Author Topic: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators  (Read 20569 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27260
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2019, 12:35:49 pm »
AFAIK to generate an IQ modulated signal you need a dual channel function generation and an RF generation which has an IQ modulator. Come to think of it... an R&S SMIQ might do the job too.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2019, 12:41:08 pm »
AFAIK to generate an IQ modulated signal you need a dual channel function generation and an RF generation which has an IQ modulator. Come to think of it... an R&S SMIQ might do the job too.
Yep, in the absence of the internal SDG3kX IQ HW option they do this:



Defpom lifted the lid on mine in the vid linked on the previous page but the IQ HW is not installed in the base models.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27260
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2019, 12:42:47 pm »
That solution is getting rather expensive and as usual I'm wary of bugs especially when it comes to equipment which serve a niche market. I really need to propose a tried & tested solution so I'm still hoping someone with hands-on experience generating IQ modulated signals can chime in.
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 12:45:55 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2019, 12:51:53 pm »
That solution is getting rather expensive and as usual I'm wary of bugs especially when it comes to equipment which serve a niche market. I really need to propose a tried & tested solution so I'm still hoping someone with hands-on experience generating IQ modulated signals can chime in.
Sure I get that but do the sums vs SSG plus IQ and then compare what you have for the outlay, a SSG that can be improved  ;) plus a well featured 16 bit AWG that can also be improved.  ;)

Like I mentioned, jump over to the SDG6kX thread and see who's using IQ in them.

Further info, it seems you need a PC connected to SDG6kX to do IQ.
http://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/12/SDG6000X_UserManual_UM0206X-E01A.pdf
P65/198
2.3 To Set IQ Waveform (Optional)
The SDG6000X can be used as an IQ waveform generator, providing ASK, PSK, QAM, FSK, MSK and multi-tone signals. The EasyIQ software is necessary when using SDG6000X to generate an IQ waveform. The EasyIQ is a PC program used to download IQ baseband waveform data to the SDG6000X through a USB or LAN device interface.


EasyIQ PC program is free for download from the SDG6kX Software page on Siglent websites:
https://siglentna.com/service-and-support/firmware-software/waveform-generators/#sdg6000x-series
« Last Edit: August 26, 2019, 01:21:08 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 
The following users thanked this post: nctnico

Offline TheUnnamedNewbie

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1211
  • Country: 00
  • mmwave RFIC/antenna designer
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2019, 10:34:56 am »

AFAIK to generate an IQ modulated signal you need a dual channel function generation and an RF generation which has an IQ modulator. Come to think of it... an R&S SMIQ might do the job too.

Depends on how fast your IQ has to go, and how fast your AWG is. You can have an AWG output an IQ signal around a non-DC carrier, and then mix it in a simple AM-modulation signal generator.



Further info, it seems you need a PC connected to SDG6kX to do IQ.
http://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2017/12/SDG6000X_UserManual_UM0206X-E01A.pdf
P65/198


That is a real downer. There are some basic things which a generator such as this should be able to generate built-in (basic QAM/QPSK/OOK/etc modulations with simple PRBS lengths, for instance). I use these types of measurements a lot, and needing to get out a computer everytime would be somewhat annoying.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 10:37:08 am by TheUnnamedNewbie »
The best part about magic is when it stops being magic and becomes science instead

"There was no road, but the people walked on it, and the road came to be, and the people followed it, for the road took the path of least resistance"
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27260
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2019, 11:09:35 am »

AFAIK to generate an IQ modulated signal you need a dual channel function generation and an RF generation which has an IQ modulator. Come to think of it... an R&S SMIQ might do the job too.
Depends on how fast your IQ has to go, and how fast your AWG is. You can have an AWG output an IQ signal around a non-DC carrier, and then mix it in a simple AM-modulation signal generator.
Not extremely fast. It is for a very basic proof of concept.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6936
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2019, 11:51:04 am »

AFAIK to generate an IQ modulated signal you need a dual channel function generation and an RF generation which has an IQ modulator. Come to think of it... an R&S SMIQ might do the job too.
Depends on how fast your IQ has to go, and how fast your AWG is. You can have an AWG output an IQ signal around a non-DC carrier, and then mix it in a simple AM-modulation signal generator.
Not extremely fast. It is for a very basic proof of concept.

