there is a huge value in having your product "reviewed" by the owner of this site and of even more value when not so positive feedback is given.

Regards.

tldr: Need a SA, got the $, want to see the inside.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on April 25, 2016, 08:12:38 pm
From my inbox this morning:

 
 
 Siglent to Participate in EMC-Line 2016 Webinar April 26


See the new Siglent SSA3000X Spectrum Analyzer in Action


Siglent Technologies will be demonstrating the SSA3000X spectrum analyzer for EMI Pre-Compliance testing as part of the upcoming EMC-Live webinar.
http://www.emclive2016.com (http://www.emclive2016.com)

The Siglent demonstration is scheduled for
Tuesday, April 26, 2106 2:20 PM – 2:35 PM EDT

Registration is free and can be made at
https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1862453223797433346?source=Siglent_PD (https://attendee.gotowebinar.com/register/1862453223797433346?source=Siglent_PD)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on April 25, 2016, 08:51:25 pm
We are scheduled to get a new (TG) version in tomorrow. We will be sending it off right away for review. I can't guarantee how long that it will take before they can get to it but it will be reviewed by someone most everyone knows and trusts so I believe it will be a good objective review.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 09, 2016, 09:07:41 am
Latest SSA3000X firmware:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4702&tid=15 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4702&tid=15)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Deuze on May 11, 2016, 07:03:30 am
For guys who may interested in.
1?updated my newly bought SSA3021X to the latest FW 07.05 for twice ?seems some problem with Siglent Startup screen for the first time, so tried again),all work good.
2) The date was wrong after updating, so I changed the date and restart the machine,
3) Then, a,  what I got as below photo, 3.2 G and all options opened,,,it saves me thousand of bucks if it valid forever!


is it a bug from Siglent new firmware?? don't exactly know why.  Two steps if you wanna to try:
a. update for twice;
b. time modify.  And as I think back, I may have enter a wrong date. But how does it possible the system finally display 1970-01-01? 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: xyrtek on May 11, 2016, 01:49:59 pm
@Deuze

Hi,

I been waiting for the reviews and the release of the updated TG to purchase the SSA3021X, your findings are tempting me to buy one right away :))

Would you mind sharing what you think about the SSA3021X?

Siglent have done a good job at not having this unit reviewed or even demoed by themselves.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=SSA3000X (https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=SSA3000X)

As much info as possible would be greatly appreciated. If not too much to ask maybe open a new thread with whatever info you feel like sharing. (pm is ok ofc)

Regards.

@Siglent:

Please get his unit reviewed.

When is the new TG version going to be released and how to ID them?

For guys who may interested in.
1?updated my newly bought SSA3021X to the latest FW 07.05 for twice ?seems some problem with Siglent Startup screen for the first time, so tried again),all work good.
2) The date was wrong after updating, so I changed the date and restart the machine,
3) Then, a,  what I got as below photo, 3.2 G and all options opened,,,it saves me thousand of bucks if it valid forever!


is it a bug from Siglent new firmware?? don't exactly know why.  Two steps if you wanna to try:
a. update for twice;
b. time modify.  And as I think back, I may have enter a wrong date. But how does it possible the system finally display 1970-01-01?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on May 11, 2016, 02:16:17 pm
Shahriar at The Signal Path currently has a SSA3032X he will review as soon as he can.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on May 11, 2016, 10:36:44 pm
I was hoping it was Shahriar. He does the best SA reviews by far.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Deuze on May 12, 2016, 08:08:28 am
@xyrtek
hi here is my brief opinion about this unit: 1) At first, I would say SSA3021X is quite worth of money. I was hesitated between SSA3021X and SSA3032X, but 3032X is much more expensive. I checked all specs (like DANL) can be met with what they notify on datasheet, that's good!  2)  there is a free PC software called EasySpectrum, this works good. You can save the screen picture to PC with a black or white background.  3)  What makes me happy is that they update the FW twice already , I think it is very important! This is what I can tell so far, I also expect to see what others' opinion about it. 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 13, 2016, 01:03:32 am
I was hoping it was Shahriar. He does the best SA reviews by far.

That probably depends on how you define your target group.

I have seen a few of his videos, and they are extremely long and complex in the sense that he expects
that you already are an expert user on spectrum analyzers.

In most of his videos there is some "test filter that I had lying around". This is okey for one video,
but why use this approach over and over in every single video you make? Gets boring!

Moreover I have never seen him write some formulas on a blackboard, to explain some basic
concepts (e.g. Resolution BandWidth versus sweep time), like other people do,
such as Dave Jones and Jack Gansle.

Why not break the video in different sections, and make it in such a way, that both beginners and experts can enjoy it. Beginners watch the video from the start. Experts can watch the intro to get info
about where in time their sections of interest start, and then watch those specific parts.

The educational approach from Dave Jones and Jack Gansle are much better in my opinion.
They do have a section that works for beginners. They do use the blackboard for making notes.

I enjoy their videos much more, as they do have charisma. It's not the technical details that count always.

A good video, is a video that works for both a beginner and an expert, and where the speaker has charisma. It's a skill that you can't learn. Either you have it or you don't have it.

Last thing that you want is a long video, that gets so technical up to the level that the video becomes
boring, while at the same time you don't really learn any new things in it. What's the point of such videos? Can anyone tell me please?

If the video is technical and boring, but if you at least really learn something from it, then that's okey,
but if you don't really learn anything in the video, you better spend your time in watching another video :)

Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bob S on May 13, 2016, 01:54:40 am
I would not call a good detailed review boring. If you are thinking of spending a few thousand dollars plus a lot time in getting up to speed with some new equipment, you want to get have as much advanced technical information as possible. Bring it on, learning (or trying to learn) new stuff IS entertaining.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 13, 2016, 01:57:36 am
I was hoping it was Shahriar. He does the best SA reviews by far.
That probably depends on how you define your target group.
Exactly.

Quote
I have seen a few of his videos, and they are extremely long and complex in the sense that he expects
that you already are an expert user on spectrum analyzers.
Be sure after his review there'll be others and maybe they'll be at a newbie level.

Quote
The educational approach from Dave Jones and Jack Gansle are much better in my opinion.
For some they're fine, others not

Quote
Last thing that you want is a long video, that gets so technical up to the level that the video becomes
boring, while at the same time you don't really learn any new things in it. What's the point of such videos? Can anyone tell me please?
To demonstrate that one has more to learn to fully understand the subject.

Much of this stuff is at a university level and it can't be put in a short vid or even an hour long one, for hobbyists years even decades of part time interest and digging is needed to get to the same level.
Many paid good money to get their understanding and degrees why should those with that high level of understanding share all they know freely?  :-//

Quote
Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.
Well Shahriar it was always going to be after the unprofessional display Dave gave with his review of the SDS1000X.

He got a fail for that.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on May 13, 2016, 05:26:14 am
I was hoping it was Shahriar. He does the best SA reviews by far.

That probably depends on how you define your target group.

I have seen a few of his videos, and they are extremely long and complex in the sense that he expects
that you already are an expert user on spectrum analyzers.

In most of his videos there is some "test filter that I had lying around". This is okey for one video,
but why use this approach over and over in every single video you make? Gets boring!

Moreover I have never seen him write some formulas on a blackboard, to explain some basic
concepts (e.g. Resolution BandWidth versus sweep time), like other people do,
such as Dave Jones and Jack Gansle.

I like Shariar's videos, in fact he's the only reviewer who's videos I watch regularly and completely, and the reason is that his videos are at a level of experienced professionals. I don't want to sit through having basics which I already know explained over and in extensive length. Simple as that. I don't mind the length because it's filled with interesting stuff.

I also like that he doesn't rely on cheap show effects (i.e. that fail button). Just a good, thorough review.

I rarely watch Dave or other reviewers' videos, not because they are badly presented but simply because they focus pretty much on beginners. Which of course is important, and they do a good job there, but beginner's stuff isn't what I'm interested in. So it's not for me.

I understand that you want to see more basics and stuff but frankly there's already Dave and several other reviewers who do that. Not every video has to have beginners in mind, in fact if Shariar were to include all the stuff you're missing then he'd probably lose quite a large part of his experienced viewers like me.

@Shariar, if you read this, please don't change a thing!  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on May 13, 2016, 05:47:03 am
I'd like to go a step further than Wuerstchenhund. Dave's reviews are fun to watch and for A-brand equipment they are just fine but for the equipment from Asia you really want to know whether a piece of equipment is loaded with bugs or not. For that you need a review which is basically a full functional test and Dave just doesn't do anything near that.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on May 13, 2016, 05:51:31 am
Completely agree Wuerstchenhund.
Also a SA is not something you just go out and buy because you want something to play with.
If you are in the market for one, you are likely at the sort of level where most stuff that Shahriar is talking about is completely understandable.
I watched Jack's review of the Rigol and found it completely useless. It basically just went over what might be on the first page of a brochure.
Shahriar does interesting experiments and gives interesting insights from his professional experience. He also delves into the performance of the product and highlights any shortcomings he comes across.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: H.O on May 13, 2016, 07:41:43 am
Yeah, I was hoping one of these SA's would find its way to Shahriar (think I've said that already) as he does great reviews IMO. His videos does tend to be more advanced, often times above my level of knowledge, but I really don't mind that at all. He also tends to focus on the functionallity and performance of the instruments and not so much on how the thing looks and what color the buttons are - which sometimes seems to be the important thing for some. Theres's definitely room for both types, keep it up Shahriar !
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 13, 2016, 08:36:55 am
When is the new TG version going to be released and how to ID them?
They're out now and ID is explained in point #4 reply #101
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg922241/#msg922241 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg922241/#msg922241)

You must have missed it.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheAmmoniacal on May 13, 2016, 09:57:17 am
Indeed, absolutely no need for a general-audience review of a rather technical (specialized) instrument.

Shahriar  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on May 13, 2016, 12:35:31 pm
What I find a bit bewildering is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that none of the main bloggers ever reviews a spectrum analyser properly from a technical point of view. i.e. they don't do any of the classic formal tests.

Quote
I like Shariar's videos, in fact he's the only reviewer who's videos I watch regularly and completely, and the reason is that his videos are at a level of experienced professionals.

It depends on what you mean by a professional. I think that Shahriar's videos are aimed towards the typical 'casual' user of a spectrum analyser in this class. That's fine but some professional users of a spectrum analyser would (hopefully) want to see some formal/classic tests to see if this analyser can qualify to sit on their bench. However, most potential users of this class of instrument won't know (maybe won't even care that much?) if the analyser display is telling the truth about the spectrum it is attempting to measure. So maybe they don't want to see formal testing/comparing. They just want to see the features it offers and how easy it is to 'drive' it.

But if the analyser WAS reviewed properly from a technical point of view they would at least be able to see if it was a contender for serious use professionally.

Like I said, I suspect that Shahriar's videos are tailored towards the advanced student/hobbyist. They definitely are not aimed at a professional RF engineer for example. There's too many classic/basic tests missing.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on May 13, 2016, 12:44:27 pm
Aren't the results of classical tests part of the specification of a spectrum analyser? And are relatively low cost spectrum analysers targeted at serious use beyond measuring some simple filters, antenna matching and EMC pre-compliance checking?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on May 13, 2016, 12:55:27 pm
Quote
Aren't the results of classical tests part of the specification of a spectrum analyser?
Yes, but the specs on the datasheet will typically involve some 'weasel wording' to mask performance limitations.

Quote
And are relatively low cost spectrum analysers targeted at serious use beyond measuring some simple filters, antenna matching and EMC pre-compliance checking?
Probably not, but (generally speaking) the lower in class/cost you go with a spectrum analyser the harder it is to make reliable measurements. i.e. the overall uncertainty tends to go up.

So I would argue that it is just as important to do the classic/basic performance tests on a low cost instrument :)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Ivan7enych on May 13, 2016, 12:59:51 pm
I have seen a few of his videos, and they are extremely long and complex in the sense that he expects
that you already are an expert user on spectrum analyzers.
I would say, spectrum analyzer is not a tool for beginners. You must have some background knowledge to understand it and to use it.

My only one complain to Shahriar reviews is - he is a bit too optimistic about the reviewed product and silently skips some drawbacks.
He greatly shows some capabilities of a product, but no more.

I compare the difference between seeing the review and my personal usage -
First I saw his great review of SH BB60C analyzer, than in some time I've got this unit for me. I'm not an expert in RF, I'm just an experienced hobbyist, but since that time I filed ~20 bugs (some where obvious) to SH, half of them are already fixed, with others I have to live...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 13, 2016, 03:20:02 pm
Like I said, I suspect that Shahriar's videos are tailored towards the advanced student/hobbyist. They definitely are not aimed at a professional RF engineer for example. There's too many classic/basic tests missing.

Finally someone who is on the same page as I am! Thanks for backing!

I think we are looking for a 3rd type of video blogger, next to Dave/Jack and Shahriar.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on May 13, 2016, 04:27:23 pm
Quote
I like Shariar's videos, in fact he's the only reviewer who's videos I watch regularly and completely, and the reason is that his videos are at a level of experienced professionals.

It depends on what you mean by a professional.

Someone with a somewhat solid EE/RF background which is used as part of the dayjob to some extend. That doesn't necessarily mean a RF engineer.

Quote
What I find a bit bewildering is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that none of the main bloggers ever reviews a spectrum analyser properly from a technical point of view. i.e. they don't do any of the classic formal tests.

You're not, but I don't really expect that to find in a video review, which I see more as a quick hands-on assessment in terms of usability/handling and build quality, and that it is assumed the instruments is compliant with its specifications.

Quote
I think that Shahriar's videos are aimed towards the typical 'casual' user of a spectrum analyser in this class. That's fine but some professional users of a spectrum analyser would (hopefully) want to see some formal/classic tests to see if this analyser can qualify to sit on their bench. However, most potential users of this class of instrument won't know (maybe won't even care that much?) if the analyser display is telling the truth about the spectrum it is attempting to measure. So maybe they don't want to see formal testing/comparing. They just want to see the features it offers and how easy it is to 'drive' it.

I believe the latter is true, plus there's a certain entertainment part that people seem to expect. I wouldn't put it in the same class as a professional product evaluation, which is what you seem to expect.

Also, reviewers have to be generally careful as to how much negativity they can or should express, because no matter if justified or not, if a manufacturer sees critique as unjustified then they won't provide further stuff for reviews. It's the same in many other areas. This means you have to take video reviews with a large grain of salt.

I'd love to see real thorough product assessments but we're unlikely to get that from self-financing video reviewers on Youtube.

Quote
But if the analyser WAS reviewed properly from a technical point of view they would at least be able to see if it was a contender for serious use professionally.

The thing is that for serious use performance usually isn't the only criteria, in fact in my experience it's pretty much just half of it, the other half being stuff like reliability, maturity (an area Siglent has traditionally struggled a lot!), support (now and in the forseeable future) and so on. That means that even if this was the SA with the best RF performance in its segment I can't see any of our labs even considering it.

Like I said, I suspect that Shahriar's videos are tailored towards the advanced student/hobbyist. They definitely are not aimed at a professional RF engineer for example. There's too many classic/basic tests missing.

Finally someone who is on the same page as I am! Thanks for backing!

Eh, what?  :-//  Didn't you just argue for more beginner's content in Shariar's videos while G0HZU was pretty much talking about the opposite (examining the RF performance further)?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 13, 2016, 05:16:07 pm
If the video is done well, it can be watched both by beginners and more advanced users.
Please check my posting more careful :)

Basically the videos from Shahriar, lack structure, and don't take up the classical formal tests from the start to the end.

With proper structure in place, educational explanations on a blackboard in between, to not only focus
on the instrument as such, but also about the background technology related to spectrum analyzers, you can do a video that is both learnful, not boring, includes variation, and which is accessible to beginners and more advanced users. With an index at the beginning advanced users can start the video at the proper section.

Like I said before: I think we are looking for a 3rd type of video blogger, next to Dave/Jack and Shahriar.

Nobody is perfect. And there is always room for improvement. If only more video bloggers and forum users would realize this :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on May 13, 2016, 06:49:13 pm
Quote
I like Shariar's videos, in fact he's the only reviewer who's videos I watch regularly and completely, and the reason is that his videos are at a level of experienced professionals. I don't want to sit through having basics which I already know explained over and in extensive length. Simple as that. I don't mind the length because it's filled with interesting stuff.

I struggle a bit to watch Shahriar's (very long) videos from start to finish mainly because I'm not his intended type of viewer. However, I'm grateful that he does these videos because I can skim to the bits that do appeal to me. Usually this would be images of a teardown of an exotic item of RF test gear or a block diagram he has been supplied with.

I also appreciate the time Dave takes to upload detailed hi res still images of his teardowns of RF gear. These images are often very interesting to me. It's a pity that Dave seems to be doing fewer teardowns these days.

I guess the point that I'm really trying to make is that if this was a ham radio forum and people were reviewing HF/VHF/UHF radios from the far east then even Joe Bloggs would expect to see formal classic/basic tests of the radio in the review and a few comparisons against a benchmark or competitor.  There are numerous ham radio reviewers who have been doing this stuff since the early 1970s. They often aren't very good at presenting the information but you can look in ARRL/RSGB books or high street magazines or on various web pages to find people reviewing stuff like this quite well in terms of the critical nature of these RF tests. I'd argue that they sometimes concentrate too much on these tests and miss out important 'human factor' aspects of the radio under test but at least they use the test gear around them to explore the technical limits of the radio under test.

None of the video blog reviewers seem to do this with a spectrum analyser. It's a shame really because it is these tests that demonstrate the design integrity of the (all important) RF converter section in the analyser under test.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on May 13, 2016, 07:35:24 pm
Which basic test are you referring to; IIP3, spurs, DANL, Amplitude accuracy, phase noise?
The problem that spectrum analyzers are facing nowadays is that they are like the Swiss army knife, they can do a lot but there is a lot of instruments out there that do each thing better. If you are into phase noise, buy an SSA, if you want a lot of BW you use an oscilloscope with VSA SW and the SA is just the  downconverter, if you want to measure S11 and S21 you buy a VNA. This is how it goes in the high end market. So maybe yes, if you test for HAMs there maybe is still a need for basic tests, but for most real world professional users that use PXA, FSW etc. instruments the SA as it is is always something more than just a basic tool.

The complete instrument must work flawlessly to successfully demodulate a signal with 50dB+ of SNR and show the correct EVM. No need for basic tests of each individual component. The same goes to measure that same signal for adjacent channel leakage and receiver noise floor/sensitivity. Maybe I am wrong, but I use these things on a daily basis and if something is wrong with the unit it shows up immediately in the advanced measurements as it would in the basic ones. Maybe I am missing something?

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on May 13, 2016, 07:41:19 pm
Shahriar at The Signal Path currently has a SSA3032X he will review as soon as he can.
That's great news! Im withholding my purchase until I can compare the SSA3000x and the rigol SA  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 13, 2016, 07:59:00 pm
What I find a bit bewildering is that I seem to be the only person who thinks that none of the main bloggers ever reviews a spectrum analyser properly from a technical point of view. i.e. they don't do any of the classic formal tests.



But if the analyser WAS reviewed properly from a technical point of view they would at least be able to see if it was a contender for serious use professionally.

Like I said, I suspect that Shahriar's videos are tailored towards the advanced student/hobbyist. They definitely are not aimed at a professional RF engineer for example. There's too many classic/basic tests missing.
I for one have been quite interested in your comments on various SA's and your obvious knowledge and understanding the field of RF black magic and would/could you consider doing a writeup review on the SSA3000X if approached by Siglent?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on May 13, 2016, 08:29:29 pm
Which basic test are you referring to; IIP3, spurs, DANL, Amplitude accuracy, phase noise?
The problem that spectrum analyzers are facing nowadays is that they are like the Swiss army knife, they can do a lot but there is a lot of instruments out there that do each thing better. If you are into phase noise, buy an SSA, if you want a lot of BW you use an oscilloscope with VSA SW and the SA is just the  downconverter, if you want to measure S11 and S21 you buy a VNA. This is how it goes in the high end market. So maybe yes, if you test for HAMs there maybe is still a need for basic tests, but for most real world professional users that use PXA, FSW etc. instruments the SA as it is is always something more than just a basic tool.

The complete instrument must work flawlessly to successfully demodulate a signal with 50dB+ of SNR and show the correct EVM. No need for basic tests of each individual component. The same goes to measure that same signal for adjacent channel leakage and receiver noise floor/sensitivity. Maybe I am wrong, but I use these things on a daily basis and if something is wrong with the unit it shows up immediately in the advanced measurements as it would in the basic ones. Maybe I am missing something?

BR

You seem to be dismissing the relevance of a (decent) spectrum analyser in the modern world.
The classic RF requirement for a high performance spectrum analyser is to be able to faithfully detect and display 'very' small signals that are in the presence of lots of nearby 'very' large signals. That's about as simple a definition as it gets. However, the testing that is required to 'prove' this definition can be very complex and demanding in terms of time and test equipment. But one can do a few classic/basic tests to prove/disprove a few things.

The tests you listed above are part of this process.

An SSA is no 'general' replacement here, and a typical 8 bit scope is only useful across a limited range unless the user has the experience to identify/manage (and ignore) unwanted spurious signals generated in the scope itself. Bear in mind that the analysers being reviewed are sometimes budget analysers made in the far east. They are sometimes the first attempt at such a product from the manufacturer so I would argue that the published specs for dynamic range etc are not always going to be reliable.

If you want to see an example, at my place of work I was given access to a review sample of the (then new) Tektronix RSA306 for a couple of evenings.

It didn't take me long to find significant design flaws in its frequency planning that limited its spurious free dynamic range to about 9dB (yes, just nine dB) in some parts of its range and not the 50dB claimed in the spec sheet.

So I'm going to argue my point again that the innovative/interesting range of low cost/small/low power/wideband analysers that are hitting the market today should (ideally) be tested to see how well they hold up against the claimed performance in the glossy brochure. The risk that they don't meet these specs is going to be far greater than a conventional bench spectrum analyser made by the classic/top manufacturers.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on May 13, 2016, 08:52:50 pm
If the video is done well, it can be watched both by beginners and more advanced users.
Please check my posting more careful :)

Basically the videos from Shahriar, lack structure, and don't take up the classical formal tests from the start to the end.

With proper structure in place, educational explanations on a blackboard in between, to not only focus
on the instrument as such, but also about the background technology related to spectrum analyzers, you can do a video that is both learnful, not boring, includes variation, and which is accessible to beginners and more advanced users. With an index at the beginning advanced users can start the video at the proper section.

Like I said before: I think we are looking for a 3rd type of video blogger, next to Dave/Jack and Shahriar.

Nobody is perfect. And there is always room for improvement. If only more video bloggers and forum users would realize this :)

@G0HZU:
Can you make such a video series? :) You could use both the Siglent SSA3021X and the Rigol DSA815.
If possible also cover the general background about spectrum analyzer technology. Use the models with TG.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 13, 2016, 09:59:50 pm
.......
So I'm going to argue my point again that the innovative/interesting range of low cost/small/low power/wideband analysers that are hitting the market today should (ideally) be tested to see how well they hold up against the claimed performance in the glossy brochure. The risk that they don't meet these specs is going to be far greater than a conventional bench spectrum analyser made by the classic/top manufacturers.
Of course and exactly the reason they need be compared to the main brands by someone competent to do so.
The UI is always going to different to that one is used to but what matters more is can the instrument be trusted as meeting spec.

Would/could you be interested?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on May 13, 2016, 10:52:27 pm
Quote
@G0HZU:
Can you make such a video series? :) You could use both the Siglent SSA3021X and the Rigol DSA815.
If possible also cover the general background about spectrum analyzer technology. Use the models with TG.

Quote
I for one have been quite interested in your comments on various SA's and your obvious knowledge and understanding
the field of RF black magic and would/could you consider doing a writeup review on the SSA3000X if approached by Siglent?

.......
So I'm going to argue my point again that the innovative/interesting range of low cost/small/low power/wideband analysers that are hitting the market today should (ideally) be tested to see how well they hold up against the claimed performance in the glossy brochure. The risk that they don't meet these specs is going to be far greater than a conventional bench spectrum analyser made by the classic/top manufacturers.
Of course and exactly the reason they need be compared to the main brands by someone competent to do so.
The UI is always going to different to that one is used to but what matters more is can the instrument be trusted as meeting spec.

Would/could you be interested?

Thanks, but sadly, I don't have the free time to do this in an efficient manner. I also lack the presentation skills (charisma?) of Dave or Shahriar so I'm likely to send the audience to sleep when doing the testing. You also run the risk of me finding huge holes in the design integrity of the analyser. I'm not sure any of this is good for the marketing of Siglent products :)

Maybe you should send me a Rigol 815 or the revised Tek RSA306 to investigate ;)

To give you an idea of my background I used to design small, high performance (expensive!) RF converters for use with a digital IF back in the 1990s through to about 2003. The design goals were high dynamic range and low internal/external spurious response coupled with a wide final IF bandwidth. These were for gov/mil use and I had the luxury of a big budget. However, I didn't have the luxury of today's modern chips and chipsets to choose from. I made a lot of mistakes along the way and this was a great way to gain knowledge and experience and I'm also a very experienced user of spectrum analysers having used them all my working life.

But maybe these video reviews just need a few classic/basic comparison tests between competing analysers. You don't need someone like me for this stuff.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: _Wim_ on May 14, 2016, 01:36:08 pm
That probably depends on how you define your target group.

I have seen a few of his videos, and they are extremely long and complex in the sense that he expects
that you already are an expert user on spectrum analyzers.

In most of his videos there is some "test filter that I had lying around". This is okey for one video,
but why use this approach over and over in every single video you make? Gets boring!

Moreover I have never seen him write some formulas on a blackboard, to explain some basic
concepts (e.g. Resolution BandWidth versus sweep time), like other people do,
such as Dave Jones and Jack Gansle.

Why not break the video in different sections, and make it in such a way, that both beginners and experts can enjoy it. Beginners watch the video from the start. Experts can watch the intro to get info
about where in time their sections of interest start, and then watch those specific parts.

The educational approach from Dave Jones and Jack Gansle are much better in my opinion.
They do have a section that works for beginners. They do use the blackboard for making notes.

I enjoy their videos much more, as they do have charisma. It's not the technical details that count always.

A good video, is a video that works for both a beginner and an expert, and where the speaker has charisma. It's a skill that you can't learn. Either you have it or you don't have it.

Last thing that you want is a long video, that gets so technical up to the level that the video becomes
boring, while at the same time you don't really learn any new things in it. What's the point of such videos? Can anyone tell me please?

If the video is technical and boring, but if you at least really learn something from it, then that's okey,
but if you don't really learn anything in the video, you better spend your time in watching another video :)

Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.

I really has to disagree about this, for me Shahriar's videos are the best I have seen so far. I agree they can be a bit more complex, but that is just the fact I like about them. For formula's and theory I have books and the internet, but his video's inspire to that it a step further, and also show some practical tips and trick that you do not learn from studying theory. I consider his video's as watching over the shoulder of a much more experienced college at work, it makes you feel privileged you can follow along and learn.

In my opinion it is also not really possible to make a video that fits for an absolute beginner and also an expert, you have to choose your target public, and Shahriar has chosen a different target then Dave and Jack.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Deuze on May 19, 2016, 06:02:42 am
FYI.
The RBW on datasheet is 10Hz, but after the upgrade, I noticed it goes to 1Hz!!! Photo as below.
This means I got a totally 'revolutionized' SA with 1449 Euro?
More than satisfied with the SA.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on May 19, 2016, 07:11:26 am
FYI.
The RBW on datasheet is 10Hz, but after the upgrade, I noticed it goes to 1Hz!!! Photo as below.
This means I got a totally 'revolutionized' SA with 1449 Euro?
More than satisfied with the SA.  :popcorn:

Amazing!

(But perhaps your price is 0% VAT)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on May 24, 2016, 02:21:58 pm
3) Then, a,  what I got as below photo, 3.2 G and all options opened,,,it saves me thousand of bucks if it valid forever!

 :wtf:

It's weird .... to say the least !

So SSA3021X and SSA3032X are HW wise identical and the only difference is the firmware ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 24, 2016, 09:11:18 pm
3) Then, a,  what I got as below photo, 3.2 G and all options opened,,,it saves me thousand of bucks if it valid forever!

 :wtf:

It's weird .... to say the least !

So SSA3021X and SSA3032X are HW wise identical and the only difference is the firmware ?
Seems this is the case.  :-\

No different to most other brands of TE with models from the same series/family.
This is why there's so many attempted hacks of TE to enable further inbuilt functionality.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on May 25, 2016, 10:26:59 pm
No different to most other brands of TE with models from the same series/family.
This is why there's so many attempted hacks of TE to enable further inbuilt functionality.

Agreed, but in this specific case the price gap between the hacked device and the "legit" one is sooo huge :palm:

But i'm ever more surprised about the  self-hacking FW upgrade "gaffe" ...  :o

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on May 25, 2016, 10:31:42 pm
No different to most other brands of TE with models from the same series/family.
This is why there's so many attempted hacks of TE to enable further inbuilt functionality.

Agreed, but in this specific case the price gap between the hacked device and the "legit" one is sooo huge :palm:

But i'm ever more surprised about the  self-hacking FW upgrade "gaffe" ...  :o
You're not the only one.  ::)

Grab that FW update just in case you might ever need it.
I have.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 03, 2016, 11:48:49 am
Seriously, I need someone to post already a youtube review of this equipment !!!  :=\
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 03, 2016, 01:49:02 pm
AFAIK Signalpath has one for testing so I guess that is going to be a make or break review.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 09, 2016, 10:18:28 am
Out from box...  tool to my own  hobby use after my old HP8568B work horse find new home. (it was really nice tool but too big and heavy for continue with it.  Also my "retired" eyes like better this bit over 10" display so I do not need use magnifier anymore. (Signal in image from separate source. This is why there can see small drift and cursor position not anymore perfect when take image)
20dB input amplifier is off.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=231557;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 10, 2016, 05:01:53 pm
Input terminated with 50ohm N terminator.
Atten 0, Input Amplifier ON, RBW10kHz (roughly: subtract 40dB for normalize to dBm/Hz, Positive peak average.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=231917;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 10, 2016, 05:20:35 pm
Input terminated with 50ohm N terminator.
Atten 0, Input Amplifier ON, RBW10kHz (roughly: subtract 40dB for normalize to dBm/Hz, Positive peak average.

That is very nice, somehow this SA appeals me more than the dsa815, and although I already have the SA from the Rohde CRTU I wouldn't mind adding this one to my lab
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 10, 2016, 06:39:17 pm
Just playing with one not so bad 10MHz DOCXO.  (yes far better SSB PN than this SA, so...)
Some may think this somehow tell something about phase noise, perhaps something.  Of course SSA3000X is ot "High-End" or  "State-Of Art" class like some R&S but if think elcheapo instrumets, not so terrible. (note 10Hz RBW,  so roughly can take 10dB off  when just only playing)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=231947;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 12, 2016, 01:52:42 pm
Here signal come from  HP8642B to SSA3000X.

Here one old forum message for some kind of ref,
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/spectrum-analyzer-rigol-dsa815/msg172618/#msg172618 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/spectrum-analyzer-rigol-dsa815/msg172618/#msg172618)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=232594;image)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=232596;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 13, 2016, 09:57:00 am
In image Rigol trace source is:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/spectrum-analyzers-comparison-rigol-dsa815-signal-hound-sa44b-input-needed/msg470809/#msg470809 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/spectrum-analyzers-comparison-rigol-dsa815-signal-hound-sa44b-input-needed/msg470809/#msg470809)

SSA3000X signal is coming fom Agilent 8644B  -10dBm, 100MHz.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=232809;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 14, 2016, 01:53:38 pm
It looks like Siglent internal frequency reference looks stabile and accurate. (after warm up and stabilizing time)
For more accurate watching about drift,  I have used here 2GHz where of course 2Hz is 0.001ppm.  (1ppb)
(also in same time looked how it survive with quite low level signal. Also 20Hz AM modulation in signal is with some reason but it is not related to this)

Specs say initial error in freq is under 0.5ppm.  (in my unit error was nearly -0.1ppm)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233208;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 14, 2016, 06:14:40 pm
Thanks rf-loop for all those tests....
Am I the only one who thinks this SA looks like a really good deal??  ;D
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cio74 on June 14, 2016, 06:20:09 pm
Yes indeed, thanks for testing and sharing the screenshots, looking to get one for myself, should be more than enough for ham radio hobby projects.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 14, 2016, 07:21:57 pm
Thanks rf-loop for all those tests....
Am I the only one who thinks this SA looks like a really good deal??  ;D
Yes, I think you are the only one  >:D . I'm still waiting for Signalpath's review to see if it is still a bugfest or not and whether it can be hacked.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 10:14:01 am
I have one  ;D

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ck9vJiGXEAUyRDU.jpg)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 15, 2016, 10:18:16 am
I have one  ;D
Preliminary thoughts Dave?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 10:31:33 am
Yes, I think you are the only one  >:D . I'm still waiting for Signalpath's review to see if it is still a bugfest or not and whether it can be hacked.

I was told it can be hacked to 3GHz. If so, it's a bargain and will completely kill the Rigol.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 10:32:52 am
I have one  ;D
Preliminary thoughts Dave?

Sorry, have done literally nothing with it apart from turn it on for the photo.
But from that, great big screen, heavy, fan a bit annoying, and cheapish look'n'feel on the plastic case.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 10:38:59 am
Hack thread is here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/)

And specific post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg938261/#msg938261 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg938261/#msg938261)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 15, 2016, 10:45:41 am
Quote
Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.
Well Shahriar it was always going to be after the unprofessional display Dave gave with his review of the SDS1000X.
He got a fail for that.

Ok, I'll bite, what was wrong with it?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 15, 2016, 11:05:03 am
Yes, I think you are the only one  >:D . I'm still waiting for Signalpath's review to see if it is still a bugfest or not and whether it can be hacked.
I was told it can be hacked to 3GHz. If so, it's a bargain and will completely kill the Rigol.
Only:
IF is stays hackable
IF the advanced features are actually usefull/working and not checkbox features / pray-ware
IF it is free of bugs

Even with the SDS2000 dissaster still fresh in my mind it is mighty tempting to get one but it will take a full functional test and everything has to work before I'd decide to keep it.

BTW I really don't care if something looks cheap on the outside. All test equipment is a light to dark grey box with a display and buttons. Nowadays the Panda-look is hot to make the display look bigger.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cio74 on June 15, 2016, 11:20:00 am
I have one  ;D
Preliminary thoughts Dave?

Sorry, have done literally nothing with it apart from turn it on for the photo.
But from that, great big screen, heavy, fan a bit annoying, and cheapish look'n'feel on the plastic case.

Do you think you got the time to do a [short] review, I'm just about to buy one to complete the RF generator acquisition.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 15, 2016, 11:26:44 am
Quote
Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.
Well Shahriar it was always going to be after the unprofessional display Dave gave with his review of the SDS1000X.
He got a fail for that.

Ok, I'll bite, what was wrong with it?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg823502/#msg823502 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg823502/#msg823502)

I too cringed when I watched it for the first time.

Dave, you must know that your every action when reviewing new equipment is carefully scrutinised by all, some many times over, so apparent user mistakes can reflect poorly on any brand when better familiarity with the UI or the equipment's features would result in a fairer review. You've made and hurt manufacturers and that's the risk they take by sending equipment for you to review.
You're good at what you do, well organised and we know you have to edit an episode to make it watchable while not excluding the important content and of course that's why you now have one in your hands.

Like many I'll now wait for your apparent "worlds first" review and trust Siglent has presented you with an SA that you can report is worthy of consideration by buyers.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 15, 2016, 01:24:12 pm

Quote
Only:
IF is stays hackable
IF the advanced features are actually usefull/working and not checkbox features / pray-ware
IF it is free of bugs
I count on SW bugs, but im more interested in the HW specs. The former can be fixed with time, but the latter can't. Take for example the SDG2042x, the HW is very good, capable of generating rise times of 4.5ns, and outputting 10Vpp at high frequencies, something the Rigols signal gen can't even dream of. It has however some minor SW issues which are simply unimportant details to me.
From what I've seen from rf-loop posts, the HW in the SSA3000x looks great, but I'll wait for more in-depth reviews anyway....

Quote
BTW I really don't care if something looks cheap on the outside. All test equipment is a light to dark grey box with a display and buttons. Nowadays the Panda-look is hot to make the display look bigger.
Agreed
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 15, 2016, 01:39:25 pm
Quote
Only:
IF is stays hackable
IF the advanced features are actually usefull/working and not checkbox features / pray-ware
IF it is free of bugs
I count on SW bugs, but im more interested in the HW specs. The former can be fixed with time, but the latter can't.
True but how much time does Siglent need to get the firmware to an acceptable level if they aren't there yet? Their software team working on their oscilloscopes is horribly slow; you can count progress in years. OTOH a spectrum analyser is far less complicated from a software point of view so it shouldn't take too long to come up decent firmware but seeing is believing. As a general rule of thumb you have to make sure you can live with the device as it is out of the box with the most recent firmware and not wait for the firmware to mature because that may never happen within a reasonable timeframe.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 15, 2016, 05:11:16 pm
Sorry, have done literally nothing with it apart from turn it on for the photo.
But from that, great big screen, heavy, fan a bit annoying, and cheapish look'n'feel on the plastic case.


Heavy is good, heavy is reliable  ;D
Oops, was supposed to start at 1:05

www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XaVWAsT9A&t=1m5s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8XaVWAsT9A&t=1m5s)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheSteve on June 15, 2016, 05:17:57 pm
Yes, I think you are the only one  >:D . I'm still waiting for Signalpath's review to see if it is still a bugfest or not and whether it can be hacked.

I was told it can be hacked to 3GHz. If so, it's a bargain and will completely kill the Rigol.

I assume they sent you the 3 GHz model, if not will you be demo'ing the hack for us?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 15, 2016, 05:19:57 pm
Not checkbox feature but TG.

Looked RLC Electronics 1.8-2GHz band pass filter.
Limit is dynamic range.  Most narrow  RBW is 30kHz when TG in use.
Sweep time is with this RBW and span quite long, naturally.
If use 1G RBW it do same with 192ms. But bottom (noise) level rise so it reduce useable  level range.
Also in sweep mode sweep speed can adjust and if go too fast result is "Uncal".
80-90dB is not so much and if need more it is game over and then need different tools.
But imho it is well enough still for many purposes.

Image colors... this is my fault.. (original reason was that I forget inverse save mode in SA settings on and it is not same as negative and then I adjust it but data is there so I do not use more time for cosmetics.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233506;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 15, 2016, 05:25:20 pm
30kHz RBW versus a couple of GHz is close to irrelevant :) . If the frequency response of a filter operating in the GHz area has a 1% accuracy you are already talking about a range of tens of MHz in which the filter meets it's specifications so even a much wider RBW would yield accurate results.

edit: written more clearly
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 15, 2016, 06:11:11 pm
30kHz RBW versus a couple of GHz is close to irrelevant :) . If the frequency response of a filter operating in the GHz area has a 1% accuracy you are already talking about a range of tens of MHz in which the filter meets it's specifications so even a much wider RBW would yield accurate results.

edit: written more clearly

Of course. But....

Do you know what happend when we reduce spectrum analyzer RBW bandwidth. RBW is irrelevant...omg...  |O

Perhaps it need tell that filter stop band may be also interesting.
Of course, this can also  bend  using a iron wire. But I try first with this image.
Here attached image is exactly same test setup and same normalize. Whan was changed, RBW from 30kHz to 3000kHz.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233512;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 15, 2016, 06:23:32 pm
 :palm: I see I forgot about the noise floor if you also want to check the maximum attenuation of the filter.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 16, 2016, 12:09:05 am
Quote
Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.
Well Shahriar it was always going to be after the unprofessional display Dave gave with his review of the SDS1000X.
He got a fail for that.

Ok, I'll bite, what was wrong with it?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg823502/#msg823502 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg823502/#msg823502)

I too cringed when I watched it for the first time.

It was a quick "first impressions" review. I did not extensively test it, it was me basically playing around with it for the first time.
With that in mind, what was wrong with it?

Quote
You're good at what you do, well organised and we know you have to edit an episode to make it watchable while not excluding the important content and of course that's why you now have one in your hands.

I have one in my hand because the local dealer lent me their demo unit as soon as they got it. It did not come from Siglent to me.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 16, 2016, 12:42:35 am
Quote
Dave Jones has this big red "FAIL" button on the shelf behind his desk, which makes this "big fail" sound when you press it. That's the very same button which I like to press now at this very moment of writing.
Well Shahriar it was always going to be after the unprofessional display Dave gave with his review of the SDS1000X.
He got a fail for that.

Ok, I'll bite, what was wrong with it?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg823502/#msg823502 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1000x-series-oscilloscopes/msg823502/#msg823502)

I too cringed when I watched it for the first time.

It was a quick "first impressions" review. I did not extensively test it, it was me basically playing around with it for the first time.
With that in mind, what was wrong with it?
What can I say that won't be taken the wrong way other than you looked like a newbie operating his new toy, aimlessly twiddling this and that however if that's done to demonstrate the responsiveness of the UI and resistance to simple lockups......well done, I've overlooked that.
Hey, it's your show and I certainly couldn't do better so rather than send this thread more OT .......

I have one in my hand because the local dealer lent me their demo unit as soon as they got it. It did not come from Siglent to me.
Thanks to Charles then.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2016, 12:54:53 am
IMHO it is difficult to tell what makes a good review. From a technical buyers perspective I'd like to see a full functional test (especially when it comes to Chinese equipment) so at least I can see it works and how easy it is to operate. However such a video would be boooring  :=\  :=\ where was I... oh reviews... All in all I think Dave has to make a tradeoff between showing all the ins & out versus a cursory look to show a device exists and what the pros & cons are when compared to similar products.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheSteve on June 16, 2016, 01:59:41 am
Dave functions best when he follows his own motto - "Don't turn it on, take it apart". I find the internal shots and details of the electronic equipment a thousand times more interesting then seeing a basic functional review. It is also generally easier to find someone who shows off the user interface and functions versus seeing what makes a device tick internally as many people are afraid to take stuff apart.

So Dave, don't turn it on(we'll leave that to Shahriar), take it apart!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 16, 2016, 03:28:49 am
IMHO it is difficult to tell what makes a good review. From a technical buyers perspective I'd like to see a full functional test (especially when it comes to Chinese equipment) so at least I can see it works and how easy it is to operate. However such a video would be boooring  :=\  :=\ where was I... oh reviews... All in all I think Dave has to make a tradeoff between showing all the ins & out versus a cursory look to show a device exists and what the pros & cons are when compared to similar products.

Those are usually two different types of videos. A "first impressions" video for want of a better term is literally me turning the camera on taking it out of the box and dicking around with it, I have never used it before. The video ends up being what it is. People don't have to like that style, but it lets me get a video out quickly within a matter of hours.
Review videos have more thought and a lot more hours put into them. For example the Rigol 1054Z review where I did a 1:20min feature review, and a shorter 13min summary review, plus a teardown video. And I still didn't cover everything.
Every review is going to be a tradeoff in some way.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 16, 2016, 03:32:26 am
Dave functions best when he follows his own motto - "Don't turn it on, take it apart". I find the internal shots and details of the electronic equipment a thousand times more interesting then seeing a basic functional review. It is also generally easier to find someone who shows off the user interface and functions versus seeing what makes a device tick internally as many people are afraid to take stuff apart.

IIRC teardowns usually get more views than the reviews.

Quote
So Dave, don't turn it on(we'll leave that to Shahriar), take it apart!

There is no "we'll". I do what I want, other bloggers do what they want.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 16, 2016, 03:33:48 am
BTW, I think probably the best way to "review" the SSA is to compare it with the Rigol DSA, as they are basically the only two units on the market in this price point.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on June 16, 2016, 07:22:29 am
BTW, I think probably the best way to "review" the SSA is to compare it with the Rigol DSA, as they are basically the only two units on the market in this price point.

It would be good to get an SA44B in there as a wildcard if you can get one?

It's cheaper - although USB based so you need a PC. It has much better specs than the Rigol, and is comparable with the Siglent. 
https://signalhound.com/products/usb-sa44b/

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 16, 2016, 08:42:22 am
Sorry, have done literally nothing with it apart from turn it on for the photo.
But from that, great big screen, heavy, fan a bit annoying, and cheapish look'n'feel on the plastic case.

Heavy is good, heavy is reliable  ;D

I checked the datasheet, it's not that heavy:
contain tracking generator 4.60 kg(10.1 lb)

In fact little more than a DSA815:
With Tracking Generator
4.25 kg (9.4 lbs)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 16, 2016, 10:08:39 am
BTW, I think probably the best way to "review" the SSA is to compare it with the Rigol DSA, as they are basically the only two units on the market in this price point.
It wouldn't hurt to put an HP/Agilent/Keysight or Advantest spectrum analyser next to it.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 16, 2016, 04:39:07 pm
Example Keyshit N9320B 3GHz is perhaps technically somehow comparable.
-------------------

Here attached bit more carefully done test for imagine something about SSA3000X phase noise so that also with exactly same settings result is checked using other enough known signals and they all match well enough for this purpose.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233748;image)

Why there is unvisible trace C (Math). This I will explain later but this is how I can jump over forced Detector setting in Marker function  Noise (if I do not this, result is more nice but imho, too optimistic) Math do nothing but just Trace A + 0dB. But when select Marker fn Noise it do not matter if it change trace C detector setting. After then I can move cursor source from trace A and I can keep dBm/Hz and use what ever Detector mode in cursor source trace. (I hope they disable this Detector forcing and think that User is Mastera nd equipment is slave. I do not like equipments what try play as Master over me. ;) 

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cio74 on June 16, 2016, 04:44:28 pm
Has anyone published anything yet, I have the damn thing in the basket for a couple of days now, got to click the 'Checkout' button...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 03:06:43 am
Tg option is here:
http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1111/s/siglent-tg-ssa3000x-tracking-generator-license/category/98/ (http://www.siglent.eu/catalog/product/view/id/1111/s/siglent-tg-ssa3000x-tracking-generator-license/category/98/)
That option sounds like a mere softtware licence key, does it mean that the instrument come anyway with TG HW installed and it's only matter to activate it, even after the purchase ?

Yes. TG option is only $169, a no-brainer decision.

I got these prices quoted:
SSA3021X
9KHz-2.1GHz, Phase Noise<-98dBc/Hz, RBW 10Hz-1MHz, Min. DANL -161dBm/Hz, Total Amplitude Accuracy<0.7dB, 10.1 lnch WVGA?1024x600?Display
$1,595

SSA3032X
9KHz-3.2GHz, Phase Noise<-98dBc/Hz, RBW 10Hz-1MHz, Min. DANL -161dBm/Hz, Total Amplitude Accuracy<0.7dB, 10.1 lnch WVGA?1024x600?Display
$3,295

TG-SSA3000X
Tracking Generator Kit
$169

EMI-SSA3000X
EMI measurement kit
$559

AMK-SSA3000X
Advanced measurement kit ,including ACPR, CHPower, OBW and so on.
$465

Refl-SSA3000X
Reflection measurement kit
$429

UKitSSA3X
Utility Kit: N (M) -SMA (M) cable, N (M) -N (M) cable, N (M) -BNC (F) adaptor (2 pcs), N (M) -SMA (F) adaptor (2 pcs), 10 dB attenuator
$259

RBSSA3X20
Refl-SSA3000X, RB (1 MHz~2 GHz), N (M) -N (M) adaptor (2 pcs)
$559

SRF5030
Near Field Probe Set (4 pcs), N(M) -SMA (M) cable, N(M) -BNC(F) probe
$660

N-SMA-6L
N-SMA cable, 6GHz bandwidth
$49

N-N-6L
N-N cable, 6GHz bandwidth
$49

N-BNC-2L
N-BNC cable, 2GHz bandwidth
$39

SEM5040A
LISN
$1,885
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 03:14:37 am
Playing with it now.
Both set to 1.5GHz span and same attenuation settings.
The Siglent is an almost exact copy of the Rigol menu system! (not the first time they have done this, they have copied Keysight before)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: ebclr on June 17, 2016, 03:40:10 am
I am eagerly waiting for the results of this comparison in your videos

Did you bought both ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 03:48:00 am
Did you bought both ?

No, both are on loan.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 03:52:20 am
The UKitSSA3X utility kit is very nice. Comes with response test result, as does the individual cable option for $49


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 17, 2016, 04:11:11 am
Seems crazy to me that the UKitSSA3X utility kit at the above listed price of $259 doesn't come in a $2 plastic box but in a cardboard one.  >:(
Siglent or their supplier of these accessories needs to do better IMO, someone's gone to the trouble of making a custom foam inner that probably cost more than a decent box.  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 04:29:37 am
Did you bought both ?

No, both are on loan.

Is this SSA3000X what you use for playing with SA equipped with new or old HW (afaik, main difference is TG)
If  last 6 numbers of serial number  is over  160100 (In some old information 160110) then TG is new improved version.
Is it normal selling version or distributors early phase demo version?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 04:56:26 am
Is this SSA3000X what you use for playing with SA equipped with new or old HW (afaik, main difference is TG)
If  last 6 numbers of serial number  is over  160100 (In some old information 160110) then TG is new improved version.
Is it normal selling version or distributors early phase demo version?

Serial 2160239, May 2016 build.
It is the new one with the revised hardware. From what I have heard it's the front end they had to revise.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nugglix on June 17, 2016, 05:10:42 am
I looked at Batronix and siglent.eu, they don't even list the UKitSSA3X option.

Anyone knows if this is a new addition to the options?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 17, 2016, 05:14:38 am
Playing with it now.
Both set to 1.5GHz span and same attenuation settings.
The Siglent is an almost exact copy of the Rigol menu system! (not the first time they have done this, they have copied Keysight before)

Theres a +20dB noise improvement right there... cio74 you should just hit "buy" with confidence, ask for the latest HW though
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheSteve on June 17, 2016, 05:20:17 am
How much does the noise floor change with the preamps enabled?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 17, 2016, 05:24:24 am
I looked at Batronix and siglent.eu, they don't even list the UKitSSA3X option.

Anyone knows if this is a new addition to the options?
They're all listed in the datasheet and on the Siglent websites:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SSA3000X_DataSheet_DS0703X-E03A.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SSA3000X_DataSheet_DS0703X-E03A.pdf)
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=1546&T=2&tid=227)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on June 17, 2016, 05:32:43 am
Dave have you checked out the new Rigol E variation?
http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/rf-test-equipment/dsa-832e-865.html#.V2OKxvl97AQ (http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/rf-test-equipment/dsa-832e-865.html#.V2OKxvl97AQ)

Wonder how that compares to the Siglent.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cio74 on June 17, 2016, 05:38:51 am
Playing with it now.
Both set to 1.5GHz span and same attenuation settings.
The Siglent is an almost exact copy of the Rigol menu system! (not the first time they have done this, they have copied Keysight before)

Theres a +20dB noise improvement right there... cio74 you should just hit "buy" with confidence, ask for the latest HW though

I just did (ask which HW version/production date I will get) after reading the latest posts :)



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 06:20:52 am
Dave have you checked out the new Rigol E variation?
http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/rf-test-equipment/dsa-832e-865.html#.V2OKxvl97AQ (http://www.emona.com.au/products/electronic-test-measure/rf-test-equipment/dsa-832e-865.html#.V2OKxvl97AQ)
Wonder how that compares to the Siglent.

Hadn't seen that.
Vastly better DANL than the regular one, but the price doesn't make it a comparison.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 06:32:03 am
How much does the noise floor change with the preamps enabled?

If you read specs and if you read this thread there is also some real tests
~20dB.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 06:36:10 am
How much does the noise floor change with the preamps enabled?

Both with preamps on (Siglent is 20dB vs 10dB on Rigol)
At 1MHz and 10KHz RBW


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TheSteve on June 17, 2016, 07:10:30 am
Very nice, Thanks Dave. It will be quite interesting to see them in operation side by side.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 07:12:35 am
Is this SSA3000X what you use for playing with SA equipped with new or old HW (afaik, main difference is TG)
If  last 6 numbers of serial number  is over  160100 (In some old information 160110) then TG is new improved version.
Is it normal selling version or distributors early phase demo version?

Serial 2160239, May 2016 build.
It is the new one with the revised hardware. From what I have heard it's the front end they had to revise.

Yep. I only ask so that readers know what are under test. (I have same rev HW)

Comment for image where can see noise floors and sweep speeds.

Sweep peed is quite complex compromise between things and one result is accuracy vs speed.

Here attached image.   Outside from image I can also note that just with this default trace and settings (144ms sweep time) it repeating speed is 3 sweep in second. (but this repeting time is really very much changing thing depending from many settings combination)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233920;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 08:12:42 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233920;image)

How'd you get the 4 difference traces with the different settings?
Buggered if I can do it...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 08:24:33 am
I have seen many confusions when peoples wonder trace settings. There is many settings including peak hold max, min, averages etc. These can select individually for all 4 traces. And then there is other "mystery": Detector. Also it can of course set individually for all 4 traces.

Trace average and video average is very different. In simply: Video average works inside one sweep but trace average averages sequential sweeps. But, when run long time Trace average it also result nearly same as video average but... still video average is very very different is look its result and Detector mode Pos Peak and with it done trace averaging. Video average may give "nice looking" image but there is serious trap where user can drop if do not be careful. Video average is nice for noise but it may loose signal if signal is quite narrow on the screen. Mostly, use Detector mode Positive Peak! Until you really NEED something else. In some cases even Neg Peak may be  handy in right place and in right hands what know what are doing.

Note that I have selected 10Hz RBW but 30Hz WBW just for give more clear visibility to these things and get more wide p-p so that Neg Peaks hit this spectrum absolute bottom border around 940pV.

Perhaps these images may clarify even something.  (with these  images can also get imagine about  DANL)



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233945;image)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233947;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 08:36:25 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=233920;image)

How'd you get the 4 difference traces with the different settings?
Buggered if I can do it...

It is customary first to study and to work afterwards.

Perhaps important question for users. (and at this time User Manual is ...really "poor".  I hope some day chinese manufacturer(s) do real "Users Reference Manual" what include more deep explanations ancluding also some detailed look how equipment works in some details - exactly. aka "Theory of operation")
Every trace have individual settings in trace menu and individual detector setting in detector menu where you select what trace use what detector. And when you want "freeze" one trace just in trace menu select "View". It need work sequentially (do one trace ready and freeze it, do next and freeze..etc. With this method can collect different things to same display).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 08:53:12 am
Every trace have individual settings in trace menu and individual detector setting in detector menu where you select what trace use what detector. And when you want "freeze" one trace just in trace menu select "View". It need work sequentially (do one trace ready and freeze it, do next and freeze..etc. With this method can collect different things to same display).

Yes, I'm trying to do that (get a different RBW for each trace) but it seems buggy or something and doesn't want to leave the trace after I switch. It's weird.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 09:07:42 am
Every trace have individual settings in trace menu and individual detector setting in detector menu where you select what trace use what detector. And when you want "freeze" one trace just in trace menu select "View". It need work sequentially (do one trace ready and freeze it, do next and freeze..etc. With this method can collect different things to same display).

Yes, I'm trying to do that (get a different RBW for each trace) but it seems buggy or something and doesn't want to leave the trace after I switch. It's weird.

As example here in Reply #148

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=232594;image)

Works just simply and rock solid without any hassle.

But if your fingers works faster than your brain and more importantly faster than equipment brain.....  this is not way how we use equipments in lab. Every selection and every enter need do systematically and deliberately after cogitation. It is not gameboy where fastest finger win.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 17, 2016, 09:07:57 am
After much struggle with the stupid Trace system, I got this.
1MHz, 100KHz, and 10KHz RBW

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 09:37:57 am
After much struggle with the stupid Trace system, I got this.
1MHz, 100KHz, and 10KHz RBW

Do you still think Siglent have done copy from Rigol menu system? Or how long it takes to change opinion?
Every equipment is different. There is also learning curve. When I was use half year one Tek then I get (similar) HP to my hands I feel ...oh my god this is stupid and arrghs... but. After I feel familiar with it my opinion was changed.

But so or so. I hope Siglent and who ever manufacturer use more power to develop useability. This can not do if there is some programmers who have perhaps nearly total lack of knowledge about any real work in lab with T&M equipments and then he design UI as alongside the main job.
It need deep knowledge about human and it need lot of experience with real work using T&M equipments to design front panel and menu system so that it best serve equipment use in real work. Needing a broad interdisciplinary knowledge (including many science Sectors). Only then can design a good user interface. And it is not easy. It is also lot of work. This is why example in (old) HP they really work hard and invest lot of for useability and it have been also expensive. But also not without mistakes.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 17, 2016, 11:26:27 am
@rf-loop: can you tell something about the user interface when comparing an Advantest spectrum analyser and the Siglent SSA3000X series? If you have ever worked with an Advantest spectrum analyser.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 17, 2016, 01:34:37 pm
Quote
Only:
IF is stays hackable
IF the advanced features are actually usefull/working and not checkbox features / pray-ware
IF it is free of bugs
I count on SW bugs, but im more interested in the HW specs. The former can be fixed with time, but the latter can't.

True but how much time does Siglent need to get the firmware to an acceptable level if they aren't there yet? Their software team working on their oscilloscopes is horribly slow; you can count progress in years. OTOH a spectrum analyser is far less complicated from a software point of view so it shouldn't take too long to come up decent firmware but seeing is believing. As a general rule of thumb you have to make sure you can live with the device as it is out of the box with the most recent firmware and not wait for the firmware to mature because that may never happen within a reasonable timeframe.

Following up on this topic, I did report a bug 20 days ago on the sdg2042x ( actually tautech reported it to them  :) ), today a new firmware is available addressing that isssue and adding the capability of combining both output channels... So from my point of view they were pretty responsive. :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on June 17, 2016, 04:43:16 pm
Following up on this topic, I did report a bug 20 days ago on the sdg2042x ( actually tautech reported it to them  :) ), today a new firmware is available addressing that isssue and adding the capability of combining both output channels... So from my point of view they were pretty responsive. :popcorn:
Agreed! They even fixed the external reference issue I had.   :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 04:54:05 pm
How much does the noise floor change with the preamps enabled?