What carrier frequency you need? With Siglent SD6000X  you can combine channels in gen and get everything right from the gen if 200, 350 or 500 MHz carrier is good enough. Also you can get I/Q modulator as separate component and feed it I/Q from SDG6000X and carrier from LO, that can be whatever you have....
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27260
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2019, 11:52:54 am »
Unfortunately the carrier needs to be much higher in the 800MHz to 1GHz range (can't go into specifics). Also the experiences of Turbotom with the SDG6000 are not giving me a warm & fuzzy feeling. Right now I'm thinking an SDG2000 and a used RF generator with IQ modulator should be able to do it. From there I expect the project to move to a real radio transmitter quickly so it doesn't make sense to invest a whole lot in getting IQ modulated signals from a test setup.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 12:00:09 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6936
  • Country: hr
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2019, 12:31:50 pm »
Unfortunately the carrier needs to be much higher in the 800MHz to 1GHz range (can't go into specifics). Also the experiences of Turbotom with the SDG6000 are not giving me a warm & fuzzy feeling. Right now I'm thinking an SDG2000 and a used RF generator with IQ modulator should be able to do it. From there I expect the project to move to a real radio transmitter quickly so it doesn't make sense to invest a whole lot in getting IQ modulated signals from a test setup.
Fair enough..

If it means anything to you,most of the bugs initially found are fixed, U/I had some improvements, I/Q was also improved. Most of the problems are with fast pulses, AWG and I/Q seems OK.
If you want, I can run a specific test to see if that works.  Just send me PM.

Regards,
Sinisa
 

Online nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 27260
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2019, 12:32:54 pm »
Unfortunately the carrier needs to be much higher in the 800MHz to 1GHz range (can't go into specifics). Also the experiences of Turbotom with the SDG6000 are not giving me a warm & fuzzy feeling. Right now I'm thinking an SDG2000 and a used RF generator with IQ modulator should be able to do it. From there I expect the project to move to a real radio transmitter quickly so it doesn't make sense to invest a whole lot in getting IQ modulated signals from a test setup.
Fair enough..

If it means anything to you,most of the bugs initially found are fixed, U/I had some improvements, I/Q was also improved. Most of the problems are with fast pulses, AWG and I/Q seems OK.
If you want, I can run a specific test to see if that works.  Just send me PM.
Thank you. I'll keep that in mind.  :-+
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: 2N3055

Offline Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5327
  • Country: gb
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #35 on: August 27, 2019, 01:24:15 pm »
For a POC, you could use an eval board: I've used the ADRF6755 eval board with its partner USB/SPI interface with its software front end. If you're brave you can puch the SPI interface yourself, although it depends how much you value your time second guessing against purchasing the $49 USB partner board.

This includes combined LO and IQ mixer for upconversion/modulation, and will generate a carrier from 100MHz to 2.4GHz, with ~8dBm P1dB. Baseband bandwidth 600MHz, if you can find an application that needs it!

It was about three years ago I last used one, and the underlying parts did find their way onto a real product. There may be more modern equivalents.

« Last Edit: August 27, 2019, 01:26:14 pm by Howardlong »
 

Offline TurboTom

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1402
  • Country: de
Re: Siglent SSG3000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #36 on: August 27, 2019, 03:49:45 pm »
The ADALM-Pluto could also be a low-cost option, especially since already some software solutions are available that may suit your specific requirements.
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #37 on: May 17, 2020, 12:36:32 pm »
OP updated with new release SSG5000X info
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #38 on: June 15, 2020, 11:02:30 am »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline Elasia

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 726
  • Country: us
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #39 on: June 15, 2020, 02:00:13 pm »
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #40 on: June 29, 2020, 08:00:58 am »
New firmware for SSG3000X models.

Version: V1.0.3.1.19R5
32.7 MB

https://int.siglent.com/upload_file/zip/firmware/Radio_Frequency_Signal_Source/SSG3000X_1.0.3.1.19R5_EN.zip

Release notes
1. Fix a bug for power meter function
2. Fix a bug for power meter filling flatness
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline noreply

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 276
  • Country: gb
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #41 on: June 29, 2020, 06:07:23 pm »
Has anybody on this forum purchased on of these yet??

What’s your ‘first hand’ experience – are you a happy puppy ???

Also can someone explain (tautech?) what is the difference / meaning of

Level setting  vs. Level of performance

From Siglent data sheet we have …

Level setting range
9 kHz≤f<100 kHz -110 dBm~+9 dBm
100 kHz≤f<1 MHz -110 dBm~+15 dBm
1 MHz≤f≤3.2 GHz -110 dBm~+20 dBm

Level of performance range
9 kHz≤f<100 kHz -110 dBm~+7 dBm
100 kHz≤f<1 MHz -110 dBm~+10 dBm
1 MHz≤f≤3.2 GHz -110 dBm~+13 dBm 

Correct me if I'm wrong ...

Dores this mean I can 'dial-up' +20dBm on the interface

BUT

the device is likely to produce an output of +13 dBm (guaranteed)

Not sure how the above Specification / feature should be interpreted

I certainly would love to have a +20dBm guaranteed output level  :P
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2020, 08:46:45 pm »
Setting vs Level is controlled with an external power sensor to null the impact of cables and adapters at distance from the RF source so to keep output within spec and level over its frequency range. Normal for this type of equipment AFAIK.
Have a read of 2.7 Power Sensor in the User manual.
http://siglentna.com/wp-content/uploads/dlm_uploads/2018/12/SSG3000X_UserManual_UM0803X_E01A.pdf

I have the SSG3021X (improved) if there's anything you want to see.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Online tv84

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3251
  • Country: pt
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2020, 10:04:17 pm »
I have the SSG3021X (improved) if there's anything you want to see.

What improvements do you have, tautech?
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2020, 10:07:09 pm »
I have the SSG3021X (improved) if there's anything you want to see.

What improvements do you have, tautech?
Those you supplied.  ;)
BW
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline noreply

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 276
  • Country: gb
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #45 on: June 30, 2020, 01:09:47 am »

I have the SSG3021X (improved) if there's anything you want to see.

Would be nice to see what the MAX dBm level you get on a CW signal at 100MHz, 1GHz and (if enhanced) 3GHz as 'seen on a SSA3032x Plus??

Thank You  :)



 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #46 on: June 30, 2020, 09:48:51 pm »

I have the SSG3021X (improved) if there's anything you want to see.

Would be nice to see what the MAX dBm level you get on a CW signal at 100MHz, 1GHz and (if enhanced) 3GHz as 'seen on a SSA3032x Plus??

Thank You  :)
Here you go.
Both instruments cold and without external frequency reference. SSG running on previous FW.
10 dB attenuator fitted to SVA3032X input. Siglent 6 GHz rated N-N cable.





SSG3021X 3032X displays a red Unlevel warning when set to 20 dBm output like in this image from a Siglent webpage:
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 10:09:53 pm by tautech »
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline noreply

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 276
  • Country: gb
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #47 on: July 01, 2020, 02:10:31 am »

Here you go.
Both instruments cold and without external frequency reference. SSG running on previous FW.
10 dB attenuator fitted to SVA3032X input. Siglent 6 GHz rated N-N cable.



Thank You :)

Not sure what happened with the Frequency accuracy on the low end to high end with respect to the output level ??

98.1333 MHz is most likely outside its spec?? when dialling-up 100MHz even if the device is 'running cold' - would have expected better Frequency accuracy  :-\

Having said that - we are assuming the SVA is doing its job and reporting the correct Marker frequencies  :P

Reason for the wide Frequencies test was to see precisely that - if the device is linier with respect to output level within its specified frequency range.

One of my most important requirements is to have a 'trusted signal source' both in frequency and output level - as I most likely will be using the signal generator in the field without access to a 'second' instrument (like an SSA) to verify the quality of the RF signal  :-[

Maybe there is a more accurate test to verify these parameters  ???
 

Offline tautechTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28766
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #48 on: July 01, 2020, 03:10:47 am »

Here you go.
Both instruments cold and without external frequency reference. SSG running on previous FW.
10 dB attenuator fitted to SVA3032X input. Siglent 6 GHz rated N-N cable.



Thank You :)

Not sure what happened with the Frequency accuracy on the low end to high end with respect to the output level ??

98.1333 MHz is most likely outside its spec?? when dialling-up 100MHz even if the device is 'running cold' - would have expected better Frequency accuracy  :-\

Having said that - we are assuming the SVA is doing its job and reporting the correct Marker frequencies  :P

Reason for the wide Frequencies test was to see precisely that - if the device is linear with respect to output level within its specified frequency range.
Now you're addressing 2 parameters, frequency and amplitude accuracy.

Let's examine each result in this case.
For me to report frequency accuracy I had 3 options:
1. Exactly as measured with cold instruments and unreferenced. Both mentioned.
2. Cheat. Link both instruments via their 10 MHz BNC's and then they would agree even if the frequency results weren't accurate to a real world measurement.
3. Connect both to an external 10 MHz ref.......I don't possess one !  :P

So you got an honest screenshot and with qualified conditions........something too often missing on this forum.
I did use a Peak marker although I agree the frequency measurement is hardly ideal however I thought your primary interest was amplitude level flatness.