Here is two examples. Using RBW 1MHz and 10kHz.
Results are quite comparable with other RBW settings. (With full span most narrow RBW is limited to 1kHz)


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234072;image)

Added Note: In this image RBW 10kHz and 1MHz use different "Sweep Mode". 10k sweep mode is FFT and 1M sweep mode is "Sweep".
Also sweep time is really very different and it is possible that it affect also bit specially for visible noise levels.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 17, 2016, 05:07:49 pm
Following up on this topic, I did report a bug 20 days ago on the sdg2042x ( actually tautech reported it to them  :) ), today a new firmware is available addressing that isssue and adding the capability of combining both output channels... So from my point of view they were pretty responsive. :popcorn:
Agreed! They even fixed the external reference issue I had.   :-+
Signal generators where the first real instruments they made (SDG1000 series) and the early versions where useable but far from complete. I'm also under the impression that Siglent has different software teams on different instruments so the update frequency on one product line does not necessarily says something about the update frequency on the other product lines. Because they have been doing signal generators for such a long time it is to be expected they can fix bugs quickly. However the spectrum analyser is (AFAIK) the latest addition so the software team is likely new as well.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 05:23:57 pm
However the spectrum analyser is (AFAIK) the latest addition so the software team is likely new as well.

Siglent SSA1010 and SSA3030 are previous models so they are not just new in SA's.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on June 17, 2016, 05:23:57 pm
It is very interesting to see a difference greater than 20dB between the 1MHz and 10kHz RBW. This might be due to a difference in filer shape?

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 17, 2016, 05:38:20 pm
It is very interesting to see a difference greater than 20dB between the 1MHz and 10kHz RBW. This might be due to a difference in filer shape?

BR

1M RBW sweep mode is  "Sweep"  and with 10kHz RBW  sweep mode  is "FFT".  (In Auto mode it select automatically)
FFT sweep mode is not visible in image because first I take 10k traces and after then 1M traces.

Also sweep mode "Sweep" have two selections: "Speed"(default) and "Accuracy". In image it was default and also sweep mode selection was in Auto so it change automatically from "Sweep" to "FFT"
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on June 17, 2016, 09:09:30 pm
Makes sense, thank you for your quick reply.

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 18, 2016, 03:38:15 am
Phase noise for a 1GHz 0dBm carrier from my Rubidium + Marconi 2030 for a 1MHz offset on both the Rigol and Siglent.
Significantly different PLL responses.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234147;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 18, 2016, 03:40:28 am
Works just simply and rock solid without any hassle.

No, it's a hassle if you don't know the exact sequence to get it working to do that. It is non-obvious IMO.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 18, 2016, 04:10:14 am
Works just simply and rock solid without any hassle.

No, it's a hassle if you don't know the exact sequence to get it working to do that. It is non-obvious IMO.
Swatting up a bit on these myself and the Quick Start guide gives little instructive help while the User manual is much better. There's a inbuilt Help system that after selection any further keys pressed will give assistance on that topic to the user and to exit press Help again.
While you indicate that usage (for you) is not intuitive plastered all through the manuals and marketing blurb is: friendly user interface, Intuitive menu, easy-to-use and so on.
I'm not taking the piss Dave, just trying to explore possible deficiencies in the UI.

It would be useful for those watching at home to know if the Help is any help at all.  :-//

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/QuickStart/SSA3000X_Quick%20Guide.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/QuickStart/SSA3000X_Quick%20Guide.pdf)
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SSA3000X_User%20Manual_UM0703X_E02A.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SSA3000X_User%20Manual_UM0703X_E02A.pdf)

Latest datasheet: (different to that posted in reply#2)
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SSA3000X_DataSheet_DS0703X-E03A.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SSA3000X_DataSheet_DS0703X-E03A.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 18, 2016, 04:19:27 am
It would be useful for those watching at home to know if the Help is any help at all.  :-//

The Help menu for the Trace function is not a huge help, but has a short description if you select help for each option. It's not better than the manual, practically the same short text.
The Rigol works identically because the Siglent UI is a complete ripoff.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Ivan7enych on June 18, 2016, 07:26:52 am
Phase noise for a 1GHz 0dBm carrier from my Rubidium + Marconi 2030 for a 1MHz offset on both the Rigol and Siglent.
Significantly different PLL responses.

Very strange picture on Siglent.
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.
Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 18, 2016, 08:35:35 am
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.

That's not what the UNCAL warning is for on the Rigol, it has to do with sweep time.
The Siglent will eventually show an "ADC overload" warning message and beep continually if the input is overloaded.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on June 18, 2016, 09:32:07 am
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.

That's not what the UNCAL warning is for on the Rigol, it has to do with sweep time.
The Siglent will eventually show an "ADC overload" warning message and beep continually if the input is overloaded.

Can you explain what those images are supposed to show please, cos it's making no sense to me to set the ref to -40dBm and feed in an 0dBm signal.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on June 18, 2016, 09:52:18 am
Phase noise for a 1GHz 0dBm carrier from my Rubidium + Marconi 2030 for a 1MHz offset on both the Rigol and Siglent.
Significantly different PLL responses.

Very strange picture on Siglent.
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.
Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?

Also why does the Siglent have a attenuation of 10dB set?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 18, 2016, 10:10:05 am
That's not what the UNCAL warning is for on the Rigol, it has to do with sweep time.
The Siglent will eventually show an "ADC overload" warning message and beep continually if the input is overloaded.
Exactly. In this setting everything below 100Hz RBW will show the UNCAL on the Rigol; in other cases in might appear earlier or later, probably depending on the sweep time.
However, Dave if showing such comparisons you should use the same settings on both machines. I recognized at least the 10dB  attenuator on the Siglent (0dB on the Rigol) (as the poster before me already posted).

The lower signal on the Siglent appears to be a bug. I recognized that with lower RBWs (probably only with narrow band signals - this needs some more time for checking) the signal is not being displayed correctly anymore (EDIT: not a bug, system was in video average mode and there were not enough data on the screen; with a smaller span (=more data) it is OK). See attached screenshots showing RBW of 10KHz, 3KHz, 1KHz, 300Hz, 100Hz, 30Hz). (Edit: in PeakPeak mode it is correct, thus Daves screenshot would probably look correct it he would change Detect mode from Video Average to PeakPeak).
It is always the same 10 Mhz signal, no difference in settings but RBW. Signal level on the screen falls from >0dB to -75dB.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 10:20:07 am
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.

That's not what the UNCAL warning is for on the Rigol, it has to do with sweep time.
The Siglent will eventually show an "ADC overload" warning message and beep continually if the input is overloaded.

Can you explain what those images are supposed to show please, cos it's making no sense to me to set the ref to -40dBm and feed in an 0dBm signal.

We can set reference level lower than signal peak level. But, there need be careful also and know what do so that result in sideband is still valid. I will later show some test images what may explain this better but this may take bit time due to queued work and hobby situation.
Basic fundamentals of spectrum analyzers may also help.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on June 18, 2016, 11:07:43 am
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.

That's not what the UNCAL warning is for on the Rigol, it has to do with sweep time.
The Siglent will eventually show an "ADC overload" warning message and beep continually if the input is overloaded.

Can you explain what those images are supposed to show please, cos it's making no sense to me to set the ref to -40dBm and feed in an 0dBm signal.

We can set reference level lower than signal peak level. But, there need be careful also and know what do so that result in sideband is still valid. I will later show some test images what may explain this better but this may take bit time due to queued work and hobby situation.
Basic fundamentals of spectrum analyzers may also help.

Interesting - so you are overdriving it for a portion of the sweep so that you have enough sensitivity left to see the sideband?

The SA I use has a phase noise mode for doing that and the dBc conversion. Possibly because it does not show anything like a sensible trace when overdriven to that level. I didn't realise other types permit it.

Not only is the 10dB attenuator set, the Siglent also has 10x averaging turned on.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 11:40:47 am

Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?

Because in this case Siglent use Detector mode what is ok for measure noise (average), not ok for measure signal peaks. Independent of this, there is still 0dBm signal what, due to phase noise, is rising sideband (noise) level what is (in principle) ok - exept that I suspect bit this result....

Also need note that 100kHz from carrier or 1M from carrier are in same ballpark. But if we look more low signals I suspect that  Rigol meet its noise floor level very soon.  But totally different game start if we go near to carrier. There is just - game over.
Many times I need look near carrier center, say example inside 1kHz from carrier center.

Siglent need repair and improve some things in Markers and specialy what are related to dBc/Hz and or dBm/Hz
It is borderline that I can name it as bug. But least it need improve if not even repair.
(Do not trust dBm/Hz readings exept if you measure just noise and nothing else. Specially if use delta cursors so that there is just noise and signal peak. For more trusted result you need change Detector. But now happend strange thing. It reset dBm/Hz and show agen just dBm. If at this time need use it there can set one trace for math. Trick is: do math for this trace sot that output is input (add zero). After then take this trace for Marker source. Now select Noise marker. (it now set VideoAverage detector  for this

Other thing what Siglent need think agen is frequency settings. If I do, Peak marker - move it to start freq. After I want change span I want keep this start freq but Span is always calculated related to CF and I can not select that  "keep start freq" (or stop freq or center). It is permanently fixed to "keep center freq". This is not nice for sideband working. Of course it can do also now but but need push lot of buttons after change span. Also proportinally moving Markers when change span need perhaps some more option what user want set. Keep abs positions or change proportinally after user change span.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 11:53:04 am
Why does Siglent show no warning that input power 0dBm is higher than Ref -40dBm, Rigol shows UNCAL warning.

That's not what the UNCAL warning is for on the Rigol, it has to do with sweep time.
The Siglent will eventually show an "ADC overload" warning message and beep continually if the input is overloaded.

Can you explain what those images are supposed to show please, cos it's making no sense to me to set the ref to -40dBm and feed in an 0dBm signal.

We can set reference level lower than signal peak level. But, there need be careful also and know what do so that result in sideband is still valid. I will later show some test images what may explain this better but this may take bit time due to queued work and hobby situation.
Basic fundamentals of spectrum analyzers may also help.

Interesting - so you are overdriving it for a portion of the sweep so that you have enough sensitivity left to see the sideband?

The SA I use has a phase noise mode for doing that and the dBc conversion. Possibly because it does not show anything like a sensible trace when overdriven to that level. I didn't realise other types permit it.

Not only is the 10dB attenuator set, the Siglent also has 10x averaging turned on.

Specifications
"Displayed Average Noise Level (DANL)....sample detector, trace average >50"

As I have previously told sample det with trace average (enough sweeps) give very similar result as give VideoAverage. (When average mode is LogPower)
This can also use for measure sideband noise levels in case of phase noise. But it need note that only Peak detector give also carrier level reliable for measure its level. It come very important if user use example delta markers for measuring and there is easy acciddentally walk and drop to trap.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 18, 2016, 11:55:35 am

Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?

Because in this case Siglent use Detector mode what is ok for measure noise (average), not ok for measure signal peaks. Independent of this, there is still 0dBm signal what, due to phase noise, is rising sideband (noise) level what is (in principle) ok - exept that I suspect bit this result....
Can you show a 10MHz signal with a 1MHz span at 30Hz RBW to verify Pinkus used the wrong settings which caused the wrong results?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 18, 2016, 12:03:56 pm

Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?

Because in this case Siglent use Detector mode what is ok for measure noise (average), not ok for measure signal peaks. Independent of this, there is still 0dBm signal what, due to phase noise, is rising sideband (noise) level what is (in principle) ok - exept that I suspect bit this result....
Can you show a 10MHz signal with a 1MHz span at 30Hz RBW to verify Pinkus used the wrong settings which caused the wrong results?
See edited post
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg964577/#msg964577 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg964577/#msg964577)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 18, 2016, 12:04:12 pm
Can you show a 10MHz signal with a 1MHz span at 30Hz RBW to verify Pinkus used the wrong settings which caused the wrong results?
I edited my post above. The problem was VideoAverage mode on "ON" (I tried to use the same basic settings Dave was using). The same problem applies to Daves shot. As of this there is not enough data on the screen for the average, thus not enough data. With VideoAverage "Off" or a smaller SPAN (=more data) it is fine.
Edit: I added 4 pictures to this post:
1st: 100Hz in Average mode (displayed signal is already a bit too low)
2nd: 30Hz in Average mode (now even more dropped level)
3rd: 30Hz in Average mode but with a Span of 25Khz instead of 200Khz (everything OK as now more data available for averaging)
4th: 100Hz in PeakPeak mode and 200 Khz Span (everything OK even with a wider Span as now peaks are displayed)

So it is obvious that the problem is a result of not enough data on the screen for video averaging. I should have noted this before.
Dave: can you please produce your shot again in Trace: Average; Detector: PeakPeak mode?
The Rigol DSA815 does have the same problem when RBW is small enough, it has the the same wrong display as the Siglent; when Detector is set to Peak and Trace to Avg everything is OK here too.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 12:05:33 pm

Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?

Because in this case Siglent use Detector mode what is ok for measure noise (average), not ok for measure signal peaks. Independent of this, there is still 0dBm signal what, due to phase noise, is rising sideband (noise) level what is (in principle) ok - exept that I suspect bit this result....
Can you show a 10MHz signal with a 1MHz span at 30Hz RBW to verify Pinkus used the wrong settings which caused the wrong results?

Imho,  This is not that Pinkus selected wrong settings.

Is this peak noise? No it is not, it is signal carrier peak. But he use Noise cursor function what set wrong Detector for measure nothing other than Noise in this named  case..

But yes I will show it (also it is explained indirectly earlier in this thread when I tell why I have used one trace for Math (for intermediate step for jump over Siglent forced detector selection)
Title: Comparison Rigol DSA815TG with Siglent SSA3000x
Post by: Pinkus on June 18, 2016, 12:46:41 pm
OK Guys,
I will have the Siglent and the Rigol here for another 2 hours.
I already took the opportunity and made some checks and comparisons (with screenshots) which I will post later (maybe tomorrow).

Now: if you have specific needs and/or wishes where I should compare those two analyzers, please post them here. I will try to accomplish your wishes.
Time is running......
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 02:20:29 pm

Why trace peak on Siglent is much much lower (-65dBm) than actual input power (0dBm) ?

Because in this case Siglent use Detector mode what is ok for measure noise (average), not ok for measure signal peaks. Independent of this, there is still 0dBm signal what, due to phase noise, is rising sideband (noise) level what is (in principle) ok - exept that I suspect bit this result....
Can you show a 10MHz signal with a 1MHz span at 30Hz RBW to verify Pinkus used the wrong settings which caused the wrong results?

Here some images (2nd is what you ask).
There is used different Detectors.
PosPeak (pink), Normal (Yellow), VideoAverage (Green) this last one is good to noise but very careful with other things, as described shortly also in Usermanual.



All images is made so that carrier peak is 0dBm. (also in displayed level range exept last "extreme")
Signal come from HP/Agilent 8644B also checked with Z3801 DOCXO (in free run mode)  and with HP8642B with its own option reference. I do not use directly example Rb for reference because they are so poor in short time stability.

Last image: This is NOT what you get when you buy SSA3000X!  This is out from SSA3021X and SSA3032X features and specifications, totally.
In last image I have set ref to -10dBm because noise level drop partially out from display. 10dB over ref so that noise level rise enough for looking. Carrier peak is still  measured right by Marker and it is there still ok 10dB over reference level (but not more if want level accuracy (in this particular combination of settings)

Also it looks like Siglent frequency reference is really good.  It looks more like if want competite higher class SA's there need bit improve PLL or soething.

----
@Pinkus. If you still have available Rigol also, please look 1kHz span 100Hz RBW and example 4k span with 0dB signal and using normal pos peak and video average detectors and so that ref is also 0dBm. (perhaps you need also use some 2-5 times  trace averaging for more steady image?)
Because, there is real drop out game.

In images, note that Marker 1 is only what measure narrow carrier "peak" level right. (Marker 2 just show how wrong it can be with Detector what is not good for used purpose. User need know what he is doing.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234275;image)
1GHz   Span 1M, RBW30Hz

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234277;image)
10MHz   Span 1M, RBW30Hz

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234279;image)
10MHz   Span 200kHz, RBW30Hz


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234281;image)
Do not dream about this!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: egonotto on June 18, 2016, 02:59:43 pm
Hello,

i want ask what the real difference in noisefloor (DANL) is.

As in Daves picture "SiglentSSA3000-1.JPG" it seem to be almost 20dB.

I have trouble to believe that.
Do he use comparable adjustment (perhaps detector)?

Best Regards
egonotto

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 18, 2016, 04:16:37 pm
@Pinkus. If you still have available Rigol also, please look 1kHz span 100Hz RBW and example 4k span with 0dB signal and using normal pos peak and video average detectors and so that ref is also 0dBm. (perhaps you need also use some 2-5 times  trace averaging for more steady image?)
Because, there is real drop out game.
OK - done. Almost in the last minute...the Rigol is gone now - no more comparison possible.
Please find attached the shots you asked for.
All show the same 10 Mhz signal with (almost) 0dB level. All shots with 20x video average (detector: peak-peak).
Attenuator had to be 20dB at Siglent (Rigol 10dB), otherwise the signal was to strong. All other settings are identical.

Screenshots:
Rigol 4 Khz SPAN, 100 Hz RBW
Siglent 4 Khz SPAN, 100 Hz RBW

Rigol 1 Khz SPAN, 100 Hz RBW
Siglent 1 Khz SPAN, 100 Hz RBW

Rigol 1 Khz SPAN, 30 Hz RBW
Siglent 1 Khz SPAN, 30 Hz RBW

Siglent 1 Khz SPAN, 10 Hz RBW (10 Hz not available at Rigol)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 18, 2016, 04:35:19 pm
Still I'm not sure whether it is correct the signal shows so low on the SSA3000 when using the normal detector. I just tried with my Advantest SA and with RBW=1kHz and VBW=10Hz a 0dBm signal stays at 0dBm. Could it be Siglent compresses multiple points into a single point by taking the average of several measurements instead of the maximum measured value?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 06:30:17 pm
Still I'm not sure whether it is correct the signal shows so low on the SSA3000 when using the normal detector. I just tried with my Advantest SA and with RBW=1kHz and VBW=10Hz a 0dBm signal stays at 0dBm. Could it be Siglent compresses multiple points into a single point by taking the average of several measurements instead of the maximum measured value?

I do not exatly understand what test or what image you have in mind with this comment.

Perhaps this clarify it better. There is marker now for every trace and every trace have different detector.

Signal 10MHz, 0dBm, Span 4M, Center 10M, RBW 1kHz, VBW 10Hz.

Detectors:
A Normal e as in some previous images this "fat" yellow trace where even point draw positive and odd point negative and repeating over
B PPeak
C Npeak
D VideoAverage

Detector mode Sample not used (it moves between B and C as can see in my some previous images)

Traces just all new in every sweep (no trace averaging)

Display line is adjusted exactly where is VideoAverage level when signal is off



As can see PPeak and Normal result is same.


Note: Ref is -10dB but signal is 0dB. Top is over image but it measure it still ok, (this is not problem in this case)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234382;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 18, 2016, 06:54:44 pm
Yes, but what happens if to decrease the RBW to 30Hz with a 1MHz span? IMHO normal detector mode should give a level around 0dBm.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 07:16:22 pm
Yes, but what happens if to decrease the RBW to 30Hz with a 1MHz span? IMHO normal detector mode should give a level around 0dBm.

Yes it give also 0dBm, exactly. Images later.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Andy2 on June 18, 2016, 07:24:42 pm
The Siglent certainly appears to put the Rigol in the shade re phase noise. But (I'm sorry, I can't resist this as I've had an early Scotch & Dry...) My little Signal Hound SA44b does even better:

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 07:32:18 pm
Yes, but what happens if to decrease the RBW to 30Hz with a 1MHz span? IMHO normal detector mode should give a level around 0dBm.

Here previously missed images.
As can see, both detectors give same result.
Also there can see VidAve trace is same independent of VBW as expected.

It is possible that in some my Siglent images made confusion becaause no information abput what marker is for what trace. Also it need know that trace display priority is D, C, B, A.  No it is not accident it is just clever. First you use default trace A. After then you want add some setting... take trace B. It write over A, then you think you want still keep these  but take something other visible and you add C  and now this most new write over these old...  This is good as default.  But I hope they later add feature where user can call what ever trace over others just pressing trace selector and this trace pop up  over others and so on..  Just like in oscilloscopes.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234423;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234425;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 18, 2016, 07:50:59 pm
The Siglent certainly appears to put the Rigol in the shade re phase noise. But (I'm sorry, I can't resist this as I've had an early Scotch & Dry...) My little Signal Hound SA44b does even better:

Yes.

There can also see that SH filter shape factor is different.
And, it take nearly 7 times more time for sweep 4kHz with RBW100Hz
How it is with 10Hz RBW.

SH near carrier phase noise looks exellent!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Andy2 on June 19, 2016, 08:07:59 am
Moving in to 1KHz span and 10 Hz RBW begins to show the Hound's very close in noise:



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 19, 2016, 11:03:33 am
Moving in to 1KHz span and 10 Hz RBW begins to show the Hound's very close in noise:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234563;image)



NOTE: In Siglent image top level (Ref) is -20dB. Signal top is there 0dBm but unvisible.
(Siglent display setting max is 10dB/div so max visible range is 100dB)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234579;image)

Signal 0dBm 10MHz, AM modulation 1% with 80Hz

Green trace is average what give quite ok result for also average noise level.
Yellow trace is Positive peak detector Positive peak hold. "Max hold".
Pink trace is Positive peak detector Negative peak hol. "Min Hold"

Just explanation if someone is confused with Atten and Ref level settings... Siglent can not turn for 120dB display range. So visible window can in some situations  move down if there is some interesting under -100dBc.
Why 21dB Attenuator instead of Default 20dB. Just with 10Hz RBW if use default -20dB Attenuator and Ref is 0dBm and Signal is 0dBm it goes too close to some internal limiting factors. (With 30Hz RBW there is more room before hit limitst, and with 100Hz RBW agen more.) If situation is very very bad with levels then there come also visible and audible warning of course but then we are really in true ADC clipping) There is not this situation with 10Hz RBW, 0dBm signal 0dBm Ref 20dB atten. But there strat minimal level instability in measurements and something like 0.2-0.4dB random variations. This is why I set 1dB more Attenuator from 20dB to 21dB so signal peak level measurement is rock solid stabile and accurate.

Shortly: do not worry my settings. They are exactly ok for this case and do not give any kind of too bad or too good result..

Signal is there just ok over top of visible window with these settings. Also of course automatic tracking cursor follow this peak.

Why there is this modulation. Just for imagine what is situation if look same with example Rigol. These AM sidebands just perhaps barely detectable. (But not at all if minimum RBW is 100Hz, but I have heard someone have hacked it to 10Hz RBW)

Disclaimer:
Last two images: No one can promise if these are available and true in SSA3kX. World is full of many kind of experimental things out from specifications....
Specifications for SSA3000X what Siglent sell and promise at this time is: Minimum available RBW is 10Hz. Period!

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234581;image)

Next is just for show  that previous image signal level is ok when it exeeds display reference level.
Only change is ref level.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234583;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cio74 on June 19, 2016, 08:06:10 pm
Apologise if I have missed it, have someone injected or/and sweep a signal very close to the noise floor level, say -80dBm, is it properly displayed/measured?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 19, 2016, 10:04:52 pm
Apologise if I have missed it, have someone injected or/and sweep a signal very close to the noise floor level, say -80dBm, is it properly displayed/measured?

Thanks.
Here you go: 0dB signal with external attenunator switched to
0dB
-20dB
-40dB
-60dB

and then
-70dB
-80dB

and then
-80dB with PreAmp switched on.
-80dB with PreAmp switched on and also internal attenuator of 40dB.
Nothing to complain I would say.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 19, 2016, 10:06:57 pm
FYI for future readers (currently the threads are close together but that will change):
I did here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparison-rigol-dsa815-tg-with-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyzer/msg965435/#msg965435 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparison-rigol-dsa815-tg-with-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyzer/msg965435/#msg965435)
a brief comparison between the Rigol DS815-TG and the Siglent SAA3021X.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2016, 02:50:49 am
Here is the 10MHz phase noise comparison at 10KHz offset with a -110dBc source.
No contest, the Siglent wins hands down.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparison-rigol-dsa815-tg-with-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyzer/?action=dlattach;attach=234821;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 20, 2016, 06:33:28 am
45min comparison with the Rigol 815 rendering now.
All I've got time for now, want to do a teardown tomorrow before it needs to go back.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 20, 2016, 06:33:38 am
Apologise if I have missed it, have someone injected or/and sweep a signal very close to the noise floor level, say -80dBm, is it properly displayed/measured?

Thanks.

After @Pinkus previous answer I take next small amount different and simple approach to Q
This also tell something about  levels measurement. It need know that always if we are near noise level, where ever it is with our settings, level measuremet is unreliable due to signal + noise is what then measure and if noise is near signal all we know that 1+1 is 2   and 1+-1 is 0 but if signal level is enough below signal 1+0.01 is 1.01 and 1+-0.01 is 0.99. Independent of brand, math realities are  same.

In these images signal source level is also quite reliable but if need real accuracy this need other methods. But source is HP8644B with optional better level accuracy. (also I check that using two calibration level 30dB external attenuator with -70dBm out result was same as direct -130dBm.



With these settings in image it can measure accurately 10dB over ref level (if someone wonder these yellow A traces.)
There is many basic fundamental things nicely explained in this application note (chaper levels). http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)

Traces C and  D with bit more narrow RBW  for get more distance to floor.
Note: Trace C Detector accidentally forget to Normal instead of P-Peak (but in this case result is same so no error, just quickly checked it)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234836;image)




NOTE: Att 50dB! (if you wonder noise level)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234834;image)
(sweep time is nice)

For clarify. Next image only changed is that i release  trace C from freeze (also changed to P-PK but no effect here).  A, B and D stay freezed)
After then I set turn Attenuator from 50 to 0dB.  Signal is exactly same -40dBm.
As can see noise level drops as expected and measured level stay close same so also attenuator do not have big error between 0dB position  and 50dB position.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234841;image)
Noise level do not drop 50dB (of course)
But signal level drop and this is what need happend.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cio74 on June 20, 2016, 06:36:05 am
Thanks, much appreciated.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: ted572 on June 20, 2016, 12:22:28 pm
Here is the 10MHz phase noise comparison at 10KHz offset with a -110dBc source.
No contest, the Siglent wins hands down. 

The Signet data provided looks flawed to me.  Please see comments here ->  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparison-rigol-dsa815-tg-with-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyzer/msg966028/#msg966028 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/comparison-rigol-dsa815-tg-with-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyzer/msg966028/#msg966028)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 20, 2016, 03:09:33 pm
In Daves video at around 38:30 it shows a unit with firmware 100.01.02.07.06.
I am wondering where this FW 07.06 comes from, as the latest official available firmware is 07.05?

Interestingly his unit has a serial # just approx. 30 larger than mine which was calibrated 2 weeks earlier. That makes an average of 3 finished units per day. So it seems they do not expect to flood the market at this moment.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markone on June 20, 2016, 10:41:51 pm
Here is the 10MHz phase noise comparison at 10KHz offset with a -110dBc source.
No contest, the Siglent wins hands down.

Personally i would consider this peculiar performance gap togheter with larger frequency coverage clear winner points against Rigol DS815, bigger screen is a nice addition.

I am eagerly waiting to see your tear down video, with the hope to see a decent internal build quality, because hammered metal shield, rust and solder balls would be clear deal breakers.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 20, 2016, 10:56:52 pm
In Daves video at around 38:30 it shows a unit with firmware 100.01.02.07.06.
I am wondering where this FW 07.06 comes from, as the latest official available firmware is 07.05?
I'm guessing it's a beta FW, we do occasionally get pre-release beta FW versions sent to us.
If it is we may have to wait a little for the next official FW release as the couple of bugs Dave spied might get fixed in the 7.xx.  :-\


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 21, 2016, 07:00:43 am
There is now so much talking about noise floor and phase noise things including misunderstandings and mixing things etc.

Close carrier phase noise is better what I expect with specifications. Specifications tell only Phase Noise for 10, 100 and 1000kHz offset and only for 1GHz.

Here 2 images.
First one is 10MHz carrier in center and 5MHz LSB and USB. Here used 1kHz RBW
Second image is also 10MHz carrier in center and then 10kHz LSB and USB.
Both images have 3:1 RBW/VBW

10MHz signal come from HP Z3801  owen (quite good phase noise also in near carrier where it beats normal cheap Rb's just completely) and holdoff (GPS antenna shutted off).

In first image there is 4 traces.
Trace B is for reference without signal (and then freezed) with all same settings.
Trace A Detector is Positive Peak
Trace C Detector is Normal
Trace D Detector is VideoAverage
No any trace averaging in use so that no one can develop paranoid thoughts what is hidden using average.


Second image  also have 4 traces.
Trace A detector is Pos Peak


Trace C is 20 times Trace Average from Detector: Pos Peak
Trace B detector is VideoAverage
Trace D is 20 times Trace Average from Detector: VideoAverage

Sidenote: When marker function is Noise marker do not use it for signal/peaks  level measurements. It is NOT for this!
Simplified: It force marker source trace input from VideoAverage detector output. (this is ok (only) for purposes what it is designed as its name tell). But it is not direct value from VideoAverage detector output. It show "noise corrected" 1Hz normalized value.
I have not ispected what correction values they exatly use. (this factor depends many internal details in filter shapes and detector details etc. In some individual case it looks like this value was 2.5dB.  (but my quess is that always in SSA3kX it is between 2.1 and 2.8dB (?))
So if you look VideoAverage and RBW is 1kHz... not -30dB from this but -27.5dB for Hz (noise).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=235054;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=235056;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2016, 01:32:01 pm
SPOILER!
NOTE: Not finished yet, I need to go home and get some sleep  :=\
Click for full res pic.
The 3.2GHz bit is obviously the preamp which can be switched in or out.

(https://c6.staticflickr.com/8/7301/27815910285_e0a47ba415_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JnZP36)Siglent RF Section Block Diagram (NOT FINISHED) (https://flic.kr/p/JnZP36) by Dave Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on June 21, 2016, 03:45:04 pm
The signal flow is a bit wrong on the above picture, my take at it is as follows:

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on June 21, 2016, 09:40:53 pm
Yes, there's lots wrong with the labelling at the moment.

If you send me an unmarked version I'll mark it up with some more detail with what I think is correct. I think the main (1st LO) VCO is the Zcomm part in the metal can that you have marked as VCO.

To get the full LO1 range this has to be doubled and then the doubled output has to pass through one of three interdigital BPFs before it reaches the first mixer. So you have the yellow arrow direction backwards through the three LO1 BPFs.

The section you have labelled MAIN  VCO LO1 looks like the VCO for LO2 to me. The yellow signal path arrows through the first IF along the bottom of the image looks to be backwards to me as well.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on June 21, 2016, 09:52:31 pm
There also appears to be an optional/switchable (narrow?) BPF at the final IF to the left of U86 but these SMD parts aren't fitted. This option at the final IF may be to minimise the BW fed to the ADC when the full IF bandwidth isn't required.

If the (locked out?) control for this is found in the firmware and unlocked then you could fit a BPF with BW of your own choice and select it from the UI.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on June 21, 2016, 10:52:23 pm
Looking at the microstrip dimensions (and the pale colour of the PCB dielectric material) the top layer PCB material is likely to be Rogers 4003C or 4350 at 0.020" thick.

If so, you could guesstimate the frequency of the first IF by measuring the resonator length in the first IF filter. It's going to be somewhere around 4GHz. Probably 4.4GHz? But that's just a guess based on a guess at the PCB material and a guess at the frequency plan. Looking at the resonator spacing, the filter is going to be quite wide. Probably 500MHz wide?
Each one of the three LO1 BPFs needs to be about 1GHz wide to cover the total 3GHz tuning range for LO1 and the resonator spacing in these filters looks to be about right for this bandwidth.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 21, 2016, 11:01:31 pm
Yes, Z-COMM unit is the 1st LO I think.
I must engage brain next time. I'll start again.
Original photo is here:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/27749729501/ (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/27749729501/)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on June 21, 2016, 11:18:11 pm
The amplifier on the 1st IF is a hmc716, so the frequency is between 3.1 and 3.9GHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on June 22, 2016, 12:13:29 am
It is also nice to see they have used an elliptic / Cauer low pass microstrip filter (bottom left corner). It is the first time I have seen one in the wild.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: G0HZU on June 22, 2016, 12:20:26 am
The amplifier on the 1st IF is a hmc716, so the frequency is between 3.1 and 3.9GHz.

It might be down as low as 3.9GHz but that would mean that the IF rejection spec for the input LPF would be quite tough to meet.

Also, LO2 is clearly a low side LO wrt IF1 and if the IF2 is 810MHz then this would mean that LO2 would sit inside the analyser's main tuning range of 0 to 3200MHz. Even with IF1 at 3.9GHz this would happen.

But it's late and I can't think so clearly right now...  off to bed...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 03:02:46 am
Anyone know what a 955C SOT23-6 is?
buggered if I can find it.
Obviously some RF switch

(http://i.imgur.com/imOFezP.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on June 22, 2016, 03:12:14 am
Those are all SPDT RF switches. I couldn't find the manufacturer.

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 04:15:00 am
This is a better effort:

(https://c8.staticflickr.com/8/7352/27829964535_82928e40b7_n.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/JpeQSK)SiglentRF-Final (https://flic.kr/p/JpeQSK) by Dave Jones (https://www.flickr.com/photos/eevblog/), on Flickr
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on June 22, 2016, 04:55:26 am
Do we know yet what the real-time FFT span is?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: radar_macgyver on June 22, 2016, 05:24:46 am
They did well to choose the HMC835 for the second LO PLL. It has a low phase noise on its own and really shines when combined with an external VCO with a higher Q. I've used it in conjunction with Zcomm's coaxial resonant oscillators to make some compact, low phase noise synthesizers. I haven't played with the HMC703, but it looks like it has the same frac-N core as the 835.

I'm also hoping that Siglent will implement some dynamic parameter switching on these PLLs to tune up the close-in phase noise in certain modes. Agilent does this on the MXA and PXAs, which offer a low phase noise mode that trades off sweep speed for lower close-in noise.

Can anyone read the part number on U83/U84 (bottom right of picture)?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: EEVblog on June 22, 2016, 05:34:25 am
Can anyone read the part number on U83/U84 (bottom right of picture)?

HMC860, HMC976, linear regs
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on June 22, 2016, 07:36:49 pm
Do we know yet what the real-time FFT span is?

The SAW filters have a 3dB BW of 15MHz and a flat passband region of 6Mhz, so I would guess the real time range is around 10MHz?

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 25, 2016, 11:18:28 am
There is real bug when SAA3000X is in SSA3021X mode.

Not analyzed more due to lot of  queyed works.

Detector VideoAverage, Average mode LogPower, when using very wide Span (example full span)  and RBW1kHz (most narrow RBW with very wide span).  Average mode Power or Voltage looks like ok.
With RBW3kHz all  is ok.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 25, 2016, 04:31:19 pm
I do not know what happend to image quality visible in forum. If you download image then it looks ok. It looks like forum reduce image size??
Oups...it is MY browser/display!



(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/SSA3000X/SSA3k-esku/SSA3000X-32-NoiseLevel.png)
Mode:  3.2GHz



(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/SSA3000X/SSA3k-esku/SSA3000X-21-NoiseLevel.png)
Mode: 2.1GHz

(note: With full span RBW1k detector VideoAverage is wrong. This is why I use detector "Sample" and trace averaged (only 10 times due to long sweep time.)
And also some other small details different but this because bit different detector and trace average settings when it was running.

 2.1GHz model  and 3.2GHz model,  all traces are stopped (there read "Viev"  what means it is freezed. Reason for this was simply. If I accidentally hit something I do not loose long time acquisition (look sweep time and multiply it least ten)

In all trace C imply DANL dBm/Hz 
(math is used for 1kRBW to 1HzRBW and then noise level correction using constant 3dB)

Input terminated by 50ohm.



(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/SSA3000X/SSA3k-esku/SSA3000X-32-NoiseLevel-888MHz.png)
3.2GHz

(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/SSA3000X/SSA3k-esku/SSA3000X-21-NoiseLevel-888MHz.png)
2.1GHz

In these added 888.88MHz  -100dBm carrier.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 25, 2016, 08:12:05 pm
Pic.....
Mode:  3.2GHz

Pic....
Mode: 2.1GHz


 2.1GHz model  and 3.2GHz model, 
How did yo do that^^^
Have you 2 units or 1 improved model?  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 26, 2016, 06:07:23 am
Pic.....
Mode:  3.2GHz

Pic....
Mode: 2.1GHz


 2.1GHz model  and 3.2GHz model, 
How did yo do that^^^
Have you 2 units or 1 improved model?  >:D

Magic under the polar lights, dual personality, speaks during the day and at night she howls like a wolf.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 26, 2016, 06:37:29 am
Pic.....
Mode:  3.2GHz

Pic....
Mode: 2.1GHz


 2.1GHz model  and 3.2GHz model, 
How did yo do that^^^
Have you 2 units or 1 improved model?  >:D

Magic under the polar lights, dual personality, speaks during the day and at night she howls like a wolf.
:-DD
I thought that might be so.   ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on June 26, 2016, 06:38:32 am
Pic.....
Mode:  3.2GHz

Pic....
Mode: 2.1GHz


 2.1GHz model  and 3.2GHz model, 
How did yo do that^^^
Have you 2 units or 1 improved model?  >:D

Magic under the polar lights, dual personality, speaks during the day and at night she howls like a wolf.

I didn't realise you guys were both from Taupaki

 :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on June 26, 2016, 02:30:45 pm
Something about level flatness.

This test is not real level accuracy and flatness test.
But this may still tell something. (Trace B)
 Least that there is flatness correction table "in home" what is generated in factory calibration.
More deep real test need very accurate power meter, calibration grade precision splitter and other needed things.
But for bit better trust I did it with two very different cable: 25cm RG223 and 300cm Suhner Sucoflex 104-PE. Also I know this my HP8642B individual unit have good flatness. Far better than  crap HP8657B.  More accurate is HP8644B (with better than standard accuracy) but my unit go only to 1G so this is why 42B.

(with noise floor shape traces I have used different RBW)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=236168;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on June 27, 2016, 12:36:26 pm
.... 2)  there is a free PC software called EasySpectrum, this works good. You can save the screen picture to PC with a black or white background.
@Deuze: On my SSA3021x with firmware 07.05, the software Easyspectrum will not start. It shows an errror message that my firmware is not the latest one (which it is). When I downgrade to 07.03, everything is fine. Can you confirm this behaviour on your machine too?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on June 27, 2016, 09:48:56 pm
If the video is done well, it can be watched both by beginners and more advanced users.
Please check my posting more careful :)

Basically the videos from Shahriar, lack structure, and don't take up the classical formal tests from the start to the end.

With proper structure in place, educational explanations on a blackboard in between, to not only focus
on the instrument as such, but also about the background technology related to spectrum analyzers, you can do a video that is both learnful, not boring, includes variation, and which is accessible to beginners and more advanced users. With an index at the beginning advanced users can start the video at the proper section.

Like I said before: I think we are looking for a 3rd type of video blogger, next to Dave/Jack and Shahriar.

Nobody is perfect. And there is always room for improvement. If only more video bloggers and forum users would realize this :)

To come back on the topic of the videos made by Shahriar.

Here is an example video, that demonstrates the same approach of Shahriar: Trying to impress by rambling technical buzz words, without any overall structure in the video whatsoever, resulting in a video that is totally useless to people who are not already experts in the field.

https://youtu.be/Gl1FHUIWNzY?t=49 (https://youtu.be/Gl1FHUIWNzY?t=49)

Note that people who are already experts in the field don't need these videos in the first place :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TeusTukker on July 03, 2016, 01:46:33 pm
.... 2)  there is a free PC software called EasySpectrum, this works good. You can save the screen picture to PC with a black or white background.
@Deuze: On my SSA3021x with firmware 07.05, the software Easyspectrum will not start. It shows an errror message that my firmware is not the latest one (which it is). When I downgrade to 07.03, everything is fine. Can you confirm this behaviour on your machine too?
On mine with version 07.05 is connected to LAN and shows up in the Home network list in the ADSL modem. However, in the "Connect" dialog box it does not show up (It shows my SDM3055 though). It is a bug  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on July 03, 2016, 04:40:34 pm
.... 2)  there is a free PC software called EasySpectrum, this works good. You can save the screen picture to PC with a black or white background.
@Deuze: On my SSA3021x with firmware 07.05, the software Easyspectrum will not start. It shows an errror message that my firmware is not the latest one (which it is). When I downgrade to 07.03, everything is fine. Can you confirm this behaviour on your machine too?
On mine with version 07.05 is connected to LAN and shows up in the Home network list in the ADSL modem. However, in the "Connect" dialog box it does not show up (It shows my SDM3055 though). It is a bug  :(
I did connect it through USB (the connector on the back side) to the PC, not LAN.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TeusTukker on July 03, 2016, 07:42:09 pm
So, both LAN and USB do not work. I noticed today: if I leave EasySpectrum running and the connect dialog open sometimes the SSA will say "press escape to go local". So the PC it is trying to connect.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 03, 2016, 07:52:44 pm
On mine with version 07.05 is connected to LAN and shows up in the Home network list in the ADSL modem. However, in the "Connect" dialog box it does not show up (It shows my SDM3055 though). It is a bug  :(
Welcome to the forum.

There is a good chance Siglent are aware of this and you may have noticed the unit Dave did his EEVblog review with had FW version 7.06 installed. We have yet to see this version offered publicly however I'll point Siglent tech support to your post so we can get some idea if there is an outstanding LAN connection problem and when it will be fixed.
So, both LAN and USB do not work. I noticed today: if I leave EasySpectrum running and the connect dialog open sometimes the SSA will say "press escape to go local". So the PC it is trying to connect.
Interesting.....
Other members have posted screenshots from both USB and LAN connection, and yes and I see you have SDM3055 that apparently works with both USB and LAN so we'll ask tech support for pointers for a fix.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 05, 2016, 10:03:21 am
New Firmware for SSA3000X series

Version: P07.07
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SSA3000X-P07.07.rar (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SSA3000X-P07.07.rar)
7.2 Mb

Changelog from website

1.   Add “amplitude correction editing functions”
2.   Add “input impedance switching function between 50? and 75?”
3.   Add “jpg format screenshot function”
4.   Add “Reset & Clear function”
5.   Fixed “problem of loading U disk is slow”
6. Separate the “File Type” into “View Type” and “Save Type” in the file menu.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on July 05, 2016, 01:57:43 pm
There is also a new version of the EasySpectrum software available at

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/Easyspectrum.rar (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/Easyspectrum.rar)

It is Version P.03.01 and does require the
FW version 100.01.02.07.07 on your SSA3000X spectrum analyzer.

We have not tried it out yet but it is said to include:
* Spectrum Monitor Function - 2D/3D display
* Supports TOI measurement
* Improved / Re-edited Help files

We will take a look at it this week.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 05, 2016, 06:02:09 pm
Dear Siglent,
Have you investigated the issue with a ghost frequency that Dave reported in his review video?
He could find a ghost frequency in the spectrum, that seemed to come from the internal electronics in the spectrum analyzer itself.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on July 05, 2016, 07:21:56 pm
Dear Siglent,
Have you investigated the issue with a ghost frequency that Dave reported in his review video?
He could find a ghost frequency in the spectrum, that seemed to come from the internal electronics in the spectrum analyzer itself.

Hi Pascal_Sweden,

Are you referring to the spur at about 1 GHz that was around -138 dBm?
I just tried that here with the same setup conditions Dave had and got the same thing.

I will check with the spectrum analyzer engineering product manager and see what he can tell us about that.
Thanks.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TeusTukker on July 05, 2016, 08:31:30 pm
There is a good chance Siglent are aware of this and you may have noticed the unit Dave did his EEVblog review with had FW version 7.06 installed. We have yet to see this version offered publicly however I'll point Siglent tech support to your post so we can get some idea if there is an outstanding LAN connection problem and when it will be fixed.
I updated my SSA to version 07.07, EasySpectrum to 03SP1, and the VISA drivers to 15.5 and it works now!  :popcorn:

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 05, 2016, 08:49:54 pm
Internal spurious  are normal in many receivers, including spectrum analyzers.
Input related and also not input related spurs.

Here example from Rohde&Schwarz FSC
https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/FSC_dat-sw_en_5214-3330-22_v0200.pdf (https://cdn.rohde-schwarz.com/pws/dl_downloads/dl_common_library/dl_brochures_and_datasheets/pdf_1/FSC_dat-sw_en_5214-3330-22_v0200.pdf)

Some characters can not show... if need, read pdf.
Quote
Image frequencies
fin – 2 × 21.4 MHz < –70 dBc, typ. –80 dBc
fin – 2 × 831.4 MHz < –70 dBc, typ. –90 dBc
fin – 2 × 4881 MHz –60 dBc
Intermediate frequencies
21.4 MHz, 831.4 MHz, 4881.4 MHz –60 dBc, typ. –80 dBc
8931.4 MHz –50 dBc

Other interfering signals,
signal level – RF attenuation < –20 dBm
f ? 3.6 GHz
spurious at fin – 2440.7 MHz < –60 dBc
3.6 GHz < f ? 6 GHz
spurious at fin – 4465.7 MHz < –60 dBc

Other interfering signals,
related to local oscillators
f ? 3.6 GHz
?f < 300 kHz –60 dBc
?f ? 300 kHz < –60 dBc
f > 3.6 GHz
?f < 300 kHz –54 dBc
?f ? 300 kHz < –54 dBc
f = receive frequency

Residual spurious response
input matched with 50 ohm,
without input signal, RBW < 30 kHz,
f ? 3 MHz, RF attenuation = 0 dB,
tracking generator = OFF
< –90 dBm


Siglent SSA3000X specifications

Quote
Residual response (= Residual spurious response)
input terminated = 50 ohm, attenuation = 0 dB
<-90 dBm,typ.


And afaik they are well below (better) than specified (typical) limit.


Just simplified, and there can be much more than just these named...
http://rf-design.blogspot.fi/2008/07/spectrum-analyzer-residual-spurious.html (http://rf-design.blogspot.fi/2008/07/spectrum-analyzer-residual-spurious.html)

Quote
Spectrum Analyzer Residual Spurious Response

When the RF input is terminated, the spectrum analyzer may still show discrete responses while the LO's are sweeping. This occurs because at certain LO frequencies, the harmonics of the first and second LO mix together forming a product that is equal to an IF frequency. If this "spurious" IF frequency gets into the IF path, the detector will see a signal and therefor the display will show a blip at the RF frequency where m*LO1-n*LO2 = +/-IF. IF can be any of the IF frequencies in the instrument.

Using Google there can find lot of reading for whole rest of life about spurs, in theory and in practice. Spectrum analyzer IS just one kind of heterodyne receiver.

Of course it is important to reduce these spurs as far as reasonable but if need really clean all we do not have enough money for buy these.

I can not see any serious issue in SSA3000Xrelated to internal spurs. But, user is good to know these scatter spur frequencies just as example 1540MHz, 1905MHz etc. Oh and 20nVrms level 1GHz in my test SA. Is it 10 fW (0.01pW)  in 50ohm system?

It is nice if Siglent can attenuate/reduce these but many times it is hard (and some times also hard core) rf-designers hardware work.
There is many other much more important things to do.

In all T&M instruments, all what you see are errors and lies mixed with illusions of reality.

 

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pherdie on July 06, 2016, 01:50:43 am
Re: New Firmware

Apparently no more system lock ups when manually adjusting the bandwidth!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 06, 2016, 03:39:09 am
Re: New Firmware

Apparently no more system lock ups when manually adjusting the bandwidth!
Thanks.
Please tell us more.....previous firmware? Was it an ongoing problem?

I don't think I've seen this problem mentioned before.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: KE5FX on July 06, 2016, 06:26:58 am
This is why you don't use nice round frequencies like 100 MHz in your equipment.  :-DD 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 06, 2016, 08:31:19 am
... issue with a ghost frequency that Dave reported in his review video?

What is small and what is big?
~0.3 attoWatt.  It is lot of. But also it is bit low...


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=238109;image)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on July 06, 2016, 12:13:50 pm
Yes, RF-Loop is absolutely correct regarding spurious responses. I had responded before I stopped to check the specification. With a spec of <-90 dBm, this -138 dBm spur would fall well within limits. Most any generator, spectrum analyzer or other source of RF / microwave is going to have unwanted harmonic and non-harmonic related responses.
Checking other manufacturers' spectrum analyzers in this class shows other models having similar specifications for Residual / Non-Harmonic related spurs.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 06, 2016, 12:46:38 pm
In all T&M instruments, all what you see are errors and lies mixed with illusions of reality.
:-+ Too bad this text is too long for a T-shirt though.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pherdie on July 06, 2016, 09:08:23 pm
Re: New Firmware

Apparently no more system lock ups when manually adjusting the bandwidth!
Thanks.
Please tell us more.....previous firmware? Was it an ongoing problem?

I don't think I've seen this problem mentioned before.  :-//

It was mentioned in a previous post and it occurred during Dave Jones' EEV Blog video review.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on July 08, 2016, 11:21:28 pm
Since I found the 30kHz RBW limit on the SSA3X Analyzers (when the TG is active) a little awkward (see here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408)), and while "rf-loop" correctly pointed out that this shouldn't be a problem, I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the matter of the tracking generator in this machine.

What made me really wonder is that I wasn't able to get a proper parallel resonance dip with a very accurate 1MHz crystal, whatever I tried -- there was always some kind of "hills and valleys" where the dip should be visible. Also the series resonance peak appeares a little "wiggly", see the screenshots in the above link.

Other (less accurate) crystals measure fine without any visible artefacts. The difference is that the mentioned "high accuracy crystal" has a very small frequency span between series and parallel resonance, it's just about 950Hz whereas more common crystals have spacings more like several tens of kilohertz. The reading cannot be an inherent characteristic of the crystal since on my other SA (Rigol 815TG) and also on my 8753C VNA it measures fine. So the problem has to be related to the way the TG in the SSA3X works.

As I reported in the contribution linked above, I found the TG of the Siglent analyzer to produce some "wobble" in the frequency while scanning, and I wanted to undestand better why it does so and what it means. With the TG signal viewed on the scope, it appeard the wobble gets worse when the video bandwidth (VBW) is increased (resolution bandwidth of the analyzer anyways preset at 30kHz for the small spans). So I hooked up the Siglent's TG output to my Rigol DSA to get an idea of the spectrum and guess I was surprised what I found: It seems the increments are not the same over the whole VBW range but get bigger with incresing VBW setting. Moreover, it seems there is some kind or relationship with the "frequency wobble" and the scan of the SA input (it's difficult for me to explain but otherwise it would be impossible for the "hills and valleys" of the very narrow bandwidth crystal to appear). Please see the attached screenshot of the TG scan shape of my "slightly tuned" SSA3X. The basic settings are always the same (center frequency 1MHz, span 3kHz, TG 0dBm, 30kHz RBW, sweep time approx. 12s, changing the "frequency step" has no effect on the TG scan pattern. The scans on the Rigol were done with "max hold" trace, summed up over approx. 20 minutes each. The cyan trace resembles 10Hz VBW, the magenta one 100Hz and the yellow one 1kHz VBW on the Siglent.

While the cyan trace should be able reproduce the characteristics of the high precision crystal fairly well, it actually causes a lot of artefacts while increaseing VBW settings just "smears" the curve. When I use the TG in the Siglent and the Rigol SA to display the spectrum (sweep time about 24s (Siglent) / 300ms (Rigol)), I need only about three scans to get a "half-way decent" spectrum of the Crystal while the Siglent alone simply generates artefacts. For comparison, a trace of the Rigol TG/SA is also shown.

I also noticed a small bug in the recent SSA3X firmware (7.07): When the device is configured to start with the last configuration when powering up, and it has been powered down with the TG enabled, the TG will be enabled upon power-up but the TG control light will stay off. I'm not sure if the TG should be enabled after power-up at all even if the Analyzer had been shut down with the TG on. But at least the TG indicator should be lit if it is turned on.

Otherwise, the SSA3X appears to be a decent device so far, yet I would appreciate if Siglent had a closer loog at the TG sweeping and if it may be possible to simply depend TG frequency step size on the sweep time so the user could decide to have a slow/accurate measurement or a faster but not as accurate one, especially since RBW is limited when using the TG.

Cheers,
Tom
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 09, 2016, 06:02:11 am
Broadly speaking agree.


I have also made some investigations and it is partially ok  but then there is also need for  improvement if we want SA-TG what can really use for DUT what have very steep and deep edges.  SA RBW is not so important (exept that it can use for hide problems in TG but also depending how  SA work. In full analog sweeping SA things are different)

Most important, mandatory,  is TG signal good quality(1).
If stepping sweep, there really can not be glitches in level or freq jitter - phase noise. Of course also SA side is important but this is other thing (when TG is perfect, then need also look SA side how it works for more or less perfect result)

1) Simply talking: If run pure fixed sine to example filter steep edge still get fixed level out. But then start "jittering" this frequency and it  is of course translated to AM modulation (note AM LSB and USB). Using sweep with RG and SA we just want see this AM modulation related to perfect sweep. But we do not want see AM modulation what is result from other freq change - jittering. More steep edge filter etc is our DUT more important is TG quality.

Now First: This example is how it need  look, this we need, Siglent! (exept RBW setting and truth that this take 1000 second)
(later how it looks with SSA TG)

This is made using External (step)Sweeping HP8644B generator instead of internal TG

And also this example do not at all have very deep and very steep level change with small freg delta
(60dB with <<10ppm  change in frequency is perhaps this kind of steep what I mean, is it for work with this kind of machine...all kind things can dream..)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239081;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 09, 2016, 10:06:27 am
...

(later how it looks with SSA TG)



Here..


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239109;image)

Here first image is one simple example with more steep changes (Note 600Hz/div) .  TG jitter together with RBW 30kHz start coming in and set limits...
Trace B. Same DUT ((Xtal) sweeped using Extrernal Sweep and others with SSA TG. 
Trace C is just for show where is bottom when input is open and when look traces A and D.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239135;image)

Second image is using other Xtal (not so steep) as DUT. Here response is not so steep and no problem visible.
Problems start as shown in first image where is much more steep response as TurboTom has previously been well presented.

Note 2500Hz/div. 

TurboTom tests and also my tests can show what kind of limits is its usability. If you work out from these limits all is ok. If user reach these limits he can still use it but the interpretation of the results requires knowledge and experience with the device. If go more deep over limits it can say, game is over. Every equipment have limits. If can not live with these limits then need other kind of equipment.
If there come improvement then it come. But this is true now and with this user need live now.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: jjoonathan on July 09, 2016, 04:12:31 pm
Speaking of knowing limitations, I keep hearing that the sweep rate isn't quite as good for wide spans as the DSA815 (which reports 50ms SWT for SPAN=1.5GHz RBW=1MHz but due to crippled update rate only squeezes in 4 or 5 sweeps a second). I can see the slower sweep time in the eevblog 3000x review video, but I believe this was with sweep type set to "accuracy" rather than "speed" -- what is SWT (and update rate) of SPAN=1.5GHz RBW=1MHz on the "speed" setting? Can you manually adjust it to be even faster?

I'd love to swap out my 815 and get the better BW, noise floor, and max update rate of the 3000x, but one of my major use-cases of the 815 is for "wide span surveys" and I'd hate to take a step back on that front without knowing what I'm getting into.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on July 09, 2016, 11:11:39 pm
"Standard" sweep times for wide band scans are worse than with the Rigol, yet the preset sweep time can be overridden and reduced ("uncal" will be displayed in the upper left corner of the screen). Sweep times and screen update rates appear to follow some funny relation, standard sweep time for 0...1.5GHz (to resemble the DSA815) in "speed" setting is 144ms and screen update frequency is approx. 3.1 Hz (??). Sweep time can be reduced to 24ms which results in approx. 12.6Hz screen update rate, albeit at considerable more noise and artefacts. A somwhat acceptable trade-off between accuracy and fast reaction appears to be the combination of the fastest sweep time with a low count trace averaging (5...10 sweeps).

Narrow bandwidth scans are lighning-fast compared to the Rigol due to the FFT algorithm (if it suits the job).

I also did some more testing of the TG over the 3.2G range and found it to be catastrophically bad above approx. 2.5GHz. There's actually a dip at around 3GHz that reaches -5dBm after the device has warmed up (initially it's about 1dB better). Unfortunately, I haven't got a calibrated RF generator that covers the range up to >3GHz. All that I've got that's half-way suitable at all is one of these cheap Chinese USB synthesized sweep generators that run from 35MHz to 4.4GHz. I wanted to understand if the problem with the very ugly TG spectrum is actually the TG or the SA section (probably a little of both...). so I fed the signal of the "el-cheapo" sweep generator into the SA and set the sweep time very slow so i could get a more or less proper spectrum with a "max hold" trace over some 30 minutes. This is the yellow trace in the attached screenshot. The other three traces are of the internal TG of the siglent, yet with different connection cables:

The yellow trace with the sweep generator and the purple trace were taken with a high quality Suhner semi-rigid cable of approx. 20cm length (N to SMA / N to SMA-M plus quality SMA-F to N adapter).

The blue trace has been recorded with a DIY 30cm RG316 SMA-M to SMA-M cable and two quality SMA-F to N adapters.

Just out of interest, I used a cheap 80cm RG58 BNC cable and two BNC to N adapters for the green trace.

The comparison between the yellow and the purple traces (these are the only relevant ones) suggests that it's very probable that the calibration problem rather lies in the TG than the SA section since there aren't any obvious identical features between these two traces. So it will be necessary to have a look at the internal calibration data to see if it's possible to "tune" the TG to better match the 0dB line.

Cheers,
Thomas


Edit -- typo(s)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: jjoonathan on July 10, 2016, 12:27:17 am
I actually probed the DSA815 VCO at one point (well, its three VCOs, which have charming red LEDs under the RF shield to tell when each is active), and it wasn't lying about its sweep speed, just conveniently neglecting to mention the dead time -- I suspect the Siglent is the same way. The real question is why. I suspect it has something to do with the PLL, but I don't know enough about PLLs to speculate. It would be a real shame for an instrument with such modest compute requirements to be bottlenecked by computation in this day and age.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on July 10, 2016, 11:41:25 am
Okay - just had a look at the TG calibration, and - unfortunately - it's a joke... There's a file "cali_tg" that's just 135 bytes long. It contains the complete calibration data for the TG and looks like this (on my machine):

0 599300 4 599300 1244300 5 1244300 1324300 4 1324300 1569300 3 1569300 2834300 4 2834300 2884300 3 2884300 2964300 1 2964300 3200000 0

There are always three consequent values that belong togeter which define the frequency span segment and the attenuation value for that segment, i.e. the first segment spans from 0 to 599.3MHz and is attenuated by 4dB and so on. Actually, the band pass filters of the 1st LO switch over at input frequencies of 599.3MHz and 1569.3MHz. At these frequencies, there are also obviously calibration band edges configured.

I thought to myself "super -- let's change the calibration bands a little so they better match the spectrum of the particular TG in my machine", so initially I prepared a calibration file with all 0dB attenuation just to see the "natural" response of the TG and already got the first setback: There's a deep ditch of the TG at around 3GHz which (even unattenuated) drops down to approx. -5dBm when the machine has warmed up. When cold, it's about 2dB better. So this problem cannot be solved by mere software calibration, it would require a review of the TG hardware. My next attempt to calibrate the TG otherwise was also more or less a complete failure: It seems the calibration frequency bands are fixed and cannot be changed to slightly other values. So all I could do was modify the attenuation values of the existing bands a little which brought some minor improvement but no real change.

Unfortunately, I didn't record a trace with the original calibration so I can only show the TG without calibration (yellow trace) and with my new, modified calibration (magenta). Please keep in mind that the dip around 3GHz will get worse (by almost 2dB) when the instrument warms up, the attached screenshot was taken just minutes after powering up.

Room for improvement... but wait a moment, I bought a 2.1GHz spectrum analyzer and over this frequency range, the TG works okay. Everything else is my own problem...  ;)

Cheers,
Thomas



Edit: Attached the wrong screenshot...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on July 10, 2016, 12:40:45 pm
Just an idea: At everything > 2 Ghz  cables and connectors can play an important role.  Did you check them at a known system to be sure about their impact to the displayef response?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 10, 2016, 02:13:31 pm
Measured TG output directly  from connector. (Power sensor N directly in TG out N and all temperatures well stabilzed)
(This method of course include all RF what is coming out)

Reference level 0dBm @50MHz

TG level set 0dBm. TG in zero span mode and manually stepped from around 1MHz to 3200MHz.
Sensor calibrated to 0dBm @50MHz and for other freq used sensor correction table.

TG 50MHz out between 0 and  -0.1 dBm

from 1 to 3200MHz there is level variations mostly less than < +/-1dB and then  pair +/-2dB  and then one clear  most high and low:
-3.0 - -3.1dB @ 2996MHz 
+2.9 - +3.0dB @ 2468MHz

because my power sensors cal are obsolete I did same measurement with two sensor, 8481A and 8482A so I can trust result bit better. Both give so near same that in practice it can say "same".
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on July 10, 2016, 02:51:56 pm
So the TG is only in a +-2dB range up to approx. 2.7 Ghz.
Fine for me....  :) but good to know.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 10, 2016, 02:56:31 pm
So the TG is only in a +-2dB range up to approx. 2.7 Ghz.
Fine for me....  :) but good to know.

No, you do not know after my test. This do not tell your SSA! It tell my SSA in my test condition.
Every SSA is different!  This is why there is (afaik) personal correction table for every individual SSA.

Also sidenote.
Power meter measure total RF power out from TG N connector. It is NOT frequency selective!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 11, 2016, 12:22:57 am
If the spurious response comes from the device internals itself, isn't there an easy way to characterize the spurious response for a spectrum analyzer under no load, and calibrate, adjust, and eliminate it from the readings?

Or would that spurious response be unstable over time, depending on external parameters, such as electro-magnetic noise, interference, reflection, ambient temperature?

For comparison: Are all spectrum analyzers subject to this? How does the Rigol DSA185-TG perform on this front?

Is it too costly to make a spectrum analyzer with zero spurious response, or is it just impossible by design, based on the topology and build up of the various stages in the spectrum analyzer?

Are there different variations possible in the build up of the various stages in the spectrum analyzer,
and are some variations less subject to spurious response compared to others?

Is the build up of the stages in most spectrum analyzers the same or very similar, or are there 2 or more fundamental variations and approaches that are completely different from each other, and that have a completely different internal spurious response by design?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 11, 2016, 06:45:02 am

Is it too costly to make a spectrum analyzer with zero spurious response, or is it just impossible by design, based on the topology and build up of the various stages in the spectrum analyzer?


Not only too costly but also impossible.  Just as impossible as doing pure sinewave or ideal rectangle wave - or what ever ideal. School books with nice ideal sine and square are just so out from reality what can. In reality there is no pure sine wave, no exact time, no exact voltage, no ideal mixer, no ideal filter, no ideal amplifier...  you want more. As told previously, all what you see on oscilloscope or spectrum analyzer display are collection of errors mixed with undefined truth.

Too often I quote what Keyshit (former Agilent, former Hewlett-Packard) tell us.
Here from Tektronix.
Why they all talk about spurious, residuals etc. Rohde&Schwarz, Tektronix, Keysight, Anritzu, Advantest, and so on...


From "Fast, Low Level Spurious Search with
Tektronix Real-Time Signal Analyzers"
Quote
Considering the Spurious Performance of
Spectrum Analyzers


Measuring low level spurs requires care even when the
spectrum analyzer’s Displayed Average Noise Level has
sufficient margin to perform the required measurements.
All spectrum analyzers create artifacts or spurs that can
appear at low levels
. Some spurs are created internally by the
Spectrum Analyzer’s circuitry. Others are generated inside the
instrument as a result of input signal interactions with internal
signals and non-linear circuit behavior.
These unwanted
signals, typically related to harmonics of the input signal, are
highly dependent on the maximum signal level present in the
input, even when the large signal lies outside the displayed
span.


Residuals
Residual Spurious responses are internally generated spurs
that exist in all spectrum analyzers and are independent of
any input signal
. These unwanted signal components are
the result of imperfect isolation between the various signal
paths inside the spectrum analyzer and can come from digital
clocks, local oscillators or switching power supplies. Spectrum
analyzers are regularly used to measure spurs far below their
Residual Spurious specifications. One technique to account
for these residual signals is to measure them by taking a spur
sweep with the input terminated.
The resulting list of spur
locations and levels can be tabulated and then removed from
the subsequent measurement results. Residual Spurious
are expressed as an absolute power level, specified in dBm.
This means they do not change level with any input. The
specification for the RSA6120B is -90 dBm for frequencies
from 40 MHz to 200MHz, and -95 dBm (-110 dBm Typical)
from 200 MHz to 20 GHz. These signals must be well
understood to ensure they are not mistakenly included in the
results as they may not be from the DUT.



Spurious with Signal
Spurious with Signal Present or signal-related spurs are the
result of unintended interactions between the input signal
and the various internal clocks and local oscillators that are
part of the spectrum analyzer’s circuitry. Most signal-related
spurs are caused by non-linear behavior in the spectrum
analyzer’s circuitry and are highly dependent on the levels
of signals present at the spectrum analyzer input. There are
several types of signal-related spurs which are often specified
separately. They include image rejection, harmonics, third
order intermodulation, second order intermodulation, etc.
The specifications for signal-related spurs are usually in terms
of dB below the input signal level or dBc. Signal related
spurs specifications are especially relevant if a low level spur
search must be made in the presence of a high level signal.
Measuring spurs in a transmitter output, for example, may
require the measurement of spurs at the -120 dBm level as in
our example while the transmitters intended output signal has
a power of several watts. In these cases, it might be required
to filter out the transmitter’s signal (notch filter) to make sure
that its level does not exceed the input level specified in the
analyzer’s spurious specifications.
All spectrum analyzers publish spurious with signal
specifications that vary with acquisition BW and input
frequency at a specified level of input signal.
The RSA6120B,
for example, performance varies from -78 dBc to -70 dBc
depending settings with a maximum signal level of -25 dBm
after RF attenuation. The option 51 preamplifier, when used,
would typically achieve similar performance with a maximum
input signal at approximately a 30 dB lower level.

Harmonics
These unwanted signals can appear whenever the analyzer
is tuned to N times the frequency of a signal present at the
input (N is an integer). The most relevant is the 2nd-harmonic
specification (N=2). The RSA6100B Series specifies 80 dBc
harmonics for -25 dBm input signals with no RF attenuation
and preamplifier off. The Option 51 preamplifier, when used,
would typically achieve similar performance with a maximum
input signal at -55 dBm with no RF attenuation.
Predicting the spurious behavior with Input is usually more
difficult than harmonics or residual spurious. A detailed
analysis requires knowledge of the frequency conversion
stages internal to the Spectrum Analyzer (Local Oscillators,
IF frequencies, ADC clocks, etc.) These kinds of spurs will
be present at frequencies related the mixing of internal
frequencies and harmonics of the input. For example, if one of
the local oscillators in a spectrum analyzer is at 9 GHz, then
signals harmonically related to the combination of the input
signal and 9 GHz could show up as spurs.

How to recognize internally generated spurious what are not input related.

It is simple (mostly).

Terminate input and look if it is there.

Thumb rule: If you have signal connected. Change attenuator example 5 or 10dB. If it is your real signal its level do not change or change is minimimal. If it is spur what is there also if there is not input its level change around same amount as you change attenuator. (because this "signal" does not walk through the attenuation)

Type this phrase to Google: spectrum analyzer residual response

....and start reading.

Here SSA3000X most important normal input independent internally generated  "spurs"   and also one internally (input independent) generated spur compared to real input signal and changing attenuator level. There can see how real signal behave and iiis behave when change attenuator.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239601;image)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239603;image)
Correct: recognize
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 11, 2016, 07:34:35 am
Thanks for your detailed feedback! Really nice explanations and screenshots.

The screen composition of the Siglent is very well laid out, and looks very professional!

BTW: I noticed you are based in Finland. Greetings neighbour!
Only spurious response in spectrum analyzers, and no spurious response in ice hockey right? :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 15, 2016, 11:27:30 am
I won't profess to be any sort of SA expert, so some shots of my fiddlings using a simple 25mm diameter 50 ohm loop "sniffing" various emissions from a Samsung tablet

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=240557)

Loop

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=240559)

I'm quite impressed with the file management UI, you can maybe see some of it in the poor pic above but you can even capture a screenshot of it.  :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=240561)



More fiddling to come.  :popcorn:

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on July 21, 2016, 04:03:55 pm
What about the spurious response (both internal spurs without signals connected, or spurs as a result of the interaction with a connected signal) in an analog spectrum analyzer versus the spurious response in a digital spectrum analyzer?

Maybe analog spectrum analyzers are better in this field? Or are they worse?

How is the analog spectrum analyzer HP 8560E doing in this field, in comparison with the digital spectrum analyzer Siglent SSA3021X?  Any clear winner to identify in terms of low to zero spurious response? (both internal spurs without signals connected, or spurs as a result of the interaction with a connected signal)


If the spurious response comes from the device internals itself, isn't there an easy way to characterize the spurious response for a spectrum analyzer under no load, and calibrate, adjust, and eliminate it from the readings?

Or would that spurious response be unstable over time, depending on external parameters, such as electro-magnetic noise, interference, reflection, ambient temperature?

For comparison: Are all spectrum analyzers subject to this? How does the Rigol DSA185-TG perform on this front?

Is it too costly to make a spectrum analyzer with zero spurious response, or is it just impossible by design, based on the topology and build up of the various stages in the spectrum analyzer?

Are there different variations possible in the build up of the various stages in the spectrum analyzer,
and are some variations less subject to spurious response compared to others?

Is the build up of the stages in most spectrum analyzers the same or very similar, or are there 2 or more fundamental variations and approaches that are completely different from each other, and that have a completely different internal spurious response by design?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 21, 2016, 08:58:21 pm
What about the spurious response (both internal spurs without signals connected, or spurs as a result of the interaction with a connected signal) in an analog spectrum analyzer versus the spurious response in a digital spectrum analyzer?

Maybe analog spectrum analyzers are better in this field? Or are they worse?

How is the analog spectrum analyzer HP 8560E doing in this field, in comparison with the digital spectrum analyzer Siglent SSA3021X?  Any clear winner to identify in terms of low to zero spurious response? (both internal spurs without signals connected, or spurs as a result of the interaction with a connected signal)

As suggested study replies #298 and #314.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on July 22, 2016, 09:27:47 am
What about the spurious response (both internal spurs without signals connected, or spurs as a result of the interaction with a connected signal) in an analog spectrum analyzer versus the spurious response in a digital spectrum analyzer?

Maybe analog spectrum analyzers are better in this field? Or are they worse?
...

The difference between ‘analog’ and ‘digital’ spectrum analyzers is only in the final IF processing, where analog SAs basically have (quartz crystal) filter banks, whereas digital ones utilize a high resolution ADC and digital signal processor.

The RF part is basically always the same, i.e. some swept multi-conversion superheterodyne receiver - and this is where the spurs come from. It is mainly the non-ideal characteristics of amplifiers, mixers, filters and LO synthesizer(s) causing the spurs (both residual and input signal related ones).

So it is not a question of digital vs. analog, but the design of the RF part of the instrument. The Siglent SSA3000X appears pretty decent and I would be surprised to find any vintage SA that performs significantly better in terms of residual spurs. It might be something different when it comes to signal related spurs, particularly intermodulation products, where I assume that the SSA3000X is as good as the majority of SAs, but of course cannot compete with the few instruments optimized for high dynamic range like R&S FSEA30, probably not even with an old HP 8560 as this instrument also appears to perform above average in terms of 3rd order dynamic range.

Btw. The HP8560 are ‘digital’ as well, at least for RBWs of 100Hz and below.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2016, 01:17:59 am
More fiddlings  ^-^

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242687)

 :scared: My ~3 yr old Siglent SDG1010 non-external referenced AWG appears to be a whole 20 Hz out.  :rant:  ;)

AWG settings 10 MHz (max) @ 200 mV p-p.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2016, 06:23:19 am
So how accurate is a new SDG2042X ?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242725)

That's better, only 2 Hz off without an external reference.  :phew:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 23, 2016, 06:48:02 am
That's better, only 2 Hz off without an external reference.  :phew:


Impressive! At 40 MHz thats 50ppb isn't it? :-+

20Hz out in the previous post is 2ppm by the same logic.
I don't know if thats the correct way to calculate it, the beauty of EEVBlog is there is always someone who knows.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2016, 08:05:50 am
That's better, only 2 Hz off without an external reference.  :phew:


Impressive! At 40 MHz thats 50ppb isn't it? :-+

20Hz out in the previous post is 2ppm by the same logic.
I don't know if thats the correct way to calculate it, the beauty of EEVBlog is there is always someone who knows.
Not having a frequency counter I wasn't sure what to expect but I did know there are many that use the SDG1k series externally referenced and some even rework/replace the internal reference for better accuracy. There's quite a bit of discussion about that in the SDG1000 and 800 thread.
Being nosey and needing to become more familiar with SA's I just had to check.  ;D

However there's an Auto Cal setting in the SSA3kX I had turned off.  :palm:
After getting into that part of the UI I hit the Help for some info on it.
It first runs after 30 mins then at intervals after that.......If it's been done right the frequency of Auto Cal should be related to ambient temp variations.........well, IMO.

More fiddling needed.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2016, 11:02:57 am
Spurred on by the above results and gaining a little more confidence with basic use it was time to look at another sine wave output, this time from the inbuilt AWG in a SDS2000X DSO.

Autoset
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242767)

Yep, that's what is obtainable with just one push but look at the resolution bandwidth, no way I could see what I was looking for.

Autoset Zoom
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242769)

Better but the frequency Span and sweep values are still too large.

Manual
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242771)

A few tweaks later in manual mode revealed what I was looking for.
108 Hz out.  :scared:

But from the SDS2kX datasheet:
SDS2000X series AWG Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on July 23, 2016, 11:47:14 am
A few tweaks later in manual mode revealed what I was looking for.
108 Hz out.  :scared:

But from the SDS2kX datasheet:
SDS2000X series AWG Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm

Isn't it funny how all SDS2k(X) seem to run a little high in terms of internal reference frequency?

My measurements with 25MHz out of the WaveGen:
SDS2k: +440Hz (+17.6ppm)
SDS2kX: +333Hz (+13.3ppm)

My standalone Function Genrator is specified to +/-100ppm for 1 year over the temperature range of 18°C ~ 28°C, and right now it's +29.2°C here in my home lab and the instrument is several years old without recalibration. And guess what? It is just 38Hz high at 25MHz, which is only +1.5ppm. This is what I'm used to with all my equipment and I have always wondered why Siglent seems to struggle to do the same...

The winner amongst the SDS2k(X) instruments so far is your SDS2kX with just +108Hz (+4.3ppm).  :-+

Not sure how accurate the measurement with the SSA3kX is though. Yes, according to the data sheet, internal reference of the SA should be within 1ppm, but the marker peak search might also be a little off.

Unless the SA has a built-in true frequency counter (some have), it isn't the instrument of choice for me when it comes to highly accurate frequency measurements. Of course it should be fine as long as we're talking about a couple of ppm, but you really cannot trust it whenever you want accuracies better than that... ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 23, 2016, 02:52:33 pm
A few tweaks later in manual mode revealed what I was looking for.
108 Hz out.  :scared:

But from the SDS2kX datasheet:
SDS2000X series AWG Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm

Isn't it funny how all SDS2k(X) seem to run a little high in terms of internal reference frequency?

My measurements with 25MHz out of the WaveGen:
SDS2k: +440Hz (+17.6ppm)
SDS2kX: +333Hz (+13.3ppm)

My standalone Function Genrator is specified to +/-100ppm for 1 year over the temperature range of 18°C ~ 28°C, and right now it's +29.2°C here in my home lab and the instrument is several years old without recalibration. And guess what? It is just 38Hz high at 25MHz, which is only +1.5ppm. This is what I'm used to with all my equipment and I have always wondered why Siglent seems to struggle to do the same...

The winner amongst the SDS2k(X) instruments so far is your SDS2kX with just +108Hz (+4.3ppm).  :-+

Not sure how accurate the measurement with the SSA3kX is though. Yes, according to the data sheet, internal reference of the SA should be within 1ppm, but the marker peak search might also be a little off.

Unless the SA has a built-in true frequency counter (some have), it isn't the instrument of choice for me when it comes to highly accurate frequency measurements. Of course it should be fine as long as we're talking about a couple of ppm, but you really cannot trust it whenever you want accuracies better than that... ;)

Marker peak tracking is quite accurate. Much better than 1Hz resolution what it show. When follow it, it discipline very accurately to peak and follow it.  When I take this image it some times move ine pixel left or right and some times it also show 10MHz but mostly 1Hz less.

Signal is coming from Rb (Rb error sure less than +/- 5mHz but I do not promise more because there is time when I have adjusted it)
Same signal is also reference for HP83131A for measure SSA3000X 10MHz Ref Out.
It is bit high, (so,  SA readings bit low). When I take this image SSA Ref Out freq is around 10 000 000.430 Hz after over half hour stabilizing time (some first minutes it really sweep lot, nearly like ocxo)

But If turn (in marker functions) freq counter on (yes there is), there is some (perhaps systematic) small error. This counter resolution is 1Hz also with GHz range.
But, in this image it is not used. This is just with normal marker and tracking on.
Also if set scale to 10dB/div this peak top is wide but still it discipline marker very accurate to top middle, even when  part of trace peak  top looks straight horizontal line (due to TFT resolution) still marker is well adjusted to center


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 05:05:47 am
A few tweaks later in manual mode revealed what I was looking for.
108 Hz out.  :scared:

But from the SDS2kX datasheet:
SDS2000X series AWG Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm

Isn't it funny how all SDS2k(X) seem to run a little high in terms of internal reference frequency?

My measurements with 25MHz out of the WaveGen:
SDS2k: +440Hz (+17.6ppm)
SDS2kX: +333Hz (+13.3ppm)

My standalone Function Genrator is specified to +/-100ppm for 1 year over the temperature range of 18°C ~ 28°C, and right now it's +29.2°C here in my home lab and the instrument is several years old without recalibration. And guess what? It is just 38Hz high at 25MHz, which is only +1.5ppm. This is what I'm used to with all my equipment and I have always wondered why Siglent seems to struggle to do the same...

The winner amongst the SDS2k(X) instruments so far is your SDS2kX with just +108Hz (+4.3ppm).  :-+

Not sure how accurate the measurement with the SSA3kX is though. Yes, according to the data sheet, internal reference of the SA should be within 1ppm, but the marker peak search might also be a little off.

Unless the SA has a built-in true frequency counter (some have), it isn't the instrument of choice for me when it comes to highly accurate frequency measurements. Of course it should be fine as long as we're talking about a couple of ppm, but you really cannot trust it whenever you want accuracies better than that... ;)
Ha, funny how all these inbuilt AWG's so far have been a little high in frequency.
My nearly 3 yr old SDS2304 (HW 3.3)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242938)

476 Hz low.  :o
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on July 24, 2016, 08:55:57 am
476 Hz low.  :o

Oh, great news – thanks for checking that!

I already wondered if there is some systematic problem, but you have now proven that it’s not.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 09:09:06 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 09:25:54 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
::)
And you never took the moment to read rf-loops reply above.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 24, 2016, 10:08:17 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.

If my 10MHz reference x accuracy is specified so that error is under 1ppm then it is as long as do not know more about it.
I have measured my individual  10MHz reference x so that I know, its error is less than 0.1ppm.
I can use it with this knowledge and I do not care anything about what manufacturer specifications are as long as I know better my individual unit specs what I can write.  But, this do not claim anything how it is in other single individual same equipment with same manufacturer specs. It can be better or worse than my individual and if really do not know, only known thing is manufacturer specifications and its calibration certificate.

So, if one do not really know more then can claim only as specifications as long as cal certificate is valid.

So, if look something what show 25MHz then can tell it is 25MHz +/- 25Hz if there is not more available aabout accuracy than manufacturer this specification.

My measurements are based to one selected Trimble Tb and Z3801A GPS (or based to these some times readjusted Rb's). With accuracy what I need they are enough, but still not true NIST traceable. Real accuracy is not so simple thing, depending of course if we are satisfied with max 1ppm or  <0.1ppb error.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 10:17:08 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
::)
And you never took the moment to read rf-loops reply above.  :palm:
I just see a lot of comparing between various generators going on without mentioning what frequency reference is being used.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 24, 2016, 10:25:30 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
::)
And you never took the moment to read rf-loops reply above.  :palm:
I just see a lot of comparing between various generators going on without mentioning what frequency reference is being used.

It looks like name Siglent generate some biased blind point in your eyes.

Years I have told in many places, including also in this thread what kind of references I use.
Btw, if you do not see in SSA3000X display left top reading Ext Reference it use its internal reference. Is it difficult to know then.
If there read Ext Ref then it can not know if not explained. Difficult?

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 10:42:48 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
::)
And you never took the moment to read rf-loops reply above.  :palm:
I just see a lot of comparing between various generators going on without mentioning what frequency reference is being used.

It looks like name Siglent generate some biased blind point in your eyes.
I guess my name has the same effect on you  :) So no, I was just making a comment about Tautech's screendumps and the good habit of questioning the meaning of measurement results in general. He compares his generators with eachother and makes comments on their frequency being off based on -appearantly- the clock in his spectrum analyser. Statiscally it is odd that all generators he tested deviate in the same direction. It could happen but it requires some more investigation to determine whether his spectrum analyser is a bit off or the generators all are slightly high. When measuring 10MHz the 1ppm reference in the spectrum analyser has an error of +/-10Hz. At >50ppm accuracy the SDG1010 may be off by +/-500Hz at 10MHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 10:52:03 am
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
::)
And you never took the moment to read rf-loops reply above.  :palm:
I just see a lot of comparing between various generators going on without mentioning what frequency reference is being used.

It looks like name Siglent generate some biased blind point in your eyes.
I guess my name has the same effect on you  :) So no, I was just making a comment about Tautech's screendumps and the good habit of questioning the meaning of measurement results in general. He compares his generators with eachother and makes comments on their frequency being off based on -appearantly- the clock in his spectrum analyser. Statiscally it is odd that all generators he tested deviate in the same direction. It could happen but it requires some more investigation to determine whether his spectrum analyser is a bit off or the generators all are slightly high. When measuring 10MHz the 1ppm reference in the spectrum analyser has an error of +/-10Hz. At >50ppm accuracy the SDG1010 may be off by +/-500Hz at 10MHz.
My turn.
Do your eyes not work?
A few tweaks later in manual mode revealed what I was looking for.
108 Hz out.  :scared:

But from the SDS2kX datasheet:
SDS2000X series AWG Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm

Isn't it funny how all SDS2k(X) seem to run a little high in terms of internal reference frequency?

My measurements with 25MHz out of the WaveGen:
SDS2k: +440Hz (+17.6ppm)
SDS2kX: +333Hz (+13.3ppm)

My standalone Function Genrator is specified to +/-100ppm for 1 year over the temperature range of 18°C ~ 28°C, and right now it's +29.2°C here in my home lab and the instrument is several years old without recalibration. And guess what? It is just 38Hz high at 25MHz, which is only +1.5ppm. This is what I'm used to with all my equipment and I have always wondered why Siglent seems to struggle to do the same...

The winner amongst the SDS2k(X) instruments so far is your SDS2kX with just +108Hz (+4.3ppm).  :-+

Not sure how accurate the measurement with the SSA3kX is though. Yes, according to the data sheet, internal reference of the SA should be within 1ppm, but the marker peak search might also be a little off.

Unless the SA has a built-in true frequency counter (some have), it isn't the instrument of choice for me when it comes to highly accurate frequency measurements. Of course it should be fine as long as we're talking about a couple of ppm, but you really cannot trust it whenever you want accuracies better than that... ;)

Marker peak tracking is quite accurate. Much better than 1Hz resolution what it show.
When follow it, it discipline very accurately to peak and follow it.  When I take this image it some times move ine pixel left or right and some times it also show 10MHz but mostly 1Hz less.

Signal is coming from Rb (Rb error sure less than +/- 5mHz but I do not promise more because there is time when I have adjusted it)
Same signal is also reference for HP83131A for measure SSA3000X 10MHz Ref Out.
It is bit high, (so,  SA readings bit low). When I take this image SSA Ref Out freq is around 10 000 000.430 Hz after over half hour stabilizing time (some first minutes it really sweep lot, nearly like ocxo)

But If turn (in marker functions) freq counter on (yes there is), there is some (perhaps systematic) small error. This counter resolution is 1Hz also with GHz range.
But, in this image it is not used. This is just with normal marker and tracking on.
Also if set scale to 10dB/div this peak top is wide but still it discipline marker very accurate to top middle, even when  part of trace peak  top looks straight horizontal line (due to TFT resolution) still marker is well adjusted to center



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 11:19:08 am
Resolution is something different than accuracy. With an internal reference accuracy of 1ppm in the SSA3000 measuring a 1GHz signal has an accuracy of +/-1000Hz so when the marker says it is at 1 000 000 000 Hz in reality the frequency can be anywhere between 999 999 000 Hz and 1 000 001 000 Hz.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 11:33:26 am
Resolution is something different than accuracy. With an internal reference accuracy of 1ppm in the SSA3000 measuring a 1GHz signal has an accuracy of +/-1000Hz so when the marker says it is at 1 000 000 000 Hz in reality the frequency can be anywhere between 999 999 000 Hz and 1 000 001 000 Hz.
Oh for heavens sake.
rf-loop has made that statement based on fact.....by verification of the frequency counters accuracy.

Do you doubt he has the equipment to do that?

If you're an persistent doubter, grow some balls and go and get one to check it out for yourself.
You may have had a disappointing experience with Siglent equipment before but surely you've lived long enough to know and have seen companies improve their product, or are you so blind you cannot see?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 12:16:48 pm
Resolution is something different than accuracy. With an internal reference accuracy of 1ppm in the SSA3000 measuring a 1GHz signal has an accuracy of +/-1000Hz so when the marker says it is at 1 000 000 000 Hz in reality the frequency can be anywhere between 999 999 000 Hz and 1 000 001 000 Hz.
Oh for heavens sake.
rf-loop has made that statement based on fact.....by verification of the frequency counters accuracy.

Do you doubt he has the equipment to do that?
I don't doubt rf-loop has the equipment to do that but the thing is that when it comes to drawing conclusions from measurements you have to go by the accuracy specification for the instrument. If rf-loop's SSA3000X happends to be accurate within 0.05ppm (for example) that doesn't mean the SSA3000X you have or which I could get has the same (initial) accuracy. Siglent specifies it will be accurate within 1ppm over a certain time and temperature range so that is as sure as you can get without using an external (more accurate) frequency reference.

For example: earlier this year I bought a Keysight 6.5 digit DMM for a project. It's calibration sheet shows the readings during factory calibration are well within it's accuracy specification but still I can't say it will always perform better than specified based because it worked so well during it's factory calibration. It has been transported, went through temperature cycles, was switched on/off several times, humidity changes, etc which could have changed it's reference a little bit. Keysight's specs guarantees it will meet a certain level of accuracy but there is no way for me to tell how much it has actually drifted.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 12:31:15 pm
Resolution is something different than accuracy. With an internal reference accuracy of 1ppm in the SSA3000 measuring a 1GHz signal has an accuracy of +/-1000Hz so when the marker says it is at 1 000 000 000 Hz in reality the frequency can be anywhere between 999 999 000 Hz and 1 000 001 000 Hz.
Oh for heavens sake.
rf-loop has made that statement based on fact.....by verification of the frequency counters accuracy.

Do you doubt he has the equipment to do that?
I don't doubt rf-loop has the equipment to do that but the thing is that when it comes to drawing conclusions from measurements you have to go by the accuracy specification for the instrument. If rf-loop's SSA3000X happends to be accurate within 0.05ppm (for example) that doesn't mean the SSA3000X you have or which I could get has the same (initial) accuracy. Siglent specifies it will be accurate within 1ppm over a certain time and temperature range so that is as sure as you can get without using an external (more accurate) frequency reference.

For example: earlier this year I bought a Keysight 6.5 digit DMM for a project. It's calibration sheet shows the readings during factory calibration are well within it's accuracy specification but still I can't say it will always perform better than specified based because it worked so well during it's factory calibration. It has been transported, went through temperature cycles, was switched on/off several times, humidity changes, etc which could have changed it's reference a little bit. Keysight's specs guarantees it will meet a certain level of accuracy but there is no way for me to tell how much it has actually drifted.
:blah:  :blah:  :blah:
I'm calling you out as a troll.

You made this post:
Be carefull which reference point to choose. Basically you can't measure more accurately than the accuracy specs of the clock source in the SA or generator.
::)
And you never took the moment to read rf-loops reply above.  :palm:
I just see a lot of comparing between various generators going on without mentioning what frequency reference is being used.

It looks like name Siglent generate some biased blind point in your eyes.
I guess my name has the same effect on you  :) So no, I was just making a comment about Tautech's screendumps and the good habit of questioning the meaning of measurement results in general. He compares his generators with eachother and makes comments on their frequency being off based on -appearantly- the clock in his spectrum analyser. Statiscally it is odd that all generators he tested deviate in the same direction. It could happen but it requires some more investigation to determine whether his spectrum analyser is a bit off or the generators all are slightly high. When measuring 10MHz the 1ppm reference in the spectrum analyser has an error of +/-10Hz. At >50ppm accuracy the SDG1010 may be off by +/-500Hz at 10MHz.
Again you fail to read a post for the info contained within and are blatantly trolling.

A few tweaks later in manual mode revealed what I was looking for.
108 Hz out.  :scared:

But from the SDS2kX datasheet:
SDS2000X series AWG Frequency Accuracy ±50 ppm

Isn't it funny how all SDS2k(X) seem to run a little high in terms of internal reference frequency?

My measurements with 25MHz out of the WaveGen:
SDS2k: +440Hz (+17.6ppm)
SDS2kX: +333Hz (+13.3ppm)

My standalone Function Genrator is specified to +/-100ppm for 1 year over the temperature range of 18°C ~ 28°C, and right now it's +29.2°C here in my home lab and the instrument is several years old without recalibration. And guess what? It is just 38Hz high at 25MHz, which is only +1.5ppm. This is what I'm used to with all my equipment and I have always wondered why Siglent seems to struggle to do the same...

The winner amongst the SDS2k(X) instruments so far is your SDS2kX with just +108Hz (+4.3ppm).  :-+

Not sure how accurate the measurement with the SSA3kX is though. Yes, according to the data sheet, internal reference of the SA should be within 1ppm, but the marker peak search might also be a little off.

Unless the SA has a built-in true frequency counter (some have), it isn't the instrument of choice for me when it comes to highly accurate frequency measurements. Of course it should be fine as long as we're talking about a couple of ppm, but you really cannot trust it whenever you want accuracies better than that... ;)
Ha, funny how all these inbuilt AWG's so far have been a little high in frequency.
My nearly 3 yr old SDS2304 (HW 3.3)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=242938)

476 Hz low.  :o
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 24, 2016, 12:46:37 pm
Resolution is something different than accuracy. With an internal reference accuracy of 1ppm in the SSA3000 measuring a 1GHz signal has an accuracy of +/-1000Hz so when the marker says it is at 1 000 000 000 Hz in reality the frequency can be anywhere between 999 999 000 Hz and 1 000 001 000 Hz.


I've always said that when you try and have enough hard-working, everything can be learned. Even this kind of complex things.
 :-DD


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 01:18:50 pm
So +/-1ppm of 1GHz is not +/-1000Hz?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on July 24, 2016, 01:22:52 pm
Gentlemen, please don’t get into a fight for nothing, despite a few misunderstandings.

May I sum it all up:

Nobody here has claimed that the SSA3kX generally could do frequency measurements with better than 1ppm accuracy (without individual verification of the calibration, that is).

We were derailing this thread by briefly discussing the frequency deviations of instruments that have 25ppm accuracy specs. To do this, an instrument with 1ppm guaranteed accuracy is certainly up to the task.

I’ve made a silly objection that the peak search might introduce additional errors on the marker frequency, but that quite obviously cannot be true for verifying a 25MHz signal on an instrument that offers RBW down to 1Hz, like the SSA3kX does.

Still I’m old school, so whenever I publish any frequency measurements, they will be from my frequency counter that’s accurate within a couple of ppb thanks to a well aged, military grade ovenized frequency standard (and calibration is checked from time to time). But that’s certainly not necessary as long we’re talking about deviations in the ppm range.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 24, 2016, 02:01:25 pm
So +/-1ppm of 1GHz is not +/-1000Hz?

Why such question? Has someone said something like that?
Do you like the strawman?


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 24, 2016, 02:16:25 pm
So +/-1ppm of 1GHz is not +/-1000Hz?
Why such question? Has someone said something like that?
Do you like the strawman?
Just answer the question yes or no.
If I use a frequency counter with a 1ppm reference what is the possible error when it shows 1GHz?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: joeqsmith on July 24, 2016, 04:38:28 pm
My measurements are based to one selected Trimble Tb and Z3801A GPS (or based to these some times readjusted Rb's). With accuracy what I need they are enough, but still not true NIST traceable. Real accuracy is not so simple thing, depending of course if we are satisfied with max 1ppm or  <0.1ppb error.

I too use the Z3801A.  It's tied to a UPS and looks like it been on for almost 13 years now.   Even back then I don't remember them selling for a whole lot.   I have an antenna located in the attic of the house for it.  Modified mine to use an internal supply and enabled the RS-232.  I thought the 10MHz reference was was 10-9, so 1hz/GHz.   Also thought this was not very good compared to what they had at the time.   

Looking in the manual, "Frequency Accuracy: < 1 x 10-9, one day average"   Certainly good enough for 1ppm.   
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 24, 2016, 05:17:32 pm

I too use the Z3801A.  It's tied to a UPS and looks like it been on for almost 13 years now.   Even back then I don't remember them selling for a whole lot.   I have an antenna located in the attic of the house for it.  Modified mine to use an internal supply and enabled the RS-232.  I thought the 10MHz reference was was 10-9, so 1hz/GHz.   Also thought this was not very good compared to what they had at the time.   

Looking in the manual, "Frequency Accuracy: < 1 x 10-9, one day average"   Certainly good enough for 1ppm.

Looking in the manual, "Frequency Accuracy: < 1 x 10-9, one day average"

We have smiled with this specification many times. But, they do not lie. ;)
It is better.

Need also remember there was time  when they change SA status in GPS system for civil use.

But some 3801 is much better than some other. Also depending if OWEN is drifted out from optimal temperature discipline or perhaps in manufacturing phase they have not done it perfectly for every individual XTALS)

It fun that some (old) Trimble (not Tb but model what looks like just as Z3801A
specify:
Frequency accuracy - <2E-12 one day average  and  <2E-10 any interval.
Perhaps Trimble NTPX26  what  have also used years ago parallel with Z3801
(At this time I have 2x Z3801A and this Trimble NTPX26 and also Trimble Tb (with good OCXO)
And I need say I get best with Z3801A's
But Trimble Tb can be very good if environment temp do not change so much and parameters are carefully set for accurate frequency (default is more like fast find accurate time and this leads to more wide freq changes when it discipline. Discipline Parameters (and also receiver parameters depending local  things) need find optimum for individual Trimble)


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 24, 2016, 07:19:59 pm
Hello.
Can someone please tell me if it is possible to downgrade the firmware? If I buy a new one and get it with FW0707, can I still install FW0705?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 24, 2016, 10:10:11 pm
Hello.
Can someone please tell me if it is possible to downgrade the firmware? If I buy a new one and get it with FW0707, can I still install FW0705?
Thanks!
Yes.

From 7.07 to 7.05

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=243098)

And back again, no problem.

One of the improvements in 7.07 was to enable the saving of jpeg file types, not only bmp as was in 7.05 so I had to convert the image to jpeg from bmp to meet the forum file size limits.



I do like the file/folder management UI, it's quite easy to browse into all levels of sub-folders and out again.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 25, 2016, 02:09:49 am
Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 25, 2016, 05:13:57 am

One of the improvements in 7.07 was to enable the saving of jpeg file types, not only bmp as was in 7.05



This is shame they select jpeg as alternative for BMP. Better than nothing but..

Jpeg is ok for normal photographs. But not at all good for this kind of detailed technical images.  It destroy colors (when thin lines) and produce lot of artefacts and pixelization. Poorest format for this purpose. So, least I need continue BMP - PNG conversion using example very fast and simple irfan view.

Here is example about difference. I have rised gamma from 1.0 to 1.5 so that difference is more visible.
And what best, png  file size is less (with this kind of images) around 15k to around 25k as can see with most of my images. And quality is lot of better than jpg "scrambling".

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 25, 2016, 06:51:41 am
I've asked for more file types for a little while, SSA3kX is the first of any Siglent AFAIK to offer jpeg and we hope there will be more in the future. Png? Maybe. Discussion with Tech support has been around the time to convert each of the different types and the effect it has on the Save file computation times.

Jpeg takes a few more seconds to compute than BMP and with the jpeg format I have missed files by removing a USB pen drive too quickly before it has fully loaded. Annoying, yes but with the SSA3kX it is very quick to use the File management UI to check the file is present and does actually contain data.
I need to learn to more patient.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 25, 2016, 08:01:46 am
I've asked for more file types for a little while, SSA3kX is the first of any Siglent AFAIK to offer jpeg and we hope there will be more in the future. Png? Maybe. Discussion with Tech support has been around the time to convert each of the different types and the effect it has on the Save file computation times.

Jpeg takes a few more seconds to compute than BMP and with the jpeg format I have missed files by removing a USB pen drive too quickly before it has fully loaded. Annoying, yes but with the SSA3kX it is very quick to use the File management UI to check the file is present and does actually contain data.
I need to learn to more patient.  :)

It can nearly say that jpeg in this kind of use is mistake. It is widely known. It is very ok for photograph but not at all ok for technical graphics. PNG is widely known and supported. Of course fully lossless packaging is best but if use example GIF (one of most widely supported format and old also) then need change SSA colors to match 256 colors (what is not at all problem, only it need do)

When designer put jpg to this kind of purpose in equipment it can nearly say it is design error.
PNG is perhaps best possble what support also wide color pallette but for technical purposes GIF is even more better because it is true lossless. Still it produce small file size. But, color pallette is reduced and if we convert higher color depth image to GIF there may come very fun results, so it is best if original is also 256 colors. In teccnical equipment display like Spectrum analyzer imho 256 color depth is not at all problem.

Please Siglent:
Give us freedom to select whole display color map by user. I do not like these "childrens toy" colors.
This is just one table in UI.
Take example old ancient R&S Spectrum and look how they have done it (at this time display was color crt). So simple, so very simple.
User select example one trace, After then he turn knob and trace color change. After user find ok color he leave it and go to other things for adjust. 2 minutes and you have adjusted whole display just as you want, simple. Next time you turn it on it remember it. Only if do deep reset (not preset) set it back to factory state. Or something like it.
Only way to do it is fully freedom to user. Manufacturer made "skins" are not ok, mostly they are just terrible.

All peoples color taste is not same, also culture may affect this. Then, peoples eyes are different. Some times it is nice to "harmonize" all equipments so that when I look long time red display and then I move my eyes to blue display it is  just - terrible. (it may some times take long time before eye adapt and "negative" color disappear.
Then some times we need work dark. How hell these equipments can use in dark, example in observatory. Only way is buy lot of color and gray filters, or do hardware modifications.

Please Siglent:
If you really want keep JPEG there it is ok, no need delete but please give us least PNG.  (GIF only if also native color depth is reduced to 256)

;)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 25, 2016, 09:11:39 am
PNG is lossless.
http://www.howtogeek.com/203979/is-the-png-format-lossless-since-it-has-a-compression-parameter/ (http://www.howtogeek.com/203979/is-the-png-format-lossless-since-it-has-a-compression-parameter/)

There was a patent dispute over GIF IIRC. I just googled it and the patents have expired FWIW. PNG would be better anyway.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 25, 2016, 10:19:27 am
PNG is lossless.


Yes. You are exactly right. Thanks.

Somehow I was thinking it is very nearly as lossless. But never checked it exactly.
Before I write my opinion I fast check using my png and not at all check same image bmp because this I know is direct bitmap.
When I zoom my png it show some small artifacts/softness but very lot of less than same image jpg.
Jus after your msg I recheck. It is irfanView and/or my computer what destroy image (when I zoom image). It is fun, when I change zoomed image window size  in irfanView it return just clean). No any difference between original BMP and then PNG and used maximum compression. (also my laptop monitor do not use native reolution because I have reduced it due to my old dated eyes.)


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: KE5FX on July 25, 2016, 10:21:33 am
When designer put jpg to this kind of purpose in equipment it can nearly say it is design error.

+1.  .JPG is for photographs, not high-contrast line and vector imagery.  .PNG is the appropriate format.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 25, 2016, 11:55:02 pm
Hello,

I come from the TV world and I am into TV, CATV, SAT, IPTV & RADIO monitoring.

I own several TV analyzers and field meters, most with spectrum analyzer, which in comparison to a "real" spectrum analyzer are pretty basic.

However, to educate myself, I am really getting interested in owning a SAA3021X. Just because. Others collect stamps, I like to monitor the ether with spectrum analyzers and I like to learn and there is no better way to do it, than owning the required equipment.

Anyway, since I have no real experience with this kind of product, I would like to clarify the following issue, which is bugging me (especially because I grilled one simple spectrum analyzer due to this - see my other post "Presenting my new software for the SMA Spectrum Analyzer 138MHz-4.4GHz" - https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/presenting-my-new-software-for-the-sma-spectrum-analyzer-138mhz-4-4ghz/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/presenting-my-new-software-for-the-sma-spectrum-analyzer-138mhz-4-4ghz/) - but I was able to repair it):

The RF input connector of the SAA3021X is specified as follows: "To avoid damage to the instrument, for the signal input from the RF input terminal, the DC voltage component and the maximum continuous power of the AC (RF) signal component can not exceed 50 V and +30 dBm respectively."

Would it therefore be safe to connect the LNB Loopthrough cable from a satellite receiver (which would be responsible for feeding the DiSEqC-motor, LNB, etc.)? This cable would carry the RF signal from the LNB, together with 14/18V and 0/22kHz Signal.

How could I be sure that the "maximum continuous power of the AC (RF) signal component" will be less than +30 dBm?

The same goes for:
- CATV: sometimes active elements like amplifiers will feed current into the coax cable for additional remote powered amplifiers
- Antenna: what if I connect a huge antenna which will produce a really strong signal?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2016, 12:27:56 am
As you've discovered damage to the input is to be avoided at all costs.

Unfortunately even a basic DC block is not offered in the list of accessories from Siglent and it's something I'm currently investigating alternative sources for. Some cheap ones are available from eBay with dubious specs.  :-//

A good general recommendation of accessories needed are listed in this previous post:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg884523/#msg884523 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg884523/#msg884523)


Just like any test equipment the base unit is only the start of other pieces needed in order to complete many tasks.  :(
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 26, 2016, 12:36:28 am
When unsure about a signal it is best to check the signal first by feeding the signal into the spectrum analyser through a 40dB (or more) attenuator and perhaps also an extra DC blocker.

@Tautech: I just tested some cheap DC blockers from Ebay and they work quite well.
This one is the blue line (yellow is no DC blocker): www.ebay.com/itm/141638175057 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141638175057)
However it seems the Siglent SSA3000X series has DC blocking capacitors build in so there is no need for an external one for DC levels up to +/-50V.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2016, 01:14:09 am
@Tautech: I just tested some cheap DC blockers from Ebay and they work quite well.
This one is the blue line (yellow is no DC blocker): www.ebay.com/itm/141638175057 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141638175057)
Yep, spied that one and found it for less from other sources.
But if you check the specs it's true DC blocking voltage is only 50V.  >:(

Quote
However it seems the Siglent SSA3000X series has DC blocking capacitors build in so there is no need for an external one for DC levels up to +/-50V.
Quite, but with a rated 50V input how much more isolation is wise to use?
IMO if a significant amount more is not added there's still a risk that a SA newbie like me might do damage.
I'd rather be safe rather than sorry with a $3K+ SA .

I'm looking for something reasonable and a bit higher spec to offer as an option to customers rather than have unnecessary equipment failures as a result of misuse.

Anyone suggest a source of a suitable DC block, a bit better spec'ed?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 26, 2016, 05:16:24 am
Quite, but with a rated 50V input how much more isolation is wise to use?
IMO if a significant amount more is not added there's still a risk that a SA newbie like me might do damage.
I'd rather be safe rather than sorry with a $3K+ SA .

I'm looking for something reasonable and a bit higher spec to offer as an option to customers rather than have unnecessary equipment failures as a result of misuse.

Anyone suggest a source of a suitable DC block, a bit better spec'ed?

Maybe 50V is the standard -  e.g. the Signalhound accessory pack - they use Minicircuits DC blocks which all seem to be rated to 50V.

If someone blows both that _and_ the built in 50V input protection - well it reminds me a bit of this old joke :)
http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/response.htm (http://www.waynesthisandthat.com/response.htm)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2016, 05:29:17 am
Quite, but with a rated 50V input how much more isolation is wise to use?
IMO if a significant amount more is not added there's still a risk that a SA newbie like me might do damage.
I'd rather be safe rather than sorry with a $3K+ SA .

I'm looking for something reasonable and a bit higher spec to offer as an option to customers rather than have unnecessary equipment failures as a result of misuse.

Anyone suggest a source of a suitable DC block, a bit better spec'ed?

Maybe 50V is the standard ......
Maybe its is, but for some this might be considered an essential accessory too:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/N-M-F-DC-VARIABLE-POWER-block-DC-2-5GHz-200W-1000V-RF-Coaxial-high-voltage/1247757_32628218601.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/N-M-F-DC-VARIABLE-POWER-block-DC-2-5GHz-200W-1000V-RF-Coaxial-high-voltage/1247757_32628218601.html)

Edit
comprehension
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 26, 2016, 05:46:33 am
Quite, but with a rated 50V input how much more isolation is wise to use?
IMO if a significant amount more is not added there's still a risk that a SA newbie like me might do damage.
I'd rather be safe rather than sorry with a $3K+ SA .

I'm looking for something reasonable and a bit higher spec to offer as an option to customers rather than have unnecessary equipment failures as a result of misuse.

Anyone suggest a source of a suitable DC block, a bit better spec'ed?

Maybe 50V is the standard ......
Maybe its is, but stuff for some this might be considered an essential accessory too:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/N-M-F-DC-VARIABLE-POWER-block-DC-2-5GHz-200W-1000V-RF-Coaxial-high-voltage/1247757_32628218601.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/N-M-F-DC-VARIABLE-POWER-block-DC-2-5GHz-200W-1000V-RF-Coaxial-high-voltage/1247757_32628218601.html)


Thats an impressive beast. Just curious is it just projection from accidents when probing around or is there a type of application where they might need that type of protection - kinda sounds like you have something in mind?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2016, 05:57:27 am
Quite, but with a rated 50V input how much more isolation is wise to use?
IMO if a significant amount more is not added there's still a risk that a SA newbie like me might do damage.
I'd rather be safe rather than sorry with a $3K+ SA .

I'm looking for something reasonable and a bit higher spec to offer as an option to customers rather than have unnecessary equipment failures as a result of misuse.

Anyone suggest a source of a suitable DC block, a bit better spec'ed?

Maybe 50V is the standard ......
Maybe its is, but for some this might be considered an essential accessory too:
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/N-M-F-DC-VARIABLE-POWER-block-DC-2-5GHz-200W-1000V-RF-Coaxial-high-voltage/1247757_32628218601.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/product/N-M-F-DC-VARIABLE-POWER-block-DC-2-5GHz-200W-1000V-RF-Coaxial-high-voltage/1247757_32628218601.html)


Thats an impressive beast. Just curious is it just projection from accidents when probing around or is there a type of application where they might need that type of protection - kinda sounds like you have something in mind?
Not really, there's stuff out there for 1kW and more. Have a hunt on eBay, you'll see.  ;)

No I haven't got a personal need, just looking for something appropriate to offer customers for additional input protection.

But should customers need to go looking at HV RF, those that might should have the nouse to know what they're doing.....I hope.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 26, 2016, 06:26:10 am
Ah I see kW not kV- i.e. you want to block DC and an RF power limiter. That makes sense, I'm sure people have transmitted 100W into their SA before.

Someone will know more about that. I just use a 20dB attenuator _and_ an external DC block on the front end when I need to be careful, but thats only good to maybe a couple of Watts and 50V. Of course something like that big limiter would be too heavy for the SMA connector on my Signalhound, would be like the tail wagging the dog :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on July 26, 2016, 06:49:47 am
Why typically 50V dc.

Look typical cheap SMD capacitors specifications.

Note also that for 9kHz in 50ohm system this capasitance need be quite high.

Many DC blocks looks like they have nF class capacitors there instead of around uF class.
Example one in ebay tell that center pin DC block capacitor is 1nF
Now look this corner frequency just for simple estimation without more complex math.

But if do not really need 9kHz and starting from MHz or so is ok  it may give much more protection in practice what can read from DC value. Rising from 50V to 200V feeels like some improvement but... think also if freq range bottom is more high, it may also give more protection in practice because it is high pass filter before all internals and more low frequency things are attenuated.

Pity these eBay sellers do not give enough data or data is copied and not exactly from what they are selling..
Also it need think if need DC/High pass block both, center and shield and not only center.




Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on July 26, 2016, 08:59:55 am
@Tautech: I just tested some cheap DC blockers from Ebay and they work quite well.
This one is the blue line (yellow is no DC blocker): www.ebay.com/itm/141638175057 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/141638175057)
Yep, spied that one and found it for less from other sources.
But if you check the specs it's true DC blocking voltage is only 50V.  >:(
The breakdown voltage is specified at 1kV. See below.
Quote
Quote
However it seems the Siglent SSA3000X series has DC blocking capacitors build in so there is no need for an external one for DC levels up to +/-50V.
Quite, but with a rated 50V input how much more isolation is wise to use?
IMO if a significant amount more is not added there's still a risk that a SA newbie like me might do damage.
I'd rather be safe rather than sorry with a $3K+ SA .
If you look at Dave's SSA3000X teardown you'll see the MLCC capacitors for the DC blocking near the input. Even though they are rated for 50V MLCC capacitors in general have a very high dielectric breakdown voltage (over 1kV). This PDF has more information on it: http://www.koaspeer.com/pdfs/MLCC.pdf (http://www.koaspeer.com/pdfs/MLCC.pdf) 
Note the PDF is not about safety but it shows MLCC capacitors can deal with significant overvoltages based on emperical data.

HOWEVER(!) when using a high voltage DC block the capacitor inside still needs to be charged to level out the DC bias. This energy will go into the SA's input so IMHO it is better to use an attenuator as well when dealing with potentially high DC levels.

Also DC blocks don't work very well at low frequencies. I also measured that (see below). Yellow is a 0dBm signal with a 20dB attenuator (to protect the input against the generator misbehaving), the blue line is the SMA Ebay DC block I listed earlier.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: joeqsmith on July 26, 2016, 12:14:51 pm
Sensitive test equipment input protection ideas would have made for a great sticky thread.   Rare I want to look at anything exceeding 20bB but I keep an assortment of attenuators, blocks, GDTs and diode clamps.  Combo depends what the signal is.  Looking at a gas grill ignitor is going to be different than looking at a 10W 100MHz signal.     Link from when I was increasing the BW of my current probe.  You can see a small load I made with a tap. 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/home-made-pa-and-load/msg640180/#msg640180 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/home-made-pa-and-load/msg640180/#msg640180)


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 26, 2016, 12:17:40 pm
Why typically 50V dc.

Look typical cheap SMD capacitors specifications.

Note also that for 9kHz in 50ohm system this capasitance need be quite high.

Many DC blocks looks like they have nF class capacitors there instead of around uF class.
Example one in ebay tell that center pin DC block capacitor is 1nF
Now look this corner frequency just for simple estimation without more complex math.

But if do not really need 9kHz and starting from MHz or so is ok  it may give much more protection in practice what can read from DC value. Rising from 50V to 200V feeels like some improvement but... think also if freq range bottom is more high, it may also give more protection in practice because it is high pass filter before all internals and more low frequency things are attenuated.

Pity these eBay sellers do not give enough data or data is copied and not exactly from what they are selling..
Also it need think if need DC/High pass block both, center and shield and not only center.
It's all starting to make a little more sense now. (to me)
So if we look at the datasheet spec:

Amplitude and Level
Measurement range DANL to +10 dBm, 100 kHz~1 MHz, preamplifier off
                                DANL to +20 dBm, 1 MHz~3.2 GHz, preamplifier off
Reference level -100 dBm to +30 dBm, 1 dB steps
Preamplifier 20 dB (nom.), 9 kHz~3.2 GHz
Input attenuation 0~51 dB, 1 dB steps
Maximum input DC voltage +/- 50 VDC
Maximum series RF power 33 dBm, 3 minutes, input attenuation >20 dB


Then apply each rating in turn to our intended use there seems to be quite adequate front end protection for normal use.

 Opinions to the contrary?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 26, 2016, 02:11:19 pm
"Sensitive test equipment input protection ideas would have made for a great sticky thread. "

I am glad, my question was not as stupid as I feared...

Again, coming from TV/CATV/SAT field meters, I never had to worry about connecting the coaxial cable, but it would worry me to connect a unknown source to an expensive equipment like a spectrum analyzer.

Would it be wise to open a separate thread on this?

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 26, 2016, 07:39:36 pm
"Sensitive test equipment input protection ideas would have made for a great sticky thread. "

I am glad, my question was not as stupid as I feared...

Again, coming from TV/CATV/SAT field meters, I never had to worry about connecting the coaxial cable, but it would worry me to connect a unknown source to an expensive equipment like a spectrum analyzer.

Would it be wise to open a separate thread on this?

Regards

Seperate thread is probably a good idea.

In the meantime, what about static charge which can build up on an antenna coax?

I know you should discharge the static before connecting the coax to anything sensitive like a SA or analyzer. Anyone know more about that?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 26, 2016, 08:22:56 pm
Antennas, SAT and CATV should all be grounded, hence there should be no static at all.

I will open a separate thread.

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 26, 2016, 08:41:06 pm
Antennas, SAT and CATV should all be grounded, hence there should be no static at all.

I will open a separate thread.

Regards

I'm not sure its that simple for all of the antennas out there. I thought the coax is acting like a capacitor and building up charge - grounding one leg of a capacitor won't discharge it.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 26, 2016, 09:17:42 pm
I was referring to TV antennas and SAT/CATV distribution! These are definitly grounded - in Germany by law as a protection against lightening.

The signal is transported by the inner core (aluminium or copper) and the outer mesh (normally steel) is used for grounding the antenna and acting as a shield (hence the name) against interferences coming inside the cable (i.e. Dect phones) or against emissions from the cable core, causing interferences. In the US, it is mandatory to perform tests against signal leakage in CATV networks, to prevent interference i.e. in aeronautics communication.

I would not expect any static here, but you might end up with some voltage from DC@RF devices like SAT-receivers, amplifiers, etc.).

Not so sure about best practices in amateur radio antennas...

Regards


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 26, 2016, 09:40:03 pm
I was referring to TV antennas and SAT/CATV distribution! These are definitly grounded - in Germany by law as a protection against lightening.

OK understood. Yes I was thinking of amateur radio antennas mainly.
 
These are the things I try(I'm being honest!) to remember before connecting:
* DC voltage
* RF Power
* Static/ESD

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tefe on July 29, 2016, 01:08:59 am
Since I found the 30kHz RBW limit on the SSA3X Analyzers (when the TG is active) a little awkward (see here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408)), and while "rf-loop" correctly pointed out that this shouldn't be a problem, I wanted to dig a little bit deeper into the matter of the tracking generator in this machine.

What made me really wonder is that I wasn't able to get a proper parallel resonance dip with a very accurate 1MHz crystal, whatever I tried -- there was always some kind of "hills and valleys" where the dip should be visible. Also the series resonance peak appeares a little "wiggly", see the screenshots in the above link.

Other (less accurate) crystals measure fine without any visible artefacts. The difference is that the mentioned "high accuracy crystal" has a very small frequency span between series and parallel resonance, it's just about 950Hz whereas more common crystals have spacings more like several tens of kilohertz. The reading cannot be an inherent characteristic of the crystal since on my other SA (Rigol 815TG) and also on my 8753C VNA it measures fine. So the problem has to be related to the way the TG in the SSA3X works.

Why on SSA3k, using a 30 kHz RBW, we got a peak with its 3dB BW far less than 30kHz in a 3k span, even like a 100Hz RBW ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 29, 2016, 01:33:26 am
Why on SSA3k, using a 30 kHz RBW, we got a peak with its 3dB BW far less than 30kHz in a 3k span, even like a 100Hz RBW ?
There's some explanation of your "seen" behaviour in reply #304.


Edit
And welcome to the forum
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tefe on July 29, 2016, 07:05:09 am
Why on SSA3k, using a 30 kHz RBW, we got a peak with its 3dB BW far less than 30kHz in a 3k span, even like a 100Hz RBW ?
There's some explanation of your "seen" behaviour in reply #304.


Edit
And welcome to the forum

I couldn't find my answer from #304.

I guess 2 points: 1, when sweep time is long , the Xtal reach its full resonance, so the curve seems smoothly. When short, the Xtal isn't stable yet, so the curve is wiggly? But why DSA815 got a smooth curve?  2, why the peak looks thin , because the TGout was "tracking" the RFin? If a frequency  stands there, then the peak will follow the RBW shape.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on July 29, 2016, 10:45:52 am
Let me try to put it like this: The Rigol DSA815 has a very simple but otherwise clearly understandable approach to measuring with its TG in use: Both TG and SA section scan the frequency span in constant increments, defined by the count of displayable pixels on the screen (round about 700 in case of the DSA815) and the span. So the TG outputs the center frequency of the "bin" (defined by the resolution bandwidth) the SA is sampling. Since the bandwidth of the TG signal in each "bin" is much smaller than the minimum 100Hz RBW of the Rigol, you can consider the signal to be picked up after a narrow-bandwith component (crystal for instance) a discrete frequency scan of the component. The video bandwith setting has no effect on the TG output.

The situation with the Siglent is much more complex and so far, I'm not sure if I understood it completely. Since the RBW of the instrument with the TG in use is limited to 30kHz and above, frequency discrimination has to be done by scanning with the TG. And here's the big difference vs. the Rigol SA: The VBW setting affects the discrete frequencies to be swept with the TG, i.e. a lower VBW setting results in the TG discrete frequencies to be more closely spaced while a higher VBW causes them to be further apart. Consequently, this also affects scan speed. Why this method of sweeping the frequency results in the "hills and valleys" may be the result of some "chirping" of the TG when setting the new frequency during a sweep. It should be possible yet to eliminate this problem by temporal "windowing" the measurement after the TG has settled. I guess Siglent should address this issue.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Deuze on August 04, 2016, 02:46:13 am
Hi, I have received several requests of P07.05 hackable FW. Now I upload it to Mega, please download it if you need.
https://mega.nz/#!WltUFbBa!oSkqO8UV8K6KvsfArgdMQ-BnUcblf_9qHsz828eY9g0
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 04, 2016, 11:37:45 am
Can you give a summary of this firmware? :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 04, 2016, 12:34:40 pm
Can you give a summary of this firmware? :)

You get summary if you read all messages about SSA3000X  ;)

We do not need "Simply guide for dummies" about this. Or do we?

Exactly every bit same as previous Siglent public downloadable official FW 7.05 for SSA3000X
But due to reasons it is gone. If it is still shared it can only "destroy" Siglent reputation due to severe fatal bugs in this version. (after then there was 7.06 but it was not in public share. In this old FW 7.05 there is several not so nice bugs and even more severe "fatal class"  bugs if you run it with "non documented mode" (imho, 7.07  changelog is not at all complete, just some more visible changes)

And because 7.07 is not very old, example all my previous tests have used this FW version.

Now current official public shared version is FW 7.07 for SSA3000X

;)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 04, 2016, 12:39:37 pm
Does it give SSA3021X super powers (aka SSA3032X)? :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 04, 2016, 12:51:23 pm
Does it give SSA3021X super powers (aka SSA3032X)? :)

I will recommend you read these SSA3000X threads and you get answer easy. I have not so many fingers how many times it have told...

Or you can buy SSA3021X and do what you do..and... Hunters and fishermen often moves or stay quite quietly - because...you know.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 04, 2016, 12:56:30 pm
Yes I understand. I just hope that the fish includes calibration data for the other part of the pool :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pherdie on August 15, 2016, 03:31:40 am
Experienced two system crashes in short order on my SSA3021 w/TG and firmware .07.07. No hacks have been tried or applied to this unit. The unit had been displaying a 10.7 Mhz signal @-20db, 10hz RBW, 300Hz span. TG was not running. Signal was removed from the input for about an hour and the analyzer ran untouched and unterminated for the entire period. When the exact same signal was reconnected to the input, no signal was displayed. A scope was used to verify the signal being input was still present. The analyzer preset button was then activated, the same conditions set up on the analyzer and the input signal was then displayed as before. Within two minutes the system fully locked up and would not even respond to the power off button being momentarily depressed. The power off button was then held down for about 10-15 seconds until the unit finally went into shut down and reset. No system problems were apparent on reboot.

Anyone else had a similar issue?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 15, 2016, 07:30:27 am
Experienced two system crashes in short order on my SSA3021 w/TG and firmware .07.07. No hacks have been tried or applied to this unit. The unit had been displaying a 10.7 Mhz signal @-20db, 10hz RBW, 300Hz span. TG was not running. Signal was removed from the input for about an hour and the analyzer ran untouched and unterminated for the entire period. When the exact same signal was reconnected to the input, no signal was displayed. A scope was used to verify the signal being input was still present. The analyzer preset button was then activated, the same conditions set up on the analyzer and the input signal was then displayed as before. Within two minutes the system fully locked up and would not even respond to the power off button being momentarily depressed. The power off button was then held down for about 10-15 seconds until the unit finally went into shut down and reset. No system problems were apparent on reboot.

Anyone else had a similar issue?

One question: How about autocal.  ON or OFF?


In some rare case (using FW 7.05) I have found that turning autocal on may freeze system. (specially found just with narrow RBW's. But it happend rare so not enough experience how it is related to some settings but this all was using 7.05.  7.07 not (yet) detected this.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pherdie on August 15, 2016, 04:20:11 pm
Auto Cal was "Close" (off)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 23, 2016, 02:20:14 pm
Hi,

I am trying out my new SSA3021X and have a question:

Using the DEMOD button, I can demodulate AM and FM signals and make them auditable through an earphone.

I tried it with an FM radio station and indeed it works, I can listen to the radio, though I am not totally sure about some parameters. I.e. first I thought that I need to use ZERO SPAN on the carrier frequency, but apparently that is not the case. I seem to need to use a RWB of 100KHz, which kind of makes sense. I don't understand the timing parameter: I guess that is to give the SSA3021X more time to actually demodulating the audio instead of doing screen rendering?

The main question, however, is this: while I can listen to FM radio, I failed to get any signal (even noise) in AM mode. I have a radio scanner and can i.e. listen to aviation. If I use the same frequency on the SSA3021X I won't hear any sound, while the radio is reproducing fine. I can, however see the signal on the spectrum.

Is my AM demodulator broken or am I doing something stupid, like using wrong RWB, VWB, sweep, amplitude, etc.?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 23, 2016, 03:52:58 pm
Hi,

I am trying out my new SSA3021X and have a question:

Using the DEMOD button, I can demodulate AM and FM signals and make them auditable through an earphone.

I tried it with an FM radio station and indeed it works, I can listen to the radio, though I am not totally sure about some parameters. I.e. first I thought that I need to use ZERO SPAN on the carrier frequency, but apparently that is not the case. I seem to need to use a RWB of 100KHz, which kind of makes sense. I don't understand the timing parameter: I guess that is to give the SSA3021X more time to actually demodulating the audio instead of doing screen rendering?

The main question, however, is this: while I can listen to FM radio, I failed to get any signal (even noise) in AM mode. I have a radio scanner and can i.e. listen to aviation. If I use the same frequency on the SSA3021X I won't hear any sound, while the radio is reproducing fine. I can, however see the signal on the spectrum.

Is my AM demodulator broken or am I doing something stupid, like using wrong RWB, VWB, sweep, amplitude, etc.?

Thanks!

Just like what ever radio there is IF filer and IF filter have some bandwidth.  In spectrum analyzer we name it as Resolution Band Widht  filter. RBW. It is this IF filter if we talk radio.

For listening radio (as you know but someone perhaps do not know): With sweeping can not listen radio, same if you very fast turn your radio frequency adjustment. Sweeping need stop. For this: Zero Span.  SA is "sweeping Radio"

Filter need match with transmission BW. 

For commercial FM stations, RBW 100kHz, RBW 300kHz or  EMI RBW 120kHz.

For AM. Normal commercial shortwave AM. Start with 10kHz.

Btw, connecting antenna to SA input need also care that do not burn your SA front end!
Also need note that Max level what is told is valid with Attenuator 20dB and more.

If you think it is not enough sensitive.  Question is antenna and antenna matching.


It need also note that normal radio, even cheapest "pocket radio" have automatic RF/IF level control.  SA do not have at all. If signal is fading you need manually adjust RF level with Atten and PA.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 23, 2016, 03:59:24 pm
Thanks for your reply.

Can you please elaborate on the precautions required to not fry the input?

I am i.e. using a broadband amateur radio reception antenna. The signal is -50 to -70 dBm. I would have thought that there is no danger at all connecting this antenna to the SA. Am I missing something?

The same with cables carrying TV, CATV or SAT signals: I am using a DC blocker (mainly for SAT cable, due to the LNB power sent by the receiver). The signal itself varies from -40 to -70 dBm. That's safe, right?

I have a TV field meter which has a full spectrum analyzer and here the same 50VDC limit exists and the +20dBm. I never fried the input stage of any of my devices.

Still, I would appreciate a little more insight on this subject.

Thanks,
Vitor

(Btw: my name is Vitor and I just used the nick "Bicurico" because all my other commonly used nicks were not available)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 23, 2016, 05:29:27 pm
Thanks for your reply.

Can you please elaborate on the precautions required to not fry the input?

I am i.e. using a broadband amateur radio reception antenna. The signal is -50 to -70 dBm. I would have thought that there is no danger at all connecting this antenna to the SA. Am I missing something?

The same with cables carrying TV, CATV or SAT signals: I am using a DC blocker (mainly for SAT cable, due to the LNB power sent by the receiver). The signal itself varies from -40 to -70 dBm. That's safe, right?

I have a TV field meter which has a full spectrum analyzer and here the same 50VDC limit exists and the +20dBm. I never fried the input stage of any of my devices.

Still, I would appreciate a little more insight on this subject.

Thanks,
Vitor

(Btw: my name is Vitor and I just used the nick "Bicurico" because all my other commonly used nicks were not available)

Just normal care.

Randomly sometimes I listen FM or SW (just for fun experimentation)
  and I do not afraid connect small antenna. But if I think I use it more with antenna and  bit more good outside antenna, example long wire - I do not feel safe until I use some DC block with  with higher low freq limit (less capacitance) and/or limiter. 
With 9kHz l freq limit SSA internal DC block capacitance is quite high, I think it is least well over 1 uF .

For FM listening 1nF is enough. For MW 200nF  and for SW example 20nF.

Is not worth too much to worry about, but the normal sensible caution is good - as always.

It is still good to tightly realize and remember that even if look 1kHz wide band around 1MHz using 10Hz RBW whole front end get in all what is available in input terminal  from nearly DC (<9kHz)  to far over 3GHz and all, entire total amount, is going there to attenuator, switches and pereamplifier and mixer. Whole this front end  take even this 145MHz +30dBm even if you listen 7Mhz and see only -90dBm signals...   this fact is some times too easy forget. In normal environmnet this iss not big problem but if in house is also some transmitter or this and that what produce high LF - HF field when antenna is connected to SA..

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 23, 2016, 05:42:40 pm
By default the spectrum analyzer supports FM and AM demodulation.
But are there SW options for other modulations (QPSK, FSK, etc.)?
GW-Instek provides many more modulation options than Rigol and Siglent by default.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: cncjerry on August 23, 2016, 05:59:07 pm

It is still good to tightly realize and remember that even if look 1kHz wide band around 1MHz using 10Hz RBW whole front end get in all what is available in input terminal  from nearly DC (<9kHz)  to far over 3GHz and all, entire total amount, is going there to attenuator, switches and preamplifier and mixer. Whole this front end  take even this 145MHz +30dBm even if you listen 7Mhz and see only -90dBm signals...   this fact is some times too easy forget. In normal environment this is not big problem but if in house is also some transmitter or this and that what produce high LF - HF field when antenna is connected to SA..

rf-loop, that is a very important point you make re broadband input to the SA front end.  Another point related to long wires is static buildup and lightening strikes.  Many times lightning can be blamed for failures of equipment hooked to long random wires even though the lightning didn't directly strike the antenna.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 23, 2016, 06:03:39 pm
Finally I got some sound on AM demodulation!

It seems the gain of my antenna is much too low: I had to turn off attenuation (0.00dB) and turn on Preamp!

Noise is at -110 dBm while transmissions happen at around -90dBm. Volume goes to 10 (max.)

If I turn Attenuator to AUTO and Preamp to OFF, I won't receive anything.

@pascal_sweden: only AM/FM demodulator available. For QPSK/8PSK/QAM/etc. (all digital TV modulations) you should use a TV field meter. Let me know if you want some recommendations!

Regards
Vitor

PS: In the picture I tried to turn on Attentuation AUTO and Preamp On. The picture shows a nearby plane communication, hence the attenuation of 10 dB was OK.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 24, 2016, 01:27:40 pm
Messing around with EasySpectrum.

The pictures show once again aviation communication, the pilot talking to the tower. The 3D waterfall diagram is spectacular and I wasn't even expecting this funcion to be available!

Sidenote to use EasySpectrum, as information is scarce: before installing the EasySpectrum package from Siglent, you need to download and install the National Instruments VISA package (https://www.ni.com/visa/ (https://www.ni.com/visa/)). This provides the required driver/framework for the GPIB protocol.

After installing it, run NI MAX and under network add the SSA3021X. Make sure the SSA3021X has the network correctly configured and you know what IP it is using.

Now run EasySpectrum and it should just work.

Regards,
Vitor

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Electro Fan on August 25, 2016, 02:21:57 am
Messing around with EasySpectrum.

The pictures show once again aviation communication, the pilot talking to the tower. The 3D waterfall diagram is spectacular and I wasn't even expecting this funcion to be available!

Sidenote to use EasySpectrum, as information is scarce: before installing the EasySpectrum package from Siglent, you need to download and install the National Instruments VISA package (https://www.ni.com/visa/ (https://www.ni.com/visa/)). This provides the required driver/framework for the GPIB protocol.

After installing it, run NI MAX and under network add the SSA3021X. Make sure the SSA3021X has the network correctly configured and you know what IP it is using.

Now run EasySpectrum and it should just work.

Regards,
Vitor

Really nice 3D software!  Is EasySpectrum included with the SA or is it an additional cost?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Electro Fan on August 25, 2016, 02:34:06 am
Somewhat off topic, but at about 10:15 in Dave's video he shows the noise floor for the Siglent vs the Rigol at three different RBW settings with and without the preamp invoked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkLciTsjGZg&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkLciTsjGZg&feature=youtu.be)

The numbers with the preamp on were especially impressive.  Question:  how do these numbers equate to the noise floor numbers of older HP856X spectrum analyzers (which I don't think offered the same type of preamp or preamp control, yet I think HP claimed some pretty good numbers)?

I'm interested in a comparison of the Siglent vs. the older HPs both in terms of the performance specs and in terms of the underlying SA architecture design.  (Clearly, technology has changed a bunch in a couple decades so 3D rendering, etc. wasn't in the design back in the day; I'm more interested in how the performance compares and how the performance was/is achieved.)

Thx
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 25, 2016, 02:57:55 am
Messing around with EasySpectrum.

The pictures show once again aviation communication, the pilot talking to the tower. The 3D waterfall diagram is spectacular and I wasn't even expecting this funcion to be available!

Sidenote to use EasySpectrum, as information is scarce: before installing the EasySpectrum package from Siglent, you need to download and install the National Instruments VISA package (https://www.ni.com/visa/ (https://www.ni.com/visa/)). This provides the required driver/framework for the GPIB protocol.

After installing it, run NI MAX and under network add the SSA3021X. Make sure the SSA3021X has the network correctly configured and you know what IP it is using.

Now run EasySpectrum and it should just work.

Regards,
Vitor

Really nice 3D software! 
The 3D image is part of the GUI EasySpectrum software package. and I've highlighted the terminology ^^^ Siglent use to describe it.

Quote
Is EasySpectrum included with the SA or is it an additional cost?
It should be on the CD (haven't checked) but it's freely available from the Siglent America website:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/Easyspectrum.rar (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/Easyspectrum.rar)

Edit
Correction
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 25, 2016, 04:45:56 am
I think normal waterfall, "Spectrum monitor" as it is named in SA GUI is included with Option: AMK-SSA3000X.

Quote
Advanced Measurements Kit (AMK-SSA3000X)  – Includes automatic measurements for
– Channel Power
– Adjacent Channel Power Ratio
– Time Domain Power
– Occupied Bandwidth
– Includes Waterfall Display


Here  waterfall image how my SSA3000X  display it. It show level only with color.
(I can not test without this AMK-SSA3000X Option because permanent Option can not remove using SSA GUI)
This looks very different what PC software EasySpectrum image @Bicurico  posted  and it looks 3-d waterfall.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=250175;image)

@Bicurico posted nice 3-d waterfall using PC software EasyWave (free)




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=250405;image)

My SSA3000X (FW 7.05,  with Option: AMK-SSA3000X). Image  from SSA display.

(note also image quality when used JPG or PNG where PNG wins like 10-1.  I hope Siglent add this PNG and make it as default. Peoples can take selfies and scenery or what ever art pictures using JPG but this is not suitable for this kind of technical document images. If yoy zoom some details etc you can see what kind of pixel porridge JPG is coocking in details)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on August 26, 2016, 05:20:59 am
Here  waterfall image how my SSA3000X  display it. It show level only with color.
(I can not test without this AMK-SSA3000X Option because permanent Option can not remove using SSA GUI)
This looks very different what PC software EasySpectrum image @Bicurico  posted  and it looks 3-d waterfall.

Stricly speaking only the image from your SSA-X shows a waterfall display format (the EasySpectrum image from Bicurico isn't a "waterfall" display format, it's just a 3D P/F/t display format; waterfall display formats, as the name implies, start at the top and built up to the bottom, with the vertical axis being the time axis).

Quote
(note also image quality when used JPG or PNG where PNG wins like 10-1.  I hope Siglent add this PNG and make it as default. Peoples can take selfies and scenery or what ever art pictures using JPG but this is not suitable for this kind of technical document images.

That is not correct. JPEG can provide a similar image quality as PNG, but it depends on the parameters (i.e. quality level, compression factor) that are used for generating them. If the screenshots in JPG are inferior in quality to PNG shots then this isn't the fault of JPEG but of Siglent because they set the JPG parameters in their firmware to low quality.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 26, 2016, 07:59:06 am
d scenery or what ever art pictures using JPG but this is not suitable for this kind of technical document images.

That is not correct. JPEG can provide a similar image quality as PNG, but it depends on the parameters (i.e. quality level, compression factor) that are used for generating them. If the screenshots in JPG are inferior in quality to PNG shots then this isn't the fault of JPEG but of Siglent because they set the JPG parameters in their firmware to low quality.
[/quote]

Not at all if we look result file size.

Original TFT BMP is 1843254 bytes.

Perhaps need some lesson?  PNG is a lossless compression format when JPG is lossy.

You can try your self some exercises if you never have done.

After convert SSA  1.8M BMP to PNG so that PNG file size is around 30k. Look result. (file size depends what you have in picture, because it IS lossless. But also this is why it pack well this kind if images where image do not have nearly anything)
Then do same using conversion to JPG so that result is around same file size. Look result.

But, if you take normal camera image situation is very very different if look PNG and good quality JPG file sizes. In this case JPG win 10-1. Also in normal photograph, it is not so criticalk (usually( if we loose something.. 

And vice versa... in this kind of SSA etc technical images, mostly PNG win JPG like 10-1.

These things is best you self study using example google and read.
But in other hand, everyone has the right to choose a religion, and it must be respected.

Of course  if we use very high quality settings for JPG package result is quite good, also for this kind of images, but why we then use packing if file size is big when we can get still better quality  with lot of smaller file size.

Do you think we want out from BMP just because file size.  Best result is with PNG and difference is not even only marginal.

Here attacehed two images.

Exatly same. Same BMP converted ti PNG and JPG. First I think I try pack JPG to ssame size as PNG size here but result was so terrible that then I select around double file size for JPG paackgage result.

BMP is too big here but even with high zooming I can not find difference between this original BMP and this PNG.
But if you zoom in to JPG it is like pixel porridge. And note, it compressed file size is still over 2x PNG

Do not look what image show, look only image quality. (experiment what you see in image is not what you get from Siglent directly, but 10MHz carrier level is 0dBm)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=250746;image)

Load, then zoom both 5x and compare.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on August 26, 2016, 09:02:59 am
Quote
d scenery or what ever art pictures using JPG but this is not suitable for this kind of technical document images.

That is not correct. JPEG can provide a similar image quality as PNG, but it depends on the parameters (i.e. quality level, compression factor) that are used for generating them. If the screenshots in JPG are inferior in quality to PNG shots then this isn't the fault of JPEG but of Siglent because they set the JPG parameters in their firmware to low quality.

Not at all if we look result file size.

Original TFT BMP is 1843254 bytes.

Perhaps need some lesson?  PNG is a lossless compression format when JPG is lossy.

Maybe you should educate yourself before trying to lecture others?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_JPEG (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless_JPEG)

JPEG can be both lossy and lossless, and lossless JPEG exists for over 20 years (it's often used in medical application, and I believe it's also the format used by the US Librabry Of Congress to archive stuff).

Quote
You can try your self some exercises if you never have done.

After convert SSA  1.8M BMP to PNG so that PNG file size is around 30k. Look result. (file size depends what you have in picture, because it IS lossless. But also this is why it pack well this kind if images where image do not have nearly anything)
Then do same using conversion to JPG so that result is around same file size. Look result.

Well, if the file size of the PNG and JPEG are identical then this should have already told you that the JPG is very likely created with a very low quality setting. Simply because lossless JPG is less efficient than the much newer PNG format and a lossless JPEG will be larger than a (lossless) PNG at equal quality.

That is if Siglent even uses lossless JPG, because they might very well just use the lossy variant. Still, even the lossy variant should have no problems to come up with similar quality as a PNG file. But that won't be the case if Siglent uses low quality settings for JPG.

Quote
But, if you take normal camera image situation is very very different if look PNG and good quality JPG file sizes. In this case JPG win 10-1. Also in normal photograph, it is not so criticalk (usually( if we loose something.. 

And vice versa... in this kind of SSA etc technical images, mostly PNG win JPG like 10-1.

I hope you don't want to suggest that the crappy 1024x600 (0.6Mpx) screenshot with 256 or less colors displayed (your Siglent SSA-X, like most low-cost low-performance test devices, is highly unlikely to use anything over a 256 color palette, it might well be just 16 colors) and large, homogenous areas is a bigger challenge to a compression format than a multi Mpx photograph with true 24bit resolution and complex content with fine-grnulated, nuanced details?

Quote
These things is best you self study using example google and read.
But in other hand, everyone has the right to choose a religion, and it must be respected.

What are you on about? This are technical facts, not religion.

Quote
Of course  if we use very high quality settings for JPG package result is quite good, also for this kind of images, but why we then use packing if file size is big when we can get still better quality  with lot of smaller file size.

So you realize the simple reason the JPG is worse is because of the settings Siglent has chosen in their firmware?

Besides, the point of why good test equipment offers more than just one file format is that PNG simply isn't always supported, while JPEG and BMP generally are. So when you have to read the screenshot on a platform/software which for some reason or other doesn't support PNG then PNGs advantages of better compression simply ecome irrelevant.

Quote
Do you think we want out from BMP just because file size.  Best result is with PNG and difference is not even only marginal.

We went from BMP (which is usually uncompressed and then pretty much a 1:1 copy of the raw image data, and thus will provide the best image quality) to compressed format because BMP files are huge, and for multi-Mpx images become very difficult to handle. JPG is one of the oldest image formats, it supports lossy and lossless compression, and is widely supported. PNG is a younger format which pretty much exists to circumvent the patents that are in one of JPGs compression formats. And because PNG is younger, it's also more efficient than JPEG, so it shouldn't be surprising when a similar quality JPEG file is larger than a PNG file.

Quote
Here attacehed two images.

Exatly same. Same BMP converted ti PNG and JPG.

Nice, but useless. The quality of the JPG pretty much depends on the settings (what compression, what compression ratio, and so on) you have chosen when creating the file (or what the converter you used as default settings), so it's pretty meaningless.

However, the point I was trying to make is that if the JPG screenshots look inferior to PNG screenshots then this isn't the fault of the JPEG file format, it's Siglent who is to blame. JPEG works fine for screenshots if the settings are appropriate, which on most test instruments I've taken JPEG screenshots from are.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on August 26, 2016, 09:15:37 am
BTW: The BMP format supports RLE compression which is perfect for typical test equipment screendumps.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2016, 09:23:00 am
The standard and only image format for all Siglent products to date has been BMP. That, we imagine will remain however there are moves afoot to offer alternative formats as well. As all images are currently captured as BMP they then need be converted to other formats and then there will be some tradeoffs depending on the computation power available in each product.
We've had some behind the scenes discussion as which formats might be offered and the likely phase in time over the product range. Word I have is that other image file formats will gradually be rolled out in subsequent versions of new FW. We hope for a good selection of formats that offer users the image file type that will suit them best.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 26, 2016, 10:17:43 am
@Wuerstchenhund

Of course if we talk common photographing and image formats and so on...
But, I was talking in this context where we talk SSA image formats.

Primary is that BMP file size is too big.
We want reduce it and still keep all simple and get also good result and even more, format what is really widely supported.
We can of course use JPG lossless but very easy file size is 200 to over 300k.
Is it nice if we get 300k files (yes it CAN do also smaller but I'm not sure where we hit problems with compatibility in all places.
For this kind of images what are SSA TFT we can very easy do PNG. Get very small file size and keep original image quality.

PNG is not at all best for all things.
But for this purpose PNG  is exellent.

If you believe some lossless "jpg" is better you can believe. But I believe it also leads to many complaints.
I don not talk here  photographing and related to these image formats. JPG may give superior compression for photographic or realistic artwork and for lossless purposes LS and 2000 etc.   but  I talk here SSA3000 TFT screen shot images and what is best solution in practice to get good compression with good quality so that also it is supported as widely as possible. And for this PNG is perhaps even best solution.

Microsoft: "JPEG is not suitable for simpler pictures that contain few colors, broad areas of similar color, or stark differences in brightness."



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on August 26, 2016, 10:18:54 am
We've had some behind the scenes discussion as which formats might be offered and the likely phase in time over the product range. Word I have is that other image file formats will gradually be rolled out in subsequent versions of new FW. We hope for a good selection of formats that offer users the image file type that will suit them best.

I don't think there's a need to offer some dozen of more or less obscure image format for a simple screenshot. Offering BMP, PNG AND JPG (maybe with some slamm tweaks to improve quality) is perfectly fine and already more than many other instruments offer.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2016, 10:22:37 am
We've had some behind the scenes discussion as which formats might be offered and the likely phase in time over the product range. Word I have is that other image file formats will gradually be rolled out in subsequent versions of new FW. We hope for a good selection of formats that offer users the image file type that will suit them best.

I don't think there's a need to offer some dozen of more or less obscure image format for a simple screenshot. Offering BMP, PNG AND JPG (maybe with some slamm tweaks to improve quality) is perfectly fine and already more than many other instruments offer.
Exactly what we've asked for.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 26, 2016, 10:24:02 am
We've had some behind the scenes discussion as which formats might be offered and the likely phase in time over the product range. Word I have is that other image file formats will gradually be rolled out in subsequent versions of new FW. We hope for a good selection of formats that offer users the image file type that will suit them best.

I don't think there's a need to offer some dozen of more or less obscure image format for a simple screenshot. Offering BMP, PNG AND JPG (maybe with some slamm tweaks to improve quality) is perfectly fine and already more than many other instruments offer.


Exactly what we've asked for.  :)
:-+
Exactly!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 26, 2016, 10:44:18 am
When I noticed jpeg screenshot file types added in the 7.07 FW I asked Tech support if they would include png and discussion then focussed on these other formats being offered in other instruments......it's coming I was told.  :clap:
"But we should not announce it yet as to provide it across whole the range will take some time".


It may not be possible or wise to include all types on some instruments IMO as the compression and subsequent file upload times may become frustrating, just as it is in some competitors equipment and that's well documented in various posts on the forum. It's something R&D will have to work through to decide which instruments support which formats and what might be acceptable compression and upload delays. Only time will tell what Siglent come up with.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on August 26, 2016, 01:32:41 pm
I think they should focus R&D efforts more into the debugging and performance sectors, far more important for a SA than the picture format. How often except for really basic report did you even use screen shots at work? Usually the data is imported into a SW and then processed there and replotted using the used SW plotting function. I barely ever used the screen shot function in real life applications. :-//

BR
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Wuerstchenhund on August 26, 2016, 02:29:20 pm
I think they should focus R&D efforts more into the debugging and performance sectors, far more important for a SA than the picture format. How often except for really basic report did you even use screen shots at work?

Pretty much every day. It's the quickest way to document all kind of stuff.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 26, 2016, 02:52:08 pm
I would like to suggest the EasySpectrum application. It makes grabbing pictures much easier and you don't have the hassle of having to copy things over with a USB stick. I know that this only works if the SA is sitting next to the PC. This way you can grap the pure BMP and save it in whatever format you want! ::) Also, you get to use the "3D waterfall" (not sure how to call it properly).

I have a question on the everyday use of the SSA3021X: when I start to play with Frequencies, Span, Amplitude, Sweep and Trace options, after some time everything gets slow. Even if I set the parameters back to reasonable values, the refresh rate is low. If I press the PRESET button, however, things speed up again. So I tried to memorize those PRESET settings and on the next slow down entered them manually: the SA was still slow. Pressing the PRESET made it run faster again.

Perhaps I am doing something wrong and I did not really measure speeds. Can it be that the PRESET button also resets memories, logs, buffers or whatever?

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on August 26, 2016, 04:45:40 pm
I think they should focus R&D efforts more into the debugging and performance sectors, far more important for a SA than the picture format. How often except for really basic report did you even use screen shots at work?
Well I do that all the time because it is easy. Sure you can use external software but you need a PC, set the software up (and this is often a painful process due to drivers, the right NI VISA driver, etc) and then control the instrument from your PC -if that works at all-. It is just much easier to press a button and when making the report you just drag&drop the images into the document from a USB stick.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: KE5FX on August 26, 2016, 08:20:11 pm
I think they should focus R&D efforts more into the debugging and performance sectors, far more important for a SA than the picture format. How often except for really basic report did you even use screen shots at work?

Pretty much every day. It's the quickest way to document all kind of stuff.

Yeah, that's crazy talk.  A measurement you didn't record is one you didn't make.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Electro Fan on August 27, 2016, 03:09:05 am
I think normal waterfall, "Spectrum monitor" as it is named in SA GUI is included with Option: AMK-SSA3000X.

Quote
Advanced Measurements Kit (AMK-SSA3000X)  – Includes automatic measurements for
– Channel Power
– Adjacent Channel Power Ratio
– Time Domain Power
– Occupied Bandwidth
– Includes Waterfall Display


Here  waterfall image how my SSA3000X  display it. It show level only with color.
(I can not test without this AMK-SSA3000X Option because permanent Option can not remove using SSA GUI)
This looks very different what PC software EasySpectrum image @Bicurico  posted  and it looks 3-d waterfall.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=250175;image)

@Bicurico posted nice 3-d waterfall using PC software EasyWave (free)




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=250405;image)

My SSA3000X (FW 7.05,  with Option: AMK-SSA3000X). Image  from SSA display.

(note also image quality when used JPG or PNG where PNG wins like 10-1.  I hope Siglent add this PNG and make it as default. Peoples can take selfies and scenery or what ever art pictures using JPG but this is not suitable for this kind of technical document images. If yoy zoom some details etc you can see what kind of pixel porridge JPG is coocking in details)

Just to clarify, there are two images posted above; the top looks "3D", the bottom looks like a "2D""waterfall".

Is the ability to make the top 3D image freely included with the SA, or is the top 3D image only possible for an extra charge?  Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 27, 2016, 05:56:46 am
Upper image is from PC, running free PC software named EasySpectrum. 
This EasySpectrum PC software come free with SA  or  it can also free download from Siglent.
This need SSA is connected to PC and PC software EasySpectrum produce this image. This image is from PC display, not from SSA display at all.  This work with standard SSA without any extra Option. It is EasySpectrum PC software function, not SSA function.

EasySpectrum and other EasyXxxx softwares for other Siglent equipments can download here.
http://siglentamerica.com/support_software_14 (http://siglentamerica.com/support_software_14)
Before install it, first need install  National Instruments VISA (Ni-Visa 15.0.1)
Also it is free. It can get from National Instruments.

Of course if have good programming skills there can produce what ever images using data from SSA and command SSA using SCPI commands.  These can find in SSA3000X  Programming quide (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/SSA3000X_Programming%20Guide.pdf)





Lower image is directly from stand alone SSA3000X display (and screen dump to USB stick).   It is one function included in Option AMK-SSA3000X.  This Option is not free and for activate it permanently need buy license key. When buy new SSA there is short trial time for all Options. But these need try out soon after get SSA because all options timers run always when SSA is running, not only if you use option. ( The trial period implementation is not good. My opinion is that counter need count only when Option is used.)

Advanced Measurements Kit (AMK-SSA3000X)  – Includes automatic measurements for
– Channel Power
– Adjacent Channel Power Ratio
– Time Domain Power
– Occupied Bandwidth
– Includes Waterfall Display
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 27, 2016, 09:57:14 am

I have a question on the everyday use of the SSA3021X: when I start to play with Frequencies, Span, Amplitude, Sweep and Trace options, after some time everything gets slow. Even if I set the parameters back to reasonable values, the refresh rate is low. If I press the PRESET button, however, things speed up again.

I have never meet this exept in situations when I have changed some parameter what affect speed. I mean example if I have adjusted VBW, after adjusting it is manually forced until I change its mode back to auto. Now If I forget this and if I do some other things and then just example change span. Then I wonder why this is so slow. Until I realize that oops... VBW is narrow. There is many this kind of things what do not return back to auto where SSA set itself better value when user select some other parameter. Also then, example sweep mode, in some (most) cases sweep is slower that FFT. If you normally use in auto sweep mode and then you select manually sweep mode sweep. Then  change freq, span etc it may work much slower than usually if in sweep mode auto where is select FFT or (default) speed optimize instead of accuracy.

Of course I have not tested all possible combinations (human life is not enough for all possible combinations), so it is still possible there is some situation where it live some process on what slows system.  When find this, it is good to document exacxtly these kind of findings so that same can repeat example by other user or in Siglent.

One I know. If use AMK option "waterfall". When it start from empty waterfall image it is more fast. After it collect more and more data it goes  slower, until there is full waterfall image, after then it run with this speed.

Also if turn on Demod and set demod time long then forget demod on and go to look some other things. But demod time still make "pause" between sweeps. (in this case there is AM or FM displayed in left side)
If there is example 500ms demod time and then you go to some other things and your sweep time is example 10s. You do not perhaps note this extra pause. But then you adjust BW and or span etc and you expect much more fast sweep. Then you wornder why 24ms sweep is so slow. It keep demod time pauses (and you are not using it but forget it on)


Needs a lot of experience before the device is so familiar with that note of all the factors that affect each other and how they interact with each other.
Know your device - it is always important.
Then, when you know or seriously suspect that something is really wrong, it is good to document it well. So well that the problem may be repeated anywhere at any time by other user and I'm sure Siglent want also check all documented problems carefully.



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 27, 2016, 10:37:35 am
About LIMIT function. One small example. Of course it can use for many things.
Also it have both, upper limit and lower limit.
It can use in two kind of limits. Just simple level limit line over span or user defined shape limit line.
Limit trace can fully edit and one limit line may have up to 100 points what each have level and frequency. Limit line is based data points. When limit is used and If you change ref level, scale and span etc limit line follow its own data points even if they are out from screen. Data points keep values what you have made.

In this example perhaps most simple case where is user edited limit line (in this case only 7 data points) These limits can store and use later of course. (file type .lim)

Some times it is nice to leave SSA watching some frequency band if there exists some times some signal. Of course for this can use Max-Hold function but it is not always optimal.  There was continuous signal and highly variable level so I made limit line what give more room for this signal.
Then I set limit rule so that SSA stop when limit test fail.
Now it run as in first image and after some signal hit limit, it stop like in next image. Also Marker was set for trace highest peak.

Limit line editing is easy and fast after short exercise. This siglent control knob is really good, accurate and fast also . Not at all like some oscilloscopes encoders. Also finger feel these small steps. Finger point to the small hole, and then a rotation, it goes like HP in the old days. (but I do not believe it is optical with as good bearings like old times HP)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=251058;image)
Running, no any signal hit limit.


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=251060;image)
Signal hit limit, stop. (marker is not because hit limit, it is because at this time this signal peak is highest)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on August 27, 2016, 03:50:14 pm
That is not correct. JPEG can provide a similar image quality as PNG, but it depends on the parameters (i.e. quality level, compression factor) that are used for generating them. If the screenshots in JPG are inferior in quality to PNG shots then this isn't the fault of JPEG but of Siglent because they set the JPG parameters in their firmware to low quality.

Not at all if we look result file size.

Original TFT BMP is 1843254 bytes.

Perhaps need some lesson?  PNG is a lossless compression format when JPG is lossy.
I did some tests and with the JPG quality set over 90% you won't see the differences between BMP and JPG but still get a more than 10 times reduction in size. What is most worrying is that nobody at Siglent gave any thought about the JPG compression setting or which file format to support. It is all trial & error with the end user in the loop.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 27, 2016, 09:52:16 pm

I have a question on the everyday use of the SSA3021X: when I start to play with Frequencies, Span, Amplitude, Sweep and Trace options, after some time everything gets slow. Even if I set the parameters back to reasonable values, the refresh rate is low. If I press the PRESET button, however, things speed up again.

I have never meet this exept in situations when I have changed some parameter what affect speed. I mean example if I have adjusted VBW, after adjusting it is manually forced until I change its mode back to auto. Now If I forget this and if I do some other things and then just example change span. Then I wonder why this is so slow. Until I realize that oops... VBW is narrow. There is many this kind of things what do not return back to auto where SSA set itself better value when user select some other parameter. Also then, example sweep mode, in some (most) cases sweep is slower that FFT. If you normally use in auto sweep mode and then you select manually sweep mode sweep. Then  change freq, span etc it may work much slower than usually if in sweep mode auto where is select FFT or (default) speed optimize instead of accuracy.

Of course I have not tested all possible combinations (human life is not enough for all possible combinations), so it is still possible there is some situation where it live some process on what slows system.  When find this, it is good to document exacxtly these kind of findings so that same can repeat example by other user or in Siglent.

One I know. If use AMK option "waterfall". When it start from empty waterfall image it is more fast. After it collect more and more data it goes  slower, until there is full waterfall image, after then it run with this speed.

Also if turn on Demod and set demod time long then forget demod on and go to look some other things. But demod time still make "pause" between sweeps. (in this case there is AM or FM displayed in left side)
If there is example 500ms demod time and then you go to some other things and your sweep time is example 10s. You do not perhaps note this extra pause. But then you adjust BW and or span etc and you expect much more fast sweep. Then you wornder why 24ms sweep is so slow. It keep demod time pauses (and you are not using it but forget it on)


Needs a lot of experience before the device is so familiar with that note of all the factors that affect each other and how they interact with each other.
Know your device - it is always important.
Then, when you know or seriously suspect that something is really wrong, it is good to document it well. So well that the problem may be repeated anywhere at any time by other user and I'm sure Siglent want also check all documented problems carefully.

I think I have figured out great part of the SSA3021X, but naturally there is still much to learn.

Perhaps I just forgot to set one parameter and thus got the feeling that the refresh rate was slow.

I will try to pay attention to this and if it really gets slow, I will try to find out what is the cause, so that it can be reproduced. Right now I am not sure if it is my mistake.

All in all, I do like the device very much. It is a great step up in regards to the best of my field meters with spectrum function.

I find the resolution amazing, showing (often the right word is revealing) signals in a detail I couldn't see before with my existing devices.

Another aspect, that I haven't read in this thread and might be of interest to some potential buyers: the screen is huge! When I first got the SSA3021X I was surprised about the size of the screen. Much bigger than what I would have guessed from the pictures. And the resolution of 1024x600 really gives enough room to properly display everything.

While I understand that professionals who have to comply with tight specifications need to use a premium spectrum analyzer (with a price tag that can easily have an extra digit), I would say that this SSA3021X will do the job for most hobby or casual professional application (if specs like bandwidth are within requirements) hands down. At the current retail price, this is a real bargain.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on August 27, 2016, 10:58:25 pm
Isn’t it funny how the picture format for screenshot files has become a major topic here in a thread about a spectrum analyzer – quite obviously just because it looks like a good opportunity to bash Siglent once again.
But Siglent needs not give a thought about JPEG compression settings, since this is an SA and not a camera of any kind, hence it outputs technical graphs. Consequently, the screenshots come as BMP and not JPG – most folks who have followed this thread and actually read what has been posted would have been aware of that by now.

Of course, we want to keep our documents small, so we use some tool on our PCs to convert the bitmaps to some compressed file format. RF-Loop has pointed out that PNG is the best file format for this, since it’s lossless and the resulting files are tiny nevertheless. He tried to get a similar file size with JPG, but failed, as the result was plain unusable. Even with twice the file size, the BMP was still rather ugly. Hardly a surprise – as PNG is able to boil the 1126kB BMP from a typical scope screen down to just 16kB – that’s a 70:1 ratio, without any loss of image fidelity.

The lack of PNG file format might be a little inconvenience – for those who don’t do any post processing anyway, e.g. optimizing the gamma for the document or adding some remarks – but still a very insignificant issue for sure.

But yes, it would be nice to have PNG as alternative file format for screenshots in the future, but that’s it then.

I don’t have an SSA3000X, but even so I would much prefer the firmware development team to concentrate e.g. on the TG control, so that it can accurately measure steep filters in SNA mode, instead of tinkering with picture file formats.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on August 27, 2016, 11:16:55 pm
Isn’t it funny how the picture format for screenshot files has become a major topic here in a thread about a spectrum analyzer – quite obviously just because it looks like a good opportunity to bash Siglent once again.
But Siglent needs not give a thought about JPEG compression settings, since this is an SA and not a camera of any kind, hence it outputs technical graphs.
:palm: Siglent has a long history of getting the format for saving screenshots totally wrong. So yes, this is an issue! Every manufacturer of test equipment has been using JPEG, PNG or even compressed BMP for decades. So it is just dumb they choose to use JPEG and not care to have a look whether the output is 'grainy' or visually perfect. People do need screendumps for reports and copying large BMPs into a document isn't going to help to keep the size down so the document can be e-mailed.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: radar_macgyver on August 27, 2016, 11:22:51 pm
Isn’t it funny how the picture format for screenshot files has become a major topic here in a thread about a spectrum analyzer – quite obviously just because it looks like a good opportunity to bash Siglent once again.

As an added data point, Anritsu's spectrum analyzers (with a 10 dB higher price tag) also use JPEG with compression turned up when saving screenshots. This was seen on a Spectrum Master 20 GHz hand-held, with the latest firmware.

Some folks just have an axe to grind.  :horse:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 27, 2016, 11:38:27 pm
Isn’t it funny how the picture format for screenshot files has become a major topic here in a thread about a spectrum analyzer – quite obviously just because it looks like a good opportunity to bash Siglent once again.
But Siglent needs not give a thought about JPEG compression settings, since this is an SA and not a camera of any kind, hence it outputs technical graphs.
:palm: Siglent has a long history of getting the format for saving screenshots totally wrong. So yes, this is an issue!
Since you don't even own one and have often declared your dislike for Siglent products after a previous unfortunate experience we can only assume you are trolling again.  :palm:  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on August 27, 2016, 11:41:26 pm
@Tautech: On the Siglent SDS2000 I owned the BMP screendumps where already an issue and thus brought to Siglent's attention over 2 years ago.
Besides that: I wrote I did some tests and hinted on how Siglent can fix the JPEG output quickly.

Defaulting to calling me a troll isn't going to work. Better come up with good arguments or just accept the truth hurts.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 28, 2016, 12:07:25 am
Hi,

I think the screenshot file format has been discussed more than plenty in this thread and it is making the thread longer to go through for no real reason. I know that it is in the nature of forums to deviate and discuss in full length certain topics, but I would like to sum it up, so we could move on to other subjects related to the SSA3000X series.

Attached is a picture I edited showing the Siglent BMP and JPEG output side by side. Zooming in, one can see the typical JPEG artefacts, resulting from lossy compression.
The BMP picture has no artifacts, since every pixel is stored 1:1 in the file.

File size of both pictures:

BMP = 1.801 KB
JPEG = 82 KB

It now occurs to me that I could actually have freezed the spectrum to save two identical screenshots in either format, but I think even so, the results are clear to see.

Sum up:
1) Siglent allows to either store screenshots in BMP or JPEG format (at least in firmware 07.07)
2) There is no configuration for the JPEG format
3) It is not possible to store in PNG format (lossless compression)
4) IN MY OPINION the JPEG image is perfectly fine to use - I would be happy to use the pictures in reports and magazine articles. Artifacts can be seen if one searches them, but the relevant information of the screenshot is fully usable
5) Storing a BMP takes considerably more time, which can be a nuissance (JPEG = almost instantly, BMP takes like a few seconds)
6) The file size of BMP is IN MY OPINION irrelevant, since any 3 Euro buy a 4GB flash memory capable of storing thousands of screenshots
7) Would it be nice to add PNG? Yes. Can *I* live without it? Yes: JPEG quality is perfectly OK for me and I do write for publications and if required I can store in BMP or through EasySpectrum on PC (which in my case is nicer because I don't have to go through the USB stick)

Hopefully this helps clearing this up for good.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 28, 2016, 12:10:10 am
@Tautech: On the Siglent SDS2000 I owned the BMP screendumps where already an issue and thus brought to Siglent's attention over 2 years ago.
Besides that: I wrote I did some tests and hinted on how Siglent can fix the JPEG output quickly.

Defaulting to calling me a troll isn't going to work. Better come up with good arguments or just accept the truth hurts.
:-DD
Again you fail to read or understand previous posts or blatantly refuse to believe what I have said.  :palm:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1012253/#msg1012253 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1012253/#msg1012253)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1012293/#msg1012293 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1012293/#msg1012293)

So moves ARE afoot to address this issue and further discussion on the file type issue is only  :horse:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 28, 2016, 12:20:38 am
Siglent is working on it!

And yes, nctnico, you can always go for a mail in rebate and trade your GW-Instek for a Siglent :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Muxr on August 28, 2016, 12:23:54 am
Siglent should really implement PNG. It's the perfect format for saving instrumentation screenshots. It's also patent free. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2083
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 28, 2016, 12:28:52 am
Siglent should really implement PNG. It's the perfect format for saving instrumentation screenshots. It's also patent free. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2083
We know.
To quote some content of a high positioned Siglent employee I got in an email today (yes Sunday here)

I think we'll have PNG in the next FW release. I've been talking to them about it.

Patience grasshoppers.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pascal_sweden on August 28, 2016, 12:31:25 am
There should be plenty of open source libraries available for Linux related to PNG :)

Siglent can probably even pick from several ones!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bson on August 28, 2016, 12:59:44 am
RF-Loop has pointed out that PNG is the best file format for this, since it’s lossless and the resulting files are tiny nevertheless.
Let's just be clear about one thing in general - PNG is not inherently lossless.  For continuous-tone images it has to map the tonal values to palette entries, which is a lossy operation that results in dither.  In fact, it's horribly poor for photography and you'll easily see dither and blotchy skin type artifacting as it applies a histogram-based mapping and dither.  It's *only* lossless when there are fewer discrete colors in the image than the selected PNG palette, so if you convert an instrument graphic with a 3-bit palette to a 4-bit PNG color map you're golden.  In that case it's lossless.  If you map a 10-bit palette to a 4-bit one there will be decimation and dither and the results are butt ugly.  It's *only* lossless in this particular use case of saving instrument screenshots and graphs, one it's absolutely perfectly suited for.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: GEuser on August 28, 2016, 01:15:13 am
In the 15 year old floppy drive scope i have the choices are TIFF and BMP , does this 3000x have a speaker in it? , they could set it up so when it saves a image to USB it also plays the sound of a Floppy at work (you do not know what you are missing out on!) ..
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: KE5FX on August 28, 2016, 02:08:49 am
RF-Loop has pointed out that PNG is the best file format for this, since it’s lossless and the resulting files are tiny nevertheless.
Let's just be clear about one thing in general - PNG is not inherently lossless.  For continuous-tone images it has to map the tonal values to palette entries, which is a lossy operation that results in dither.  In fact, it's horribly poor for photography and you'll easily see dither and blotchy skin type artifacting as it applies a histogram-based mapping and dither.  It's *only* lossless when there are fewer discrete colors in the image than the selected PNG palette, so if you convert an instrument graphic with a 3-bit palette to a 4-bit PNG color map you're golden.  In that case it's lossless.  If you map a 10-bit palette to a 4-bit one there will be decimation and dither and the results are butt ugly.  It's *only* lossless in this particular use case of saving instrument screenshots and graphs, one it's absolutely perfectly suited for.

You're confusing .PNG and .GIF.  .PNG supports true RGBA color.  (It's true that it's still not a great format for photographs, of course.)

There's very little room for debate on this stuff.  Manufacturers should support .BMP and .PNG and call it a day.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: et328 on August 28, 2016, 05:49:31 am
All in all, I do like the device very much. It is a great step up in regards to the best of my field meters with spectrum function.
But it can't do many of the things that field meters do. I'm also interested of the Siglent but I also want DVB-S/S2/T/T2 signal functions. So looks like it's devices like Rover HD Tab 7 or Promax HD Ranger that offer those functions with decent spectrum function. Too bad that those are way more expensive than the Siglent. I own two Emitor devices already.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 28, 2016, 05:54:57 am
All in all, I do like the device very much. It is a great step up in regards to the best of my field meters with spectrum function.
But it can't do many of the things that field meters do. I'm also interested of the Siglent but I also want DVB-S/S2/T/T2 signal functions. So looks like it's devices like Rover HD Tab 7 or Promax HD Ranger that offer those functions with decent spectrum function. Too bad that those are way more expensive than the Siglent. I own two Emitor devices already.
Your profile gives no hint to where you are.  :-//
There're Siglent dealers all over and many likely have a demo model to have a try with.
The last one I sold was carefully checked out by a forum member before he bought.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: et328 on August 28, 2016, 06:06:47 am
Your profile gives no hint to where you are.  :-//
Added the flag. So I'm from RF-Loop country...  :D
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 28, 2016, 07:04:17 am
All in all, I do like the device very much. It is a great step up in regards to the best of my field meters with spectrum function.
But it can't do many of the things that field meters do. I'm also interested of the Siglent but I also want DVB-S/S2/T/T2 signal functions. So looks like it's devices like Rover HD Tab 7 or Promax HD Ranger that offer those functions with decent spectrum function. Too bad that those are way more expensive than the Siglent. I own two Emitor devices already.

SSA3000X can not do this (http://www.emitor.se/prod_combolook_color_s2t2.htm) at all. ;)

But, also vice versa, Emitor Combolook  can not do what SSA3000X can if we talk about RF spectrum analyzer.

Just like my ice scream machine can not cook coffee.

Promax HD ranger is much more expensive "travel TV" but no any idea what it is if think RF spectrum analyzer.

Just, different tools for different needs. ;)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 28, 2016, 08:05:07 am
All in all, I do like the device very much. It is a great step up in regards to the best of my field meters with spectrum function.
But it can't do many of the things that field meters do. I'm also interested of the Siglent but I also want DVB-S/S2/T/T2 signal functions. So looks like it's devices like Rover HD Tab 7 or Promax HD Ranger that offer those functions with decent spectrum function. Too bad that those are way more expensive than the Siglent. I own two Emitor devices already.

Hello,

I was not implying that the SSA3021X was REPLACING any of my field meters! I was just saying that the possibilities of the SPECTRUM ANALYZER is far beyond the ones implemented in TV field meter!

If you need to do measurements for TV, CATV and SAT installations, you need a field meter, not a pure spectrum analyzer.

Yes, they are more expensive, but then they do have many special functions:
- DVB-S/S2/T/T2/C demodulator
- MPEG-2/4 CODEC
- Measurments: BER, MER, Constellation, Echo, MER vs Carrier, etc.
- Spectrum analyzer (configured to show transponders, hence normally with RWB of 1MHz)
- battery for on the field operation
- ...

Let me know if you need opinion on what device to purchase: I own devices from Rover Instruments, Spaun, Deviser, KWS, Kathrein, Emitor, etc. (unfortunatly so far no Promax).

Because I have all these field meters, I wanted to have a pure spectrum analyzer for special cases and to compare spectrum analysis performance on modern field meters. Some new devices feature a pretty good spectrum mode (like the Deviser S7000 - http://www.tele-audiovision.com/TELE-audiovision-1309/eng/deviser.pdf (http://www.tele-audiovision.com/TELE-audiovision-1309/eng/deviser.pdf)).

Example: while you can see all QPSK/8PSK transponders on the spectrum function of all these field meters, you fail to see some extra transponders which are not QPSK/8PSK. Believe it or not, but some very narrow band signals exist, which you can only see if you reduce RWB to 10-100kHz. I still cannot demodulate them, but knowing they exist, measuring their signal power and bandwidth, allows me to then try to analyze them by other means (i.e. TBS satellite card with CrazyScan or hooking up a radio scanner with ZF output for subsequent PC based analysis).

Regards,
Vitor


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 28, 2016, 08:25:25 am
Hi,

Here is an example: the first pictures shows the spectrum of Astra 19.2E as seen by the Emitor Satlook Color (which I presume you have).

The next three pictures show the SAME spectrum as seen by the SSA3021X. Notice how far I can "zoom" into the spectrum, revealing the tiniest signals!

Still, the Emitor will do measurements, demodulation, constellation diagram, show MER and BER and even analog and DVB-S picture. Totally different device class.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: et328 on August 28, 2016, 09:01:08 am
Here is an example: the first pictures shows the spectrum of Astra 19.2E as seen by the Emitor Satlook Color (which I presume you have).

The next three pictures show the SAME spectrum as seen by the SSA3021X. Notice how far I can "zoom" into the spectrum, revealing the tiniest signals!
Thanks for the info and pics. I have Combolook Color HD S2T2 and Satlook Micro. How fast is the spectrum display (of Astra) on the Siglent? Can you set it to almost realtime with resolution similar to Satlook? Or is it always way above Satlook Color's spectrum performance?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 28, 2016, 09:57:00 am
Here is an example: the first pictures shows the spectrum of Astra 19.2E as seen by the Emitor Satlook Color (which I presume you have).

The next three pictures show the SAME spectrum as seen by the SSA3021X. Notice how far I can "zoom" into the spectrum, revealing the tiniest signals!
Thanks for the info and pics. I have Combolook Color HD S2T2 and Satlook Micro. How fast is the spectrum display (of Astra) on the Siglent? Can you set it to almost realtime with resolution similar to Satlook? Or is it always way above Satlook Color's spectrum performance?

Hi,

I know EXACTLY why you are asking this question, so let me give you a longer answer, to make it eventually interesting to others.

The Emitor Satlook Digital series of field meters feature indeed a pretty fast realtime spectrum. This comes very handy for aligning a satellite dish, as you can immediatly "see" the satellite (much before a tuner can actually lock onto the satellite) and by the shape of the spectrum you can, with some experience, guess what satellite it is. Hands down, this is the best possible aid to align a satellite dish and fine tune it.

However, the Emitor products don't exactly stand out for precision or full set of measuring features. This is OK at the price they are sold. And again: I still use my Satlook Digital NIT (the one with the black and white CRT) as the primary device to tune my dishes, as it is the least valueable device to be carried to the roof. And the spectrum does what is needed.

BUT: the spectrum that you see, is just a representation of what is really happening (like with any spectrum analyzer) and in this case, the representation was made to be fast with a low resolution.

Cheap Chinese meters take this to a whole new level and actually show extrapolated spectrum frames with random noise inserted, just to show an apparently realtime spectrum! Disconnect the cable and the spectrum lives on for another 3-5 seconds...  :palm:

When it comes to a dedicated spectrum analyzer, it is not the speed that matters! I had to learn this myself.

Why? Because you can actually set the SWEEP speed to whatever value you like (within some limits)! But, if you set it too fast, the ADC won't have time to actually see anything usefull.

RBW, VBW and SWEEP go hand in hand and depend on the selected parameters.

Think of it like this:

The RBW is like the apperture letting in the signal. The smaller it is, the more detailed a signal you can distinguish.
SWEEP is the speed with which you will run the RBW "window" across the SPAN. Make it too fast and you "didn't have time to properly look into the apperture".

Finally, coming to your question: if I set the SPAN to 1GHz and use a RBW of 1MHz, then yes, the Siglent is as fast or even faster than TV field meters, including the Emitor.
If I want to set the SPAN to 3GHz and use a RBW of 100kHz with a suitable VBW (think of it as a filter to keep the noise level down by averaging the reading of each "RBW window" during sweep), then the refresh rate goes down. However, you will see things otherwise invisible.

Last example: Look at a picture with 800x600 pixels and then at the same picture with 1920x1080 pixels. No question which has more detail. That is what RBW is all about and apart from the Deviser S7000 no other field meter allows to toggle this filter. Some allow to select fast/very fast spectrum or something similar, which means you can select from two predefined RBW values. But the remaining parameters are still preconfigured to show analog or digital TV transponders (again, the Deviser S7000 is an exception and I don't know about the Promax range of products).

I think that the SSA3021X is not an option for you, if you are into dish alignment: remember that the SSA3021X does NOT provide power for LNB or 0/22kHz & 14/18V & DiSEqC support. I am using the Loop Trough port of a satellite receiver to get the satellite spectrum images. Also, the lack of internal battery makes it evident that you cannot use it on the roof.

So again, I didn't buy it to replace any of the field meters, but to learn, experiment, do DXing and to evaluate the quality of the spectrum analysers in modern TV field meters I get to test.

Hope this helps a little.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on August 28, 2016, 11:17:57 am
Today I had a little time for "Sunday Tinkering" while the "girls" are still to return from holiday and it's too hot to do anything else (the basement is my preferred location under these conditions...)  ;)

So I made a return loss bridge to use with the Siglent analyzer in VSWR mode. Some of the more difficult parts to find is very thin 50Ohm quality coax cable to make the balun to couple the bridge to the measurement port. Actually I found a seller for 1.2mm PTFE coax but then I came across an offer for adapters that connect an SMA socket to one of those ultra-tiny PCB clip-on connectors (for WiFi or cell phone equipment). But the best about this was that it contained about half a meter 0.8mm PTFE coax and cost close to nothing (at least compared to the amounts to be spent for a "proper" RLB -- it must have been arond 4€). So I quickly found some scrap double sided FR4 (ages old but the photoresist still working), mixed some developer and etching solution and tried if I still can "cook" PCBs "the old way"...  :)

To be honest, I planned that already some time before and slected some toroids for matching AL values out of a bunch.

And look at the result and how it performs, even without a shielding enclosure (this will be milled some time in future, first have to top up my stock of 10mm aluminium plate). The screenshot is from an SMA WiFi antenna connected to the test port -- doesn't seem to be the worst quality.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on August 28, 2016, 11:41:22 am
So I made a return loss bridge to use with the Siglent analyzer in VSWR mode.

Nicely done! I love that!

Now it would be interesting to see the usable frequency range – could you show us the return loss with a quality 50 ohms terminator instead of the antenna?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on August 28, 2016, 05:22:17 pm
Well, I did some more testing with the RLB, as-is, without any tweaking or shielding so far. Since most of my RF stuff is DIY or otherwise of questionable origin / condition, all the figures are to be taken with a grain of salt...

I did the following tests: The RLB is connected to the SSA via a pair of N/SMA adapters and 15cm long semi-rigid SMA/SMA cables, one straight and one 90° connector each. I salvaged these cables from a "Superfilter" (professional GSM gear), so they should be of reasonable quality. The first test was to normalize the TG with a straight-through SMA(F) adapter instead of the RLB and then to take a spectrum of the RLB with the test port open, shown in the first screenshot attached.

Unfortunately, the SSA somehow works erroneously on other traces if TG normalization is used so the following scans are taken without normalization. It appears the SSA occupies one of the traces for the normalization data but I didn't look at this in detail for the moment, I just disabled this function.

This takes us to the second screenshot. The orange trace shows us again the RLB with the test port completely open. For the magenta trace, I attached a 15cm semi-rigid cable to the test port, once again with an open end (open SMD SMA(F) socket installed). The cyan trace shows the same configuration, but this time with a reflective short (shorted SMD SMA(F) socket installed). And finally, the green trace was taken with a DIY terminator (SMD SMA(F) socket with 2* 100Ohm 805 resistors).

The resonance peaks changed significantly if I only touched the screen of the semi-rigid cable at the test port, so I guess proper shielding of the RLB will improve the situation.

Then I decided to keep the orange and the green trace and test two other 50 ohm terminators that I've got - the magenta trace of the third screenshot shows a Barry 50W power terminator which came with 23cm of rigid microwave cable premanently attached to it (nice beryllium oxide ceramics device with the proper warning labels attached...). I soldered a 90° quality SMA connector to the open end. The cyan trace in the third screenshot shows a MiniCircuits SMA(M) terminator (MCL-ANNE-50+ DC-18GHz).

Finally, I thought it might be interesting to compare the DIY RLB to a MiniCircuits ZEDC-15-2B (1MHz...1GHz) directional coupler, which is shown in the fourth screenshot. The orange and the magenta traces originate from the DIY RLB whereas the cyan and the green ones are from the MiniCircuits coupler. The orange and the cyan traces were taken with the test port open while for the magenta and the green traces, the aformentioned MCL-ANNE-50+ terminator was directly attached.

I'm quite curious what effect shielding (and maybe a little bit of tweaking) of the DIY RLB may have... Definitely still room for improvement, but as a starting point not too bad I would say!  :)

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on August 28, 2016, 06:21:15 pm
I'm quite curious what effect shielding (and maybe a little bit of tweaking) of the DIY RLB may have... Definitely still room for improvement, but as a starting point not too bad I would say!  :)

Shielding is a must, but other than that, I cannot see any significant improvement and the performance is quite impressive. I take my hat off to you and your fine effort!

Your RLB clearly outperforms the MiniCircuit device for frequencies >100MHz by quite a margin.

Your RLB appears to be very usable up to at least 2.5GHz. Now the intriguing question remains: how low can it go in frequency? 1MHz like the MiniCircuit? If so, you most definitely have a winner here.  :-+

(and if not, it's still great work!)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on August 28, 2016, 07:00:19 pm
The low frequency performance of my DIY RLB is superb and outperforms the MiniCircuits coupler considerably! See the following two screenshots. Also, a big plus, shielding is not an issue here  ;). Trace A is reflective open, Trace D reflective short. Traces B and C are with 50 Ohm termination, B with the MiniCircuits terminator, C with the (apparently more accurate) DIY version. I would say the usable range starts at 65 kHz.

What I really think needs improvement on the SSA is how "frozen" traces are processed. They scale properly if level-related adjustments are done, but if frequency-related parameters are changed, they just stay where/as they are. No stretching/shrinking or shifting at all so they are completely useless if they are supposed to be compared to a newly recorded trace that (partly) covers a similar span. On the DSA815 this is solved much better!

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on August 28, 2016, 07:34:24 pm
The low frequency performance of my DIY RLB is superb and outperforms the MiniCircuits coupler considerably!

Great news, congratulations!  :-+

To be honest, I’ve almost expected that – your construction looks like it has the potential for a very good low frequency performance. So in the end, you’ve built a really useful tool!

Regarding the reference traces I have to agree with you. References are of rather limited use if they don’t shift/scale with the current settings accordingly. Still I would not do it like I’ve seen it on the DSA815, i.e. I would not want the reference trace to extend beyond the existing data. If we increase the span, well then the reference trace should be only visible for that part of the screen where data is available.

Ideally, we would be able to zoom into a reference trace as well, i.e. going to narrower spans and even lowering the RBW. Unfortunately I cannot see a reasonable way to implement this, so it’s not going to happen I’m afraid ;)

The only realistic option is to compress/decimate the reference data for wider spans and spread/interpolate them for narrower ones.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 28, 2016, 07:41:57 pm
 :-+

Congratulations!

Can/will you provide some schematics and BOM, so that one could try to recreate your design?

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: KE5FX on August 28, 2016, 08:49:30 pm
So I made a return loss bridge to use with the Siglent analyzer in VSWR mode. Some of the more difficult parts to find is very thin 50Ohm quality coax cable to make the balun to couple the bridge to the measurement port. Actually I found a seller for 1.2mm PTFE coax but then I came across an offer for adapters that connect an SMA socket to one of those ultra-tiny PCB clip-on connectors (for WiFi or cell phone equipment). But the best about this was that it contained about half a meter 0.8mm PTFE coax and cost close to nothing (at least compared to the amounts to be spent for a "proper" RLB -- it must have been arond 4€). So I quickly found some scrap double sided FR4 (ages old but the photoresist still working), mixed some developer and etching solution and tried if I still can "cook" PCBs "the old way"...  :)

Very nice!  I think that's the best-performing homebrew return loss bridge I've seen, or at least it has the potential to be.

Can you be more specific about where you got the 0.8mm coax?  It's incredibly useful stuff.  I've been getting it by cutting up Murata JSC jumpers from DigiKey, but that process only yields 200 mm at a time.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 28, 2016, 09:24:16 pm
What I really think needs improvement on the SSA is how "frozen" traces are processed. They scale properly if level-related adjustments are done, but if frequency-related parameters are changed, they just stay where/as they are. No stretching/shrinking or shifting at all so they are completely useless if they are supposed to be compared to a newly recorded trace that (partly) covers a similar span. On the DSA815 this is solved much better!

Funny, as this is exactly the same problem I have with my SMA Simple Spectrum Analyzer software! I implemented traces (and set each to WRITE, MIN, MAX, AVG permanently on later versions). When you change amplitude, the stored values are correctly shifted in Y direction. But if you change frequencies, I simply delete what is stored in each trace.

The reason is simple: imagine I have trace 2 in VIEW mode for a span of 10MHz. Now the user decides that the span should be 100MHz. How should I draw trace 2? In order to do it correctly, I would have to actually ignore the span setting internally and record the full span, so that I could show whatever part of the span the user selects after having VIEW activated. This would require a really fast spectrum analyzer!

Alternatively I could just draw whatever bit of trace is stored, like a curve that starts and ends somewhere in the middle of the screen.

Finally, a cheat could be done, where the VIEW mode is temporarily interrupted to gather new data and then set again.

Now that you mention the Rigol, I wonder how they do it?

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on August 28, 2016, 10:09:30 pm
What I really think needs improvement on the SSA is how "frozen" traces are processed. They scale properly if level-related adjustments are done, but if frequency-related parameters are changed, they just stay where/as they are. No stretching/shrinking or shifting at all so they are completely useless if they are supposed to be compared to a newly recorded trace that (partly) covers a similar span. On the DSA815 this is solved much better!

Funny, as this is exactly the same problem I have with my SMA Simple Spectrum Analyzer software! I implemented traces (and set each to WRITE, MIN, MAX, AVG permanently on later versions). When you change amplitude, the stored values are correctly shifted in Y direction. But if you change frequencies, I simply delete what is stored in each trace.

IIRC the Signalhound SA124B removes the trace if you change pretty much anything - and it doesn't return if you change the setting back.

Alternatively I could just draw whatever bit of trace is stored, like a curve that starts and ends somewhere in the middle of the screen.

This behaviour would be the one I would choose - just draw what you have in the correct location when any setting is changed.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: papo on August 29, 2016, 06:55:14 am
TurboTom

Nice work on the bridge. I'm also wondering about your source for the thin coax -- this looks like a fun project indeed.

Since you and rf-loop had a good look at it... Question on the RBW limit when the TG is on: How would you characterize a filter that has a very deep notch, say 70 to 80 dB? The 30 kHz RBW limit seems to be a problem in that case since it's not possible to further reduce the displayed noise level. Or am I mistaken? I have to admit that while I feel confident about having understood how spectrum analyzers work, I don't think I have fully understood what's going on with the tracking generator in this instrument.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2016, 07:46:17 am
TurboTom

Nice work on the bridge. I'm also wondering about your source for the thin coax -- this looks like a fun project indeed.

Since you and rf-loop had a good look at it... Question on the RBW limit when the TG is on: How would you characterize a filter that has a very deep notch, say 70 to 80 dB? The 30 kHz RBW limit seems to be a problem in that case since it's not possible to further reduce the displayed noise level. Or am I mistaken? I have to admit that while I feel confident about having understood how spectrum analyzers work, I don't think I have fully understood what's going on with the tracking generator in this instrument.

I think this picture tell something about what SSA3000X is capable of using TG. (if talk about "dynamic range")  With external sweep generator, of course, can reach much wider range.  But, then we perhaps meet also SA own phase noise, depending filter width and other things.

Here is simply cascaded two Mini circuits SHA800  High pass filers. (poor method but stop band is well below so that only limiting factor is SA.


(http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/SSA3000X/SSA3k-esku/SSA3000X-21-TG-2-MiniCirc-SHA-800-connected-series-P-PK-N-PK.png)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2016, 08:35:05 am


National Instruments  LabVIEW driver for Siglent SSA3000X series. (http://sine.ni.com/apps/utf8/niid_web_display.download_page?p_id_guid=39C412A2D0A969BEE05400144FFAB014)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on August 29, 2016, 09:09:42 am
So let's start with the possible sources for very small coaxial cable: One source for 1.13mm PTFE / FEP cable is UCTRONICS: http://www.uctronics.com/1m-meter-rf1-13mm-silver-plated-audio-video-signal-cable-32awg-black-red-gray.html (http://www.uctronics.com/1m-meter-rf1-13mm-silver-plated-audio-video-signal-cable-32awg-black-red-gray.html). I didn't find a source for "naked" even thinner cable so for the 0.81mm variety, I reverted to salvaging pre-configured cable assemblies (from the "bay"): http://www.ebay.de/itm/171651868955 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/171651868955). Make sure to chose the maximum length available (50cm/20" in this case). One such cable was exacly sufficient for one of my RLBs (around 48.5cm required). I'll post a BOM and design information on my RLB later and probably in a separate thread.

@papo -- In general, characterizing a high resolution filter with the 30kHz RBW of the SSA3000X when the TG is in use isn't a problem. You could actually do that even without any filtering at the input (i.e. with a broad-band RF power meter), only scanning the frequency with the generator. On the SSA, the VBW setting affects the increments at which the TG scans the span, so this works perfectly well for filters / components that slope in the range of about 80db/10kHz. For whatever reason, components with steeper slopes (i.e. the high precision 1MHz crystal that I used in several of my tests which has a series->parallel resonsnce slope of about 80dB/1kHz), the SSA3000X produces artefacts. This hasn't got anything to do with the measurement principle, I rather guess there's a problem with the settling of the TG / gating of the SA relationship. I'm sure with some modifications in the SSA's firmware and maybe allowing a little more time for the sweep, the problem can be solved (though manual adjustments of the sweep time don't have any effect).

@Vitor -- On the Rigol DSA the "frozen" traces are stretched/compressed as data is available. But one ugly detail is that the last valid level is used as the missing data to fill the screen (see the attached screenshot, the magenta trace was recorded before and then the span has been increased, compressing the "real" information just to the left of the window). Of course, this doesn't make any sense but maybe the graphics engine requires all traces to span from left to right of the display window and none are premitted to start / stop at an arbitrary point. If this is actaully a requirement, I would prefer to have the level of the "fill-in" data at the minimum that can be displayed (-171dB or whatever the math resolution permits). Of course, displaying the frozen traces in non-vectorized form (or a dashed line if possible) would be best if they are stretched/compressed. This would directly make it obvious to the user that the scale is not matching the record for these traces.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 29, 2016, 10:06:06 am
This image tell better what is dyn range for measure filters using TG.
Green: Normalized with very short cable.
Blue: Base noise level (connection between TG out - SA in OFF)
Yellow: Connection between TG out - SA in OFF-ON-OFF-ON-OFF-Short(leak-peak)-ON-OFF-Short(lleak-peak)*)
*) in this case short peaks because it was my finger what was too close what destroy OFF isolation - just like kid playing - what hapend if....

(OFF isolation in this context "infinite")
(all time same cable, same normalization, same RBW and VBW))

In practice this mean that in practice  range is  max ~70dB - 80dB
(naturally as can see normalization is "mirrored" to noise level.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=251617:image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: papo on August 30, 2016, 08:08:19 am
TurboTom and rf-loop, thanks for the info, clarifications and screen shots. It looks like the 30 kHz limitation is exactly like I originally assumed. I agree that it's not a limiting factor for most measurements -- I have purchased the instrument because I very much liked what I saw. Yet I am wondering about the reason for it. Just out of technical interest, any idea on why the limit is there? I feel like I'm missing something here and I don't like that because with these instruments, it's easy to mis-interpret a result if one doesn't understand how the instrument works.  All possible explanations for the 30 kHz RBW limit that come to mind are somewhat strange...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on August 31, 2016, 03:07:08 pm
Hi,

I made a small and simple video of the Siglent SSA3021X being remote controlled by EasySpectrum in response to a few people asking for a video showing spectrum analyzer at work.

https://youtu.be/_qphYeB0-TM (https://youtu.be/_qphYeB0-TM)

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on September 02, 2016, 01:53:41 pm
I know that many people have asked for videos on the Siglent SSA3000X Spectrum analyzers. Shahriar will be doing a review although he has said that he is running behind on his Signal Path work.

Here is a nice video that one of our new aps engineers just posted to YouTube this morning. I thought it might be interesting to some of you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZPz-OUCSU&feature=youtu.be (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtZPz-OUCSU&feature=youtu.be)

Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 02, 2016, 02:56:52 pm
Nice video.

Perhaps you might want to make further videos:

- explaining general and special functionality in more depth (even for existing users)
- showing general performance (which is what I tried to show on my video): people are often just interested in seeing basic things like the sweep rate

Regards


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on September 02, 2016, 04:00:46 pm
Nice video.

Perhaps you might want to make further videos:

- explaining general and special functionality in more depth (even for existing users)
- showing general performance (which is what I tried to show on my video): people are often just interested in seeing basic things like the sweep rate

Regards

Thanks, Bicurico.
We will definitely be making more videos showing different measurements and applications.
Thanks for your comments.
Steve
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Jester on September 04, 2016, 08:32:12 pm
Let me try to put it like this: The Rigol DSA815 has a very simple but otherwise clearly understandable approach to measuring with its TG in use: Both TG and SA section scan the frequency span in constant increments, defined by the count of displayable pixels on the screen (round about 700 in case of the DSA815) and the span. So the TG outputs the center frequency of the "bin" (defined by the resolution bandwidth) the SA is sampling. Since the bandwidth of the TG signal in each "bin" is much smaller than the minimum 100Hz RBW of the Rigol, you can consider the signal to be picked up after a narrow-bandwith component (crystal for instance) a discrete frequency scan of the component. The video bandwith setting has no effect on the TG output.

The situation with the Siglent is much more complex and so far, I'm not sure if I understood it completely. Since the RBW of the instrument with the TG in use is limited to 30kHz and above, frequency discrimination has to be done by scanning with the TG. And here's the big difference vs. the Rigol SA: The VBW setting affects the discrete frequencies to be swept with the TG, i.e. a lower VBW setting results in the TG discrete frequencies to be more closely spaced while a higher VBW causes them to be further apart. Consequently, this also affects scan speed. Why this method of sweeping the frequency results in the "hills and valleys" may be the result of some "chirping" of the TG when setting the new frequency during a sweep. It should be possible yet to eliminate this problem by temporal "windowing" the measurement after the TG has settled. I guess Siglent should address this issue.

Cheers,
Thomas


My question relates to the TG explanation quoted above:
With an oscilloscope connected to the TG output of my SSA3021, I observe a pretty nasty looking waveform on my scope (see below)
This is with start = 200.0 kHz, stop = 200.1 kHz, frequency step = 1Hz. Sweep time 50 seconds

My first impression was there is something seriously wrong with the TG as I was expecting a nice smooth and clean looking frequency ramp. My next thought was that the TG is actually stepping not sweeping the frequency and perhaps the frequency requires some time to stabilize.  I suppose that if the SA measurement firmware knows the time required for the TG to become stable and then ignores the data while it's stabilizing that might be okay?

Decreasing the sweep time or increasing the VBW makes the really easy to observe.

Is this normal or do I have a bad TG?

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on September 04, 2016, 08:52:53 pm
An RF generator (which is what a TG output is) isn't a function generator so in general don't expect a clean frequency sweep. So yes, the spectrum analyser will step the TG along with the frequency it is sampling.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on September 05, 2016, 07:24:47 am
@Jester --

that's basically what I found here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408), yet I don't know why Siglent have arranged it like that. May it be unintentional, or is it done like this by purpose? So at that time, I wouldn't consider it normal but apparently it's present on all the TGs of the SSA3000X series of Analyzers. Other SA's TGs are also not the "cleanest" but not as weird as this. When testing high-Q components, the huge frequency spread may actually excite resonances that aren't part of the span one is looking at. As yet, there's no official statement on this behavior from Siglent. And obviously, there's the documented problem with analyzing components with very steep slopes in the frequency domain.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MotoDog on September 11, 2016, 07:36:11 pm
Is the 2.1 GHZ model in production now stable.  Should I wait to buy one?   Lately it has been all about output picture format.
I would not worry that much.  Is it buggy and has Siglent taken care of any bug fixes?   Are there any game-stoppers?

I watched the eval against the Rigol (which I got), looked impressive.

I want a tracking generator and it looks like the Siglent has a lot better noise
performance and the narrow bandwidth, as well as TG hardware built in?

I am just a experimenter Ham type.  I would be happy if I could retrofit the Rigol with a tracking generator, but they won't do it.
I bought my Rigol used, did not know it could not be retrofitted.

Thanks for any info!
Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 11, 2016, 07:59:56 pm
If it is just the tracking generator that you are missing out on, let me recommend this neat device: http://www.roverinstruments.com/prodotti.php?idp=4&camblingua=2&changelan=yes&idprod=214 (http://www.roverinstruments.com/prodotti.php?idp=4&camblingua=2&changelan=yes&idprod=214)

It is a small wide noise source, reasonably flat and can be powered by *any* USB port. It will consume very little energy, so even a low spec USB battery will last ages. But you can just pop it on the spectrum analyser's USB port (works with my Siglent SSA3021X).

You will get an output power of -56dBm from 4MHz to 2500MHz. I am not sure about the price, but I think it costs around 300 Euro. It comes with an SMA to F-type adapter cable and a T-connector, which is used on Rover Instruments meter's with the reflectometer app.

With this noise source you will effectlively be able to do the same as with a tracking generator.

Another, cheaper, option is this: http://www.ebay.de/itm/381623138109 (http://www.ebay.de/itm/381623138109)

This is a low cost noise source. Not as flat, precise and robust as the Rover Instruments one, but 10 times cheaper.

Carefull though, as it a) gets really hot and b) does not have any case or shielding: I broke the first one when the PCB touched a cable conector lying on my table...

To sum up: if you already own a Rigol, you don't really need to buy a Siglent just for the tracking generator. However, you might want to sell your Rigol and get the Siglent, for enhanced display resolution, increased bandwidth, lower RWB and more features/options.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MotoDog on September 11, 2016, 08:44:04 pm
Thanks!

Yes, I actually laid out a pcb and built a noise source.  2  RF Amp ICs looking at a Zener Noise source.
I never got it to work.  I guess I gave up.  I even used stip line technique per a data sheet.  Trying to keep 50 ohms.

So, maybe I better go pull out the project from the junk in the garage.
I guess if I could get my Rigol sold for a decent price $500?  It is still over another $1000 for the slick Siglent!

BUT, Rigol just released a cheaper model! Crap.  I should have bought what I wanted in the first place.

OK, go find the noise maker in the junk box.

Mike
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 12, 2016, 04:55:19 am
Thanks!

Yes, I actually laid out a pcb and built a noise source.  2  RF Amp ICs looking at a Zener Noise source.
I never got it to work.  I guess I gave up.  I even used stip line technique per a data sheet.  Trying to keep 50 ohms.

So, maybe I better go pull out the project from the junk in the garage.
I guess if I could get my Rigol sold for a decent price $500?  It is still over another $1000 for the slick Siglent!

BUT, Rigol just released a cheaper model! Crap.  I should have bought what I wanted in the first place.

OK, go find the noise maker in the junk box.

Mike
@ MotoDog
Here's the link to Ca suppliers:
http://siglentamerica.com/map.aspx?id=1054 (http://siglentamerica.com/map.aspx?id=1054)

Do remember Saelig offers EEVblog members discounts, use this thread to ask for the code to be PM'éd to you.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on October 03, 2016, 10:31:18 pm
Hi,
some nice curves - SSA3000X pushed to the limit:
1 - CW signal  -127dBm,
2 - CW signal  -143dBm
Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 04, 2016, 06:35:17 am
@Jester --

that's basically what I found here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg975408/#msg975408), yet I don't know why Siglent have arranged it like that. May it be unintentional, or is it done like this by purpose? So at that time, I wouldn't consider it normal but apparently it's present on all the TGs of the SSA3000X series of Analyzers. Other SA's TGs are also not the "cleanest" but not as weird as this. When testing high-Q components, the huge frequency spread may actually excite resonances that aren't part of the span one is looking at. As yet, there's no official statement on this behavior from Siglent. And obviously, there's the documented problem with analyzing components with very steep slopes in the frequency domain.

Cheers,
Thomas

It is under investigation in Siglent.




Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 11, 2016, 03:13:54 pm
 I know the US distributor is in New York State, but isn't service on these done back in China?

I just starting reading thru this, a quick question, is the general conscious this is better overall than the Rigol?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on October 11, 2016, 07:12:10 pm
I know the US distributor is in New York State, but isn't service on these done back in China?

I just starting reading thru this, a quick question, is the general conscious this is better overall than the Rigol?
Ohio actually.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/how_to_buy (http://www.siglentamerica.com/how_to_buy)

Repair of modern instruments is done at module level with faulty modules sent back to the factory if still under warranty. There are instances of members requiring replacement PCB's of other Siglent products and some have dealt directly with Siglent Tech support and others have sourced from their local dealers.


Do some more reading, there's some comparison between the two brands and there's also Dave's comparison vid between them where this Siglent comes out on top.

https://www.eevblog.com/2016/06/20/eevblog-891-siglent-ssa3021x-vs-rigol-dsa815-spectrum-analyser/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2016/06/20/eevblog-891-siglent-ssa3021x-vs-rigol-dsa815-spectrum-analyser/)
https://www.eevblog.com/2016/06/22/eevblog-892-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyser-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/2016/06/22/eevblog-892-siglent-ssa3021x-spectrum-analyser-teardown/)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on October 19, 2016, 05:04:47 pm
Hi,

some measurements with this extraordinary instrument:
directivity of diy return loss bridge,
reflection for 40m inverted vee and magnetic loop antenna,

regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 19, 2016, 08:30:24 pm
Upper image is from PC, running free PC software named EasySpectrum.
This EasySpectrum PC software come free with SA  or  it can also free download from Siglent.

Before install it, first need install  National Instruments VISA (Ni-Visa 15.0.1)
Also it is free. It can get from National Instruments.
For anyone not familiar with this 'add on' from NI, it is H-U-G-E!!! And I mean HUGE! I tried it once and removed it as quick as possible and that was no simple task since the installer did NOT completely remove everything, not even close.

It installs a ton of processes that runs continuously even if you aren't running the software which is unacceptable to me.
You might as well call it a M$ product, just as bloated, if not worse. I have no idea why on earth anything has to be this enormous for what should be a somewhat simple interface.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on October 20, 2016, 02:36:02 am
Upper image is from PC, running free PC software named EasySpectrum.
This EasySpectrum PC software come free with SA  or  it can also free download from Siglent.

Before install it, first need install  National Instruments VISA (Ni-Visa 15.0.1)
Also it is free. It can get from National Instruments.
For anyone not familiar with this 'add on' from NI, it is H-U-G-E!!! And I mean HUGE! I tried it once and removed it as quick as possible and that was no simple task since the installer did NOT completely remove everything, not even close.

It installs a ton of processes that runs continuously even if you aren't running the software which is unacceptable to me.
You might as well call it a M$ product, just as bloated, if not worse. I have no idea why on earth anything has to be this enormous for what should be a somewhat simple interface.
Yes it is large, it's a connection utility for many brands and types of instruments, however I've never had a problem with it or noticed it being hungry on resources.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 20, 2016, 03:39:22 am
Look at all the processes running when you aren't using it and the size of the program itself. IIRC, doesn't that need Net Framework also?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on October 27, 2016, 01:25:50 pm
Hello,

We have posted a new application note on RBW/VBW and phase noise and how they effect the frequency resolution of the measurement in spectrum analyzers. I thought some people might be interested in reading it.

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/FAQ/SSA/SpecAn_Bandwidth.pdf (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/FAQ/SSA/SpecAn_Bandwidth.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 27, 2016, 05:36:46 pm
Has anyone come up with a 'wish list' or a 'fix this list' for these?

To start;

1. A Mechanical on-off switch to completely remove power w/o using a power strip or pulling the plug,
2. A lower speed fan to cut down on the noise, and/or one that has a thermistor to operate when it needs to, not continuously,
3. Option to remove (hide) the on screen display in the upper left of the grid which is: A. too large, B. usually not necessary,
4. Resign the standby mode to meet the Energy Star limit of under one watt, not FIVE watts which may of been ok 15-20 years ago, but shouldn't be now,
5. Expand the 'grid' by narrowing the side bars and merging the top to the bottom. Too much dead (wasted) space around the perimeter. To much of the larger screen (over the competition)  is wasted

The first three also apply to Rigols SA's. Number four does not.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2016, 06:41:22 am
Has anyone come up with a 'wish list' or a 'fix this list' for these?

To start;

1. A Mechanical on-off switch to completely remove power w/o using a power strip or pulling the plug,
2. A lower speed fan to cut down on the noise, and/or one that has a thermistor to operate when it needs to, not continuously,
3. Option to remove (hide) the on screen display in the upper left of the grid which is: A. too large, B. usually not necessary,
4. Resign the standby mode to meet the Energy Star limit of under one watt, not FIVE watts which may of been ok 15-20 years ago, but shouldn't be now,
5. Expand the 'grid' by narrowing the side bars and merging the top to the bottom. Too much dead (wasted) space around the perimeter. To much of the larger screen (over the competition)  is wasted

The first three also apply to Rigols SA's. Number four does not.  ;)

1. Important. But not only SSA. All X series equipment same. I do not think so much energy save but also safety.
3. Display menu, Screen text  --> OFF.   It is there.  Do you mean some other thing?
5. Number of display points is 751.  It need many things if rise this. It is not alone display question. Perhaps many internal things are based to this amount of data points.
If only "stretch" this 751 for example 800 or some other amount, how to easy map data for display without any adverse effects.

On other thing is if left side can also use better for some other useful purposes. Example more informations.  One possible is develop markers information better when use marker table, but also when screen is not split to table and SA trace. Also visual ergonomy may develop bit more.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 11:49:05 am
1. Important. But not only SSA. All X series equipment same. I do not think so much energy save but also safety. All T&M equipment should have this!
3. Display menu, Screen text  --> OFF.   It is there.  Do you mean some other thing? Not the entire display text, just what is inside the grid
5. Number of display points is 751.  It need many things if rise this. It is not alone display question. Perhaps many internal things are based to this amount of data points. No, the area of the grid.
See the attachment for clarification.

What is with all these trailing zeros, especially with RBW, VBW, Sweep & Span?  ???
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 11:56:37 am
For comparison, here is Rigols screen with the same problems. At least Siglent's font size in the right pane is smaller.
I added the comment about the duplicate text that I didn't have room for in the previous posts attachment. The problem with the oversized, duplicates text within the grid is, many times it's in the way of the waveform I'm trying to see. Though it can be moved, that's annoying and has to be moved back later.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on October 28, 2016, 12:11:09 pm
Quote

What is with all these trailing zeros, especially with RBW, VBW, Sweep & Span?  ???

those trailing zeros are needed because they may not always be zero, see my post with a photo of a rohde crtu
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg948669/#msg948669 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/msg948669/#msg948669)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 12:36:35 pm
Then, show when needed.  ;)
Your example was only the center frequency. When would those extra decimal places be needed for RBW, VBW, Sweep & Span?  ???
How often do you see a figure with a decimal point with training zeros unless it was in reference to another figure with additional trailing digits?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on October 28, 2016, 01:16:15 pm
Quote

What is with all these trailing zeros, especially with RBW, VBW, Sweep & Span?  ???

those trailing zeros are needed because they may not always be zero,
But if they are zero then just cut them. It just clutters the screen and makes the numbers difficult to read. Also there are very few situations where the numbers have to show so many digits anyway.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: MasterTech on October 28, 2016, 02:06:46 pm
Quote

What is with all these trailing zeros, especially with RBW, VBW, Sweep & Span?  ???

those trailing zeros are needed because they may not always be zero,
But if they are zero then just cut them. It just clutters the screen and makes the numbers difficult to read. Also there are very few situations where the numbers have to show so many digits anyway.

ok, fair enough. Those zeroes dont bother me, but tell all other manufacturers first, rohde, anritsu, agilent.... Dont make it look like Siglent is screwing it up.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2016, 02:08:54 pm
Quote

What is with all these trailing zeros, especially with RBW, VBW, Sweep & Span?  ???

those trailing zeros are needed because they may not always be zero,
But if they are zero then just cut them. It just clutters the screen and makes the numbers difficult to read. Also there are very few situations where the numbers have to show so many digits anyway.

I like more these fixed lenght. When I adjust (not only with this SSA) example frequency using small increments, it is really terrible if length is all time jumping when adjust. Fixed positions are much more for human eye. I have also trucck load of instruments what really keep wholöe length without turnin these zeroes on and off. Counters, signal generators atc. When there is 1.000 009999 GHz on the display I really do not like if +1Hz and it turns last 0...00 off and then if +1 Hz agen on these last 0...01.   I throw it out from window if they change this. I do not want look this kind of "numbers jumping".  This have also very carefully designed and thinked example in Hewlett-Packard when they tink watching ergonomy in some instruments imho.

---

Then about horizontal width. Signal have 751 data points (1:1 with TFT resolution) , no less and no more and stretching this for more wide on the display do not give any advantages. Perhaps not disadvantages but also it may happen.

Adding real data points and then get more width, of course nice but also without more processing power it may slow.

Keysight N93222C  have 461 data points. (and tiny 6.5" 640x480 display) (also 1:1 TFT resolution)

Keysight N9040B UXA  have more, it have adjustable amount of data points, up to 40001 (this is quite powerful  and expensive tool)

Rigol DS800 serie have 601.  (and also 1:1 TFT resolution)


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 03:22:56 pm
Why do the data points have to change? I'm talking about enlarging the active area as one would enlarging a photograph.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on October 28, 2016, 04:26:26 pm
Quote
3. Display menu, Screen text  --> OFF.   It is there.  Do you mean some other thing?
Yeah, but then you are not able to see your data entry when typing in e.g. "FREQ" and then "433.1750" "Mhz". You have to type the whole number blindly.
I think the display off feature is nice, but should be enhanced: when pressing "FREQ/SPAN/RBW" or any number key, the display for this should be switched on again. By this you are able to see your entry. Then after a few seconds (after the last pressed key) it should be switched off again (only when the corresponding display option is "off" of course).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 04:41:24 pm
Your choice is the idea. I'm asking for a option to turn it off. My other point it is too large.
I don't remember ever looking at that when I enter a frequency, so I wouldn't miss it (assuming it works the same way as Rigols).
Title: Escape button to clear grid text
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 05:41:41 pm
Your right, I had no idea, is it in the manual, I never saw it?  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 28, 2016, 06:06:23 pm
Why do the data points have to change? I'm talking about enlarging the active area as one would enlarging a photograph.

Yes I undestand well what you want but..  there fixed real compued data points. You want magnify it. It means you add some fake "data" inside real tata points queye. Is it entertainment image machine or measurement equipment? Between what data points you want add these fake's so that trace is bit more long on the screen. After then, what we get more? What is advantage of generated visual arts.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on October 28, 2016, 06:22:19 pm
I think the "real estate" balance is about right.
OK, I'm no expert but if you keep bashing around in the UI you'll find that the "little" additional space that could be gained will only clutter the GUI and possible confuse newbies to spectrum analyzers more.
For those that are proficient with such tools, yes some more enlargement/compaction might be advantageous but who is the target market ?
If the UI is used to a full extent like some of rf-loops screenshots the GUI is then getting quite busy.
A quick look back a few pages to P13 finds some screenshots to illustrate both sides of the discussion:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239603)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=240557)

Of course Siglent will see/read these comments and no doubt have some discussion about your suggestions Bruce, whatever the outcome it's good to examine these things so thanks for bringing them up.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 28, 2016, 06:47:36 pm
Coming from a video background, when I look at a T&M display, I look at how large the most important part of it is; the actual test result area, the 'grid'. On this, more so than Rigol (since it is a larger screen) I see unused area around the perimeter that tells me, 'why not expand the grid'. I didn't take into account the 'data points' equation which I would figure is the same as pixels in a photo. Enlarge the photo in editing software, something has to 'fill in' to make up the difference.

My bad, learned from my error.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on October 29, 2016, 10:36:41 am
I think the "real estate" balance is about right.
OK, I'm no expert but if you keep bashing around in the UI you'll find that the "little" additional space that could be gained will only clutter the GUI and possible confuse newbies to spectrum analyzers more.
For those that are proficient with such tools, yes some more enlargement/compaction might be advantageous but who is the target market ?
If the UI is used to a full extent like some of rf-loops screenshots the GUI is then getting quite busy.
A quick look back a few pages to P13 finds some screenshots to illustrate both sides of the discussion:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239603)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=240557)

Of course Siglent will see/read these comments and no doubt have some discussion about your suggestions Bruce, whatever the outcome it's good to examine these things so thanks for bringing them up.  :-+

There is an opportunity to change the data under the graphic - in between 'Centre' and 'Span' or 'Start' and 'Stop' in your images.
Personally, I would add 'Start', 'Centre' and 'Stop'.

I can see why they have done it that way, and the (blunt) message here is that innovation and improvement should trump copying.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on October 29, 2016, 02:08:06 pm
On most spectrum analysers (the ones I have used) the frequency range is either start/stop or span/centre. It depends on how you input the frequency range. IMHO there is nothing wrong with the way it works. Sometimes I want to look at a range (start/stop) and sometimes I want to look at the spectrum around a certain frequency (span/centre).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 29, 2016, 02:16:06 pm
This is just one example image for thinking display development for improve useability.
(I have lot of images with different setups for thinking how some things can fix and improve. It is, imho, not bad now but there is many details what can improve)

Perhaps signal area can move more right and then get more room to left and after then then bit new arrange and there is room for some more information.

But this work is not at all ready. When ready I will send My opinions to Siglent development team.

One thing is clear. Bottom: I like if there is always Start f, Center f,  Span f, and Stop f  visible.
Also I like if there is more information visible about markers including some marker functions results and some things with these is now, If I can say, bit poor.  One wink to Siglent, if you copycat, do not copy poor things, copy only good things. Best is design own, better than others.

Also when user change start, center, stop and span f. Logic is not best possible. User is master, and if user want Start f priority it need keep start f untouched if user change Span. It is frustrating if I want keep constant start and then change span, now I need always after then agen change start and  in some cases I need do many "iterations" before I get what I want. Just why.
It can be much more clever or is it better say, more user friendly.
These kind of things are not really bad in this model but why it is semi good when using same money it can be good or even excellent. 

Example this (f change) priority can select with some clever way. Then I can (example) underline what parameter is set for "keep" or can it say highest priority. If I underline Span. After then if I change start it also change stop and if I highlight start then if I set Stop or Span it keep this Start. If I underline Span  and I change Center then both, Start and Stop follow with this constant Span. And so on..

Without marker table open there is room for display all 4 marker freq and level. Now it show only one marker.
When I use marker functions and select NdB example if measure filters so that one marker show -3dB BW and next marker -60dB width.
I want both (and all markers) can show this BW freq (and perhaps more info) least in marker table.

But, this kind of story is "endless".  These my example opinions are not at all finished, just only imagine someting...for example.

All things need think carefully and think pros and cons. So I will not start debate here how and what need develop better. This kind of work need good and experienced working team. But, principle is of course, every idea, even maddest idea,  is good in first place... ideas selection, evaluation, processing, developing, grinding and polishing, it is an art.

It is not like this and that is nice to have or like santa-claus wish list. Of course I want all... or perhaps not... I want what I need and make things more usable.. and also in different environments.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=265860;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: morris6 on October 30, 2016, 02:26:41 pm
It was mentioned earlier in this thread:

Unfortunately, the SSA somehow works erroneously on other traces if TG normalization is used so the following scans are taken without normalization. It appears the SSA occupies one of the traces for the normalization data but I didn't look at this in detail for the moment, I just disabled this function.

I investigated the behaviour somewhat, to find out what's going on.
Keeping it simple I connected TG output to SA input, Selected TG on. In the Normalize menu I entered Norm Ref pos 50%, Ref trace View on and then Normalize on.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=266047;image)

Trace A (yellow) is nice and straight loopthrough 0dB respons and the green trace is the "nomalization reference trace", the correction substraced from the actual SA input, if I'm right.. ?
Now in Sweep menu I selected Single to observe what is happening without the results running "of screen".
Next in Trace menu I selected trace A and activated View, to keep it during further measurements, with B or C..
This triggers another sweep and..

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=266049;image)

It seems another normalize correction was done to trace A. This is not wanted here, we want to keep trace A while we select trace B for further measurements.
OK, select trace B to ClearWrite..
As expected this triggers another sweep and..

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=266051;image)

While trace B comes up as loopthrough 0dB, again a normalize correction is done to trace A in View mode..?
Now in the Sweep menu I did another 5 sweeps

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=266053;image)

The frozen A trace, in View mode, gets further "corrected". If you had added some attenuation in the TG output before normalization the frozen trace gets an extra "correction" wih the amount of attenuation.
IMHO the TG function and normalization only works correctly for one trace since a trace in View mode, to save it during further measurements, gets "corrected" with every sweep.

It would be nice if the trace function could be used while normalization is on in TG mode.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on October 30, 2016, 03:10:12 pm
I have used the TG function in any of the SA's I have owned all the time, but I have never put multiple traces up on the screen.
I wonder if Rigol has the same issue since these seem to 'mirror' one another in many ways?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 30, 2016, 03:14:02 pm
There is bug in FW.

Trace freeze (View mode) do not work correct in this case.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on November 09, 2016, 04:44:09 pm
New FW for the SSA3kX
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SSA3000X-P08.01.rar (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SSA3000X-P08.01.rar)
P08.01
7.2 Mb

From the changelog:
1. Add “PNG“ file type for screenshot.
2. Support TG in RBW less than 30 kHz.
3. Modify default TG output power, -20 dBm in spectrum analyzer mode and 0 dBm in reflection measure mode, and some other TG issues.
4. Updating the format of “LIM“ file. After this firmware , the old limit files will not be supported. You can re?????? them through “EasySpectrum” free software easily.
5. After this firmware, do not support downgrade operation.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 09, 2016, 05:24:12 pm
Warning: A quick check revealed to me that the root password has changed!

Because you cannot downgrade the firmware, you would be stuck at the moment!

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nugglix on November 09, 2016, 05:35:17 pm
And the liberated options are also gone.

So BEWARE!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: janekivi on November 09, 2016, 09:37:18 pm
My quick check shows exactly the same files in \passwd folder
so nothing changed there...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 09, 2016, 09:42:25 pm
You are right.  :palm:

Both passwd and shadow are the same, at least for root.

I must have gotten stressed, as I was lecturing while doing the anlysis through RDP.

Sorry.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 09, 2016, 09:59:43 pm
To make up for my mistake, here is a Windows tool that will convert an *.ADS file into a *.ZIP file.

It will open with 7Zip, but the resulting ZIP is not free of errors. Most can be extracted, though.

All credits go to janekivi for his brilliant insights, which he shared.

Have fun.

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 10, 2016, 12:16:29 pm
And the liberated options are also gone.

So BEWARE!

Have you tried activating them again through TELNET?

It kind of makes sense for Siglent to replace the edited license file with a new one, as offical customers will have the activation code to reactivate everything.

I wonder if they only reset the evaluation time settings or the actual activation settings: the hacks described in the other thread point to two different ways of doing the hack. One way is to change the eval period to infinite, the other consists in setting the option as activated.

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nugglix on November 10, 2016, 05:43:55 pm
Have you tried activating them again through TELNET?

Yes.
Seems to be a completely different method now.

There is a new file w/ entered license keys.
The liberation method described above doesn't work anymore.

Cheers
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 10, 2016, 05:47:51 pm
Sorry to hear that.

Probably the application executable checks the signature of the authorised options. Without the key, nothing can be done, which is why they didn't even bother to replace the root password.

I would say that Siglent spectrum analyzers are locked again and probably for good.

Regard
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: megafix on November 12, 2016, 12:48:07 pm
Two things I noticed after upgrading from P07.07 (100.01.02.07.07) to P08.01 (01.02.08.01)

I had enabled all options and changed the model from SSA3021X to SSA3032X prior to the upgrade.
After the upgrade all options were lost but the model stayed with SSA3032X. In addition the newly created NSP_sn_bandwidth.xml has been appended with a license key for 3032.

Firmware downgrade is very simple. If you overwite ecomb (5054420 Bytes) with the previous ecomb (5007948 Bytes) from P07.07 all options are back.

ecomb is the main application located at /usr/bin/siglent. In order to replace ecomb you need to temporarily remount the rootfs as rw (read-write).

mount rootfs -o remount,rw
cd /usr/bin/siglent
cp /usr/bin/siglent/usr/mass_storage/U-disk0/ecomb . (in case the downgrade ecomb is located at USB stick)
sync
mount rootfs -o remount,ro
shutdown -r now
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 12, 2016, 01:30:32 pm
Thanks!

For all: The ecomb file can be accessed easily by converting the P07.07 ADS firmware file with the tool I attached a few posts before.

Open the resulting ZIP with 7Zip and extract ecomb.

So this is step 1: downgrade is possible again!

One thought:

If you can just copy ecomb from P07.07 and it works fine with all options back, how about writing a script for /etc to alternate between one ecomb and the other? Like you turn the SSA on and get P08.01. Turn it on again and you get P07.07 and so on. Even better would be some kind of boot menu...

*** These posts should really be moved to the "Hack of Sigllent spectrum analyzer ssa3021X?" @thread... Can some MOD do this, please? ***

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on November 12, 2016, 09:12:56 pm
Well, the situation isn't as hopeless as initially assumed: if you use peterdb's method of "liberating" the machine (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg998095/#msg998095 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg998095/#msg998095)) and modify the license node in /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/NSP_system_info.xml to look like this:

<license><_3032>TRUE</_3032><_3021>FALSE</_3021><_TG>TRUE</_TG><_EMI>TRUE</_EMI><_Meas>TRUE</_Meas><_CAT>TRUE</_CAT></license></system_information>

and make sure all traces of previous hacking are eliminated -- don't forget to delete the "monster.txt " (not sure if all this is really necessary) and then apply the firmware update, a set of license codes will be generated automatically and the options will stay active (just tried it on my SSA*X).

The new firmware apparently doesn't support 1Hz and 3MHz RBW anymore. Operation with the tracking generator active has been improved, yet when operated in the area that normally is covered in FFT mode, it continues to sweep and gets unbelievably slow. I always thought the Rigol DSA was a dog but if you have to use the Siglent in this high-res TG modes, you'll get a new definition of "slow"! Yet, the results are better than before, the SSA hasn't got a problem to properly measure the parallel resonance of my high-accuracy 1MHz glass-tube crystal. But still, when zooming further into the spectrum, funny artefacts become visible, yet I'ld say the result is now completely usable as it is. Did I tell it's slow?  ;)

So much for now, I may report back once I had more time to play with it.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 12, 2016, 11:00:44 pm
Hi,

Finally got some time...

I upgraded mine and had no problem. All options remain active.

As I thought:

Quote
I wonder if they only reset the evaluation time settings or the actual activation settings: the hacks described in the other thread point to two different ways of doing the hack. One way is to change the eval period to infinite, the other consists in setting the option as activated.

Those who actually activated the option instead of messing with the trial time will have those options with P08.01.

I confirm that the 3MHz RBW is gone. Maximum RBW is 1MHz.

I have not tested the 1Hz RBW, as I did not activate it.

So apparently, Siglent is not being too harsh.  :-+

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 12, 2016, 11:26:00 pm
There is a new version of the EasySpectrum software, too:

ReleaseDate
2016/11/10 18:04:23
Version: P03.02

Note:
1. Support manually IP connection.
2. Support editing and exporting “Correction” file.
3. Support editing and exporting “Limit” file, and off-line editing.
4. Add scale line to “Spectrum Monitor” mode

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on November 12, 2016, 11:34:48 pm

...

So apparently, Siglent is not being too harsh.  :-+

...

True but I guess for those who will purchase the machine with a firmware newer than 7.07, things may look different. Apparently, during the update 7.07 -> 8.01 the encrypted license codes will be generated if the corresponding files are correctly "prepared". During this update, the machine boots twice (at least mine) - would be interesting to know what it's doing there  ;).

And since a "proper" downgrade of the firmware is inhibited now (at least Siglent states this - I believe them and didn't test it), this "easy road" will be closed for future machines. There might be other options, for example if a set of files in the /usr/bin/siglent/firmdata0/ directory of a "liberated" machine gets leaked, it might run as well on a new machine, of course cloning the serial number of the "donor".

Cheers,
Thomas


P.S.  I modifed the attachment in my "patch instructions post" to be compatible with the firmware update (they have to be applied before the performing the update!) -- see here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg998366/#msg998366 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg998366/#msg998366)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 12, 2016, 11:39:41 pm
As mentioned before, you can downgrade, copying the P07.07 ecomb file on top of the current one.

This would allow modifying the license file and then copying back the P08.01 ecomb file.

I have not tested this, though.

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 13, 2016, 08:13:14 am


*** These posts should really be moved to the "Hack of Sigllent spectrum analyzer ssa3021X?" @thread... Can some MOD do this, please? ***

Regards,
Vitor

Lets hope all "how to try hack or how to hack" etc is important to move to this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/)

It looks like moderators are not interested about this.

The situation in which all messed up should be avoided.

Without MOD help it is possible also to other way. Some people can make one message where is quoted all this kind of messages. The chronology is also an important.

But, still I think that doing it now is better than later. After then there is small chronology mess with hack thread messages. But if do not it now, later it is perhaps more hard.

What is good point to start quote and copy to hack thread. I recommend that starting from first message about new 8.01FW.

I will do it starting from message 502 in this thread by tautech. Even when it confflict time order in hack thread.

I will do it but please do not send new messages to this or hack tread until done.
Later after done, please post all hack related messages to hack thread, only.   (use and test results wwith hacked or factory condition SSA of course to what ever thread.

So, please do not send  SSA "modifications - hack" message to this thread!

For mod-hack messages, this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/)



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 13, 2016, 09:28:54 am
Please, for avoid any mess and confusion,  please continue all modification and hack related "how to do" and hack study things to this "hack" thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg939720/#msg939720 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg939720/#msg939720)

There is now quoted in time order all messages from msg#502 in this thread. So there can continue these things.

For this thread all usual discussion, tests, bug reports, good things reports etc...just normal product discussion.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on November 13, 2016, 10:48:45 am
hi,
it is shame to lose something like that - hope in wisdom in this forum
- saga should be continued - :phew:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on November 13, 2016, 12:11:03 pm
I think that 1Hz and 3MHz RBW is not within specification and can actually cause overload, which is probably why they removed it again.

I had an overload alarm once, when I was messing around trying out things on the SSA3021X with nothing more than an unamplified DVB-T antenna connected! I accidentally rotated the encoder while in RWB mode to 1Hz without noticing it and focused for some reason to the PC and only after a short period of time did I notice the overload alarm. Fortunaltly nothing broke, but it left me with an odd feeling about having the 1Hz option... So I disabled it myself, to prevent accidental setting.

What I am saying might be complete nonsense and the alarm may have been triggered by something else, but somehow I think one should not operate the filter out of specs.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on November 13, 2016, 01:40:37 pm
I have done a lot of stuff with 1 RBW,  without any problem, but wit great experimenters enthusiasm.
Resolving power  of the instrument is simply extraordinary.

Maybe one question for analyzer experts:
SSA3000X is specified from 9kHz, but measurements is possible from 0Hz.
I have done some in audio range and have noticed that amplitude is attenuated,
everything else seemed to be fine.
Is it safe to measure so low frequencies ever, and when not why this is not blocked (in software?)?
Unfortunately, is not many stuff about that on the web? :-//
Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 13, 2016, 01:51:11 pm
I think that 1Hz and 3MHz RBW is not within specification and can actually cause overload, which is probably why they removed it again.

I had an overload alarm once, when I was messing around trying out things on the SSA3021X with nothing more than an unamplified DVB-T antenna connected! I accidentally rotated the encoder while in RWB mode to 1Hz without noticing it and focused for some reason to the PC and only after a short period of time did I notice the overload alarm. Fortunaltly nothing broke, but it left me with an odd feeling about having the 1Hz option... So I disabled it myself, to prevent accidental setting.

What I am saying might be complete nonsense and the alarm may have been triggered by something else, but somehow I think one should not operate the filter out of specs.

Regards,
Vitor

3MHz, 3Hz and 1Hz RBW, they are not specified in any place. It is fully possible they are for Siglent development department own use for study and develop these things. But this is just quess.

What I have looked, specially 1Hz, it looks that somehow Autoranging ADC system do not work ok with this RBW.

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)

Look  chapter 3 and there figure 3-3.

Also with Siglent SSA there can find these noise floor level steps. But if no signal or very low signals only, and with 1Hz RBW you can see only straight line without noise floor. Then you start rise signal level carefully using 1Hz filter then these level steps can see. With some level there can see bottom line without even noise and then just near signal noise  start step up.... something like this agilent image. But something in automatic  leveling is not optimal with this unspecified filter.



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on November 13, 2016, 01:58:46 pm
I think that 1Hz and 3MHz RBW is not within specification and can actually cause overload, which is probably why they removed it again.

What I am saying might be complete nonsense and the alarm may have been triggered by something else, but somehow I think one should not operate the filter out of specs.

Regards,
Vitor

I didn't notice any overload but amplitude calbration get's lost with RBW of 3Hz and 1Hz at signal sevels at and below -130dBm
E.g. at -133dBm the indicated level is off by 4dB (low) and a -140dBm signal
isn't visible any more while a -143dBm signal at a RBW of 10Hz is clearly visible.
See my reply #115 at https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/100/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/100/)
I cant't think of any useful application where one would need a RBW of 3MHz.

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 13, 2016, 02:07:45 pm

Is it safe to measure so low frequencies ever, and when not why this is not blocked (in software?)?
Unfortunately, is not many stuff about that on the web? :-//
Regards

It is safe as long as you keep true input signal level inside specs. (because it attenuate highly low frequencies.) DO NOT rise signal level for better visibility and looking only what level SSA display.  Do not forget true level what is going to N connector.
Keep True level to input N connector inside specs and all is safe. From nearly zero. (zero frequency exist only in "simplified theory" books.

Also remember that max is defined for  20db or more attenuation and limited to max 3 minutes.

If some people want he can also modify his equipment (with his own risk) for starting 0Hz but I really do not recommend to jump over DC block. After then user need really know what he is doing and carefully. Also internal DC block capacitor can change with higher capacitance but it need understand how easy then some signal may cause damage.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on November 13, 2016, 03:25:50 pm
rf-loop thanks for answer  i'll be careful!
I agree with DL4RAJ:
till -130dBm everything is precise,
and work es it should be!  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 15, 2016, 02:09:11 pm
New FW 8.01

TG  is now bit improved.



First some older test images from this thread (around page 13).
OLD FW TEST
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239046;image)
@TurboTom,  Siglent OLD FW




OLD FW TEST
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239109;image)
@ rf-loop Siglent OLD FW
Used Xtal name "Tedford 2-71"
With external sweep (trace B) and then using SSA-TG with 2 different setting.



(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=239048;image)
@ TurboTom at this time compaared with Rigol  815


NEW FW TEST
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=270592;image)
rf-loop Siglent NEW FW 8.01
Used Xtal name "Tedford 2-71" (same as used in previous test, but other probes )

It is clear that accuracy improvement is remarkable.
But adverse effect is - slow. 
With this kind of Xtal or filter (dB/Hz) it can run without any visible problems around double speed (optimal can find using RBW and VBW) Minimum RBW is 30Hz. Minimum VBW is same as normally 1Hz.

Sidenote. Also this .png image is now directly from SSA and original without any image adjustments. It is fast and it is now default. (if want, there is still crap jpg and then .bmp)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 16, 2016, 10:39:03 am
Here some other example. One 14.2MHz filter. (bit off)

At this time used RBW 1kHz 

Upper and lower limits and delta cursors are there only just for example without any special purpose.
(also as I'm lazy I use only minimal amount of points in limit lines. Btw, limit lines use real frequency and level points. If change span or other freq settings and level these lines follow.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=270816;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on November 16, 2016, 06:05:30 pm
Here some other example. One 14.2MHz filter. (bit off)

Yes,this filter has not been designed for 50 Ohm,hence the strong ripple.


Regards

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on November 20, 2016, 05:41:52 pm
Today had a closer look at the new frequency scanning scheme of the SSA3000X with the 8.01 firmware: I set up the SSA with a center frequency of 1MHz, Span 200kHz, RBW 100Hz and TG enabled. This results in a sweep time of 161.56s. I then connected the TG output to an MSO2xx2A-S scope and started tinkering with the settings while the TG was sweeping. It's obvious that finding infrequent events in a relatively continuous stream of sine waves may be challanging. But fortunately, at some frequencies of the TG, the aliasing moire patterns are well enough defined to visualize the change, see the attached screenshot.

The sweep isn't continuous but one frequency is held for a certain time (apparently something like e/RBW) and then the PLL is adjusted to the next frequency. With the parameters I selected, there are approx. eight individual frequencies scanned for each resolution point on the screen.

It appears that one of the PLLs that are in use to generate the TG frequency (not sure whether 1st LO or the offset PLL oscillator in the TG box) isn't locking too well (read: directly, quickly) to the new frequency since between the "measurement intervals", there's a considerable "chirp" with frequencies well outside the span range. Maybe that's what caused the problems with sweeping high Q factor filters/crystals with the TG (with 7.07 and before firmware that is) , and now the input is gated to prevent "seeing" the wrong signals.

Anyway, time is limited (family duties...  ;)) -- otherwise I would have had a less superficial view on the TG detais. I hope this information is of some interest anyway.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on November 20, 2016, 05:59:54 pm
New FW 8.01
TG  is now bit improved.

Here again my 8-pole crystal filter,once with 30kHz RBW (yellow) and once
with 30Hz RBW (pink).
Blue is noise floor in SA mode (30Hz RBW/1Hz VBW) with input terminated in 50 Ohm.
It can be seen that there are still around 20dB left down to the SA's noise floor.
For comparison once more also the screenshot from my VNA2180 with the same filter.
The Siglent now comes quite close.
Re sweep time:
I've noticed that the sweep time ist set to VERY long times in TG mode when one is playing with
VBW,e.g. 1Hz.When the VBW is reset to higher values,e.g. 30Hz or more,the sweep time
seems to stay at the extremely long value from before.
So it is worth checking sweep time if it can be cranked down bevor finally starting the
sweep.

Regards




Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on November 20, 2016, 08:00:23 pm
New FW 8.01

TG  is now bit improved.

Here some screenshots from my SDR showing the old TG version vs the new version.
TG1 is old version with 30Hz RBW of the SDR.
TG2 is old version zoomed in with 1.9Hz RBW of the SDR.
TG3 is new version also zoomed in with 1.9Hz RBW of the SDR.

The difference between TG2 and TG3 is considerable.
Signal is MUCH cleaner now and also stable.
The zoomed in view at 1.9Hz RBW of TG3 looks even better (small fft window) than the 30Hz RBW view of TG1
where you can't see so much details.

Edit:In all three screenshots the *SA* was set to 30kHz RBW in TG mode.
When VBW or RBW of th SA are set to smaller values the "spikes" seen on the SDR
move more and more together,i.e. the discrete frequency steps of the TG become
smaller and smaller.

Regards

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: mike509 on November 23, 2016, 10:07:49 pm
Hi Guys, I am new to all this,

I was wondering if there was an amplitude Auto-Correction setting to normalize the trace down. Due to external interference, I am getting 3 spikes (+18dB) on my screen when my DUT is not connected. The "Add point"  from the Amplitude correction seems to be tedious as you need to add the adjacent point ( ex 94.281, 94.282,94.283...)

Also, I saw a few post from people using Perseus software, does it work?

I will be doing EMI measurement on different frequency range (~5 ranges) with different limit for about 10 different items. Is there a way to automate the process?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on November 24, 2016, 10:37:37 am


Also, I saw a few post from people using Perseus software, does it work?


Perseus software works with Perseus receiver. Using Perseus or what ever radio  receiver  (conventional or software defined)  you can "listen" what ever transmitter. In this case  @DL4RAJ  have used Perseus for listen SSA Tracking Generator signal.

For test automation there can use SCPI commands, in this case PC control what SSA do.
You can look  SSA3000X Programming Guide (http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Program_Material/SSA3000X_ProgrammingGuide_PG0703X-E02A.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 08, 2016, 06:03:17 pm
Hi,

Does anyone know the SCPI port for the SSA3000X?

I am considering writing my own software,  but don't want to friend on NI to interface.

Thanks,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: alexo on December 08, 2016, 11:02:49 pm
I apologize for asking such a simple question : how do I connect a parallel resonant circuit ( capacitor and coil ) tuned to around 1Mhz to a Siglent spectrum analyzer with tracking generator ? Do I need some sort of impedance adapters ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 08, 2016, 11:32:48 pm
Does anyone know the SCPI port for the SSA3000X?

I guess my question doesn't make sense: I used Wireshark to find out the correct port and I run a port-scanner, too.

The SSA3000X listens to ports:

23 -> Telnet
111 -> Apparently to RECEIVE SCPI commands
897 -> Apparently to RECEIVE SCPI commands (* one of both 111 or 897 seems to be used to setup the ports for reception on the PC side)

The PC is receiving responses on ports:

3648
3649
3650

I don't know much about network protocols and I know nothing about SCPI, but I guess that the Siglent uses two different ports: 111 and 897 to receive data and sening data to ports 3648-3650 on the PC.

This is too much for me to fiddle with, without having any documentation explaining what is going on.

Seems much easier on the Rigol DS1054Z, where you just telnet to port 5555.

I guess I will base any possible software development on the NI driver framework, which kind of sucks, due to the HUGE software package that has to be installed, with all kind of services ending up running on the system...

Anyway, I stand corrected - if someone can tell me how to "easily" connect to the SSA3000X, please tell me!

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on December 09, 2016, 06:21:45 am
Just read about TCP/IP. You'll learn the incoming port is fixed and the 'return' port is always somewhere above 1000. This is negotiated by the TCP/IP protocol so no need to worry about that. Try to telnet to port 111 and 897 and see what works (or not).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on December 09, 2016, 05:14:43 pm
I apologize for asking such a simple question : how do I connect a parallel resonant circuit ( capacitor and coil ) tuned to around 1Mhz to a Siglent spectrum analyzer with tracking generator ? Do I need some sort of impedance adapters ?

Just put 50Ohm 10dB pads before and behind the circuit to avoid reflections and/or
impedance transformation on the cables.
This costs you 20dB of dynamic range but you can afford this easily as there are around
90dB DR if you set the SSA to 30Hz RBW.

regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on December 10, 2016, 10:08:36 am
I apologize for asking such a simple question : how do I connect a parallel resonant circuit ( capacitor and coil ) tuned to around 1Mhz to a Siglent spectrum analyzer with tracking generator ? Do I need some sort of impedance adapters ?
Just put 50Ohm 10dB pads before and behind the circuit to avoid reflections and/or
impedance transformation on the cables.
This costs you 20dB of dynamic range but you can afford this easily as there are around
90dB DR if you set the SSA to 30Hz RBW.
AFAIK that is called a pi-network. Another option is to use a directional coupler / directional bridge but either way this is getting into network analyser territory.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: alexo on December 10, 2016, 05:46:55 pm
I apologize for asking such a simple question : how do I connect a parallel resonant circuit ( capacitor and coil ) tuned to around 1Mhz to a Siglent spectrum analyzer with tracking generator ? Do I need some sort of impedance adapters ?

Just put 50Ohm 10dB pads before and behind the circuit to avoid reflections and/or
impedance transformation on the cables.
This costs you 20dB of dynamic range but you can afford this easily as there are around
90dB DR if you set the SSA to 30Hz RBW.

regards

But given that the LC circuit is in parallel with the TG and the SA input, wouldn't this crash the Q of the circuit ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on December 10, 2016, 11:10:30 pm
Depends what you want to measure. If it's just the resonance frequency, I would go the route with a return loss bridge and maybe an inductive probe (if your DUT permits magnetic coupling). Otherwise, you can also use two very small capacitors (in comparison to the resonance capacity) to couple into and out of the LC resonator. Or just use an additional winding on the inductor. It's all a question of what parameters you need to figure out and which options / tools you've got. My recommendation would be to just start experimenting with the system and gain experience.

Have fun,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on December 11, 2016, 12:36:52 am
I apologize for asking such a simple question : how do I connect a parallel resonant circuit ( capacitor and coil ) tuned to around 1Mhz to a Siglent spectrum analyzer with tracking generator ? Do I need some sort of impedance adapters ?
Just put 50Ohm 10dB pads before and behind the circuit to avoid reflections and/or
impedance transformation on the cables.
This costs you 20dB of dynamic range but you can afford this easily as there are around
90dB DR if you set the SSA to 30Hz RBW.
AFAIK that is called a pi-network. Another option is to use a directional coupler / directional Bridge...

An attenuation pad can be made either in pi or T-configuration.
A directional coupler/bridge is useless in this application as a parallel resonant circuit
has >>1kOhm (depending on its Q),so the return loss is near zero.
A directional coupler makes only sense when you deal with DUTs not too far from 50 Ohm.

Quote
but either way this is getting into network analyser territory.

Yes,but only into scalar network analyser territory which is far less complicate
than vector network stuff.


regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on December 12, 2016, 03:15:47 pm
Hi,

Does anyone know the SCPI port for the SSA3000X?

I am considering writing my own software,  but don't want to friend on NI to interface.

Thanks,
Vitor

Hello.

We will have this feature in our next FW (V1.2.8.2) and it is currently being tested. One will then we able to use SCPI to control the SSA3000X directly through LAN without having to use VISA.

We expect the FW update to be tested and ready in January.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 12, 2016, 03:23:37 pm
Great!

Could I then make a wish?

Using i.e. Rigol, one can interface to SCPI through one single port. This even allows using telnet as a client.

With Siglent, the port on the PC side is constantly changing. This may be documented and part of the TCP/IP protocol, but it does make life difficult for people like me, who do not master TCP/IP and want to start in VB .net with basic networking code samples.

The easiest is to just listen to a port. But I do need to know what port to listen to! It should always be the same port!

I think this could lead to some interesting tools to be developed. Take a look at my "VMA Simple Spectrum Analyser" software (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/ (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/)) and all the cool features I implemented so far. I would LOVE to be able to interface to the SSA3000X in the same manner, to be able to develop my custom measurents.

Thanks,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on December 12, 2016, 03:40:14 pm
I will check on this with the factory.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on December 12, 2016, 04:15:28 pm
Great!

Could I then make a wish?

Using i.e. Rigol, one can interface to SCPI through one single port. This even allows using telnet as a client.

With Siglent, the port on the PC side is constantly changing. This may be documented and part of the TCP/IP protocol, but it does make life difficult for people like me, who do not master TCP/IP and want to start in VB .net with basic networking code samples.
What happens if you telnet to the spectrum analyser? Does that work? If yes, then you shouldn't worry about the return port because that will be handled by the OS.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 12, 2016, 05:25:33 pm
Hi.

With telnet I can send commands and the SSA will switch to remote.
But I won't receive any return data, because it is sent to a different port.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on December 12, 2016, 05:41:20 pm
Hi.

With telnet I can send commands and the SSA will switch to remote.
But I won't receive any return data, because it is sent to a different port.
So it is a bug!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 12, 2016, 05:52:37 pm
I don't think it is a bug.  The port is previously indicated in TCPIP but I don't know how to handle that.  Wireshark shows that well. And VISA works, too.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rch on December 12, 2016, 07:02:51 pm
I don't think it is a bug.  The port is previously indicated in TCPIP but I don't know how to handle that.  Wireshark shows that well. And VISA works, too.

If you're connecting via telnet you need to either to send the commands you want to use over telnet, or run a program which resides  on the scope via telnet or make a new connection with a different program from your computer.  In the latter case, if it uses the same port as telnet you need to close telnet first. The new program will make a new connection with a different return port.  I don't think this is a bug.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 13, 2016, 12:01:02 am
Hi,

I wasn't home, so here a more complete answer.

I used Wireshark to sniff the network traffic between my PC and the SSA3000X, when using EasySpectrum, which requires NI VISA.

The SCPI communication starts at port 111 and/or 897 on the PC side.
However, any reply from the SSA3000X goes to port 4xxx. This port is different on every new connection and is told to the PC through what I imagine is a lower level protocol.

The problem I have with this, is that I haven't found a way in VB .net to read that incoming port number. So I don't know which port I should listen to.

Using Wireshark, I can see the raw TCP/IP packets and yes, there is the incoming port number. But how do I access it? No idea!

NI VISA supports such protocol and I managed to test communication under VB .net using NI VISA (hint: you need to install VISA with all options - somehow I missed the newer .Net runtimes on the first install).

But it kind of sucks having to install 600MB of software to then run a 200kB VB .net executable!

So what I am asking Siglent: please make SCPI work with a single fixed port number! The standard port number would be great, which is 5025.

Make it work in both directions and to test it, one could then just use "telnet 192.168.1.2 5025" to access the SSA3000X (which has IP 192.168.1.2 in this example).

As it is right now, you cannot telnet, because while you can SEND SCPI commands on port 111 or 897, the telnet session will NOT receive any incoming data on those ports! You can still verify the truth of what I am saying, because doing a telnet to the SSA3000X on port 111 and typing "*IDN?" will cause the device to show "REMOTE" on the screen and lock all keys except the ESC key (used to close the remote connection).

You won't see and reply, though, as the SSA3000X will reply to a different port.

Using one single port is perfectly doable and Rigol does that (at least with the DS1054Z I own: I can telnet, type commands like "*IDN?" and do get a propper reply). However, Rigol chose to use port 5555.

I have another professional device with SCPI support, that behaves like the Siglent. Again, that is not a bug and is according to TCP/IP specification. But it does prevent people like me to use it without NI VISA.

Hope this clears all up!

Regards,
Vitor

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on December 13, 2016, 01:07:15 am
First use a telnet client (the telnet command) and then write code! A component which sets up a tcp/ip connection should do the trick.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on December 13, 2016, 05:40:12 am
@nctnico: please read what I have written. YOU CANNOT USE TELNET FOR SCPI WITH THE SSA3000X, which is why I was asking Siglent to change the behaviour, despite the current implementation not being a bug.

Please try yourself and you will see what I mean.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on December 13, 2016, 07:30:10 am
First use a telnet client (the telnet command) and then write code! A component which sets up a tcp/ip connection should do the trick.

Is is better that you start first reading TCP/IP Instrument Protocol Specification VXI-11.
But good luck with windows telnet client.

It is totally other game  IF  Siglent implement telnet or what ever  based simple 1 host - 1 device SCPI communication channel for some simple PC2SSA use for some hobby fun. 

At this time there is VXI-11 and there communication need do as VXI-11  is specified.

Here very short example (and note for @ntcnico: without any detected bugs!)
There can also see ports and how it build link.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on December 13, 2016, 10:15:38 am
The instruments I have seen so far (including my Advantest spectrum analyser and Keysight multimeter) support SCPI over telnet (which is super simple to do) but for the SSA3000X it seems you have to implement the complicated VXI-11 protocol then. It seems Siglent did things the hard way by implementing a protocol which isn't even widely used.

Edit: where I'm hinting at: Bicurico has made some very nice software for a cheap 'Ebay' spectrum analyser. People like that can create an ecosystem around an instrument which can provide some additional sales. For that to happen communication with an instrument has to be simple without needing a specific version of the many megabyte VISA package from NI or having to implement complicated protocols which basically transport SCPI commands.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on December 13, 2016, 08:13:44 pm
Anybody seen this and can offer advice to a new SSA3kX owner ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ssa3021x-spur-345-mhz/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ssa3021x-spur-345-mhz/)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on December 31, 2016, 11:08:23 pm
Recent question about 50 and 75 \$\Omega\$ input impedance selection:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg1103377/#msg1103377 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg1103377/#msg1103377)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: alexo on January 17, 2017, 01:36:19 pm
In the screenshot underneath the spectrum analyzer is "looking" at it's 50 ohm terminated input between 0 and 2Mhz. The first 600Khz or so are very high. Is this normal ???? Shouldn't be flat(ish) from 9Khz ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: TurboTom on January 17, 2017, 03:44:58 pm
The shape of the noise looks like the phase noise component of the 0Hz peak (here the 1st LO will have the same frequncy as the first IF). I haven't got my SSA available right now so I cannot verify your finding, but the Rigol DSA815 doesn't show this behavior (see attachment).

You may check this closer by setting center frequency to 50kHz. If there's a "dip" of the noise around 20kHz and towards higher frequencies, the noise increases again, the I'm almost certain that it's phase noise.

Cheers,
Thomas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: alexo on January 17, 2017, 05:02:16 pm
Here it is...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on January 17, 2017, 08:24:43 pm
In the screenshot underneath the spectrum analyzer is "looking" at it's 50 ohm terminated input between 0 and 2Mhz. The first 600Khz or so are very high. Is this normal ???? Shouldn't be flat(ish) from 9Khz ?

As Turbo Tom says it is the phase-/sideband noise of the LO at zero Hz.
I've measured the  sideband noise with -98.36dBc/Hz at 10kHz offset,
see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg1065022/#msg1065022 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg1065022/#msg1065022)
which means around -83dBc/Hz in 300Hz RBW.
When you look at the plot of my SSA below you'll see that the noise is about this level around 10kHz.The noise of your SSA is a bit higher due to normal sample variations.
Regards

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: alexo on January 17, 2017, 10:26:41 pm
Thank you very much. I like this particular machine a lot as it is very quiet and almost spur free in particular around 500Mhz, the zone I am interested in. I really hated the thought of having to have it replaced or repaired.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on February 09, 2017, 10:10:41 pm
I hope no one is in a hurry, there won't be any until March 1st according to Siglent;
.
Quote
all our units been selling fast for this item and we checked with the warehouse in SOLON OHIO, and they have been experiencing delays due to the Asian holidays.
Quote
Many items delay since China Holiday
 Ruby Wu
Siglent Technologies America Inc.
Ruby.wu@siglent.com
440-3985800x103
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Chig on February 13, 2017, 02:01:45 am
I've spoken with TrioTest in Australia too, they are in much the same boat - they have *one* demo unit (fully unlocked for all features), but no stock of any new units for another ~4 weeks.


Chig.
(long LONG time reader, first time poster...)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on February 13, 2017, 03:37:42 am
I've spoken with TrioTest in Australia too, they are in much the same boat - they have *one* demo unit (fully unlocked for all features), but no stock of any new units for another ~4 weeks.


Chig.
(long LONG time reader, first time poster...)
Welcome to the forum.

Thanks for that, just asked the factory if they have stock and will come back with an edit. they are under pressure to match demand.
For Kiwi's I have one 3021X plus my 3032X demo on hand.
Title: Glitch/Quirk?
Post by: videobruce on February 23, 2017, 11:29:43 pm
Two things, the 1st is consistent:

Using the Tracking generator; if the 'Units' (under Amplitude) are set to anything other than dBm, the Normalize function will not work. If you remember, on the Rigol, when the Units are set to something other than dBm, theirs will automatically change the setting back to dBm. On this it doesn't, it just won't allow a normalize function to work even thou the TG function is 'on'.


There is a problem powering off my unit, but I don't have a handle on it as of yet, there doesn't seem to be a pattern. Even after I did a reset, the problem manifested itself the 1st powerup/down cycle. The next time, it powered off ok. 

More than once, I had to hold the power button down for as long as four seconds before it powered down. There is never a problem powering back up. I'm trying to narrow it down, but haven't been able to. I noticed this right off the bat upon receipt and initially though it had a delayed off where one had to hold the button purposely.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on February 23, 2017, 11:32:47 pm
On a side note, there is a F/W update on their site available released today (2/23/17);
http://siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5113&tid=227&T=2 (http://siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5113&tid=227&T=2)

Quote
1. This firmware must be upgraded from V1.2.8.1 or later. If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please to V1.2.8.1 first and then proceed to uplate to the latest version.
 2. Add socket/telnet-scpi, you can operate remote control through LAN port without NI-VISA installed. Please check SSA3000X Programming Guide for more details.
 3. Change two limit lines in different colours.
 4. When quit from TG, stay in“Auto”sweep.
 5. Lower some spurs when FFT.
 6. Improve the stability.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on February 24, 2017, 09:40:58 am
Hi,

This new FW is actually the answer of Siglent to a request I made in this thread (they didn't do it for me, of course - at least I wouldn't think so):

It allows SCPI commands through a regular telnet connection. This opens doors to people like me to program custom applications that use the SSA3021X remotely.

Without any promise, imagine this: a software similar to my "VMA Simple Spectrum Analyser" (made for the cheap ADF4350, ADF4351, MAX2870 range of devices, like the NWT4000 - discussed in a different thread) in a special version for the SSA3021X, offering all the "advanced" measurements, but based on measurements of a propper spectrum analyser!

More info about my software: http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2016/12/vma-simple-spectrum-analyser-download.html (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2016/12/vma-simple-spectrum-analyser-download.html)

Thumbs up for Siglent!

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on February 24, 2017, 11:14:33 am
Hi,

This new FW is actually the answer of Siglent to a request I made in this thread (they didn't do it for me, of course - at least I wouldn't think so):

It allows SCPI commands through a regular telnet connection. This opens doors to people like me to program custom applications that use the SSA3021X remotely.

Without any promise, imagine this: a software similar to my "VMA Simple Spectrum Analyser" (made for the cheap ADF4350, ADF4351, MAX2870 range of devices, like the NWT4000 - discussed in a different thread) in a special version for the SSA3021X, offering all the "advanced" measurements, but based on measurements of a propper spectrum analyser!
You will see more of this in Siglent products in the near future....but it's best left to be discussed in other threads when it happens.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 24, 2017, 01:40:36 pm
Hello,

I am after accurate noise measurements.
I have applied flat White Gaussian noise -120dBm/Hz to the analyzer.
I have done two measurements with and without pre-amplifier and I get about 0.35dB difference.
See attached picture. Probably this PA offset can be fixed?
Anyone with experience with the instrument calibration?

Thanks
Dimitar

 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 24, 2017, 11:00:21 pm
Hello,

Another things that puzzle me.

My setup:
-120dBm/Hz flat white Gaussian noise
I have tried to measure using "Noise marker" and setting few RBWs.
Each time I keep the VBW same as RBW and average traces enough to get low variance (0.5dB)
Detector is "Average"
RBW=10KHz(100 avg traces)  Noise marker=  -120.1dBm/Hz (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=3Khz (100 avg traces)    Noise marker= -120dBm/Hz     (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=1KHz (100 avg traces)    Noise marker= -120dBm/Hz     (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=300 (3 avg traces)          Noise marker= -117.8Bbm/Hz  (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=100 (1 avg traces)          Noise marker= -118.3Bbm/Hz  (trace variance +/-0.5dB)

For the RBW 300Hz and 100Hz my measurement is about 2dB too strong. Do you think it is a bug?
Should I prefer big RBW and many trace averaging or small RBW and less  trace averaging?

I also have compared the dBm readings on the screen at the marker and what the "Noise marker" calculates
for example I see my trace at -95dBm with the RBW=300Hz  and I expect power density -95-10*log10(300)=-119.77 dBm/Hz
but the noise marker calculates it to  -117.8 dBm/Hz (2dB too strong)
It is interesting how the analyzer is calculating the "Noise marker"?

Things are getting even more confusing as I noticed that what I see on screen differs from the regular dBm marker with sometimes 1dB
See the attached picture. So I am not sure I should believe the trace and grid or the marker.

Any comments on all this is welcome.

Thanks
Dimitar
 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on February 24, 2017, 11:30:28 pm
Aren't you looking at the SA's own noise level at the higher RBW settings? Using a -120dBm noise source may not be the best way.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on February 24, 2017, 11:38:22 pm
http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html)

 :)

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2017, 03:12:41 am
http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html)

 :)

Regards,
Vitor
Exactly.  :-+

@ dpenev
Any comments of measurement should always be made with the # firmware version in use.
The latest (8.2) was released yesterday.
Please comfirm the one you have installed.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 25, 2017, 07:12:44 am
@nctnico it is - 120dbm/hz noise power density, not - 120dbm. I think I am far above the noise floor
@Tautech all was done with 8.1 will update and redo
Meanwhile I found agilent app note for noise marker they do a few compensation. http://www.ab4oj.com/test/docs/5966-4008E.pdf (http://www.ab4oj.com/test/docs/5966-4008E.pdf)
Wondering if Siglent implementation is OK

Thanks!

Sent from my MI NOTE Pro using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on February 25, 2017, 10:11:49 am
About noise level measurements.


Noise level need corrections due to distribution (Rayleight distribution) and correction for gaussian type and rectangle filter etc. Noise dB/Hz is so that there is 1Hz wide "window". Just like you se noise and then cut 1 Hz wide slice from it.  But because SSA can not do it, independent of brand. Is it R&S, Keysight or what ever, it use  filters what are typically "gaussian like" (exept that.... but not here...)

This is overall nice explanation how SSA3kX works. (when you read compatible things there)   http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)
Whole chapteer 5 is good to read from start to end.

Finally there need do some approximation and without nitpicking just find some factor what is "near enough" right.  In Siglent it looks like this correction factor constant is 2.5 or 2.51dB.


This image is just one example for pick up this factor. (previously I have made more many different tests and all tests are in line with this one.  Previously in this forum this factor have also noted.  It is also handled in other Agilent app note (150)

In image there is 2 traces. A and B.  They are overlayed and B is top.
SSA3kX FW 1.2.8.2

Marker 1  read trace A level  dBm
Marker 2 read trace B level but show normalized level for dBm/Hz   (1Hz)
RBW is 10kHz.  So subtract 40dB
Add noise 1Hz normalization factor ~2.5dB  Who knows if this is exactly right for just these filters and other things. It can be exactly right in very rare cases but still I'm quite sure it is mostly wrong (but enough close right for normal use). Nearly all is wrong and what ever you see on the screen is still lie, sum of errors, what ever you try or how ever perfect human made machine you do it show all wrong - more or less. Test and measurement world is this.  But if it is enough right we can happy use these.   
It is just "close enough to the truth" for this kind of purposes what is typical use of this kind of SSA's.
Slide rule as calculator and HP T141+plugins  as SA and ITT as DMM, they are nice, they do not fool user with last digits after decimal point...





(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=294771;image)



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on February 25, 2017, 03:50:45 pm
http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html)

Hi Vitor,
now seen on your Satellite Blog, looks very promising - congratulation :-+

Regards,
Bozidar
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on February 25, 2017, 04:48:22 pm
http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html (http://vma-satellite.blogspot.pt/2017/02/siglent-ssa3021x-new-firmware-p0802.html)

Hi Vitor,
now seen on your Satellite Blog, looks very promising - congratulation :-+

Regards,
Bozidar

Same here.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: michael2 on February 25, 2017, 09:05:39 pm
After a few months without my hobby, I decided to look for a new firmware for my SSA, and found this note:

Quote
1. This firmware must be upgraded from V1.2.8.1 or later. If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please to V1.2.8.1 first and then proceed to uplate to the latest version.

Hmm. I don't have V1.2.8.1.   :-//  And Siglent doesn't provide a link to this older firmware.   :palm:

Please, can somebody help me and send me the older firmware?   ^-^

Thank you in advance!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on February 25, 2017, 10:28:11 pm
After a few months without my hobby, I decided to look for a new firmware for my SSA, and found this note:

Quote
1. This firmware must be upgraded from V1.2.8.1 or later. If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please to V1.2.8.1 first and then proceed to uplate to the latest version.

Hmm. I don't have V1.2.8.1.   :-//  And Siglent doesn't provide a link to this older firmware.   :palm:

Please, can somebody help me and send me the older firmware?   ^-^

Thank you in advance!
All previous versions of firmware for any Siglent model or series are listed in this page:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15)

Latest versions are at the top.
Scroll down or next page until you find the one you need.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on February 26, 2017, 01:44:47 am
Hi,

Here is a small demo of the work in progress. Not very useful at the moment, as lots of funtionallity still missing.

Pic 1: Current state.
Pic 2: VMA Simple Spectrum Analyser for ADF4350/ADF4351/MAX2870 devices.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on February 26, 2017, 08:44:24 am
Vitor,

how fast is actually your application (specially the waterfall diagram)?

Regards,
Bozidar
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on February 26, 2017, 10:05:55 am
Pretty fast, at least compared to the other version for the small Chinese devices.
It depends on the settings, though, especially RBW and VBW.
For reasonable settings it is very fast. If you have a SSA3021X, try it yourself.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on February 26, 2017, 11:29:28 am
I think it is useful to start separate new topic just for this VMA - SSA. 

If we continue it here it may lead endless talking about this software this and that mixed with only SSA3000X things. Who can then find anything what is about SSA3000X itself or about your nice development work..



My opinion is that it is useful to start own topic for this VMA-SSA  and not so much mess this thread. If we mix these things here and if there come many messages for this, then it is very hard for forum vistors find real things for SSA3000X itself.  Just like "mod"  is also in separate thread.

@Bicurico   this is nice work and I hope this can develop to very useful software - it is hard work.

---------------
Edit / Add:
New thread for this nice work by Bicurico can find here:

 :-+   https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/vma-simple-spectrum-analyser-for-siglent-ssa3021x/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/vma-simple-spectrum-analyser-for-siglent-ssa3021x/)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on February 26, 2017, 11:41:52 am
Yes, i totally agree with rf-loop -
 own topic for this VMA-SSA will be perfect,
 so Vitor, please open a new topic,
 your software definitely deserve that :-+

Regards,
Bozidar
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 26, 2017, 06:32:56 pm
Hi Gents,

During upgrade (from 7.07 to 8.1 and then up to 8.2) the progress bar I get goes up to 40% and then instrument reboots.
I get logo which stays for a while and the instrument  reboots again into the normal working mode.

Is this the same behavior you have during the upgrade?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on February 26, 2017, 07:38:04 pm
Hi Gents,

During upgrade (from 7.07 to 8.1 and then up to 8.2) the progress bar I get goes up to 40% and then instrument reboots.
I get logo which stays for a while and the instrument  reboots again into the normal working mode.

Is this the same behavior you have during the upgrade?

Thanks!
Yes, to date this has happened in all firmware updates. It is normal.
My 3032X demo unit arrived with 7.01 and with every update since, SSA3kX has auto double booted while updating.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on February 27, 2017, 09:39:35 am
Another successfully upgraded SSA to 8.2  :)
Thanks to the community
Regards,
Bozidar

 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on February 27, 2017, 03:13:25 pm
Hello,

I am after accurate noise measurements.
I have applied flat White Gaussian noise -120dBm/Hz to the analyzer.
I have done two measurements with and without pre-amplifier and I get about 0.35dB difference.
See attached picture. Probably this PA offset can be fixed?
Anyone with experience with the instrument calibration?
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=294561;image)
Thanks
Dimitar

Real "factory" calibration need so many things and so on... 

But, if really want do some own corrections and if really ( I mean really) know what to do there is one method.  But if not have enough accurate and trusted signal sources I do not recommend.

There is inside system one file. In this file there is correction table for PA. It have 806 data points over whole frequency bandwidth (3.2G)

This file is in "calib" folder.  File name is cali_pa

It need telnet connection and knowledge how to operate there.

Best is first take backup from all important data there.

After then make own edited cali_pa file. Then change it to system. And keep original also there (renaamed) so that these can later swap when need/want.

In this image is one very rough experiment.
cali_pa data table edited very roughly for get this figure.
One data point in table is in form 0x00000000
In my unit this part of table is roughly around 0x00001000   and edited table have first steps same.
After then 5 data points 0x00002000 and after then next 5 positions 0x000007FF and then next fiive 0x00001000 and then just where is image right side start next five  0x000017FF  but these are not visible..

It looks like cal daata do not affect linear and also it depends frequency and I suspect it is very different with individual preamplifiers... 

Around 100MHz and around 0x00001000 value  0.1dB is roughly (hex) 1F ~ 23

trace A: PA on, just SSA noise without signal and modified cali_pa in use.
trace B: Sweep with external sweeper 1 - 80MHz!  (this sweeper is NOT level accurate) but there can se same figure. (last ~20MHz rise around 10dB due to harmonics etc during sweep. Trace mode "max hold")

This is only for give some idea.....  (but carefully, it is very easy to do more damage there than useful... )

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=295330;image)





Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 27, 2017, 11:12:33 pm
Hello,

Another things that puzzle me.

My setup:
-120dBm/Hz flat white Gaussian noise
I have tried to measure using "Noise marker" and setting few RBWs.
Each time I keep the VBW same as RBW and average traces enough to get low variance (0.5dB)
Detector is "Average"
RBW=10KHz(100 avg traces)  Noise marker=  -120.1dBm/Hz (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=3Khz (100 avg traces)    Noise marker= -120dBm/Hz     (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=1KHz (100 avg traces)    Noise marker= -120dBm/Hz     (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=300 (3 avg traces)          Noise marker= -117.8Bbm/Hz  (trace variance +/-0.5dB)
RBW=100 (1 avg traces)          Noise marker= -118.3Bbm/Hz  (trace variance +/-0.5dB)

For the RBW 300Hz and 100Hz my measurement is about 2dB too strong. Do you think it is a bug?
Should I prefer big RBW and many trace averaging or small RBW and less  trace averaging?

I also have compared the dBm readings on the screen at the marker and what the "Noise marker" calculates
for example I see my trace at -95dBm with the RBW=300Hz  and I expect power density -95-10*log10(300)=-119.77 dBm/Hz
but the noise marker calculates it to  -117.8 dBm/Hz (2dB too strong)
It is interesting how the analyzer is calculating the "Noise marker"?

Things are getting even more confusing as I noticed that what I see on screen differs from the regular dBm marker with sometimes 1dB
See the attached picture. So I am not sure I should believe the trace and grid or the marker.

Any comments on all this is welcome.

Thanks
Dimitar
 

Hello,

I have redone the above measurements using latest firmware 8.2
The above values I get the same.

Then I have used another white noise source to check (General purpose arbitrary waveform generator)
and I got more equal noise power estimation at RBW=10KHz and 300Hz.

Then I realize that my original noise although random is actually limited record length which is repeated (34Hz repetition rate)
and so discrete spectrum. This is most probably make my noise marker 1.5dB off at low RBWs?
The noise sampling rate is much bigger then my measurement frequency range.   

To summarize, my experiment may be useful for someone.
(Or someone can explain the results)   
The difference in the noise power spectrum measurements for RBW 10KHz and 300Hz is: (for a few input noise level values)

Source A (white noise but the record is limited in time and repeated with 34Hz)
~ -100 dBm/Hz    1.5 dB
~ -120 dBm/Hz    2 dB
~ -133 dBm/Hz    1.6 dB

Source B (AWG) better results in the specified Analyzer tolerances.
~ -80 dBm/Hz      0.8dB
~ -133 dBm/Hz      0.5dB


Thanks
Dimitar

 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 28, 2017, 08:19:41 am
Hello again

Doing some more experiments I am observing something I believe is an issue
I was measuring my -120dbm/Hz white noise (two noise sources have been tested ) and decide to compare two spans 10MHz and 50MHz using RBW=VBW=300Hz
Each time I was measuring the noise marker around 5MHz.
See the attached plot.  The old trace was for the 10MHz span and I have measured noise power -120dBm/Hz @5MHz
The new span is 50MHz , all other settings the same
The new partially plotted trace measures -117.47 dBm/Hz @ 5MHz so 2.5dB more.
Why the analyzer shows different power at the different span settings?

This issue I don't see for RBW=VBW=10KHz 
 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on February 28, 2017, 10:43:52 am
Here is two images.Both have two traces.
All have Detector=VideoAverage
All have exactly same pseudorandom noise level input.
All have same center freq, 5MHz
All have RBW=VBW=300Hz
Image where is span 100kHz and 500kHz it have both traces sweep mode "sweep" and both traces set for same sweep time around 54s (manually forced).
Image where is 1MHz and 10MHz span, it have both traces sweep mode "FFT" and 1MHz span have (automatic) 3.8s sweep time and 10MHz span sweep time is (automatic) 42.8s

I can not see any significant differences  between different spans from 100kHz to 10MHz span.
(also I have tested many times and also bit different settings. All results in same ballpark.)

Is it possible you have some  error in your test system or user error or some other problem. Wit these your exercise tests I do not believe your SSA is broken without real trusted evidences.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=295563;image)
A span 100kHz, B span 500kHz


(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=295565;image)
A span 1MHz, B span 10MHz
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on February 28, 2017, 02:42:44 pm
Hi rf-loot,

Thank you for the measurements.
I have double check and clearly see the issue.
See attached.
Yellow measurement is for the span 0 - 50MHz
Pink trace is for the span 0 - 10MHz

In your case you have not checked the 50MHz range.
Can you set wide band white noise at the analyzer input (the signal level you have used I think should be OK)
Measure with the same settings you already used from 0 - 10MHz and then 0 -  50 MHz.

Thanks
Dimitar
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on February 28, 2017, 03:27:44 pm
Hi rf-loot,

Thank you for the measurements.
I have double check and clearly see the issue.
See attached.
Yellow measurement is for the span 0 - 50MHz
Pink trace is for the span 0 - 10MHz

In your case you have not checked the 50MHz range.
Can you set wide band white noise at the analyzer input (the signal level you have used I think should be OK)
Measure with the same settings you already used from 0 - 10MHz and then 0 -  50 MHz.

Thanks
Dimitar

After now I have better imagine what was your test. I have done now some fast tiny checkings. More deep tests are time consuming together with documenting and I do not have more than 24h in my clock for day. If I can find 28h/day clock from some shop it may help..

I have not now images to show my tests but now I have seen it with my SA and my suspect is: there must be some kind of bug. It also looks like Error depends start and stop frequencies (and span). Small change in span and error looks like disappear and with bit different settings it show this error.
Just two examples (starting 0Hz):   Stop freq 50MHz not ok,  49.3Mhz ok,  48.36MHz not ok... and so on.
I will do some more tests and report to Shenzhen.



Title: Quirks & bugs to fix or add
Post by: videobruce on February 28, 2017, 09:00:38 pm
Many of these have already been reported I'm told by Siglent, but since I already composed a list of needed 'changes' I'll post them here for convenience. Note " 1" is skipped since it requires a separate entry due to it being what I consider fairly severe!

2.Trying to use the Normalize function with the Tracking Generator when the 'Units' are set to anything other than dBm will not work. Normalize is grayed out. One has to remember to go back and change the setting to dBm unlike other SA's that do this automatically (Rigol for starters). Note, dBmV has been common for receive measurements for Signal Level Meters (MATV/CATV etc) for as long as I can remember.

3. Tracking Generator menu: Remove the "Normalize" soft key on the 1st page since all it is is a .next page' go to button and move the four entries on that 2nd page to page one. There will still be a vacant soft key left over. This eliminates jumping back and forth between pages something they have done well to eliminate over the Rigol menu structure.

4. No mechanical power button. I see no reason why ALL test equipment shouldn't have one. Yes, they can be connected to switched power strips, but having a true removal of power w/o physically unplugging can also be a safety factor. Keep the standby button, but I'm sure there is room on the rear panel for a rocker switch.

5. The 'standby mode' is a power hog by todays standards. Five watts running 24/7 shouldn't be acceptable anymore. That's 1/6th of the operational current (28-29 watts). I assume this has wake on LAN or similar? Fine, but does it have to be that much of a hog? How about a option to disable and 'wake' mode to get the draw down below 1 watt (EPA standard)? At least that would be a somewhat quick fix, assuming it can be done thru the firmware.

6. Need a option to blank out the ridiculously long default name/number assigned to saved screen shots. Considering that the time & date is in the instrument directory and when copied to a flash drive, there isn't any real need for it to be the file name. Deleting it one digit at a time is even more annoying.

7. Those annoying front feet that collapses ever time they are extended after one picks up the instrument by the handle when it brushes the desk or table top is really annoying. Copying a good idea is one thing, but copying a bad idea is another.

8. How about a carrying case option? One that is designed to allow actually using the SA while still in the case. Mind you, I'm not suggesting climbing a tower, utility pole or rooftop, just for remote monitoring etc where AC is available.
Title: No one has noticed this?????
Post by: videobruce on February 28, 2017, 09:19:18 pm
Apparently everyone uses auto settings for Sweep, RBW & VBW since no one here has apparently noticed this somewhat severe firmware problem as follows.  ???
This has been reported and confirmed!

To justify my reason to declare this a #1 is this; the need for speed for real time monitoring complex waveforms. Namely ATSC (8VSB) for OTA (Over The Air) broadcast TV for just one example. Many analyzers allow adjusting sweep speeds in manual mode and they stay set no matter what is done otherwise,. But once set, the setting doesn't change (and shouldn't) if it is in 'Manual' mode.

Knowing that there isn't any free ride, in this case accuracy, something usually has to suffer which is acceptable in this case since missing changes in the signal for the sake of accuracy isn't. Manual modes are provided for a purpose. They allow operator choices which they should. You don't have to use them, but they are still there. I for one prefer to take advantage of a supplied option.  ;)

Setup conditions (easy to duplicate):

1. Place the RBW, VBW & Sweep settings all in manual mode. Set the two bandwidths to a middle setting. Settings for the attenuator or units shouldn't matter. No signal is required.

2. Change the Sweep to the fastest setting (usually 24ms)

3. Set the frequency range to whatever you want, the full bandwidth is fine though I never have a need for that. My ranges are usually between 50 & 500 Mhz.

4. Go to the BW page and start changing either of the two adjustments paying attention to the sweep speed. You can use either the 'jog' dial or the up/down buttons. You will see it drop to the next slower speed.

5. Now, here where it gets more interesting, return to the previous setting. Note the sweep speed still slowing instead of returning to where it was. Everytime you make any adjustment to either the RBW or the VBW in either direction the sweep slows down to the next fixed setting forcing one to return to the sweep page and crank to back to the fastest setting allowed. Trying to get a respectable display is a real chore jumping back and forth between BW & Sweep.

This brings up a few questions;
A. Why is it changing in the first place since all settings are in or supposed to be in manual mode??
B. Why are these preset sweep speeds fixed at these 'odd' figures? Some mathematical formula and/or a limitation of the system??

With further testing I did find a couple of exceptions where the speed reversed direction, but only to a certain extent.

And no one noticed this at all??    :-//

I trust this was spelled out enough to get a handle on it. If it wasn't please ask where I lost anyone.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on February 28, 2017, 10:27:56 pm
I think you came across the same issue I mentioned vaguely here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1012414/#msg1012414 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1012414/#msg1012414)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on February 28, 2017, 11:15:24 pm
when I start to play with Frequencies, Span, Amplitude, Sweep and Trace options, after some time everything gets slow. Even if I set the parameters back to reasonable values, the refresh rate is low. If I press the PRESET button, however, things speed up again. So I tried to memorize those PRESET settings and on the next slow down entered them manually: the SA was still slow. Pressing the PRESET made it run faster again.
I would say not since you didn't make any reference to RBW & VBW, nor to it the speed constantly dropping.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on February 28, 2017, 11:32:25 pm
I have never meet this exept in situations when I have changed some parameter what affect speed. I mean example if I have adjusted VBW, after adjusting it is manually forced until I change its mode back to auto.
That referred to a one time manual change then back to auto.

Among a number of older, far more expensive SA's I either demoed or actually owned, there were many that had deal-breaking 'quirks'. The Anritsu MS2712E for example had a similar problem, about as bad and surely quirky where sweep speed was inconsistent with other settings, so was a Agilent N1996A. Sweep time would report one thing, the screen clearly showed different.  ::)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on March 01, 2017, 09:25:17 am
Hi,

have someone noticed problems within file management system,
specially, delete function looks that functioning not
completely right (and others inconsistencies with it, too)?

Regards,
Bozidar
Title: Manual Sweep, RBW & VBW interaction
Post by: videobruce on March 02, 2017, 03:37:40 pm
FYI;
Regarding the changing sweep speed interaction with RBW & VBW, I received this reply from Siglent;
.
Quote
Engineering has started work on that bug with the sweep time changing. When you set it to manual, it should stay that way.
I entered the information in our bug tracking system. Case 1327. When the case is resolved, I’ll contact you with the solution
  :-+
Title: Re: No one has noticed this?????
Post by: DL4RAJ on March 12, 2017, 07:55:38 pm
And no one noticed this at all??    :-//

I trust this was spelled out enough to get a handle on it. If it wasn't please ask where I lost anyone.

See my post from 16th Nov 2016

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1074734/#msg1074734 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1074734/#msg1074734)

"...I've noticed that the sweep time ist set to VERY long times in TG mode when one is playing with
VBW,e.g. 1Hz.When the VBW is reset to higher values,e.g. 30Hz or more,the sweep time
seems to stay at the extremely long value from before...."

Regards
DL4RAJ
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on March 13, 2017, 01:53:21 pm
Yes, I now see that mentioned, but it wasn't noticed within the entire post with other details present.
I did detail the entire situation, at least someone else noticed something wrong. I can't believe Siglent didn't.  ???
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 23, 2017, 02:23:01 am
A couple of items sourced recently:
RBSSA3X20 option that is software and the reflection bridge:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=301776)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=301778)

The Soft Carry Case for SDS1000CFL, SDS2000, SDS2000X, SDS1000X and SSA3000X.
It is quite well padded and has a good # of pockets both inside and out for cables etc.
The SSA3kX is the widest of Siglent's instruments at present and it's a comfortable fit.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=301780)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=301782)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on March 23, 2017, 05:06:53 am
It would of been much nicer if the case material was more substantial. It looks like it's very thin, no padding which surely gives pause using it for that type of equipment.

What is the US price for the bridge??
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 23, 2017, 05:54:40 am
It would of been much nicer if the case material was more substantial. It looks like it's very thin, no padding which surely gives pause using it for that type of equipment.
The material is a sleek and finely woven synthetic. Front and rear padding is in multiple layers, feels ~8mm thick for each layer and there's at least 2 layers each face. Not your usual soft foam, pretty tough stuff.
The outermost pocket (by my finger) is not padded however a large padded flap folds down over it and Velcro secures the flap shut.
All external pockets are zipped.
Bottom has rubber feet, bottom, sides and top, the padding is a single layer ~6mm thick.
The business sides of the instrument are well protected IMO.

Quote
What is the US price for the bridge??
RB3X20 RB (1 MHz~2 GHz), N (M) ?N (M) adaptor (2 pcs) list is US$ 345

(http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Picture/Product/Accessories/SSA/rbssa3x20-1.jpg)

It's included when option RBSSA3X20 (Refl?SSA3000X(SW) & RB3X20(HW) ) is purchased.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on March 23, 2017, 05:59:11 am
The price for that case is $120 US?

Is there a 3GHz version of the bridge?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 23, 2017, 06:02:25 am
The price for that case is $120 US?
US $125

Quote
Is there a 3GHz version of the bridge?

Not in my listings or on websites.....I'll ask.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Chig on March 23, 2017, 07:41:39 am
Keen to get a reflection bridge too... But i'm not paying that sort of money for it.

That said... i'm struggling to find anything else around online for a reasonable price that doesn't look like it was made in a 16 year old's electronics class...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on March 23, 2017, 07:52:02 am
Keen to get a reflection bridge too... But i'm not paying that sort of money for it.

That said... i'm struggling to find anything else around online for a reasonable price that doesn't look like it was made in a 16 year old's electronics class...
There is the advantage that there's no cables required, it adapts directly onto the TG and Sig In ports of SSA3kX models.
That's 2 cables you don't need, maybe only 1 if you can find F to F N type connectors.
Oh, and the real nice accessory pouch it all comes in.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=301778)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Chig on March 23, 2017, 08:10:17 am
Yeah, already have the gear to make up the cables anyway, but there's no doubting it's a superior solution, from a professional point of view. I'll probably be using the reflection bridge more for my hobby requirements than my professional requirements, however. When a comparable product is being sold on ebay for $10USD though... (for the cheapy reflection bridge) Hard to justify $345USD

The pouch is a bit overkill, to be honest... It'd probably live in my parts drawer when not in use anyway...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Chig on March 29, 2017, 02:59:06 am
Welp. Officially joined the Siglent club... Now just waiting on the order to arrive!

This will literally be the slowest week ever...
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Sparky on April 08, 2017, 09:16:44 pm
Since there is no activity in this thread for over a week, I guess it's the new participants are eagerly awaiting delivery of SSA3021X?  Who is latest to receive their unit, and what firmware are they shipping with now?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on April 08, 2017, 09:51:29 pm
Since there is no activity in this thread for over a week, I guess it's the new participants are eagerly awaiting delivery of SSA3021X?  Who is latest to receive their unit, and what firmware are they shipping with now?
Others may have had different but one I got a few weeks back fresh from the factory had 8.1 installed. 8.2 is the latest firmware.
I'll have some more in a few weeks and I'll report back with what they have factory installed.

I always install the latest FW before dispatching as AFAIK this has no effect on any ability to hack them, study the hacking thread carefully.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: NikWing on April 12, 2017, 05:42:06 pm
Hey all :)

I got my SSA3021X yesterday. I'm just starting to learn about SAs and everything that has to do with them, so please be patient with me and my questions :)
I've already been in an EMI/EMC lab to have some products analyzed though.

Playing around with the SSA and EasySpectrum caused some questions popping up :)
Maybe you experienced users or Siglent may have some informations about that.

So I'll just ask them here, if that's okay:

1: In the lab the guys easily found leaks using a probe connected to a (way more expensive) SA.
They turned up the volume of the built in speaker and the noise de-/increased with the amount of radiation at the probe's location.
The Siglent SSA also has an option to connect headphones. I used my Samsung Galaxy headphones and demodulated some radio stations already :)
The volume was set to "1" and my ears nearly started bleeding. So either it's an output to connect a speaker or the pre-amp inside the SSA is not yet adjusted right.
Is there any way to ask Siglent for a better handling of the volume?
Is there any way to listen to (probably transposed) signals that are going into the SSA?
IMO (if it doesn't exist already) it would be great to make the SSA play some kind of audio signal (like 500 Hz sine or whatever) and make its volume de-/increase with the signal strength? With an amp connected to the SSA this would be helpful for leak hunting.

2: EasySpectrum is quite nice. Being able to set EMI limits and start (automatic) measurements.
It would be nice if there was an option to set the window size according to the PC's screen size/resolution. That way viewing the charts would be a lot better/nicer.

3: I've also bought the beehive 101A probe kit. There's a datasheet with formulas to calculate their output power if I'm not wrong. Stupid question, but is there a way to tell the SA what kind of probes are connected or to enter some correction data about the connected probe?
A DSO can be told what probe (1:10, 1:100 etc) is connected so it shows the correct values.
Beside cable attenuation etc, how do I know what power levels I really measure?

4: Some keypress beep feedback would also be great, maybe Siglent could add an option in the system settings ...

5: I set the SSA to show some peaks in the noise (for example: radio stations). Using the peak list I only saw one of them listed and I had a hard time to jump to the next peak that was clearly visible on screen. I used the rot-enc wheel to get to the desired/next/previous peak but that was quite uncomfortable.
Is there any easier way to jump to peaks while the measurement is not stopped (trace set to view)?

7: pushing peak button, stopping the measurement (trace -> view) and going back to peaks shows a list of them.
"Marker" is set to "normal". The button "next peak" does nothing here. "left" and "right" jump to the expected peaks. But pushing the "peak peak" button sets marker from "normal" to "delta pair" making a "1r" appear on screen on the lowest falling edge peak.
Is that to be expected?

6: How can I scroll or "scan" through the frequency band? Either there's a bug or I misunderstood something.
For example: start freq: 2.7 GHz, stop freq: 2.8 GHz, resulting span is 100 MHz
Selecting center freq (which results in 2.75 GHz), with a freq step of 10 MHz and turning the rot-enc wheel, shouldn't the next step be at 2.76 GHz? Here it jumps to 2.7505 GHz, doing 500 kHz steps ...

Thanks for any advice, hints and stuff like that :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on April 14, 2017, 02:31:25 pm
Quote
The Siglent SSA also has an option to connect headphones. I used my Samsung Galaxy headphones and demodulated some radio stations already
The volume was set to "1" and my ears nearly started bleeding. So either it's an output to connect a speaker or the pre-amp inside the SSA is not yet adjusted right.
1. That was brought out in a very good review on YouTube. The guy did connect a small speaker by itself and it worked.
Quote
5. Is there any easier way to jump to peaks while the measurement is not stopped (trace set to view)?
Turn 'Cont Peak' on & and choose 'Peak Peak'.
Quote
Selecting center freq (which results in 2.75 GHz), with a freq step of 10 MHz and turning the rot-enc wheel, shouldn't the next step be at 2.76 GHz? Here it jumps to 2.7505 GHz, doing 500 kHz steps ...
It is here. You must be doing something wrong somewhere.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: NikWing on April 17, 2017, 10:53:56 am
Jie from Siglent wrote me a message, they will try to see if changing it to logarithmic volume increase makes it better.

5: the problems I had mainly came from wrong peak detector settings. of course it's hard to jump to peaks that are jumping around ^^;

but I already tried your suggestion using the "peak peak" button. in 7 in wrote that this enables delta pair mode here and the 1r marker appears ...

and Jie told me: When using the wheel, the frequency steps is 1/200 of span. When using the Arrow which under the wheel, the frequency steps will be the manual setup.

I've spent the past days watching a lot of videos about spectrum analyzers and read many how-tos, too - and already gained some more knowledge :)
Though there are questions left about measuring and EMI debugging. I've also seen the 5µH LISN thread(s) etc. I guess I'll open a new thread and ask things there. Which part of the forum would be the right place to do so?
Test Equipment, Other Equipment, Projects/Designs or Beginners?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on April 17, 2017, 11:15:29 am
@ NikWing
There are many examples of advanced usage in rf-loop's posts throughout this thread. Many features of this instrument are tucked away within the UI and it takes some little time to know where each is and become familiar with their correct usage.
Spend some time to become competent with basic settings to get the displayed results you seek and then start to apply the measurement features. I like you had to learn to use this instrument but I had zero previous experience with SA's. There are some pdf's offered in this thread and there is some good reading in them.

One thing at a time, just like walking, start with small steps before being able to run.  ;)

As each and every SA is different IMO discussion of correct SSA3000X operation is best kept here so that other and future owners can benefit from combined experience. As the screenshots are small and easy to add to a post please do show them as we can see much information from the UI to offer advice.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on April 30, 2017, 01:35:23 am
Hi,

I've had my SSA3021x for a couples weeks now and just got around to trying it out for one of my intended purposes. One of my my uses is to work on my vintage RC equipment. I had been using my HP 8920B but for some uses I needed more than 1GHz and also more complete SA features. Anyway,

I'm looking at the RF output of one of my AM TXs. I use the AM demodulator and hook the audio output to my scope to see the serial PPM signal.
The main thing I noticed is that the SA can't seem to sweep the display and demodulate at the same time. I either need to use zero span or set a long demodulate time.
If I set the time to say 10 seconds, I see my PPM stream on the scope with a hickup every 10 seconds while the SA sweeps. So I figure the demodulate time is really time between sweeps ( not the same as sweep time ). My 8920B doesn't have this issue.

It's not a big deal but just curious if anyone else using this SA to demodulate signals has noticed the same thing?

Same thing when just listening to FM broadcast, either need to use zero span or set a long demodulate time ( each new sweep cuts the audio ).

Another thing I notice is that the SA does not remember that last setting I used. Haven't gone through the manual completely yet, so maybe just on option to set.

So far, please with the SA.

Joel
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on April 30, 2017, 10:11:46 am
This is how it works. For continuous listening; Zero Span.  How sweeping SA can work different if it have only one "receiver". Try same with radio, tune freq continuously and try listen.  This Agilent old AN-150 is very mandatory to read and understand for every peoples who use SA. It also explain well how also Siglent SSA works.

About other question.
Go to System menu, open there "Power On/Preset"  menu. There you have  options for power on: Default, Last, User defined. 

Also you can configure "Preset" button for Default, Last, User.
There is selection "User Config".  Do first SA setup what you want, after then go to this menu and save this setup. It is now as "User defined" what you can also assign for blue "Preset" button if need.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on April 30, 2017, 02:47:15 pm
I'll have to double check my 8920B, I don't recall it having any skips, but maybe.
I figured I could set the default startup behavior, just haven't gone through the manual well yet. I've been pretty much just been pushing buttons and playing.

Thanks for the tips.

Joel
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on May 01, 2017, 06:24:24 am
I'll have to double check my 8920B, I don't recall it having any skips, but maybe.
I figured I could set the default startup behavior, just haven't gone through the manual well yet. I've been pretty much just been pushing buttons and playing.

Thanks for the tips.

Joel

If you compare 8920B RF Communications Test Set and normal Spectrum analyzer it need note that they are extremely different machines. Yes it have also spectrum function but...  example 8922 can listen AND sweep SA at same time, 8920B I do not have any own experience. (least these units (GSM  test set's) what I have owned and used.)  These machines  are very different, and if look these units (new) prices and example Siglent SA (new) price.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nowlan on May 01, 2017, 01:41:04 pm
Bit late to the party, but saw AfroTechMods video last night.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA4SvTBCAXU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA4SvTBCAXU)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on May 02, 2017, 12:32:44 am
You are right. The 8920B is very versatile and a different instrument all together. It does what it was made for very well. Its SA and scope functions were limited but useful. When I bought it, I was actually looking for an SA. At the time I couldn't touch a real SA for what I got the 8920B for. I made do with the 8920B and it has served my limited use of it well.

Now with the SSA3021x I am very pleased. The sweep and audio point is not really an issue and I don't think I would ever need to do both at one time. It was just something I noticed while getting familiar with it.

Thanks for the insights

Joel

I'll have to double check my 8920B, I don't recall it having any skips, but maybe.
I figured I could set the default startup behavior, just haven't gone through the manual well yet. I've been pretty much just been pushing buttons and playing.

Thanks for the tips.

Joel

If you compare 8920B RF Communications Test Set and normal Spectrum analyzer it need note that they are extremely different machines. Yes it have also spectrum function but...  example 8922 can listen AND sweep SA at same time, 8920B I do not have any own experience. (least these units (GSM  test set's) what I have owned and used.)  These machines  are very different, and if look these units (new) prices and example Siglent SA (new) price.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on June 27, 2017, 04:15:11 am
New FW for SSA3kX models:

Version V1.2.8.3
http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=6381&tid=15 (http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=6381&tid=15)
7.2 Mb

Changelog:
1.This firmware update will only work with instruments that have installed FW version
V1.2.8.1 or later. If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please first update to V1.2.8.1
and then proceed to update to the latest version.
2. Improves the stability of sweep and avg detect.
3. Fixes existing bugs on sweep, frequency counter and Log-Log scale.
4. Fixes existing bugs on SCPI and the AMK option.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dpenev on June 27, 2017, 06:06:21 am
Hi rf-loot,

Thank you for the measurements.
I have double check and clearly see the issue.
See attached.
Yellow measurement is for the span 0 - 50MHz
Pink trace is for the span 0 - 10MHz

In your case you have not checked the 50MHz range.
Can you set wide band white noise at the analyzer input (the signal level you have used I think should be OK)
Measure with the same settings you already used from 0 - 10MHz and then 0 -  50 MHz.

Thanks
Dimitar

I confirm that the new firmware version 1.2.8.3 seems fixes this bug.

Dimitar
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on June 27, 2017, 11:11:17 am
Wow, that was overdue, I was wondering if that was as far as they were going.   :o
Between the issues listed below (other then physical changes), which were addressed??


Many of these have already been reported I'm told by Siglent, but since I already composed a list of needed 'changes' I'll post them here for convenience. Note " 1" is skipped since it requires a separate entry due to it being what I consider fairly severe!

2.Trying to use the Normalize function with the Tracking Generator when the 'Units' are set to anything other than dBm will not work. Normalize is grayed out. One has to remember to go back and change the setting to dBm unlike other SA's that do this automatically (Rigol for starters). Note, dBmV has been common for receive measurements for Signal Level Meters (MATV/CATV etc) for as long as I can remember.

3. Tracking Generator menu: Remove the "Normalize" soft key on the 1st page since all it is is a .next page' go to button and move the four entries on that 2nd page to page one. There will still be a vacant soft key left over. This eliminates jumping back and forth between pages something they have done well to eliminate over the Rigol menu structure.

4. No mechanical power button. I see no reason why ALL test equipment shouldn't have one. Yes, they can be connected to switched power strips, but having a true removal of power w/o physically unplugging can also be a safety factor. Keep the standby button, but I'm sure there is room on the rear panel for a rocker switch.

5. The 'standby mode' is a power hog by todays standards. Five watts running 24/7 shouldn't be acceptable anymore. That's 1/6th of the operational current (28-29 watts). I assume this has wake on LAN or similar? Fine, but does it have to be that much of a hog? How about a option to disable and 'wake' mode to get the draw down below 1 watt (EPA standard)? At least that would be a somewhat quick fix, assuming it can be done thru the firmware.

6. Need a option to blank out the ridiculously long default name/number assigned to saved screen shots. Considering that the time & date is in the instrument directory and when copied to a flash drive, there isn't any real need for it to be the file name. Deleting it one digit at a time is even more annoying.

7. Those annoying front feet that collapses ever time they are extended after one picks up the instrument by the handle when it brushes the desk or table top is really annoying. Copying a good idea is one thing, but copying a bad idea is another.

8. How about a carrying case option? One that is designed to allow actually using the SA while still in the case. Mind you, I'm not suggesting climbing a tower, utility pole or rooftop, just for remote monitoring etc where AC is available.
Apparently everyone uses auto settings for Sweep, RBW & VBW since no one here has apparently noticed this somewhat severe firmware problem as follows.  ???
This has been reported and confirmed!

To justify my reason to declare this a #1 is this; the need for speed for real time monitoring complex waveforms. Namely ATSC (8VSB) for OTA (Over The Air) broadcast TV for just one example. Many analyzers allow adjusting sweep speeds in manual mode and they stay set no matter what is done otherwise,. But once set, the setting doesn't change (and shouldn't) if it is in 'Manual' mode.

Knowing that there isn't any free ride, in this case accuracy, something usually has to suffer which is acceptable in this case since missing changes in the signal for the sake of accuracy isn't. Manual modes are provided for a purpose. They allow operator choices which they should. You don't have to use them, but they are still there. I for one prefer to take advantage of a supplied option.  ;)

Setup conditions (easy to duplicate):

1. Place the RBW, VBW & Sweep settings all in manual mode. Set the two bandwidths to a middle setting. Settings for the attenuator or units shouldn't matter. No signal is required.

2. Change the Sweep to the fastest setting (usually 24ms)

3. Set the frequency range to whatever you want, the full bandwidth is fine though I never have a need for that. My ranges are usually between 50 & 500 Mhz.

4. Go to the BW page and start changing either of the two adjustments paying attention to the sweep speed. You can use either the 'jog' dial or the up/down buttons. You will see it drop to the next slower speed.

5. Now, here where it gets more interesting, return to the previous setting. Note the sweep speed still slowing instead of returning to where it was. Everytime you make any adjustment to either the RBW or the VBW in either direction the sweep slows down to the next fixed setting forcing one to return to the sweep page and crank to back to the fastest setting allowed. Trying to get a respectable display is a real chore jumping back and forth between BW & Sweep.

This brings up a few questions;
A. Why is it changing in the first place since all settings are in or supposed to be in manual mode??
B. Why are these preset sweep speeds fixed at these 'odd' figures? Some mathematical formula and/or a limitation of the system??

With further testing I did find a couple of exceptions where the speed reversed direction, but only to a certain extent.

And no one noticed this at all??    :-//

I trust this was spelled out enough to get a handle on it. If it wasn't please ask where I lost anyone.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on July 06, 2017, 11:50:02 pm
Regarding the tracking generator: can someone verify that with a different spectrum analyser? It looks so bad that it must be a measurement error!

It's still within specs ;-)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211927;image)

Also Rigol's TG is not that brilliant ...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211929;image)

I wonder about the performance of incoming SSA3000X improved version.

My Rigol 815 TG output set at 0dbm going straight into my ol HP-8591E. 2nd pic is same setup but with 10db pad on output and 10db pad on input. HP set at 1db/div.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on July 07, 2017, 12:02:02 am
Regarding the tracking generator: can someone verify that with a different spectrum analyser? It looks so bad that it must be a measurement error!

It's still within specs ;-)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211927;image)

Also Rigol's TG is not that brilliant ...

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=211929;image)

I wonder about the performance of incoming SSA3000X improved version.

My 815-TG set at 0dbm with 10db pad on output and 10db pad on input of my ol HP-8591E. 2nd pic is without any attenuators.
Center of the HP is 0dbm at 1db/div

73 N8AUM  Vidas



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on July 21, 2017, 04:50:24 pm
Other then the 'fix' (removal) for the unnecessary 2nd page for the TG function and fixing the ability to use the TG even if the amplitude units are set to dBmv, has anyone found any changes with the 8.3 F/W??   ???

To update the 'quirks/issues (added lack of working file delete);

1. Sweep speeds keep decreasing ever time one adjust the RBW and/or VBW either way. This has been reported and confirmed. Setup conditions (easy to duplicate):
..A. Place the RBW, VBW & Sweep settings all in manual mode. Set the two bandwidths to a middle setting. Settings for the attenuator or units shouldn't matter. No signal is required.
..B. Change the Sweep to the fastest setting (usually 24ms)
..C. Set the frequency range to whatever you want, the full bandwidth is fine though I never have a need for that. My ranges are usually between 50 & 500 Mhz.
..D. Go to the BW page and start changing either of the two adjustments paying attention to the sweep speed[/b]. You can use either the 'jog' dial or the up/down buttons. You will see it drop to the next slower speed.
..E. Return to the previous setting. Note the sweep speed still slowing instead of returning to where it was. Everytime you make any adjustment to either the RBW or the VBW in either direction the sweep slows down to the next fixed setting forcing one to return to the sweep page and readjust the setting.. Trying to get a respectable display is a real chore jumping back and forth between BW & Sweep.

2. No mechanical power button. I see no reason why ALL test equipment shouldn't have one. Yes, they can be connected to switched power strips, but having a true removal of power w/o physically unplugging can also be a safety factor. Keep the standby button, but I'm sure there is room on the rear panel for a rocker switch.
3. The 'standby mode' is a power hog by todays standards. Five watts running 24/7 shouldn't be acceptable anymore. That's 1/6th of the operational current (28-29 watts). I assume this has wake on LAN or similar? Fine, but does it have to be that much of a hog? How about a option to disable and 'wake' mode to get the draw down below 1 watt (EPA standard)? At least that would be a somewhat quick fix, assuming it can be done thru the firmware.
4. Option to blank out the ridiculously long default name/number assigned to saved screen shots. Considering that the time & date is in the instrument directory and when copied to a flash drive, there isn't any real need for it to be the file name. Deleting it one digit at a time is even more annoying.
5. Unable to delete files even thou the function button is there.
6.  Annoying front feet that collapse ever time they are extended after one picks up the instrument by the handle when it brushes the desk or table top. Copying a good idea is one thing, but copying a bad idea is another (Rigol).
7. Carrying case option that allows actually using the SA while still in the case. For everyday use away from the bench.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on July 23, 2017, 05:46:33 am
Difference between Rigol and Siglent TG output scan between 0 and 1.5GHz scan. Both SA's had a 10db attenuator on input and TG output. Notice the sudden 1db drop at 600MHz on Siglent.  looks like crap compared to Rigol but still within spec. I remember Rigol had something similar way back when but they came out with a firmware fix. Thank GOD for normalization LOL !
Sorry, I forgot to mention that i used the Rigol to measure the Siglent and the Siglent to measure the Rigol.
 
73 N8AUM  Vidas

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 23, 2017, 06:25:03 am
Difference between Rigol and Siglent TG output scan between 0 and 1.5GHz scan. Both SA's had a 10db attenuator on input and TG output. Notice the sudden 1db drop at 600MHz on Siglent.  looks like crap compared to Rigol but still within spec. I remember Rigol had something similar way back when but they came out with a firmware fix. Thank GOD for normalization LOL ! 
 
73 N8AUM  Vidas



Are you sure you got those around the right way? The Siglent looks much flatter than the Rigol to me.

Edit: Or did I miss something - perhaps you used the Siglent to measure the Rigol and vice versa?

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on July 23, 2017, 06:42:09 am
Difference between Rigol and Siglent TG output scan between 0 and 1.5GHz scan. Both SA's had a 10db attenuator on input and TG output. Notice the sudden 1db drop at 600MHz on Siglent.  looks like crap compared to Rigol but still within spec. I remember Rigol had something similar way back when but they came out with a firmware fix. Thank GOD for normalization LOL ! 
 
73 N8AUM  Vidas



Are you sure you got those around the right way? The Siglent looks much flatter than the Rigol to me.

Edit: Or did I miss something - perhaps you used the Siglent to measure the Rigol and vice versa?

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I used the Rigol to measure the Siglent and the Siglent to measure the Rigol. My HP took a dump otherwise I would have used it to compare, sorry 4 the confusion ! :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on July 23, 2017, 07:42:14 am
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I used the Rigol to measure the Siglent and the Siglent to measure the Rigol. My HP took a dump otherwise I would have used it to compare, sorry 4 the confusion ! :palm:
Confusion reigns if you don't bother to mention the firmware version for each model.  :scared:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on July 23, 2017, 07:57:54 am
Difference between Rigol and Siglent TG output scan between 0 and 1.5GHz scan. Both SA's had a 10db attenuator on input and TG output. Notice the sudden 1db drop at 600MHz on Siglent.  looks like crap compared to Rigol but still within spec. I remember Rigol had something similar way back when but they came out with a firmware fix. Thank GOD for normalization LOL ! 
 
73 N8AUM  Vidas



Are you sure you got those around the right way? The Siglent looks much flatter than the Rigol to me.

Edit: Or did I miss something - perhaps you used the Siglent to measure the Rigol and vice versa?

Sorry, I forgot to mention that I used the Rigol to measure the Siglent and the Siglent to measure the Rigol. My HP took a dump otherwise I would have used it to compare, sorry 4 the confusion ! :palm:


You need to check in at the TEA thread  >:D
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on July 23, 2017, 12:50:10 pm
Sorry, I forgot to mention that I used the Rigol to measure the Siglent and the Siglent to measure the Rigol. My HP took a dump otherwise I would have used it to compare, sorry 4 the confusion ! :palm:
Confusion reigns if you don't bother to mention the firmware version for each model.  :scared:

Firmware: Rigol 01.17, Siglent 1.2.8.3







Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 23, 2017, 01:59:39 pm
This is how it looks on a R&S CRTU (100kHz - 2.7GHz).

Note that the TG is normally NORMALIZED: you measure the TG signal over the desired frequency range by connecting TG OUTPUT to RF INPUT.
THEN you connect the DUT and the measurement will show the results with a CALIBRATED TG SIGNAL.

The deviation is not that important and even my better signal noise source has a higher deviation over such a large frequency range.

The attached image shows the MAXIMUM signal power and took around 5 minutes to generate. The reason is obviously the non-syncronized TG output sweep vs the spectrum input sweep. This accounts for a significant error, as you may see values that were captured under the required time, because the TG moved to the next frequency, before the measurement was complete. The longer you let this setup run, the smoother and flatter the curve will get.

In my opinion this is not a good way to actually evaluate a TG of an SSA.

It would be better to compare actual DUT measurements between different devices: if you have a Rigol and a Siglent, measure the same DUT (i.e. filter or attenuator) and compare results.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on July 23, 2017, 02:58:09 pm
You need to check in at the TEA thread  >:D

"TEA" thread??  ???
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 23, 2017, 03:16:03 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/)

TEA = Test Equipment Anonymous

The thread "helps" Test Equipment Addicted to deal with their addiction of purchasing test equipment, they don't really need.

This can go from mild disorder like myself (owning i.e. two spectrum analyzer, two oscilloscopes and >20 TV field meter, amogst an assortment of all sorts of test equipment, signal sources, antennas, etc.) to some serious disorders where people hord test equipment which in the end doesn't fit inside the house anymore.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on July 23, 2017, 03:24:12 pm
Folks,

what are you doing or discussing here doesn't make any sense.
A tracking generator is called tracking generator because it TRACKS the SA's sweeping frequency.
So if you feed the TG from e.g. a Siglent into any other SA,no matter if Rigol, HP or whatever,
it cannot track the SA's sweep because it is not locked to the SA's LO(s).
So it's just random results what you are seeing.When at a certain point of time the SA's tracking filter is on another frequency than the TG the input impedance of the SA as seen by the TG is high and reactive.
That's why you can reduce the amplitude variations by putting in some attenuation.
For further in depth information I recommend reading
" Spectrum Analysis Basics" - Application Note 150 by keysight/HP.

73
Clemens
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 23, 2017, 03:27:41 pm
Folks,

what are you doing or discussing here doesn't make any sense.
A tracking generator is called tracking generator because it TRACKS the SA's sweeping frequency.
So if you feed the TG from e.g. a Siglent into any other SA,no matter if Rigol, HP or whatever,
it cannot track the SA's sweep because it is not locked to the SA's LO(s).
So it's just random results what you are seeing.When at a certain point of time the SA's tracking filter is on another frequency than the TG the input impedance of the SA as seen by the TG is high and reactive.
That's why you can reduce the amplitude variations by putting in some attenuation.
For further in depth information I recommend reading
" Spectrum Analysis Basics" - Application Note 150 by keysight/HP.

73
Clemens

Dito (two or three posts above):

Quote
"The attached image shows the MAXIMUM signal power and took around 5 minutes to generate. The reason is obviously the non-syncronized TG output sweep vs the spectrum input sweep. This accounts for a significant error, as you may see values that were captured under the required time, because the TG moved to the next frequency, before the measurement was complete. The longer you let this setup run, the smoother and flatter the curve will get.

In my opinion this is not a good way to actually evaluate a TG of an SSA."

Thanks for your confirmation, though!

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on July 23, 2017, 03:29:41 pm
Bicurico; sorry I asked.  :palm:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on July 23, 2017, 03:33:44 pm
Hi Vitor,

sorry for having overlooked your post in this long thread.

Clemens
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on July 23, 2017, 03:35:15 pm
No problem. Apologies if I sounded arrogant, that was not my intention.

Cheers,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DL4RAJ on July 23, 2017, 03:37:01 pm
Don't worry,you did not sound arrogant at all.

C.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on July 23, 2017, 08:22:07 pm
Folks,

what are you doing or discussing here doesn't make any sense.
A tracking generator is called tracking generator because it TRACKS the SA's sweeping frequency.
So if you feed the TG from e.g. a Siglent into any other SA,no matter if Rigol, HP or whatever,
it cannot track the SA's sweep because it is not locked to the SA's LO(s).
So it's just random results what you are seeing.When at a certain point of time the SA's tracking filter is on another frequency than the TG the input impedance of the SA as seen by the TG is high and reactive.
That's why you can reduce the amplitude variations by putting in some attenuation.
For further in depth information I recommend reading
" Spectrum Analysis Basics" - Application Note 150 by keysight/HP.

73
Clemens

Altho not perfect but using couple 10db attenuators will give you a ROUGH idea on what the TG output looks like.   
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tefe on July 24, 2017, 04:46:02 am
Difference between Rigol and Siglent TG output scan between 0 and 1.5GHz scan. Both SA's had a 10db attenuator on input and TG output. Notice the sudden 1db drop at 600MHz on Siglent.  looks like crap compared to Rigol but still within spec. I remember Rigol had something similar way back when but they came out with a firmware fix. Thank GOD for normalization LOL !
Sorry, I forgot to mention that i used the Rigol to measure the Siglent and the Siglent to measure the Rigol.
 
73 N8AUM  Vidas

I think we'd better compare between 3.2G model ---- DSA832 and SSA3032X. Does anyone has DSA832-TG?
I once designed a 1G and 3G Hz source, and I had to tradeoff many on 3G model. If I only designed a 1G source, many would be better.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 02, 2017, 09:09:36 am
Owners are asked to give advice:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/easyspectrum-for-ssa3000x-is-it-useful/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/easyspectrum-for-ssa3000x-is-it-useful/)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on August 03, 2017, 04:00:35 pm
SSA3032X TG output shut off after being on several hrs even tho it says its on. Turned off TG than on again but still no output. Reset (Preset) no help, had to power cycle unit in order to get TG to work again.

SSA3032X Firmware ver 1.2.8.3
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on August 04, 2017, 02:50:30 pm
SSA3032X TG output shut off after being on several hrs even tho it says its on. Turned off TG than on again but still no output. Reset (Preset) no help, had to power cycle unit in order to get TG to work again.

SSA3032X Firmware ver 1.2.8.3

Hi N8AUM
We tried leaving the TG running into a filter overnight and never had a problem.
Please contact us at
info@siglent.com
if you are still having a problem.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: DaYooper on August 08, 2017, 03:36:12 am
I received an SSA3021X today but only had a few minutes to play with it before work intervened.  It's my first SA so I'm quite impressed.

I have a quick question about packaging.  Mine came with no peel off screen protector and a few small scratches on the bottom of the unit.  Every photo I've seen online of a new unit shows the peel off film in place.  Should I be concerned that I received a "used" model or do all the latest ones come w/o the film.  It has an April cal date and came with 8.2 FW  For $1500 I was expecting to get to peel film off something.    :'(

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 08, 2017, 03:50:37 am
Most Siglent product that I have received lately has been minus peel off screen protectors.
I think they have phased them out. I still have the peel off on my older 3032X demo unit but IIRC the 3.2 GHz unit I sold a week or two back came without one. It also had 8.3 installed straight from the factory.

Never seen a mark on a unit, maybe it's been demo'ed in the shop.  :-//
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on August 08, 2017, 10:39:59 am
I received an SSA3021X today but only had a few minutes to play with it before work intervened.  It's my first SA so I'm quite impressed.

I have a quick question about packaging.  Mine came with no peel off screen protector and a few small scratches on the bottom of the unit.  Every photo I've seen online of a new unit shows the peel off film in place.  Should I be concerned that I received a "used" model or do all the latest ones come w/o the film.  It has an April cal date and came with 8.2 FW  For $1500 I was expecting to get to peel film off something.    :'(

Front of TFT is pure glass. In normal handling it do not need any surface protection plastic.
Also nearly all other Siglent products have pure glass front of TFT.   Very different think if compare example usual TV set or monitor surfaces what really need handle with care.  If you solder and in your room is "flying hot tin" and it hit your Spectrum TFT nothing happen. YOu can take normal soft steel tool and knock and scratch this glass. If force is not enormous nothing happen.

Last set of SDS1202X-E, no TFT protective film.
My SSA is early version and when it arrive there was this film, it is even now there. But it really do not need it.

These can remove and leave off. It save work in factory. Some one may think this is small work. Yes it is, but whole process is not. And when there is one, two, tree...ten...hundred small things...  when pruct can total cost hundred dollar in carton it is easy to eat with some small things...,  You need keep them in manufacturing line, they need keep clean, they need quite carefully install or it looks really terrible... before install, surface need clean, if there is one tiny dust particle it looks terrible. So it is better there is not at all this.

But then, scratches in bottom. I can easy believe they may come in chinese handling. Perhaps before assembly,  product assembly line, calibration procedure, pre ageing process,,etc.  Theu have clearly developed this handling better but still, it can do better.
It do not work until every single human who are inside factory building is totally and fully motivated about every corner in quality thinking. It need import to every single worker head, from factory floor cleaner to CEO.  Every one need think, this is our product and we all are responsible about all what include term quality. Everyone need think that just he/she is personally responsible, not only neighbourg or boss or big boss. As long as they feel they do just hard boring work, what ever work just only for money and just only what boss ask and command and own thinking is minimal. As long as this do not change company stay B level in quality.
Who can import this to manufacturers floor. What kind of intervention it need.
Siglent situation in this HW quality thinking is not at all bad. But still, some these minor things need do better. There must NOT be clearly visible scratches etc, not in any side of unit. This kind of sub group in quality things whole group is small but, when equipment arrive to customer hand first 30 seconds are critical when he develop in his brain some imagine about quality. THis is psychology. Look some japanese companies how they manipulate peoples mind so that first feel is positive and after people is fixed to believe qualti... it do not so easy drop. 

Quality "feel" in these some cosmetical things do not cost nearly anything when it is done clever way inside house. It need motivation and it need knowledge and it may need some factory internal teached courses for quality thinking. It also needs to build an ethically and morally sustainable "bamboo fly and carrot" system. A reward is needed, but punishment is also needed. And what is important - responsibility so that "you and no one else" is responsible.



People buy new, he perhaps use all his free money for new equipment, some people may save money long time for get what he have thinking long time. It is very important he also get feel that he have really new machine what also looks and feels new. 



Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on August 09, 2017, 02:43:06 am
Most Siglent product that I have received lately has been minus peel off screen protectors.

I've been intercepting your mail Tautech!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 09, 2017, 07:14:48 am
Most Siglent product that I have received lately has been minus peel off screen protectors.

I've been intercepting your mail Tautech!
:-DD
So you're the reason there's no screen protectors.
Last time you visited you ripped the one off my Fluke DMM......it hasn't felt the same since.  :P
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on August 09, 2017, 08:30:39 am
Tearing off an old manky screen protector is the best feeling in the world!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on August 14, 2017, 08:09:03 am
Dropping this link to a thread from The Signal Path review:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3032x-9khz-3-2ghz-spectrum-analyzer-review-teardown-experiments/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3032x-9khz-3-2ghz-spectrum-analyzer-review-teardown-experiments/)

@rf-loop, might you like to add it to the OP ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 13, 2017, 09:32:32 am
New FW for SSA3000X

Version:
V1.2.8.5
2017/9/10

1. This firmware must be upgraded from V1.2.8.1 or later.
If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please update to V1.2.8.1 first and then proceed to update to the latest version.

2. Add 1 Hz/3 Hz RBW function.
3. Fixed some bugs on SCPI.
4. Fixed some bugs on sweep, Log scale, and display.


Then:

SSA3032X price reduced.

Then also:

Limited time offer for SSA3000X new SSA's: Tracking Generator option free.
Note:
- All the SSA3000X series spectrum analyzers must be newly purchased from an authorized SIGLENT distributor .
- The TG option is a limited time offer!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 13, 2017, 10:23:55 am
Telnet access is still possible after firmware upgrade.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 13, 2017, 10:25:49 am
I can only go with RBW as low as 10Hz.

Am I doing something wrong?

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on September 13, 2017, 12:48:20 pm
Here is a link to the new firmware which will give you the 1 Hz and 3 Hz RBW settings:

http://siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5113&tid=227&T=2 (http://siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5113&tid=227&T=2)

Note: The newer higher resolution settings do not actually provide a lower DANL. Your noise level should remain the same as when you use a 10 Hz setting. Also, if there is no signal being inputted into the SA, the baseline will appear flat.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 13, 2017, 12:51:04 pm
I already installed it successfully, but only get down to 10Hz (for that I have to use a small span, i.e. 1MHz or less).
What do I have to do get 1Hz? I already tried setting a 1KHz span, but no success.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on September 13, 2017, 01:51:06 pm
Please stand by on this.
Our beta version here in Ohio worked fine last week, it was released today but when we installed the new released version we are also having trouble.

We will post an update - hopefully tomorrow.
Thanks
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 13, 2017, 01:56:16 pm
No sweat! I was just trying and thought I had forgotten some setting.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on September 13, 2017, 02:33:45 pm
Has any of these been addressed??

1. Changing RBW and/or VBW settings (in manual mode) changes sweep speeds. Everytime one adjusts either setting the sweep speed slows down one step. This continues to happen even if you return the setting to where it was. The sweep speed keeps slowing. I never encountered this before and it is REAL annoying. (see below)
5. The 'standby mode' is a power hog by todays standards. Five watts running 24/7 shouldn't be acceptable anymore. That's 1/6th of the operational current (28-29 watts). I assume this has wake on LAN or similar? Fine, but does it have to be that much of a hog? How about a option to disable and 'wake' mode to get the draw down below 1 watt (EPA standard)? At least that would be a somewhat quick fix, assuming it can be done thru the firmware.
6. A option to blank out the ridiculously long default name/number assigned to saved screen shots. Considering that the time & date is in the instrument directory and when copied to a flash drive, there isn't any real need for it to be the file name. Deleting it one digit at a time is even more annoying.

Setup conditions for #1 (easy to duplicate):
1. Place the RBW, VBW & Sweep settings all in manual mode. Set the two bandwidths to a middle setting. Settings for the attenuator or units shouldn't matter. No signal is required.
2. Change the Sweep to the fastest setting (usually 24ms)
3. Set the frequency range to whatever you want[/b], the full bandwidth is fine though I never have a need for that. My ranges are usually between 50 & 500 Mhz.
4. Go to the BW page and start changing either of the two adjustments paying attention to the sweep speed. You can use either the 'jog' dial or the up/down buttons. You will see it drop to the next slower speed.
5. Now, here where it gets more interesting, return to the previous setting. Note the sweep speed still slowing instead of returning to where it was.Everytime you make any adjustment to either the RBW or the VBW in either direction the sweep slows down to the next fixed setting forcing one to return to the sweep page and crank to back to the fastest setting allowed. Trying to get a respectable display is a real chore jumping back and forth between BW & Sweep.

With further testing I did find a couple of exceptions where the speed reversed direction, but only to a certain extent.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 13, 2017, 04:55:03 pm
Problems within file management system - Unable to delete files even thou the function button is there!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on September 14, 2017, 03:18:15 pm
New firmware seems to be working ok so far on my 3032X
I hope it also fixes my TG from randomly turning off and wont turn on without a hard reset.
heres screenshot of my old HP-8656B set at 1MHz at -100dbm.
73  N8AUM


 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Siglent America on September 14, 2017, 04:45:20 pm
Please stand by on this.
Our beta version here in Ohio worked fine last week, it was released today but when we installed the new released version we are also having trouble.

We will post an update - hopefully tomorrow.
Thanks



OK - Problem solved!
Someone on our end accidentally posted the incorrect file.

Now, if you download the new rar file (V1.2.8.5-EN.rar) from the Siglent website the upgrade (ADS) file will be named
V1.2.8.5.ADS
We tested it here in Ohio and it works as it should.

However, if you had already downloaded the previous version of the ADS file and the 1 Hz and 3 Hz RBW values are not accessible, please download the new ADS version as above.  Your instrument may now boot up in Chinese. If so, simply go to the SYSTEM button and select LANGUAGE (first selection) from the menu. Then choose English, or whatever you want, EVEN if it is already selected. You should be up and running correctly now.

If you have any problems then you can contact us at
info@Siglent.com

We apologize for the error.
Siglent America
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 14, 2017, 04:47:54 pm
No sweat!

Just tested it - it now works as it should.

Also, I confirm that my SSA3021X had Chinese active after the upgrade. However, thumbs up for the developers, as the SYSTEM -> LANGUAGE menu is always in English!

 :-+

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on September 14, 2017, 09:59:42 pm
I notice something odd not sure if it existed before 8.5.

When I first turn on the SA and set say freq to 100MHz and span to 1 MHz, I cannot set a RBW below 10Hz.
If I then set freq to 50KHz and span to 10KHz, I can set RBW below 10Hz
If I now go back to freq 100MHz and span 1MHz I can set RBW below 10Hz

I have to redo the low freq steps again if I power cycle the SA.

edit: I set the SA above 1GHz and lost the RBW less than 10Hz, probably not a surprise, but when I went back to 100MHz and span 1MHz, I again could not set RBW less than 10Hz.

Is there a max frequency and span for this to work?

edit 2: playing some more I find the limits, basically span is the limiter before hitting a sweep time error. Higher center frequency, smaller span. I think this is good and normal.  There does still seem to be some oddness if I set an allowable 1Hz RBW setting, it seems to let me set some frequency and spans that wouldn't otherwise work.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 15, 2017, 06:13:22 am
I notice something odd not sure if it existed before 8.5.

When I first turn on the SA and set say freq to 100MHz and span to 1 MHz, I cannot set a RBW below 10Hz.
If I then set freq to 50KHz and span to 10KHz, I can set RBW below 10Hz
If I now go back to freq 100MHz and span 1MHz I can set RBW below 10Hz

I have to redo the low freq steps again if I power cycle the SA.

edit: I set the SA above 1GHz and lost the RBW less than 10Hz, probably not a surprise, but when I went back to 100MHz and span 1MHz, I again could not set RBW less than 10Hz.

Is there a max frequency and span for this to work?

edit 2: playing some more I find the limits, basically span is the limiter before hitting a sweep time error. Higher center frequency, smaller span. I think this is good and normal.  There does still seem to be some oddness if I set an allowable 1Hz RBW setting, it seems to let me set some frequency and spans that wouldn't otherwise work.

Did you notice SSA screen message "Sweep time out of range". Perhaps it show too short time this msg  using small text bottom left corner in screen signal area.

1MHz span with 1Hz  RBW filters...

It is good to understand relationship with sweep time and RBW. (and with more wide RBW also sweep mode)


Example:
All to defaults and after then:
RBW 1Hz and  225kHz span. (max is 225.7kHz)
Center freq 10MHz or 100MHz or 1,6GHz or 3GHz. Sweep time is 1,77 ks. (1770 second)

(I have still older FW and not upgrade to latest until I'm sure all these "oops sorry" hassle is over. And in my unit 1Hz RBW have been even with FW 7.x versions.)

This principle in this picture text is very important to understand fully, even in case that SA itself mostly care about acceptable compromise settings automatically for user.
Text is from AN-150 what whole AN is nearly like mandatory basic fundamentals to read AND understand for everyone who play with SA's. Siglent SSA basic fundamental principles are same.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=351298;image)




Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on September 15, 2017, 04:41:43 pm
Yes, my edit 2 says says that I saw that ( that there is a limit ) and I understand what is going on. But the last part of the comment is still true. An otherwise invalid setting will work if you move from a valid one.

I think there is a page in the Siglent manual that discusses RBW setting limits, I will recheck there as well.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 15, 2017, 06:42:25 pm
I notice something odd not sure if it existed before 8.5.

When I first turn on the SA and set say freq to 100MHz and span to 1 MHz, I cannot set a RBW below 10Hz.
If I then set freq to 50KHz and span to 10KHz, I can set RBW below 10Hz
If I now go back to freq 100MHz and span 1MHz I can set RBW below 10Hz

Lets take this step by step for avoid mess.
I use FW 1.2.8.3 (RBW 1Hz unofficially available) I can not repeat this.
It goes like this:

- When I first turn on the SA and set say freq to 100MHz and span to 1 MHz, I cannot set a RBW below 10Hz. 
Yes.

If I then set freq to 50KHz and span to 10KHz, I can set RBW below 10Hz
Yes.

After then I go to 100MHz with RBW 1Hz. (span still 10kHz) and of course also ok.

If I now go back to freq 100MHz and span 1MHz I can set RBW below 10Hz

This is unclear how you do this. (when you change freq from 50kHz to 100MHz do you keep 1Hz RBW and 10kHz span. How it can try reproduce if do not know exatly every step.)  but if I try change span now to  1MHz. Not possible.  Message "Sweep time out of range".

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on September 15, 2017, 11:02:51 pm
Start at frequency 50KHz and span 10KHz and set the RBW to 1HZ

Leave the RBW at 1Hz and set the frequency to 100MHz and the span to 1MHz.

Go back to RBW, it stays 1Hz ok and I can also change the RBW up and back down to 1Hz no issue.

Edit, I just had my ah ha moment. I went to take pictures so I could show what I was doing and realized that when I set span to 1 MHz, it was staying at 10KHz. No error message.
I guess all is good in the world again.

Joel
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 16, 2017, 06:30:01 am
Start at frequency 50KHz and span 10KHz and set the RBW to 1HZ

Leave the RBW at 1Hz and set the frequency to 100MHz and the span to 1MHz.

Go back to RBW, it stays 1Hz ok and I can also change the RBW up and back down to 1Hz no issue.

Edit, I just had my ah ha moment. I went to take pictures so I could show what I was doing and realized that when I set span to 1 MHz, it was staying at 10KHz. No error message.
I guess all is good in the world again.

Joel

FW 1.2.8.3
This message is visible only short time, just like short flash. Look carefully bottom left signal area when you change setting. Perhaps it is still there in new FW. 

Commonly:
Here is AN-150  over ten years later. Keysight version with colors. (http://www.siglent.fi/data/SSA3000X/5952-0292.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Joel_l on September 16, 2017, 01:52:51 pm
Ugh, yes the message is still there with 8.5
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 17, 2017, 07:35:35 am
Hi to community,

i am wonder how you get manages the problem  within file management system - inability to delete files?
It can't be that this bother only me?
Is it some way to resolve this? :-//
And for this who have done last firmware upgrade - is any real benefit of last firmware upgrading?

Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 17, 2017, 11:20:40 pm
Hi to community,

i am wonder how you get manages the problem  within file management system - inability to delete files?
It can't be that this bother only me?
Is it some way to resolve this? :-//
Yes, the deletion of saved files is not obvious but is outlined in the User manual in the Files section on P67: 2.5.3.9 Operate
Simply, when in File UI select/highlight the file or folder and use the Operate softkey where then the Delete option becomes available for use.

Edit.
After further thought "Operate" as a selection to enter the deeper file management UI could be changed to Operator which IMO will be a more intuitive name for it as it suggests further file management possibilities.
I'll suggest this change to Siglent.

Any better suggestions ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Max_RGI on September 18, 2017, 12:33:26 am
After the upgrade to 1.2.8.5 (with the file in V1.2.8.5-EN.rar) I found the following issues:
1) the 1 Hz and 3 Hz RBW are usable only below 150 kHz as Center frequency. For the upper frequencies a flat line is shown.
2) Reflection measurement (selected as "mode") is unusuable; starting the measurement by entering in this mode, the "reset" and "Cal open load" don't perform the appropriate functions.

So a rollback to 1.2.8.3 was executed waiting for a new FW release.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 18, 2017, 09:15:05 am
Quote
Yes, the deletion of saved files is not obvious but is outlined in the User manual in the Files section on P67: 2.5.3.9 Operate
Simply, when in File UI select/highlight the file or folder and use the Operate softkey where then the Delete option becomes available for use.

Edit.
After further thought "Operate" as a selection to enter the deeper file management UI could be changed to Operator which IMO will be a more intuitive name for it as it suggests further file management possibilities.
I'll suggest this change to Siglent.

Thanks tautech,
unfortunately, it seems that my SSA has a life of its own.:o
For some files deleting was successful (first i must rename the file, until only .jpg remains - and than i can delete), for some not!
Anyway, file management remain wired - maybe some days Siglent would resolve that.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 18, 2017, 10:08:41 am
Quote
Yes, the deletion of saved files is not obvious but is outlined in the User manual in the Files section on P67: 2.5.3.9 Operate
Simply, when in File UI select/highlight the file or folder and use the Operate softkey where then the Delete option becomes available for use.

Edit.
After further thought "Operate" as a selection to enter the deeper file management UI could be changed to Operator which IMO will be a more intuitive name for it as it suggests further file management possibilities.
I'll suggest this change to Siglent.

Thanks tautech,
unfortunately, it seems that my SSA has a life of its own.:o
For some files deleting was successful (first i must rename the file, until only .jpg remains - and than i can delete), for some not!
Anyway, file management remain wired - maybe some days Siglent would resolve that.
Hmmm, still on 8.3 here and I had zero problems with any file type.  :-//

I lent my unit to member Defpom, he was going to do a YT review on it but I needed it back before he did and there were a # of files he'd added, some in the root and others in a folder he'd created......anyways, no problem deleting any of them and they were many file types. I did this today after spotting your post.

The UI is massive in some ways for these units and when you can't sort out where you are and things aren't going right.....well I hit the blue Preset button and start again from a known point.  ;)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 18, 2017, 10:36:19 am
Yes i have try everything - blue button too(8.3 here too).
Now is clear to me why was lack of reaction on my complains over file management.
Maybe is only mine SSA affected ???
Likewise, i try not to use  intern file system - with USB stick, functioning all OK :).
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 18, 2017, 10:37:43 am
Are you accessing files on the internal memory or on an attached USB memory?

Can it be that you are using a SB memory, which is corrupt or defective?

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 18, 2017, 10:41:50 am
Hi Vitor,
with USB stick is everything as it should bee.
Things goes strange with internal file system.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 18, 2017, 10:47:12 am
Strange indeed.

I have not expercienced any issue with my device, but then I have not dealt with file handling. I have the SSA3021X connected through Ethernet with my Computer and use either EasySpectrum or my own software to grab screenshots or data.

Perhaps the flash file system is corrupt or with read errors.

Best would be to do a video with your phone showing your interaction with the device and its responsiveness to file handling. Post that here and it will be easy to assess if you have a faulty device.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 18, 2017, 10:53:19 am
I would try to do a video, but the error is quite simple - i can describe.
In  the Operate (exactly es tautech deskribed:
Yes, the deletion of saved files is not obvious but is outlined in the User manual in the Files section on P67: 2.5.3.9 Operate
Simply, when in File UI select/highlight the file or folder and use the Operate softkey where then the Delete option becomes available for use.),
 simply push on the soft-key "Delete" produced no reaction, not for file and not for folder.

but i am not the only-one with this bug.
IW0FFK has described the same error - look on his internet page:
https://iw0ffk.wordpress.com/2017/01/29/hacking-the-spectrum-analyzer-siglent-ssa-3021x/
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 18, 2017, 10:57:06 am
The idea is to be able to try to 100% reproduce what you are doing to see if the same issues happens on other devices.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 18, 2017, 04:33:37 pm
I have created a short video but can't upload(MP4).
Anyway, i can't even create a new folder in SSA alone.
If i understand all right, file manipulation is possible on SSA alone too,
or i have completely misunderstood, and file management is possible only with USB stick.
(With USB stick - is, in my case, possible every operation.)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Orange on September 18, 2017, 04:53:21 pm
2) Reflection measurement (selected as "mode") is unusuable; starting the measurement by entering in this mode, the "reset" and "Cal open load" don't perform the appropriate functions.

So a rollback to 1.2.8.3 was executed waiting for a new FW release.

Yep, can confirm this is an error in 1.2.8.5
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 22, 2017, 03:12:59 am
Freeze bug in File management found, hold off from 5a FW until further notice. Reported.
Maybe suspect USB stick, no further problems.

A 5a version firmware is now available.

Version: V1.2.8.5a
7.3 Mb
http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=6433&tid=15 (http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=6433&tid=15)

Changelog
1.Fixed v1.2.8.5 bugs on Refl Mode.
2.Fixed v1.2.8.5 bugs on language and file.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 23, 2017, 01:24:50 am
I have created a short video but can't upload(MP4).
Anyway, i can't even create a new folder in SSA alone.
If i understand all right, file manipulation is possible on SSA alone too,
or i have completely misunderstood, and file management is possible only with USB stick.
(With USB stick - is, in my case, possible every operation.)
We shared some PM's to help with this, maybe bozidarms can report his progress since and offer some tips.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: bozidarms on September 23, 2017, 07:38:43 am
Yes, tautech, thanks for your help - have done all what you advised.
I can toggle between Dir and File using the top Function button,
" When in a Folder use the File button again (above the round multi control) to get access to another set of functions in the menu.", but when a try to use File button again - nothing happens, although i have already all functions in the side menu.
A can also, with pressing a Create new folder, get a pop up window "New folder", and i also can edit the new name - but than, wen i push a  Enter key, window"New folder" disappear without memorizing.
I don't know would it be wise, and safe to try reloading a firmware?
Anyway, i don't use a file system much, and when, than over a USB stick - on this way, every function work es it should be. :)
Regards
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers crash!
Post by: rhb on September 23, 2017, 04:03:37 pm
I received an SSA3021X on Monday and am in the process of familiarizing myself.  I set it up to sweep from 540 - 1670 KHz and was going through the various options.  The unit locked up so that it did not respond to ANY buttons except power.  When it came back up I couldn't see it over the LAN interface.  When I went to look at the parameters via the [system] button it had reset the static IP address and added a gateway address.  The LAN has no gateway, so I had it set to 0.0.0.0.

Has anyone else encountering units hanging up?  This was a pretty serious indulgence, so I'm rather rattled at having it hang up like that.  Especially after being told by Siglent that a service manual was not available as it had not been finished.

I also discovered that all the trial options have been expiring even with the unit sitting in the startup preset state.  I had read online (here??) that the options only ran the timers if you were using them.  That is absolutely not correct.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers (too many bugs!!!)
Post by: rhb on September 24, 2017, 01:29:26 pm
I just discovered that the situation is far worse than I thought.  Firmware is 1.2.8.2.  My initial test this morning was:

1) power on
2) set start and stop at 88-107 MHz
3) set attenuator to 0 dB
4) select Pk-Pk
5) display reports marker @ 1.19 MHz !!!!!
6) select left Pk
7) display reports marker @ 343 KHz !!!
8) repeatedly selecting Pk-Pk results in the marker frequency reported @ random values including -1.99 MHz!!!!!

I've attached a JPEG of the last result.  I took other pics showing the marker reported at a variety of frequencies all outside the sweep range with the maker located in the same spot.

I had lots of strange results earlier, but I just put that down to unfamiliarity.  But with the marker staying in the same spot and absurd frequencies being reported on screen this thing is clearly not trustworthy.

The specs looked very attractive, so I found it odd that places that were carrying it had discontinued it.  I think the reason is becoming clear.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on September 24, 2017, 01:40:20 pm
A delta marker (note the delta sign) shows the difference between two markers.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers (too many bugs!!!)
Post by: analogRF on September 24, 2017, 01:41:55 pm
I just discovered that the situation is far worse than I thought.  Firmware is 1.2.8.2.  My initial test this morning was:

1) power on
2) set start and stop at 88-107 MHz
3) set attenuator to 0 dB
4) select Pk-Pk
5) display reports marker @ 1.19 MHz !!!!!
6) select left Pk
7) display reports marker @ 343 KHz !!!
8) repeatedly selecting Pk-Pk results in the marker frequency reported @ random values including -1.99 MHz!!!!!

I've attached a JPEG of the last result.  I took other pics showing the marker reported at a variety of frequencies all outside the sweep range with the maker located in the same spot.

I had lots of strange results earlier, but I just put that down to unfamiliarity.  But with the marker staying in the same spot and absurd frequencies being reported on screen this thing is clearly not trustworthy.

The specs looked very attractive, so I found it odd that places that were carrying it had discontinued it.  I think the reason is becoming clear.

I still do not have this SA (coming in the mail) but it looks like you have Delta marker settings on. I think it is showing the difference between marker #1 and the one at 100.8MHz. There is a Delta sign next to the marker report on the top of the screen, too.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 24, 2017, 03:39:21 pm
A revised test with screenshots at steps 4 & 5:

0) power on at factory preset
1) set span 88-107 MHz
2) set attenuator 0 dB
3) press [peak]
4) select [next pk]
5) select [pk pk]

Note at step (5) that the instrument has selected delta marker mode and placed a marker unrelated to either of the previous marker locations.   If I repeat the entire sequence, each time I perform step (5) the delta marker is placed in a different location.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 24, 2017, 04:01:22 pm
 |O

  I think the reason is becoming clear.

Only one thing is clear at this point - you need learn what is this spectrum analyzer, how it works and how to handle it and how to do settings and understand what it is displaying and why. Just start from basic bottom fundamentals.

Of course here in forum can get kind help but it do not start like you try. Claiming that SA works wrong without enough experience and knowledge makes this difficult. (are you serious or is this some kind of show)

Is it better way to ask "how to do this", "what is this" or "I do not understand why it display this and that"

Also with some basic knowledge this may give help to understand principles how this Siglent works
(and if it is unclear, this works like full digital IF system)
Keysight AN-150 (http://www.siglent.fi/data/SSA3000X/5952-0292.pdf)

I have used this SA nearly 2 years and many other SA's. Without problems.

Before you satrt claiming more please sit down and start study, from basics, from basic principles and fundamentals about theory and practice  how to use it and how it works and if you do not undersstand howq to do you cvan try ask here in forum if some kind people can give help.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 24, 2017, 07:06:41 pm
@rf-loop

First of all I read the user manual such as it is in its entirety.

Please explain why selecting [pk pk]  would change the marker selection in a menu I'm not looking at from [normal] to [delta marker] and randomly place a 2nd marker, buried down in the noise where I did not see  it? If I repeat the entire sequence from power on, I get a reference marker placed in a random position each time.  What is the theoretical justification for that?  Giving me a delta from the current peak to the peak peak would make sense, but giving me a delta from a random point does not.  Selecting [pk pk] multiple times in succession moves the reference marker to a different random location.  What's the application for that?

I pressed [peak] which placed a marker on the peak amplitude and put up the peak menu.  That operation left marker in [normal] mode.  Selecting [next pk]  selected the next lowest amplitude peak and the marker stayed in [normal] mode.  Had I selected [delta marker] I would have expected to see a second marker and the difference.  I did not select [delta marker] when I pressed [pk pk] to go back to the first peak.  So there is no reason for me to have expected a change to a parameter I wanted and expected to remain unchanged. Of course, with more experience I would have recognized the tiny delta. I thought it was a triangle with a "!" in the middle.

My issues are with the user interface.  I understand how spectrum analyzers are constructed and the limitations associated with any particular design topology rather well.  I've been eyeball deep in DSP for 35 years and mucking about with RF for even longer.  I've also done a lot of software work.  I do not like software that crashes.  I was quite mortified when I had to power cycle the unit after it stopped responding to ANY button presses except the power switch.

The vendors who dropped the Siglent SA carry the Rigol  SAs and other Siglent gear, but not the SSA3000x line.  There is a firmware update which I will try after I speak with the vendor.  I've got a DS1102E which has been trouble free.  Choosing between the DSA815-TG and the SSA3021X was a tough call, but I decided to go for more bandwidth.  The Rigol DSA815-TG is beginning to look a lot more attractive.

I'm also troubled by being told that the service manual for a product that's been out for 2 years isn't finished yet.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 24, 2017, 08:30:39 pm
A few pages into this thread is when Dave got a SSA to review and teardown, he got himself in a pickle with the UI until he got his head around it. The lesson he learnt was to NOT let fingers work faster than brain. < Double note !!

SSA3032X is my first SA and I expected a very steep learning curve even for basic usage however with the excellent examples that rf-loop has posted here it was not so hard at all. Start with simple exercises until familiarity with the instrument is gained, try to display parameters of the SAME signal in the way rf-loop has to understand this instruments capabilities.
Then maybe you will be ready to progress onto real work.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 24, 2017, 11:22:33 pm
 I have been very methodically going through all the features with an antenna connected to the input to learn what they do using the FM broadcast band as input.  I'll get to other signal sources in time.  First things first.

After rereading the entire manual it became clear that it's a language issue.  To an English speaker "Peak Peak" is synonymous with "Maximum Peak".  In fact, that button selects the minimum and maximum points on the trace and then gives the frequency difference between the two points.  As the minimum changed the behavior was random.  "Min Max" would be a more appropriate label in English.

Having it hang and alter the static IP address from what I had assigned is not something that inspires confidence in a complex product.  I had assigned 192.168.0.10, but after it rebooted it was set to 192.168.0.1.   Naturally pinging 192.168.0.10 no longer worked.  I had set the gateway address as 0.0.0.0 because there is no external WAN link.  After the hang and reboot it was set to 192.168.0.2.  I did not do anything that should have caused that.  I have since set it back to 0.0.0.0.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 25, 2017, 07:05:30 am

After rereading the entire manual it became clear that it's a language issue.  To an English speaker "Peak Peak" is synonymous with "Maximum Peak".  In fact, that button selects the minimum and maximum points on the trace and then gives the frequency difference between the two points.  As the minimum changed the behavior was random.  "Min Max" would be a more appropriate label in English.

If we think example oscilloscope or example signal generator. What is oscilloscope Peak-Peak measuring?  How about example function generator or signal generator if there is level setting, say example Voltage level. What is 1Vpp. It is 1V Peak to Peak. Indepenmdent of if peaks are 0 and 1V or -0.5V to + 0.5V, and so on.

How ever we name this function it is not difficult to remember that SSA Marker Peak menu  [Peak Peak]  can also read as min Peak - max Peak.

This function is one-shot function. Once you push [Peak Peak] button it find these min and max peaks and set Delta marker for these (marker number is selectable by user if need and also other Delta markers are in use). 
After then this marker (ref and delta) frequencies are fixed (until you push again [Peak Peak]) and these markers follow level in these frequencies. Display (top) show Delta Marker  frequency and level differences between markers. User can select what Delta marker pair is used for Peak-Peak. Just select wanted marker number in Marker menu before go to Peak menu.

Here is one simple example.

Tracking generator output (signal level -20dBm) goes to external circuit input and external circuit ouput connected to SA input.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=354301;image)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 25, 2017, 01:24:27 pm

Thank you for an excellent example of the proper use of the function. Perhaps it could be included in the manual along with the circuit.  It rather looks as if it is the series and parallel resonances of a quartz crystal.

I notice that with the input terminated with 50 ohms and the unit at the factory preset, power on settings there is a 5-10dB slope rising from 0 Hz to 2.1 GHz.  Is there a setting to correct this?

In general I would like to store a trace and then subtract it from another stored trace or the current input trace.  Is this possible?  If so, how?




Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 25, 2017, 02:31:51 pm
I notice that with the input terminated with 50 ohms and the unit at the factory preset, power on settings there is a 5-10dB slope rising from 0 Hz to 2.1 GHz.  Is there a setting to correct this?
In general I would like to store a trace and then subtract it from another stored trace or the current input trace.  Is this possible?  If so, how?

Base noise can not correct to flat. (oh well... it "can" but then we loose most important things, signal level flatness what is real important. )

It is natural and quite common in spectrum analyzers that base noise level rise when we go to higher frequencies.

This do not affect signal level  accuracy. It is corrected by internal flatness table (1) -  for every single individual SA (this is done by factory and this is one important part of factory calibration data (discussed also in some "hack" threads.
Also PreaAmplifier flatness is corrected so that measured signal levels are in specifications. And as can see it also produce bit different base noise.  If we look more carefully this base noise it have quite complex shape with many hills and valleys.

This is one individual SA noise floor but other SA may be some amount different.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234072;image)
SSA3021X (previously in this thread:"Reply #212 on: June 18, 2016, 11:54:05 AM" )

Do not worry it is not flat. (as long as it is inside specs.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=354386;image)
SSA3000X DANL




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=354395;image)
Edit/add: Keysight N9320B DANL specs.


(1) every SSA3000X have after factory calibration process individual level and flatness correction table. It is in folder "calib". 
Example every 52 attenuator level (0-51dB) have its own 8kb level correction table. Also there is many other factory cal data.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on September 25, 2017, 07:42:49 pm
I was measuring an oscillator today and was pleased to see how accurate the reported frequency was.
The SSA is running internal reference. My counter is running external 10MHz GPSDO lab reference.

looks like about 1Hz accuracy @ 8MHz

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers (bug report)
Post by: rhb on September 26, 2017, 11:55:52 pm
I have not seen any reference to how to submit bug reports.  Because Siglent support staff read EEVblog, this seems as good as any.  If there is a specified protocol for reporting bugs please direct me to it.

I had setup and was looking at the passband of a 2 pole LC filter using a log X scale. I had normalized the test setup with the filter shorted and then inserted the filter.  I was averaging 999 traces.

When I changed the X scale to linear the output was renormalized to a flat line with a lot of noise at the extremes of the X axis.  Setting it back to log did not remove the 2nd normalization.  So I had to repeat the entire setup procedure just to change the horizontal scale.

I am using the 1.2.8.2 firmware installed by the factory in May 2017.  The seller does not allow returns if the buyer has modified the unit, so I do not want to update the firmware until I have satisfied myself that there are no show stoppers.

Markers have a similar problem in that they are mapped to screen coordinates rather than display coordinates, so changing between log and linear X places the markers in the wrong location.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 27, 2017, 12:30:08 am
Here are 2 JPEGs showing the problem.  The only difference is a single button push to change the X scale.  I'd like to note that the previous times I've done this there was a flat line in the center of the linear X plot.

Despite being very meticulous about keeping detailed notes and trying to do exactly the same thing, I have found it difficult to consistently reproduce problem behaviors.  This suggests to me an uninitialized variable issue.  I've been sole support for several million lines of other people's code, so I have a pretty good intuition about such things.  I'd like to suggest Siglent invest in a static analyzer package to check there source code.

BTW Previous examples did not have the spikes decorating the peak response.  No idea yet what is going on with that.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers (bug report)
Post by: rhb on September 27, 2017, 12:40:45 am
When I changed the scale I dislodged the signal connection.  Here's what things typically look like.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers (bug report)
Post by: tautech on September 27, 2017, 08:24:52 am
I am using the 1.2.8.2 firmware installed by the factory in May 2017.  The seller does not allow returns if the buyer has modified the unit, so I do not want to update the firmware until I have satisfied myself that there are no show stoppers.
That's very unreasonable, you should contact them and insist that you can install at least 8.3 FW that seems it may be addressing some of your issues.
8.3 link:
http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=6381&tid=15 (http://siglentamerica.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=6381&tid=15)

Quote
I have found it difficult to consistently reproduce problem behaviors.
So did I until I found ways to return the unit to startup settings and become more familiar with the UI.
It does take some little time before you don't get lost and with tits in a tangle.

As we have no idea from your profile where you might be it's hard to even suggest which Siglent branch might best help you. They have paid tech support staff waiting to help.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 27, 2017, 12:27:39 pm
Given the risk of a buyer bricking the unit during an upgrade, I don't think the seller is being unreasonable. I plan to discuss with the seller today. This is more nuisance than anything else.

I've taken to power cycling the unit to be assured of reproducible initial state. I do wish there were more information about the hardware.  For example if the unit has power but is "off" is the internal reference running?  I have all the stuff on my bench on a power strip so that I can turn it all on and off at once.  That's obviously not desirable if the soft power was done to keep the oscillator running. 

I'm used to HP & Tek gear and manuals.  I have a Motorola spectrum analyzer,  but it needs work.  My reason for buying this was repair fatigue and the cost of new from Tek and Keysight.  So  very poorly done manuals  without so much as a block diagram is discouraging.  Were I making the purchase in a professional context rather than a hobby context I should not have considered  Siglent after reviewing the documentation and seeing how skimpy and error ridden it was.

It would be helpful if Siglent were a bit more detailed in their release notes.  Rigol didn't even have any when I complained about the glacially slow transfer speed to USB on my DS1102E.  I did eventually install a FW update, but it did not resolve the problem.  I'm looking seriously for a replacement, but am going to ask for a demo before I commit and a service manual is going to be a requirement.  I was told by Siglent support that the service manual for the SSA3021X had not been finished despite the product being on the market for 2 years.

I'm in the US.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Bicurico on September 27, 2017, 12:50:45 pm
There is little chance of bricking the SSA3021X during a firmware upgrade, especially if you already are at v8.x.

It would take extra effort to deliberatly brick it - it would be easier to fry the input stage.

That seems to me as a totally ridiculous demand of the seller: if there was any risk, then Siglent themselfes would not offer a public firmware upgrade. It would be done by authorised centres, like what is done in some cases with premium brands.

Also, tell your seller that the warranty is covered by Siglent, so if the upgrade would brick the device, then Siglent would have to repair it.

It makes no sense at all using a SSA3021X with an older firmware, especially if you encounter bugs which have been fixed in newer FW releases.

Regarding the manuals, it is always complicated to keep up the manual, when developing the firmware. Yes, they should finish it and keep it updated along with the firmware releases, but the truth is, that the device is pretty self-explanatory. I never fully read the manual. I guess using the device just makes sense.

Regards,
Vitor
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on September 27, 2017, 04:45:13 pm
I'm looking seriously for a replacement, but am going to ask for a demo before I commit and a service manual is going to be a requirement.  I was told by Siglent support that the service manual for the SSA3021X had not been finished despite the product being on the market for 2 years.
What do you expect to find in a service manual? You might find a procedure to check the device and determine which board to replace in case of a failure but that's it. Service manuals with detailed repair procedures and schematics are something from a long forgotten past. Repair is still possible but you'd have to reverse engineer the device and have a good understanding of how it should work in principle.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: W7NGA on September 27, 2017, 09:23:44 pm
Just received my SSA3021X and running it thru some testing. No, I don't care how loud the fan is (it isn't), nor do I care how long it takes to boot (reasonable). However, I am thrilled with the performance, especially considering the latest pricing and free Tracking Generator. I'll still use my HP 8711C Network Analyzer for antenna design, but my beloved HP8594E Spectrum Analyzer will most likely get banished to the back of the bench! Siglent has done an amazing job with this analyzer ... every ham radio operator (and retired RF engineer with a love for instrumentation) should own one!

W7NGA
Seaside, Oregon
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: trevwhite on September 27, 2017, 10:09:51 pm
That's good to hear. I actually took a flyer and ordered a Siglent SSA3021X myself. It is a lot of money for a Siglent product but with all the information on this forum it seemed an okay gamble.

I do have a niggle wondering if I should have looked at the FPC1000 a bit more. Am thinking the FPC1000 would be great build quality but everything is an option and I think it probably would have cost a lot more money. The SSA3021X appears to offer real bang for buck.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 27, 2017, 11:39:40 pm
I had a nice chat with the seller's tech support after which I updated the FW to 1.2.8.5a.  My unit was shipped a few days before he updated all the units in stock.

The first USB flash drive I tried repeatedly hung the unit so that I had to remove the power.  Not even the power switch had any effect.  I was on the phone to the tech at the time.  Later I tried a different drive and the update went smoothly, but the problem shown in #708 still persists.

I plan to discuss further tomorrow before returning the unit.  There are some things that suggest a hardware fault.

I'll be very interested in what W7NGA has to say after he's spent a few weeks using the unit.  There are not many options I can afford.  The HP8594E seems to be the best and I've already been through used gear dying shortly after the warranty expired.  I eventually fixed it (bad solder joints), but it was a pretty tedious task and required another not quite fully functioning unit to accomplish.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 12:54:56 am
I've taken to power cycling the unit to be assured of reproducible initial state.
There's no need to do that, use the Preset button that when new is set to factory default but is user definable for your favourite setup.

Quote
I do wish there were more information about the hardware.  For example if the unit has power but is "off" is the internal reference running? I have all the stuff on my bench on a power strip so that I can turn it all on and off at once.  That's obviously not desirable if the soft power was done to keep the oscillator running. 

Most modern equipment doesn't like hard switching, instead use the power button, AFAIK the internal ref is only active when the unit is booted. Even as such the unit need be On and warmed for spec to be guaranteed.

Quote
I'm used to HP & Tek gear and manuals.  I have a Motorola spectrum analyzer,  but it needs work.  My reason for buying this was repair fatigue and the cost of new from Tek and Keysight.  So  very poorly done manuals  without so much as a block diagram is discouraging.  Were I making the purchase in a professional context rather than a hobby context I should not have considered  Siglent after reviewing the documentation and seeing how skimpy and error ridden it was.
There's further documentation that might help prepared by the guys in Siglent Ohio here:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-pxzl.aspx?id=5113&tid=227&T=2 (http://www.siglentamerica.com/prodcut-pxzl.aspx?id=5113&tid=227&T=2)

Quote
I plan to discuss further tomorrow before returning the unit.  There are some things that suggest a hardware fault.
Take some more time to get your head around this unit, faults are unheard of.

Quote
I've already been through used gear dying shortly after the warranty expired.
I've got Siglent DSO's running for 5 years in tech schools that have never given any problem. None.

Little has changed in the marketplace since these were released, they offer great bang for buck and are well spec'ed. Sure, some take a while to get to grips with them to where they can acquire the results needed.

Of course I seem one eyed......but I think back to when rf-loop had not long had his and his classic HP analyser went down the road when he knew that these were a good replacement for it.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 28, 2017, 02:12:25 pm
@tautech I  don't want to quote your entire post so:

1) The system locked up so that the PRESET had no effect within the first few hours of operation.  That was the first instance,  The power switch still worked, but the static IP assigned had changed.  The static IP has been changed again with no obvious anomalous behavior.  As Siglent's documentation is quite poor, using the soft power switch seemed the prudent thing to do in trying to precisely reproduce anomalous behavior.

2)  You don't know and neither do I.  It would make a great deal of sense for the reference to run continuously.  Almost all instrument behavior is obvious if you understand the design.  But Siglent are not telling.

3) The QST article was interesting.  I'd missed that.

4) It hung so hard while I was on the phone to the seller's tech support I had to remove power.  Not even the power switch would work.  This appears to have been caused by the USB flash drive I was trying to use to update the FW.  It happened as soon as I tried to start the FW update process.   A different USB drive worked fine.  The USB in question works fine with Solaris & OpenIndiana, but is not seen by Windows 7 Pro.  This is my first encounter with a flash drive doing that.

5)  I bought a 60's vintage dual trace 60 MHz Dumont 1060, my first triggered sweep scope, in 1990 with a 30 day warranty from the seller.  About 6 weeks later it died.  Having paid over $300 this was rather painful. It sat dead for several years until I picked up a semi-functional Tek 465 in trade for a couple of 141 MB ESDI disks.  That was sufficient to allow me to track down the bad solder joints in the horizontal section of the Dumont.  Once that was fixed I went through and fixed the problems with the 465.  After 20-30 years, lots of stuff is prone to failure at any time. The delay line on the 465 was not properly terminated.  When I went to resolder the resistor it fell out onto the bench when I melted the solder on the first lead!  I'd be very concerned if 5 year old gear died.

I fully agree that it's a very nice unit with excellent specs.  The only serious competitor is the Rigol DS815-TG.  Everything else is too much for my hobby budget.    I've noticed some noise appear that I'd not seen before using kludged test setups.  So some proper test fixtures are very much in order as this *is* RF.

I invite you to test changing the horizontal axis.  Any loose quartz crystal you have on hand will do for the test.  Setup so you can see the resonances modes of the crystal and then change the X axis.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 28, 2017, 07:54:32 pm
rhb
Yes a crook USB stick could definitely cause the freeze and be primarily responsible for your bad first experience.

I'm not so sure the ref needs to run continuously to ensure accuracy, evidence posted by others and my own experience (limited) indicate it's very accurate from power on. I've not tried to investigate drift but it could be an interesting little exercise.  :)
Did you see there was 3 pages of usage notes in the Siglent FAQ link ?

I'll have another fiddle with the operation you suggest over the weekend....busy today.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 28, 2017, 10:02:38 pm
I already had gotten an RMA before I ever stuck a USB drive in it.  So the initial hang was not related.   More curious is that I just used that  USB drive to transfer the RMA  PDF from my OpenIndiana system to my Solaris system for printing.  No issues, but neither Windows 7 Pro nor the Linux distros I tried can even see the stick.

I just sent the unit back and asked for a replacement instead of the refund I'd initially requested.  At this point I have no doubt that there is a HW issue.  Hopefully most of the problems will disappear.  Since i can talk to it over the LAN I can fix minor annoyances easily.

I'm quite amazed that the Siglent documentation is so crappy.  I was looking at the Rigol DS815-TG user manual and it's striking how much more effort they put into their manual  even if not to HP standards.

The [CENTER FREQ] units menu came up this morning with no units and would not respond until I pressed the soft power switch.  I also had a very noisy trace with a cable from the TG to the SA when I turned on the TG after [PRESET] which went away when I rebooted it.   There were some other odd things that happened, but without knowing more about the design it's pointless to speculate.  I took lots of photos which I sent to the seller's tech support along with detailed descriptions of what I'd done.

I didn't notice there were 3 pages to the link, but after spending so many hours using the unit I'd figured out how to do everything listed there of interest to me.  I did not do anything with the EMI or AMK options other than the waterfall display which my SDRplay RSP2 does much better.  I have no reason to buy those options, so no point in learning to use something that is going away.  If the trial timer were based on usage rather than power up time I might eventually find a use for them.  But I can write a quick script to do anything they do in most cases and an SDR will take care of the rest.

Thanks for your help and interest in my travails.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on September 29, 2017, 03:26:36 am
I already had gotten an RMA before I ever stuck a USB drive in it.  So the initial hang was not related.   More curious is that I just used that  USB drive to transfer the RMA  PDF from my OpenIndiana system to my Solaris system for printing.  No issues, but neither Windows 7 Pro nor the Linux distros I tried can even see the stick.


Whole USB drive with SSA3000X need be in  FAT32 file system!
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rhb on September 29, 2017, 02:47:52 pm
It is.  I transferred the RMA PDF after I had reformatted the USB stick.  When I inserted it in the SSA3021X it was as formatted when I received it with some reports from a Stanford research consortium on it.  These were commercially produced drives with a logo showing the year and the files.   I had used it once to do a firmware update on my Rigol DS1102E.  Saving some data on the Rigol deleted all the consortium reports and theses.  At the time I blamed it on the Rigol, but I need to do some testing with a USB hard drive. It may well be that the USB stick was wonky.  Using a different USB stick, the SSA3021X worked fine.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on September 30, 2017, 03:20:58 am
It is.  I transferred the RMA PDF after I had reformatted the USB stick.  When I inserted it in the SSA3021X it was as formatted when I received it with some reports from a Stanford research consortium on it.  These were commercially produced drives with a logo showing the year and the files.   I had used it once to do a firmware update on my Rigol DS1102E.  Saving some data on the Rigol deleted all the consortium reports and theses.  At the time I blamed it on the Rigol, but I need to do some testing with a USB hard drive. It may well be that the USB stick was wonky.  Using a different USB stick, the SSA3021X worked fine.


I'd suspect the USB stick - The company I'm currently work for ordered some commercially branded USB sticks with some marketing videos etc on them. However the failure rate was very high and they stopped handing them out.

In general with USB sticks, I use them for copying files between machines, but I never trust them as a reliable backup.

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nctnico on September 30, 2017, 09:53:41 am
Yeah, those no-name USB sticks are utter crap and I always throw them in the bin. So far Kingston USB sticks have served me very well.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on October 12, 2017, 10:41:51 am
I noticed a while back that my 3032X and someone else's 3021X running 1.2.8.5 that signals at -125dbm are about 2db lower than what they should be and at -135dbm its over 10db lower when RBW is 3Hz or 1Hz. 10Hz RBW and wider show the correct level.
If the answer is in AN-150 I just don't see it.

Vidas  N8AUM
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Orange on October 12, 2017, 11:59:31 am
I noticed a while back that my 3032X and someone else's 3021X running 1.2.8.5 that signals at -125dbm are about 2db lower than what they should be and at -135dbm its over 10db lower when RBW is 3Hz or 1Hz. 10Hz RBW and wider show the correct level.
If the answer is in AN-150 I just don't see it.

Vidas  N8AUM
Something wrongly implemented in the firmware for the 1 and 3Hz RWB. Siglent perhaps need a push to look at it. See also
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1300942/#msg1300942 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/msg1300942/#msg1300942)
Which also mentions a strange behavior. Perhaps all of this is because of the resolution of the ADC in combination with 1 or 3Hz RBW (FFT error ?)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: N8AUM on October 19, 2017, 03:15:43 pm
Hello all, can someone in layman's terms explain what I am seeing and why?
TG output set @ -20dbm, input att set at 20db. Yellow trace was normalized with a good quality JFW attenuator on input. Cable is 20" long of from a batch of M17/128-RG400 MIL-C-17. When I remove the attenuator from input I get the "ringing" and same thing with the other 6 cables.

Thanks in advance 
N8AUM  Vidas
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: 1design on October 19, 2017, 03:46:10 pm
What you see is the return loss of one of your components, have you tried doing the same measurement without normalization?

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Orange on October 19, 2017, 04:52:06 pm
Hello all, can someone in layman's terms explain what I am seeing and why?
TG output set @ -20dbm, input att set at 20db. Yellow trace was normalized with a good quality JFW attenuator on input. Cable is 20" long of from a batch of M17/128-RG400 MIL-C-17. When I remove the attenuator from input I get the "ringing" and same thing with the other 6 cables.

Thanks in advance 
N8AUM  Vidas
This could be the cable or attenuator, or a blown SA input, (not 50 Ohns any more)
Post a picture of only the cable and TG on -20dB, and SA attn on 20dB. Is the ringing gone ? (it should be)

If you did not get the ringing, do a normalization

Insert the attenuator and observe (ringing means = bad attenuator)


My bet is the cable
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on October 20, 2017, 05:27:00 am
I'm not surprised. More I would be surprised if I could not see something more or less similar.

This cable is 50 ohm +2ohm
"JFW" and "good quality" - what it means?  They have several models and quality grades.  What is attenuator model exactly so we can check data sheet.
(these may have example some VSWR as example 1.2 to 1.4  if they are specified to example over 3GHz)
Then there come cable and its connectors, also these are not ideal components.

Nothing is exactly 50ohm pure impedance over 0 - 3.2GHz.

SA input also: RF input VSWR  ( input attenuation 10 dB),
1 MHz~3.2 GHz  <1.5, nominal

TG output impedance accuracy not specified.

Reflections, standing waves. This is not ideal world from simplified books, this is practice in real world.
Small note also: You remove attenuator, also it need note that transmission line length change and it affect because impedance is not at all perfect. More fun is coming if you go to ten times more high frequencies and things start show real magic.
Also when we use attenuators and cables many many times they change - cable bent and twisted several times, connectors wear and so on.  Drop attenuator once to hard floor and write its calibration table again. and so on.







Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on December 16, 2017, 09:57:40 pm
I'm interested in building a reflection bridge and was wondering which toroids you used in your design?
Google this: directional coupler design
Reflection bridge, directional coupler, power dividers......all much the same thing.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: whalphen on December 16, 2017, 10:47:06 pm
Sorry,  I must have clicked the wrong link.  My question is intended for TurboTom in response to his message #456.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rfspezi on January 10, 2018, 10:00:08 pm
I am a bit frustrated concerning the spurious issue that seems to affects several units.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3032x-input-related-spurious-99091/msg1397013/#msg1397013 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3032x-input-related-spurious-99091/msg1397013/#msg1397013)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on January 15, 2018, 09:51:30 pm
Seems like the interest for this has died off.
No F/W updates for 3 months especially for doing manual B/W adjustments that keep decreasing sweep speeds no matter if the B/W settings are increased or decreased.

With all the talk about the problems with 'spurs', I can only assume the above is not their priority even thou it was reported some time back and confirmed.  >:(
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on January 15, 2018, 09:56:22 pm
One feature I find really frustrating is that markers dont stick to the spectrum.

If you zoom in or shift the frequency, the markers stay in the same place on the screen and don't track the frequency.

Very very annoying.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on January 15, 2018, 10:07:29 pm
I think that is typical of most/many SA's IIRC.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: srce on March 05, 2018, 08:03:31 pm
Are there any high impedance probes that can be used with the SSA3000X?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: technogeeky on March 05, 2018, 10:02:27 pm
Are there any high impedance probes that can be used with the SSA3000X?

Any probes that don't require electronic communication to configure themselves will work (so this is most of them except the very latest models). You will have to provide a power supply to the probe, since it appears the Siglent doesn't provide it.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: ghan on March 14, 2018, 03:33:39 pm
Does anyone know if there is a Reflect Bridge that is at least 2.4GHz? Also would fit for this Siglent Model SSA3032X. Siglent only has a Reflect Bridge ranging from 1MHz to 2GHz.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: mv on March 15, 2018, 08:04:21 am
Seems like the interest for this has died off.
No F/W updates for 3 months especially for doing manual B/W adjustments that keep decreasing sweep speeds no matter if the B/W settings are increased or decreased.

I'm also disappointed by the lack of more FW updates. I was hoping for more measurements to be added (harmonic distortion, phase noise) among other things. No luck here. My unit costed 3000 € plus TG option plus shipping. Too expensive for such a short support period.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on March 15, 2018, 09:17:45 am

No F/W updates for 3 months especially for doing manual B/W adjustments that keep decreasing sweep speeds no matter if the B/W settings are increased or decreased.


I have now used this SA after it have first time be available.
I have never meet this problem what I do not even understand what you mean.
I have adjusted RBW's up and down and always sweep speed follow logically up and down automatically (until I force sweep speed to  - manual mode - what operation seems to have little development needs)

Please can you offer perfect description including all details so that this feature can repeat.
I have tried something like adjusting span, frequencies and with these many setups then changed RBW (what is B/W adjustment? you mean. There is RBW and VBW if you mean filters width)
Also tell if some settings are set for force auto or manual mode on when this happen what you try to tell.

Least I want repeat it and see what kind of problem it is and in what situation exactly it exist.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Ghislain on March 15, 2018, 10:22:57 am
Depending upon what you want to achieve, you may want to have a look at using a directional coupler. These come in a various frequency ranges, well up into several 10's of GHz and can easily be found used (Narda is one particular manufacturer to look out for).
And of course they can without any problem be used with your SA  :-+
W2AEW has an excellent video on how directional couplers can be used here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBK9ZIx9YaY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBK9ZIx9YaY)


 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Gonzini on March 15, 2018, 04:03:27 pm
Hi guys
Just picked up a 3021x.
Seems pretty good so far but just scratched the surface.
Wondered if there was a way to turn off the time limited measurement functions and re-enable when needed?
Couldn't see a setting for that in the menu.
Is it just done on run time so once the 48hrs is up that's it?
Had a quick search though this thread but didn't spot anything in regards to that. (or even looked at the manual yet....)
Cheers
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on March 15, 2018, 05:57:18 pm
Hi guys
Just picked up a 3021x.
Seems pretty good so far but just scratched the surface.
Wondered if there was a way to turn off the time limited measurement functions and re-enable when needed?
Couldn't see a setting for that in the menu.
Is it just done on run time so once the 48hrs is up that's it?
Had a quick search though this thread but didn't spot anything in regards to that. (or even looked at the manual yet....)
Cheers

Start reading here
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg1132969/#msg1132969 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hack-of-sigllent-spectrum-analyzer-ssa3021x/msg1132969/#msg1132969)

and then continue reading, read and look carefully until you know (also it is good to perhaps filter some things because some small things have changed after some more new firmwares but still principle is same. Remember copy and keep safe some important original files!!  This all must do with this order: First brain then muscle. If not sure what and how to do then do not until all is enough clear.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Gonzini on March 15, 2018, 06:46:37 pm
Hi, cheers for the reply.
Not going to hack it yet, only just got it today. Just wondered if there was an option to temporarily disable the timer by turning off the demo functions and enable as needed.
I guess its not possible as doesn't work like that.
Looks a bit involved that hack, also its on a later firmware than described.  V1.2.8.5a. I will have a read through the posts though out of interest.
I think I'm going to miss the Advanced measurement kit most, probably won't miss the others. T.G came with it. Might wait for a deal on the measurement kit in the future if it comes up. Quite like to keep the 3 year warranty without the concern to get it back to factory.
I'm sure it will remain very usable without it, just the windup of the measurement button not working or a taunting message...
I have on the other hand unlocked the Rigol DS1054z  :)
Cheers

Just had a read through how the hack works, that's pretty cool..
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: seronday on March 24, 2018, 01:14:29 pm

No F/W updates for 3 months especially for doing manual B/W adjustments that keep decreasing sweep speeds no matter if the B/W settings are increased or decreased.


I have now used this SA after it have first time be available.
I have never meet this problem what I do not even understand what you mean.
I have adjusted RBW's up and down and always sweep speed follow logically up and down automatically (until I force sweep speed to  - manual mode - what operation seems to have little development needs)


I have found this issue as well, when configuring the spectrum analyser to work with an external sweep generator.

When Manual sweep time is selected, manually changing the resolution bandwidth or video bandwidth will change the sweep time.
For example, reducing the RBW will slow the sweep speed.
After that increasing the RBW slows the sweep speed some more.
If the RBW or VBW is continually changed Up and Down, the sweep time just keeps getting slower.

Several other issues have also shown up.
1. With FW ver 1.2.8.5a,  In the Amplitude menu when the Units are changed from dB to anything else, the vertical scale does not
   change. Only the Reference Level text changes to reflect the new Units.
   Previously the Vert Scale did change to show the selected units.

2.  In Zero Span mode, at frequencies below 9.3Mhz, the Tracking Generator level increases by approx. 2.5dB.
     When sweeping, this increase in level does not occur.

Regards.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on March 26, 2018, 11:29:08 am

No F/W updates for 3 months especially for doing manual B/W adjustments that keep decreasing sweep speeds no matter if the B/W settings are increased or decreased.


I have now used this SA after it have first time be available.
I have never meet this problem what I do not even understand what you mean.
I have adjusted RBW's up and down and always sweep speed follow logically up and down automatically (until I force sweep speed to  - manual mode - what operation seems to have little development needs)


I have found this issue as well, when configuring the spectrum analyser to work with an external sweep generator.

When Manual sweep time is selected, manually changing the resolution bandwidth or video bandwidth will change the sweep time.
For example, reducing the RBW will slow the sweep speed.
After that increasing the RBW slows the sweep speed some more.
If the RBW or VBW is continually changed Up and Down, the sweep time just keeps getting slower.

Several other issues have also shown up.
1. With FW ver 1.2.8.5a,  In the Amplitude menu when the Units are changed from dB to anything else, the vertical scale does not
   change. Only the Reference Level text changes to reflect the new Units.
   Previously the Vert Scale did change to show the selected units.

2.  In Zero Span mode, at frequencies below 9.3Mhz, the Tracking Generator level increases by approx. 2.5dB.
     When sweeping, this increase in level does not occur.

Regards.

Ok, now I can see this problem.
Problem is that when user set Sweep time manual (what means user want force it for some fixed sweep time) it do not stay locked to user set sweep time. When user force it for manual sweep (for what? )  time it need stay with this user selected speed independent of what other settings user after then change.

But so or so and for what ever reason someone need (or use it without real need)  this "force to fixed speed" (manual sweep speed) of course this need repair. It is there and it need work. Just so that if you set manually say example 100ms  sweep time it then stay with this speed independent of what ever other settings user  change - until he set it back to auto or change this manual speed.
When manual speed is wrong for measurement accuracy it need only turn "UNCAL" indicator on (always when user set speed is too high)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: leix_99 on March 27, 2018, 10:58:16 am
I notice that with the input terminated with 50 ohms and the unit at the factory preset, power on settings there is a 5-10dB slope rising from 0 Hz to 2.1 GHz.  Is there a setting to correct this?
In general I would like to store a trace and then subtract it from another stored trace or the current input trace.  Is this possible?  If so, how?

Base noise can not correct to flat. (oh well... it "can" but then we loose most important things, signal level flatness what is real important. )

It is natural and quite common in spectrum analyzers that base noise level rise when we go to higher frequencies.

This do not affect signal level  accuracy. It is corrected by internal flatness table (1) -  for every single individual SA (this is done by factory and this is one important part of factory calibration data (discussed also in some "hack" threads.
Also PreaAmplifier flatness is corrected so that measured signal levels are in specifications. And as can see it also produce bit different base noise.  If we look more carefully this base noise it have quite complex shape with many hills and valleys.

This is one individual SA noise floor but other SA may be some amount different.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=234072;image)
SSA3021X (previously in this thread:"Reply #212 on: June 18, 2016, 11:54:05 AM" )

Do not worry it is not flat. (as long as it is inside specs.)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=354386;image)
SSA3000X DANL




(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=354395;image)
Edit/add: Keysight N9320B DANL specs.


(1) every SSA3000X have after factory calibration process individual level and flatness correction table. It is in folder "calib". 
Example every 52 attenuator level (0-51dB) have its own 8kb level correction table. Also, there are many other factory cal data.

I know this reply dates quite a while, but I received my SA last week and it "seemed" to be a previously used/returned unit (no screen plastic, really small dent on the casing).

After unpacking the unit, noise floor curve looked quite higher than the average ones I saw in videos/reviews but the image you posted makes me think there's something wrong with my SA.

I've used the same parameters you used to do a 2.1gig sweep, RBW/VBW 1kHz, all traces average (same colour/trace per measurement), sweep mode "sweep" and input 50ohm terminated. Check this out:

 (https://preview.ibb.co/jEM6n7/PNG13.png) (https://ibb.co/kcVz77)

Also, the TG flatness (which I think it should be somewhere less or around 3dB) is quite off to. I'm not that concerned about that since the cables I had lying around are long and old but still, I have a bad feeling about this particular unit...

Has anyone had a problem like this with Siglent instruments?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Performa01 on March 27, 2018, 11:55:11 am
Seems like rf-loop has some particularly good specimen of this analyzer - maybe some early hand-crafted/polished prototype ;)

If I look at your measurements @ 2.1GHz and compare it to the specifications, then I get this:

RBW=10kHz, Preamp=on Measured: -119dBm; Specified: <-115dBm, typ. -118dBm; >typ.
RBW=10kHz, Preamp=off Measured: -101dBm; Specified: <-95dBm,   typ. -99dBm;  >typ.
RBW=1MHz,  Preamp=on Measured: -98dBm;   Specified: <-95dBm,   typ. -98dBm;  =typ.
RBW=1MHz,  Preamp=off Measured: -80dBm;   Specified: <-75dBm,   typ. -78dBm;  >typ.

As far as I can tell your unit is not only within the guaranteed specifications, but also meets or even exceeds the typical ones.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on March 27, 2018, 02:01:38 pm


I know this reply dates quite a while, but I received my SA last week and it "seemed" to be a previously used/returned unit (no screen plastic, really small dent on the casing).

After unpacking the unit, noise floor curve looked quite higher than the average ones I saw in videos/reviews but the image you posted makes me think there's something wrong with my SA.

I've used the same parameters you used to do a 2.1gig sweep, RBW/VBW 1kHz, all traces average (same colour/trace per measurement), sweep mode "sweep" and input 50ohm terminated. Check this out:

 (https://preview.ibb.co/jEM6n7/PNG13.png) (https://ibb.co/kcVz77)

Also, the TG flatness (which I think it should be somewhere less or around 3dB) is quite off to. I'm not that concerned about that since the cables I had lying around are long and old but still, I have a bad feeling about this particular unit...

Has anyone had a problem like this with Siglent instruments?

I think it need look bit more deeply. 
I have one concern from what I see in your image. But I do not tell it yet before some further knowledge about your individual unit. (these traces are still in specs but....)

But first I need know do you have any reliable trusted signal source, pure sine wave and  example between 5 - 50MHz what level you really KNOW so that absolute error is least less 1 dBm. Something between -30dBm to 0dBm.

Measure some these known level signals with SSA and note if level error is inside this method reliable limits or clearly outside.


And note, RF input is extremely sensitive for EOS/ESD and it happen easy! You do not feel any "static electric" and still it can be damage level. This is common to all, not for just you.

Even if you do not have reliable known level source:


1.


Set  factory defaul. RF input terminated
Set trace A Clear write
Set trace D Clear write
Set Detector Trace A: "Average Log Pwr"
Set Detector Trace D: "Pos Peak"
Set RBW=VBW=10kHz
Set Attenuator 0dB
Set Ref level -50dBm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=407208;image)
Take this kind of  image, SA continuously running






2.


Set SA for factory preset (defaults)
Connect SSA own Ref Out (10MHz) to RF input.
Set Atten 30dB
Set Ref level +10dBm 
Set center Frequency 10MHz
Set RBW 300kHz
Press  Peak (marker show now peak value, note this value)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=407210;image)
Take this kind of image, SA continuously running

Then if you want at this time do more
Set factory defaults
connect again 10MHz ref out to RF in.
Set center freq 10MHz, Span 10kHz (I believe you see 1kHz RBW)
Set attenuator 30dB and reference level +10dBm
Press Peak and select also in this menu Cont Peak ON
Note marker level
Press System
In this menu select Calibration
There open selection AutoCal  and it is "Close"
Turn it "Open" and note how much your marker level change.
Write down "Open" value and "Close" value of marker level.
 
Tell these both values.











Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: leix_99 on March 27, 2018, 05:34:48 pm
Seems like rf-loop has some particularly good specimen of this analyzer - maybe some early hand-crafted/polished prototype ;)

If I look at your measurements @ 2.1GHz and compare it to the specifications, then I get this:

RBW=10kHz, Preamp=on Measured: -119dBm; Specified: <-115dBm, typ. -118dBm; >typ.
RBW=10kHz, Preamp=off Measured: -101dBm; Specified: <-95dBm,   typ. -99dBm;  >typ.
RBW=1MHz,  Preamp=on Measured: -98dBm;   Specified: <-95dBm,   typ. -98dBm;  =typ.
RBW=1MHz,  Preamp=off Measured: -80dBm;   Specified: <-75dBm,   typ. -78dBm;  >typ.

As far as I can tell your unit is not only within the guaranteed specifications, but also meets or even exceeds the typical ones.


Okay, I just had the feeling something was wrong and then seeing those screenshots made me wonder even more. It's my first SA and by far the most expensive piece in my amateur set-up, I guess I'm just concerned about its state since my experience with this devices is somewhat nonexistent.

Nevertheless, I appreciate the reply, I was at work and felt extremely relieved until rf-loop's response  :scared:



I know this reply dates quite a while, but I received my SA last week and it "seemed" to be a previously used/returned unit (no screen plastic, really small dent on the casing).

After unpacking the unit, noise floor curve looked quite higher than the average ones I saw in videos/reviews but the image you posted makes me think there's something wrong with my SA.

I've used the same parameters you used to do a 2.1gig sweep, RBW/VBW 1kHz, all traces average (same colour/trace per measurement), sweep mode "sweep" and input 50ohm terminated. Check this out:

 (https://preview.ibb.co/jEM6n7/PNG13.png) (https://ibb.co/kcVz77)

Also, the TG flatness (which I think it should be somewhere less or around 3dB) is quite off to. I'm not that concerned about that since the cables I had lying around are long and old but still, I have a bad feeling about this particular unit...

Has anyone had a problem like this with Siglent instruments?

I think it need look bit more deeply. 
I have one concern from what I see in your image. But I do not tell it yet before some further knowledge about your individual unit. (these traces are still in specs but....)

But first I need know do you have any reliable trusted signal source, pure sine wave and  example between 5 - 50MHz what level you really KNOW so that absolute error is least less 1 dBm. Something between -30dBm to 0dBm.

Measure some these known level signals with SSA and note if level error is inside this method reliable limits or clearly outside.


And note, RF input is extremely sensitive for EOS/ESD and it happen easy! You do not feel any "static electric" and still it can be damage level. This is common to all, not for just you.

Even if you do not have reliable known level source:


1.


Set  factory defaul. RF input terminated
Set trace A Clear write
Set trace D Clear write
Set Detector Trace A: "Average Log Pwr"
Set Detector Trace D: "Pos Peak"
Set RBW=VBW=10kHz
Set Attenuator 0dB
Set Ref level -50dBm
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=407208;image)
Take this kind of  image, SA continuously running






2.


Set SA for factory preset (defaults)
Connect SSA own Ref Out (10MHz) to RF input.
Set Atten 30dB
Set Ref level +10dBm 
Set center Frequency 10MHz
Set RBW 300kHz
Press  Peak (marker show now peak value, note this value)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ssa3000x-spectrum-analyzers/?action=dlattach;attach=407210;image)
Take this kind of image, SA continuously running

Then if you want at this time do more
Set factory defaults
connect again 10MHz ref out to RF in.
Set center freq 10MHz, Span 10kHz (I believe you see 1kHz RBW)
Set attenuator 30dB and reference level +10dBm
Press Peak and select also in this menu Cont Peak ON
Note marker level
Press System
In this menu select Calibration
There open selection AutoCal  and it is "Close"
Turn it "Open" and note how much your marker level change.
Write down "Open" value and "Close" value of marker level.
 
Tell these both values.





Quoting Mr. Snow - Everything before the word "but" is horse shit -

I have a couple signal generators but they are both too old and too slow, plus the output level is knob-set... That's a no-go.

So far I've barely used the device (just plugged it in, did the noise floor measurements, and some return loss testing on an antenna). Always at really low output levels and with protection (dc-block on the input, 6dB attenuator on the output of the TG), just in case.
Concerning an ESD event, I have the place all covered in ESD mats, and I regularly discharge myself, but there's always the possibility...

Okay enough, I'll cut to it:

STEP 1

Set  factory defaul. RF input terminated [DONE]
Set trace A Clear write [DONE]
Set trace D Clear write [DONE]
Set Detector Trace A: "Average Log Pwr" [DONE]
Set Detector Trace D: "Pos Peak" [DONE]
Set RBW=VBW=10kHz [DONE]
Set Attenuator 0dB [DONE]
Set Ref level -50dBm [DONE]


(https://preview.ibb.co/m7ufh7/PNG14.png) (https://ibb.co/mb2paS)

STEP 2

Set SA for factory preset (defaults) [DONE]
Connect SSA own Ref Out (10MHz) to RF input. [DONE]
Set Atten 30dB [DONE]
Set Ref level +10dBm   [DONE]
Set center Frequency 10MHz  [DONE]
Set RBW 300kHz [DONE]
Press  Peak (marker show now peak value, note this value) 2.28dB

(https://preview.ibb.co/ezXSUn/PNG15.png) (https://ibb.co/mKMMpn)

STEP 3

Then if you want at this time do more
Set factory defaults [DONE]
connect again 10MHz ref out to RF in. [DONE]
Set center freq 10MHz, Span 10kHz (I believe you see 1kHz RBW) [DONE]
Set attenuator 30dB and reference level +10dBm [DONE]
Press Peak and select also in this menu Cont Peak ON [DONE]
Note marker level 2.34-2.35dB Note marker freq. is slightly lower, it varies between RBW, i guess it's normal but worth mentioning
Press System [DONE]
In this menu select Calibration [DONE]
There open selection AutoCal  and it is "Close" [DONE]
Turn it "Open" and note how much your marker level change. [DONE]
Write down "Open" value and "Close" value of marker level.lOPEN: 2.35dB | CLOSE: 2.28dB

CLOSE: 2.35dB

(https://preview.ibb.co/c7Cmpn/PNG19.png) (https://ibb.co/mstFh7)

OPEN: 2.28dB


(https://preview.ibb.co/iQfQFS/PNG21.png) (https://ibb.co/kDhu9n)

Okay, that was it, I tried to eagerly follow as accurately as I could.

Thanks guys for the time, it's quite hard to get nice and elaborated replies when it's your first post  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rfspezi on March 27, 2018, 07:29:12 pm
Short (maybe stupid) question...
I would like to verify the DANL of my device.
In the specifications table, they write "detector = sample detector".
Wouldn't "detector = average Log Pwr" make more sense?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on March 28, 2018, 03:28:26 am
Short (maybe stupid) question...
I would like to verify the DANL of my device.
In the specifications table, they write "detector = sample detector".
Wouldn't "detector = average Log Pwr" make more sense?
In Siglent specifications there read bit more: sample detector, trace average >50
Exercise:
Set center freq 250MHz, Span 100MHJz. Atten 0, ref level -50dBm, RBW=VBW=1kHz
Set trace A for sample detector. set trace A first for Clear write
Set trace B for average Log Pwr, no trace average.
Set Marker 1 trace B (just normal marker)
Set Marker 2 trace B abs go to Marker Fn, set marker 2 function as Noise marker
Marker menu, set marker table on.
Look values and look also how Sample and Average LogPwr tracews differ.
Set trace A Average times 50 and leave it alone. After some time come and look result. ;)

About visible noise level (trace on the screen):
THis what you see is after gaussian type RBW. But also it is displayed noise.
Now all know that 1000Hz RBW  and 1Hz RBW difference is 30dB  if look noise.
But it not right for noise dBm/Hz  because this mean 1Hz wide noise after square filter, not after gaussian shape filter. If normal marker there read  example -118dBm it can not convert for noise level just subtracting 30dB.

Now look again markers. Noise marker and normal marker difference is not 30dB, it is 27.5dB. Simple story can read in this Keysight pdf what also explain lot of how SSA3000X works.



Keysight AN-150
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)


-----------
@leix_99

This do not proof all is ok but in these images I can not see this kind of signs of damaged front end what I have previously seen. This tiny test result: all looks like ok. 

Why I previously slightly suspect something and like see bit more. You told that perhaps this your unit is not exactly factory new. Other thing was that base noise looks bit different what I have seen in many units - perhaps older ones.
Also there is not visible these Spur signals what have been typical and what I also bit wonder - perhaps they have done some improvements in HW.


If front GaAs RF switch is damaged it typically leads to wrong signal levels, perhaps noise level wrong but also I have seen big difference between AutoCal Open and Close.

What is your manufacturing date (or cal cert date). It looks like it have perhaps improved HW what I have.
Just do not look this base noise level with magnifier. It is less important what you perhaps think when we are talking this kind of  levels, example what can see in your images, in this kind of SA. There is lot of much more important things.


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: leix_99 on March 28, 2018, 04:44:20 pm
Short (maybe stupid) question...
I would like to verify the DANL of my device.
In the specifications table, they write "detector = sample detector".
Wouldn't "detector = average Log Pwr" make more sense?
In Siglent specifications there read bit more: sample detector, trace average >50
Exercise:
Set center freq 250MHz, Span 100MHJz. Atten 0, ref level -50dBm, RBW=VBW=1kHz
Set trace A for sample detector. set trace A first for Clear write
Set trace B for average Log Pwr, no trace average.
Set Marker 1 trace B (just normal marker)
Set Marker 2 trace B abs go to Marker Fn, set marker 2 function as Noise marker
Marker menu, set marker table on.
Look values and look also how Sample and Average LogPwr tracews differ.
Set trace A Average times 50 and leave it alone. After some time come and look result. ;)

About visible noise level (trace on the screen):
THis what you see is after gaussian type RBW. But also it is displayed noise.
Now all know that 1000Hz RBW  and 1Hz RBW difference is 30dB  if look noise.
But it not right for noise dBm/Hz  because this mean 1Hz wide noise after square filter, not after gaussian shape filter. If normal marker there read  example -118dBm it can not convert for noise level just subtracting 30dB.

Now look again markers. Noise marker and normal marker difference is not 30dB, it is 27.5dB. Simple story can read in this Keysight pdf what also explain lot of how SSA3000X works.



Keysight AN-150
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)


-----------
@leix_99

This do not proof all is ok but in these images I can not see this kind of signs of damaged front end what I have previously seen. This tiny test result: all looks like ok. 

Why I previously slightly suspect something and like see bit more. You told that perhaps this your unit is not exactly factory new. Other thing was that base noise looks bit different what I have seen in many units - perhaps older ones.
Also there is not visible these Spur signals what have been typical and what I also bit wonder - perhaps they have done some improvements in HW.


If front GaAs RF switch is damaged it typically leads to wrong signal levels, perhaps noise level wrong but also I have seen big difference between AutoCal Open and Close.

What is your manufacturing date (or cal cert date). It looks like it have perhaps improved HW what I have.
Just do not look this base noise level with magnifier. It is less important what you perhaps think when we are talking this kind of  levels, example what can see in your images, in this kind of SA. There is lot of much more important things.

Thanks again, having the opinion of someone who knows this instrument makes me feel better :)

Regarding the HW revision:

Calibration sheet dates november 2017, HW revision on the SA is 07.03.00 and FW version 1.2.8.5a.

Time to do some experiments then!!  :clap:

 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: KevinNZ on April 24, 2018, 11:29:08 pm
Hi,
New forum member here.
Just received my 3021x yesterday. Repaired instruments including Spec ans early in my working life. But used them for the last 30+ years.
Getting my head around some of the features of the unit.
Did some IMD tests with my SG1062Z (Rigol..why does the Siglent catalogue show something similar...lol)
The use of attenuation around the mixer tracks quite nicely..and the RF switches (Macom) just start to show their performance limitation at the top end of the attenuation (10 dBm tones and 45 to 50 dB attenuation), which is right on their spec.
I reduced the attenuation by 10 dB and put external 10 dB attenuator in and saw several dB improvement.
Still getting my head around using the Siglent user interface.
I notice when using the tracking generator and normalising the display..when leaving the TG mode to look at noise levels..it retains the normalised offset, which is a little confusing..so have to remember to switch normalizing off, also when switching The TG off.
But impressed with the package.
Also have an early Signalhound SA44 which has some useful features.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on April 24, 2018, 11:59:37 pm
Hi,
New forum member here.
Just received my 3021x yesterday. Repaired instruments including Spec ans early in my working life. But used them for the last 30+ years.

Still getting my head around using the Siglent user interface.
I notice when using the tracking generator and normalising the display..when leaving the TG mode to look at noise levels..it retains the normalised offset, which is a little confusing..so have to remember to switch normalizing off, also when switching The TG off.
But impressed with the package.
Welcome to the forum Kevin.

After our short emails it seems you've got your head around the UI some.  :)
This is the right place to ask if you have other questions that I can't answer directly/fully/promptly.
Glad you like it as they've been quite popular.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on April 26, 2018, 08:58:05 am
New firmware for SSA3kX models.

V1.2.9.1
~7.5 MB
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6019/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6019/)

Changelog.
1. This firmware must be upgraded from V1.2.8.1 or later. If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please update
    to V1.2.8.1 first and then proceed to update to the latest version.
2. Fixed bugs on peak search and next peak.
3. Optimize SCPI commands for peak table, screenshot, etc.
4. Optimize the LOG X-scale for EMI test.
5. Optimize the Quasi-Peak detector accuracy for EMI test.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Pinkus on April 26, 2018, 12:08:32 pm
Also a new EasySpectrum 1.0.5.0 (usually a firmware update comes with a new Easy Spectrum version):
https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6022/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/6022/)

Changes fox SSA3000X:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Ghislain on April 26, 2018, 09:03:13 pm
Upgrade from 1.2.8.5 worked like a charm  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Orange on April 29, 2018, 06:17:23 am
It seems that with this 1.2.9.1 version, one annoying 'feature' is also solved.

There have been several reports, that the TG would switch off after some hours of use. The only way to get it ON again was to power down the SA completely.
I had this myself as well. After a few days of letting it run in several modes this does not happen any longer.

With this new SW the thing keeps working  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on April 29, 2018, 10:00:38 am
It seems there might be some problem with the latest V1.2.9.1 firmware.
Been reported and soon to be checked on a new unit as well.

hello.

I update from 1.2.8.5a  to 1.2.9.1  and lost the service info to.??  Bugs?   Never tried to hack the SSA3021.
Get it few days ago.

Someone tried to only activate the the options on this last firmware? It was delivered with TG

Anyone else ?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markus_jlrb on May 19, 2018, 08:56:05 pm
Dears,

I have updated my SSA3021 box to FW version 1.2.9.1 (from FW 1.2.8.3)
While checking the BW and RBW I observed an issue.

When switching BW from 10Hz to 3Hz I observed a significant drop of noise
level that not fit to the reduces new bw. I check this at 1GHz center and
span of 1MHz and 100kHz.


See the attached screen shot.

Can you confirm this observation or point me the reason for this curiouse
behavior.

Many thanks in advance.


Markus

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markus_jlrb on May 21, 2018, 09:02:20 am
Dears,

FYI

Yesterday I was doing the frequency calibration task according to the thread listed in the link below

March 25, 2018, 10:02:10 pm
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-saa30xx-frequency-calibration/msg1461231/#msg1461231 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-saa30xx-frequency-calibration/msg1461231/#msg1461231)

After two modifications of the file cali_freq_dac in the firmdata0/calib directory
I was able to match the displayed peek frequency to 2Hz precision related to my
HP  53181A reference.

The attached pictures show the original factory settings ref freq. from the SSA on my HP counter display
and the HP counter internal ref frequency on the SSA screen after peek search as well as the reduced
freq. delta after two adjustments inside the cali_freq_dac file.

Markus

PS.: Counter and SSA running for warming up over two hours.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markus_jlrb on May 21, 2018, 09:07:05 am
Any ideas concerning my observation with the new firmware  in my posting #761 above.

Markus

PS.: The drop in the noise level below -148dBm after changing the RBW was visible on the
whole display. To understand the effect better I posted the attached screen shot im may previous
posting imediatelly after changing the RBW to demostrate this effect. But when the sweep is
on the right side of the screen the entire x-Achse show the low level and no ripple anymore.

I hope you could understand my explanation about the observer issue.
 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on May 22, 2018, 02:25:02 am
Marcus,

I think I got lucky.
Mine came exactly dead on to matching my 53181A locked to my GPSDO. (after 30 mins warmup for everything). no need for further calibration.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markus_jlrb on May 22, 2018, 05:30:56 am
Dear Dubbie,

could you please verify the issue I described in my previous thread (from May 20, 2018, 06:56:05 am),
means the behavior of the SSA when changing the RBW from 10Hz to 3Hz if you have a SSA with the
newest FW (1.2.9.1).

Thanks

Markus

 
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on May 22, 2018, 07:46:57 am
I will do so tomorrow.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Dubbie on May 24, 2018, 10:49:57 pm
could you please verify the issue I described in my previous thread (from May 20, 2018, 06:56:05 am),
means the behavior of the SSA when changing the RBW from 10Hz to 3Hz if you have a SSA with the
newest FW (1.2.9.1).

Hi Marcus,

I have done as you requested, and can confirm that I see the identical behavior to your unit.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: rf-loop on May 25, 2018, 01:52:34 am
Not so seriously becausae this is.....and so on... :


Sad, There in SSA is not enough noise...  >:D   
(or over 16bit ADC if it is 16bit)

Perhaps there need inject more noise for more nice cosmetics on the screen and for avoid wonderings...

16 bit adc theoretical FS range is 96dB

Perhaps there Siglent can do some adjustments for optimize ADC autoranging for more nice cosmetics with under 10Hz RBW ...... or (joke) just reject user for make settings what go somehow  over dynamic range...

Perhaps this image helps smiling...

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markus_jlrb on May 25, 2018, 05:51:46 am
Dear Dubbie,
dear rf-loop,
dear forum,

let my summarize my observation again to make things more clear.
Maybe rf-loop misunderstood my way of thinking and the way I
report my observation.

After the SW update to version 1.2.9.1 I mounted a 50 Ohm Shuner terminator
at the SSA input in order to watch the spectrum. At the center of 1GHz I found
a -110dBm carrier and wonder where he came from.

I decrease the RBW and SPAN and while I set the SPAWN to 1MHz or 100kHz
and change the RBW from 30Hz over 10Hz and finally to 3Hz I observed the drop
of more then 25dB in noise level. But the noise level was to smooth and the
droping delta did not fit the formula 10*log(10Hz/3Hz) as   -5,2dB that should be
and what I would expect.

So I understood the digital IF RBW response as present in the Keysight picture
as a technical behavior due to the measurement technique but not the amount
of noise drop.

@rf-loop
Please give me a more datailed explenation to understand this observation if
you still insist that this SSA behavior is in the range of spec and not a FW feature ;-).

Many thanks in advance for your effort as well as to Dubbie for the reproduction
and confirmation of ihis issue.

Markus


Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: Safar on May 25, 2018, 04:15:37 pm
Looks like bug. Some guys report of disappearance of Last Cal Date. May be something wrong with calibration data also (not date) with 1.2.9.1?

May be try to feed some signal to SA and look for level on different RBW.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: kerouanton on May 27, 2018, 09:00:25 pm
Hello,

As mentioned here*, I'm currently renewing my hobby equipment (old Hameg 203, etc.) with Siglent gear. My first piece is a SSA3032X, which I like very much.

I noticed a minor annoyance that could be easily fixed on a future release of the firmware.

I like the "Display / Screen Text=Off" feature, but when selected, it doesn't display at all anything we enter on the numeric dialpad.
It would be very convenient to display what is typed, and once validated hide it, as it would avoid typing mistakes for being blind... Currently I need to switch on the Screen/Text feature, type my digits, and switch back off the text, which is a bit long.

My 2 cents.

However this is a great piece of hardware.


* https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1568293/#msg1568293 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1204x-e-released-for-domestic-markets-in-china/msg1568293/#msg1568293)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on June 01, 2018, 04:02:21 pm
Has this finally fixed that RBW/VBW manual adjustment problem the keeps slowing down manually set speed speeds??  ???
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: kerouanton on June 03, 2018, 05:20:22 am
Hi,
I'm thinking about adding the RBSSA3X20 reflection bridge to my new SA3032x, but I have a few novice questions:

- Has anyone done a review of it? (I've seen the good TG introduction video here https://youtu.be/0Am3itqZ5LY (https://youtu.be/0Am3itqZ5LY) but it doesn't mention the bridge).

- What are the main uses ?

- Is is anyway worth buying one considering I have a DG8SAQ VNWA, which I'm pretty happy with?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: hendorog on June 03, 2018, 06:12:18 am
Hi,
I'm thinking about adding the RBSSA3X20 reflection bridge to my new SA3032x, but I have a few novice questions:

- Has anyone done a review of it?

- What are the main uses ?

- Is is anyway worth buying one considering I have a DG8SAQ VNWA, which I'm pretty happy with?

The RBSSA3X20 bridge, is mechanically very good in the way it fits the SSA, however it does not have very good directivity.

IIRC the directivity spec is only 20dB. I have had a play with one and I am not convinced it meets that spec across the entire range.

If the directivity is 20dB, then you can measure return loss to 10dB to about +/- 3dB accuracy which is not great.
https://www.markimicrowave.com/assets/appnotes/directivity_and_vswr_measurements.pdf (https://www.markimicrowave.com/assets/appnotes/directivity_and_vswr_measurements.pdf)

The directivity of the bridge is not corrected in a scalar system (i.e. Spectrum Analyser + TG). This is different to a vector system (i.e. VNA).
So for use with the SSA + TG, for the best accuracy you want the best directivity. If you are just testing antennas for go/nogo then it's probably going to be fine. Otherwise you want something better.

Since you already have a VNWA so I'd just use that instead.

If you do want a good bridge, Mini Circuits have some which are better and cheaper, and there are plenty on eBay. Or you can DIY. If you do get a better bridge, then you need good cables and adapters as well as a good termination to test it of course :) Return loss nuttery is beckoning :)

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: kerouanton on June 03, 2018, 06:17:40 am
Thank you for your fast reply! I'll stick with my beloved VNWA.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: RFDUK on June 03, 2018, 08:14:03 am
High spec Wiltron bridges can be good value from ebay. The 60N50 is specified from 5 MHz to 2 Ghz with 40dB directivity min (option 1 is 46dB min).

In practice these are very good down to 1 MHz and up to 3GHz.

Plot is of 60N50 with 5dB pads on input and output. The SSA TG output match is poor, so use a pad directly on the bridge end of the connecting cable.

Top trace normalised through the bridge, bottom trace is a known good SMA load. The poorer performance above 3 GHz is the bridge, not the load.

These regularly sell at <$200 on ebay.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: kerouanton on June 03, 2018, 10:56:54 am
High spec Wiltron bridges can be good value from ebay.
These regularly sell at <$200 on ebay.

I've been looking at eBay, except one *faulty* at 99€, all 60N50 bridges are around 500€, second-hand.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: RFDUK on June 03, 2018, 02:27:36 pm
Ebay listings need constant monitoring over at least a short period of time for a specific item to get the in-demand stuff. Wiltron bridges are in demand at the right price.

I've two 60N50 here bid for on ebay at <£200 in the last 10 years. I probably spent several hours total of monitoring over months before they came up.

Some ebay 'dealer' test equipment listings for old, quality items are asking a factor of perhaps two times the 'fire sale' price of an open auction, non dealer listing. Over the top buy it now items are often listed by small 'dealers' and often the same listings can be seen for several months, sometimes years. They are waiting for the desperate or ignorant of value customer to come along.

Here is an example from a recent sold auction:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/60A50-Wiltron-50-ohm-VSWR-Bridge-5mhz-2-GHz/192543287545?hash=item2cd47968f9:g:mRgAAOSwJsla~bxl (https://www.ebay.com/itm/60A50-Wiltron-50-ohm-VSWR-Bridge-5mhz-2-GHz/192543287545?hash=item2cd47968f9:g:mRgAAOSwJsla~bxl)
$182 after 11 bids.  :-+
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: pjuk on July 20, 2018, 10:37:35 am
Just a quick one...I started an update of firmware from 1.2.8.1 to 1.2.9.1 and it has been sitting on Siglent boot logo screen for about 10 minutes. Any ideas - I don't want to pull the plug just quite yet.

[edit]

it just rebooted and back to normal  :phew:
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: gperoni on August 16, 2018, 06:57:33 pm
I have this obsessions recently, making my workbench silent. I replaced the SSA fan with a Noctua, works fine:

https://i.imgur.com/meTUdnv.jpg
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: markus_jlrb on August 16, 2018, 08:56:14 pm
@gperoni

Some type and ordering infos
concerning the silent fan would
be intresing for the community too.

Do not hasitate to let us know
more details ;-)

Markus
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: BillB on August 26, 2018, 12:53:30 pm
Regarding Reflection Measurement and EasySpectrum software, am I missing something?  I can't seem to find any way to change the mode with EasySpectrum.  If the SSA is already configured manually for Ref. Meas., the EasySpectrum software doesn't quite seem to understand what is going on.  Has anyone else tried this?
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: gperoni on September 06, 2018, 01:07:54 pm
I used a 60mm fan from noctua. That I now regret, since that I believe my unit might have its power measurements off by 5 dBm... (both a PLL and a Siglent SDG give off signals at different levels than what read from the unit).

I can't find any information about calibration for this Siglent SA? In my case it seems like the auto calibration option when enabled brings the signal power from 5dB below the actual value to 5 dB above it... meh.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tv84 on September 06, 2018, 01:27:33 pm
Very good fans:

https://noctua.at/en/products/fan (https://noctua.at/en/products/fan)

I have plenty of them... (don't know if overkill...)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nihtila on September 18, 2018, 10:21:38 am
I am considering buying my first SA in the near future to expand my projects and understanding towards the RF space. If I do decide to go that road, SSA3021X seems like a strong candidate at the moment. I have checked RF explorers and such lower cost solutions to start with but feel I might regret it later, considering these low-cost 'proper' bench units.

How the price of these instruments have developed in the past? Siglent.eu have SSA3021X €1299 now, including TG, plus VAT. I'm in the UK so this means around £1400. Siglent.eu also seem to have 4% discount if paid by bank transfer. Has there been good prices and/or bundles elsewhere?

Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 18, 2018, 05:32:26 pm
I am considering buying my first SA in the near future to expand my projects and understanding towards the RF space. If I do decide to go that road, SSA3021X seems like a strong candidate at the moment. I have checked RF explorers and such lower cost solutions to start with but feel I might regret it later, considering these low-cost 'proper' bench units.

How the price of these instruments have developed in the past? Siglent.eu have SSA3021X €1299 now, including TG, plus VAT. I'm in the UK so this means around £1400. Siglent.eu also seem to have 4% discount if paid by bank transfer. Has there been good prices and/or bundles elsewhere?
Hi, Dunno why you'd want to overlook your local authorized agents ?  :-//
https://www.tester.co.uk/siglent-ssa3000x (https://www.tester.co.uk/siglent-ssa3000x)
https://labtronix.co.uk/drupal/shop/analysers/ssa3021x (https://labtronix.co.uk/drupal/shop/analysers/ssa3021x)

Initially the SSA3000X models didn't come with TG option free as they do now, so it was effectively a price reduction by adding it into the unit.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: nihtila on September 19, 2018, 09:33:04 am
I ignored Tester simply because it is more expensive. If I do all research myself and do not need actual service or help from the store, I am not willing to pay much premium. But a little bit for a local shop. I will definitely use Labtronix if I decide to buy. I am just still trying to understand my requirements in the near future and the differences between SSA3021X and SVA1015X. So maybe I will need help from a store after all :>
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on September 19, 2018, 09:45:00 am
I ignored Tester simply because it is more expensive. If I do all research myself and do not need actual service or help from the store, I am not willing to pay much premium. But a little bit for a local shop. I will definitely use Labtronix if I decide to buy. I am just still trying to understand my requirements in the near future and the differences between SSA3021X and SVA1015X. So maybe I will need help from a store after all :>
If you don't need the 2.1 GHz (or 3.2 GHz liberated) BW then the SVA is the better choice.
I have and use SSA3032X and SVA1015X and I could only have one it would be the SVA as it is more versatile.
In this project I used both but mainly SVA as it didn't need a directional coupler:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/antenna-project-log/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/rf-microwave/antenna-project-log/)

I think I've written it up well enough for most to follow.  :)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: videobruce on September 27, 2018, 09:00:32 pm
Has this finally fixed that RBW/VBW manual adjustment problem the keeps slowing down manually set speed speeds??  ???
No, of course not. Bad set of priorities.   :--
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: dazz1 on September 28, 2018, 09:29:53 pm
I used a 60mm fan from noctua.

Which model did you use??  Noctua list 4 at 60mm.

That I now regret, since that I believe my unit might have its power measurements off by 5 dBm...

I can't see how swapping a fan could affect calibration.
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on October 19, 2018, 07:32:42 am
There's a few mentions and links in this thread to HP's AN150 and 3 I found all have busted links.

But of course it's now available from a KS link:  :phew:
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf (http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5952-0292.pdf)
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tautech on November 19, 2018, 09:00:06 am
New SSA3000X firmware.

Version 1.2.9.2a
~7.5 MB

https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/7669/ (https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/7669/)

Changelog
1. This firmware must be upgraded from V1.2.8.1 or later.
If your SSA3000X has an earlier version, please update to V1.2.8.1 first and then proceed to update to the latest version.
2. Add trigger slope in Video Trigger
3. Optimize Trace Math, and SCPI command
4. Optimize the noise during Demod in zero span
5. Optimize the screen text display
6. Optimize the Auto Tune
7. Optimize the log scale in CSV file
Title: Re: Siglent SSA3000X spectrum analyzers
Post by: tv84 on November 19, 2018, 08:37:24 pm
v1.2.9.2a

Code: [Select]
File Header Size: 00000070
00000000 - File Checksum: C6D2CA2A [00000004-0072EEFA] (with only the File Header decrypted)  CKSM OK
00000004 - File Size: 0072EE8B (without 0x70 bytes of the File Header)
0000000C - Product_ID: 11201
00000026 - Vendor/Brand: SIGLENT
0000003A - USB Host Controller: ISP1763
****************************************************
Decrypting the 0x2800 and 0x1400 blocks...
Reversing file...
XORing with 0xFF (incrementing pattern)...
XORing with 0xFF from 0x00397746 until 0x0072EE8A
****************************************************
00000000 --- Section Checksum: C488E8D3
00000004 --- Section Size: 0072EE57 [00000034-0072EE8A]  CKSM OK
00000008 --- Section # 00000007
00000034 --- 0072EE8A  ***** ZIP file *****
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