Amplitude accuracy.
Back a few posts you asked about: Level setting vs Level of performance
The screenshot results and associated comments explain this, along with the Datasheet spec and User manual.
To obtain flatter response a power level control sensor is required and SSG models support a few types. RTFM.  ;)

So if we need a guaranteed flatness of output we have 2 options, use the SSG at frequencies where flatness is specified to 'Level accuracy ≤0.7 dB (typ.)' or connect a power level sensor, for which level accuracy will then depend on the sensors spec.

Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Siglent Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/@SiglentVideo/videos
 

Offline noreply

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 276
  • Country: gb
Re: Siglent SSG3000X and SSG5000X series RF Signal generators
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2020, 03:43:48 am »

Here you go.
Both instruments cold and without external frequency reference. SSG running on previous FW.
10 dB attenuator fitted to SVA3032X input. Siglent 6 GHz rated N-N cable.



Thank You :)

Not sure what happened with the Frequency accuracy on the low end to high end with respect to the output level ??

98.1333 MHz is most likely outside its spec?? when dialling-up 100MHz even if the device is 'running cold' - would have expected better Frequency accuracy  :-\

Having said that - we are assuming the SVA is doing its job and reporting the correct Marker frequencies  :P

Reason for the wide Frequencies test was to see precisely that - if the device is linear with respect to output level within its specified frequency range.
Now you're addressing 2 parameters, frequency and amplitude accuracy.

Let's examine each result in this case.
For me to report frequency accuracy I had 3 options:
1. Exactly as measured with cold instruments and unreferenced. Both mentioned.
2. Cheat. Link both instruments via their 10 MHz BNC's and then they would agree even if the frequency results weren't accurate to a real world measurement.
3. Connect both to an external 10 MHz ref.......I don't possess one !  :P

So you got an honest screenshot and with qualified conditions........something too often missing on this forum.
I did use a Peak marker although I agree the frequency measurement is hardly ideal however I thought your primary interest was amplitude level flatness.

Amplitude accuracy.
Back a few posts you asked about: Level setting vs Level of performance
The screenshot results and associated comments explain this, along with the Datasheet spec and User manual.
To obtain flatter response a power level control sensor is required and SSG models support a few types. RTFM.  ;)

So if we need a guaranteed flatness of output we have 2 options, use the SSG at frequencies where flatness is specified to 'Level accuracy ≤0.7 dB (typ.)' or connect a power level sensor, for which level accuracy will then depend on the sensors spec.



Tautech

First of all thank you once again for your prompt response  :)

Yes you are an honest broker – so your comments about the measurements you did are welcomed with respect  :-+

Although my main concerns are Amplitude accuracy – I can accept a calibration offset (something which can be corrected like the power coupler Siglent has as an option) but having a big drift in amplitude vs. frequency is far more difficult to control as making a perfectly linear RF signal generator is not an easy task.


Most of the RF signal generators seem to have amplitude responses < 20dBm

– so to get accurate figures at this level would not be easy as is already indicated in the specifications data.

The fact that it goes to 20dBm is a bonus

– but reproducible accuracy throughout the frequency band is not something one would expect – as you have confirmed.


I did have a close look at the review Defpom posted on the SSG3021X you loaned to him.

It was good to have a quick look inside the unit – to see the build quality.

I am not sure if the unit you made the tests on just now – was the same unit?

I ask, because I am also not sure if the unit in the review video was an early production device – if so perhaps there might be some reasons (HW or FW) for the ‘cold’ frequency offset - if indeed this was the SSG and NOT the SVA which was measuring  :-\
 
What made me think the above – was the multitude of scratch marks on the internal chassis that the mainboard was mounted inside the SSG.

When Defpom ‘opened the sealed unit’ – I could not believe the multitude of scratches inside.

Yeah – I know it makes no difference to the operation of the device – but I guess it’s some reflection on Siglent’s quality control.

That’s why I suspect that the review unit must have been from a pre full production run??


Anyway, with all factors aside, the SSG is certainly a nice bit of kit

– it sure is a handy device and VERY functional.


I like that it has an EXTERNAL modulation input (the competition, Rigol device has same)…


This is VERY HANDY for those involved with FM Radio RF amplifier design.

You can easily introduce a Stereo Encoder to generate external stereo signal with the 19KHz pilot as well as an RDS encoder into the external modulation input

– this will give you a FULL FM broadcast signal for testing FM receivers with modulation  :)


 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf