Author Topic: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer  (Read 28613 times)

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Online TK

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #200 on: August 22, 2018, 07:15:28 am »
Quote
Except that ... its not a VNA unless you pay 50% more.
Mine's fully optioned and it didn't cost a cent.  :-X
What do you mean?  Siglent is including all options at the base price?
No.
No further comment !  :-X
Let me guess... a promotion is coming... :popcorn:
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #201 on: August 22, 2018, 07:19:55 am »
Quote
Except that ... its not a VNA unless you pay 50% more.
Mine's fully optioned and it didn't cost a cent.  :-X
What do you mean?  Siglent is including all options at the base price?
No.
No further comment !  :-X
Let me guess... a promotion is coming... :popcorn:
Not apparently:
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/sva1015x/

None I've been advised about.
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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #202 on: August 22, 2018, 07:34:17 am »
 :-DD   TK perhaps it's time you ask the audience or phone a friend for this one?

Seriously,  I believe that Janekivi's post down the page might shed light on this.  Options on many of the Siglent devices are easily liberated through root access.  I'm guessing that the SVA1015X is no exception.  :) 
 
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Offline BillB

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #203 on: August 22, 2018, 07:37:10 am »
...From my limited poking around, I think they are going to be in deep trouble if Ding ever decides to leave.

Three cheers for Ding!
 

Offline PhilipPeake

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #204 on: August 22, 2018, 07:43:11 am »
:-DD   TK perhaps it's time you ask the audience or phone a friend for this one?

Seriously,  I believe that Janekivi's post down the page might shed light on this.  Options on many of the Siglent devices are easily liberated through root access.  I'm guessing that the SVA1015X is no exception.  :)

Working for a reseller, which I think tautech does, I would expect them to have at least one demo/test unit with full options turned on.
So he might also have also mentioned that "his" didn't cost him a penny :-)
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #205 on: August 22, 2018, 08:14:33 am »
:-DD   TK perhaps it's time you ask the audience or phone a friend for this one?

Seriously,  I believe that Janekivi's post down the page might shed light on this.  Options on many of the Siglent devices are easily liberated through root access.  I'm guessing that the SVA1015X is no exception.  :)

Working for a reseller, which I think tautech does, I would expect them to have at least one demo/test unit with full options turned on.
So he might also have also mentioned that "his" didn't cost him a penny :-)
Errr, no unfortunately not.  :(
Any options I want from Siglent I must shell out $ but at least I get them under retail.

See post #119.
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Offline PhilipPeake

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #206 on: August 23, 2018, 02:30:34 am »
:-DD   TK perhaps it's time you ask the audience or phone a friend for this one?

Seriously,  I believe that Janekivi's post down the page might shed light on this.  Options on many of the Siglent devices are easily liberated through root access.  I'm guessing that the SVA1015X is no exception.  :)

Working for a reseller, which I think tautech does, I would expect them to have at least one demo/test unit with full options turned on.
So he might also have also mentioned that "his" didn't cost him a penny :-)
Errr, no unfortunately not.  :(
Any options I want from Siglent I must shell out $ but at least I get them under retail.

See post #119.

Really? I would have expected a deeper discount for kit dedicated to demos and providing support to your (and their) customers.
 

Offline allenc

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #207 on: September 09, 2018, 10:07:16 am »
First post on eevblog.  Hate to start off on a down note but I came into some disposable funds and was looking hard at the SVA1015X when I came across this: https://groups.io/g/svna/message/78

Quote
VNA function has a 10MHz lower limit. Presumably this is due to the chip coupler, but rules out 40m and below for VNA.

The SVA1015X datasheet corroborates this: VNA frequency range is 10 MHz~1.5 GHz.

No VNA operation below 10 MHz?  I'm sorry but that is a major fail in my book.  As a ham and electronics hobbyist I'm looking to characterize filters, baluns, chokes and other devices at HF frequencies below 10 Mhz.  I realize that professional engineers today spend most of their time at frequencies several orders of magnitude higher, but even so they still deal with intermediate stages that are below 10 MHz.

Anyhow, that limit wasn't mentioned in Dave's excellent teardown/review and I didn't spot it in this thread so I thought I'd share it.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #208 on: September 09, 2018, 10:34:36 am »
First post on eevblog.  Hate to start off on a down note but I came into some disposable funds and was looking hard at the SVA1015X when I came across this: https://groups.io/g/svna/message/78

Quote
VNA function has a 10MHz lower limit. Presumably this is due to the chip coupler, but rules out 40m and below for VNA.

The SVA1015X datasheet corroborates this: VNA frequency range is 10 MHz~1.5 GHz.

No VNA operation below 10 MHz?  I'm sorry but that is a major fail in my book.  As a ham and electronics hobbyist I'm looking to characterize filters, baluns, chokes and other devices at HF frequencies below 10 Mhz.  I realize that professional engineers today spend most of their time at frequencies several orders of magnitude higher, but even so they still deal with intermediate stages that are below 10 MHz.

Anyhow, that limit wasn't mentioned in Dave's excellent teardown/review and I didn't spot it in this thread so I thought I'd share it.
Welcome to the forum.

If you hadn't realized, that link and post was from our member hendorog that had my SVA1015X for a while for checks against his HP gear. We expect some more improvements to SVA however from replies I'd had from Siglent, no changes to datasheet specification.
One must be somewhat careful deciphering the datasheet for these as specs listed are for guaranteed accurate performance when the equipment can indeed operate outside those specs but with lesser accuracy.
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Offline hendorog

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #209 on: September 09, 2018, 11:36:28 am »
First post on eevblog.  Hate to start off on a down note but I came into some disposable funds and was looking hard at the SVA1015X when I came across this: https://groups.io/g/svna/message/78

Quote
VNA function has a 10MHz lower limit. Presumably this is due to the chip coupler, but rules out 40m and below for VNA.

The SVA1015X datasheet corroborates this: VNA frequency range is 10 MHz~1.5 GHz.

No VNA operation below 10 MHz?  I'm sorry but that is a major fail in my book.  As a ham and electronics hobbyist I'm looking to characterize filters, baluns, chokes and other devices at HF frequencies below 10 Mhz.  I realize that professional engineers today spend most of their time at frequencies several orders of magnitude higher, but even so they still deal with intermediate stages that are below 10 MHz.

Anyhow, that limit wasn't mentioned in Dave's excellent teardown/review and I didn't spot it in this thread so I thought I'd share it.


Yep thats me.

That limitation is mentioned and discussed here. I initially assumed that it was just a first release software limitation which would be removed. Then someone correctly pointed out that it was likely due to the lower frequency limit of the coupler.

This might not be as big of an issue if and when the software is enhanced to support S parameter exporting to a PC. Then an external coupler and a couple of mixers could be used to create a simple transverter to cover that range. Possibly the SVA reference could be used as an LO for the transverter.

The other software enhancement which would make this simpler is an OSL calibration type on port #2 instead of just on port 1.

For the adventurous it could be done without the software enhancements, by feeding the transverter output back into port 1 via a second directional coupler.

I have played with this approach on a different device as a way of converting any spectrum analyzer into a VNA.
The SA input will always have some (unwanted) LO coming out, and so the idea is to take that unwanted LO, convert it in frequency so that it matches the input of the SA, amplify it and then bounce it off a DUT. Then feed it back into the input of the SA again. The downside for an SA is that there is no reference channel, unless a solid state switch is also added. The SVA has the switch and reference channel already.

Not an out of the box solution, but it is possible.

 

Offline xaxaxa

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #210 on: September 10, 2018, 02:47:34 pm »

No VNA operation below 10 MHz?  I'm sorry but that is a major fail in my book.  As a ham and electronics hobbyist I'm looking to characterize filters, baluns, chokes and other devices at HF frequencies below 10 Mhz.  I realize that professional engineers today spend most of their time at frequencies several orders of magnitude higher, but even so they still deal with intermediate stages that are below 10 MHz.

To be fair it's difficult to make a coupler that can work all the way from LF to UHF; you basically need a balun that covers that frequency range and preserves balun action.

This might not be as big of an issue if and when the software is enhanced to support S parameter exporting to a PC. Then an external coupler and a couple of mixers could be used to create a simple transverter to cover that range. Possibly the SVA reference could be used as an LO for the transverter.

The other software enhancement which would make this simpler is an OSL calibration type on port #2 instead of just on port 1.

For the adventurous it could be done without the software enhancements, by feeding the transverter output back into port 1 via a second directional coupler.

I have played with this approach on a different device as a way of converting any spectrum analyzer into a VNA.
The SA input will always have some (unwanted) LO coming out, and so the idea is to take that unwanted LO, convert it in frequency so that it matches the input of the SA, amplify it and then bounce it off a DUT. Then feed it back into the input of the SA again. The downside for an SA is that there is no reference channel, unless a solid state switch is also added. The SVA has the switch and reference channel already.

Not an out of the box solution, but it is possible.

I wouldn't bother because the accuracy will be spotty at best; keep in mind any phase drift introduced in the signal path will screw up the measurements, which is why in a proper VNA there is always a reference path. In my experience of designing VNAs the reference path must be identical to the reflected path and any mixing stages must be driven from the same LO for both paths (even two LO signals phase locked to the same clock isn't good enough), so having a transverter on the reflected path but not the reference path will really fuck up the measurements.

I don't think it's worth bothering trying to hack this because you can very easily build a much cheaper VNA that will actually be accurate; I can imagine for HF to VHF just some cheap clock gen chips plus a coupler using a cheap surface mount balun, mixers, and a stm32 with audio ADC will do fairly well. Actually that might be a good product idea.

Also I don't think any of the low cost VNAs can do SOL calibration on port 2, because they are all of the T/R type, meaning only port 1 has signal output capability. Designing a full two port VNA (and one with good port-to-port isolation) is HARD; not only do you have to have a port switch with 100dB isolation, you also have think about things like the RF signal leaking into the LO via the receive mixer and then into the other port's receiver mixer (you can't use two different LO synthesizers for the two ports for the aforementioned reasons). And to lay out everything on a board while keeping good isolation between the sig gen and the two ports, between the sig gen and the LO, between the two receivers, while keeping in mind the LO signal has to be routed to the two receivers. Only after almost a year of development did I manage to get all the details right and build a full two-port VNA with reasonable performance.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2018, 03:16:35 pm by xaxaxa »
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #211 on: September 10, 2018, 04:23:49 pm »

No VNA operation below 10 MHz?  I'm sorry but that is a major fail in my book.  As a ham and electronics hobbyist I'm looking to characterize filters, baluns, chokes and other devices at HF frequencies below 10 Mhz.  I realize that professional engineers today spend most of their time at frequencies several orders of magnitude higher, but even so they still deal with intermediate stages that are below 10 MHz.

To be fair it's difficult to make a coupler that can work all the way from LF to UHF; you basically need a balun that covers that frequency range and preserves balun action.

This might not be as big of an issue if and when the software is enhanced to support S parameter exporting to a PC. Then an external coupler and a couple of mixers could be used to create a simple transverter to cover that range. Possibly the SVA reference could be used as an LO for the transverter.

The other software enhancement which would make this simpler is an OSL calibration type on port #2 instead of just on port 1.

For the adventurous it could be done without the software enhancements, by feeding the transverter output back into port 1 via a second directional coupler.

I have played with this approach on a different device as a way of converting any spectrum analyzer into a VNA.
The SA input will always have some (unwanted) LO coming out, and so the idea is to take that unwanted LO, convert it in frequency so that it matches the input of the SA, amplify it and then bounce it off a DUT. Then feed it back into the input of the SA again. The downside for an SA is that there is no reference channel, unless a solid state switch is also added. The SVA has the switch and reference channel already.

Not an out of the box solution, but it is possible.

I wouldn't bother because the accuracy will be spotty at best; keep in mind any phase drift introduced in the signal path will screw up the measurements, which is why in a proper VNA there is always a reference path. In my experience of designing VNAs the reference path must be identical to the reflected path and any mixing stages must be driven from the same LO for both paths (even two LO signals phase locked to the same clock isn't good enough), so having a transverter on the reflected path but not the reference path will really fuck up the measurements.

I don't think it's worth bothering trying to hack this because you can very easily build a much cheaper VNA that will actually be accurate; I can imagine for HF to VHF just some cheap clock gen chips plus a coupler using a cheap surface mount balun, mixers, and a stm32 with audio ADC will do fairly well. Actually that might be a good product idea.

Also I don't think any of the low cost VNAs can do SOL calibration on port 2, because they are all of the T/R type, meaning only port 1 has signal output capability. Designing a full two port VNA (and one with good port-to-port isolation) is HARD; not only do you have to have a port switch with 100dB isolation, you also have think about things like the RF signal leaking into the LO via the receive mixer and then into the other port's receiver mixer (you can't use two different LO synthesizers for the two ports for the aforementioned reasons). And to lay out everything on a board while keeping good isolation between the sig gen and the two ports, between the sig gen and the LO, between the two receivers, while keeping in mind the LO signal has to be routed to the two receivers. Only after almost a year of development did I manage to get all the details right and build a full two-port VNA with reasonable performance.


The 10MHz for the transverter can be taken from the reference output on the back of the SVA. No phase issues with that as its driving the LO already.
But I think you are correct, there will likely be an accuracy hit from amplitude differences between the reference path and the signal path. I'm don't know what the extent of that would be.

Port 2 of the SVA has an even more direct signal path to the ADC than Port 1 does. So with software support it would be quite possible to use that input in a cal or measurement same as Port 1 can.
Port 2 lacks a coupler obviously, we need an external coupler to get below 10MHz anyway.

I'm not talking about 100dB isolation here. Its just a simple cost effective way to make measurements below 10 MHz on an instrument which has this limitation.

Here is one for the N2PK for measuring higher frequencies. Its not rocket salad.
http://www.makarov.ca/vna_transverter.htm

Might have to do some experimentation with this...

 

Offline MrW0lf

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #212 on: September 22, 2018, 06:53:28 pm »
 

Online Wolfgang

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #213 on: September 23, 2018, 10:04:18 pm »
Agreed, for amateur use an LF limit of 10MHz does not make any sense.
When you look at other VNAs, the lower limit is normally around 100kHz (with bias tees) or close to 10kHz (without).
When you look at the VNAs from DG8SAQ or NP2PK its possible without major effort.
The record holder is a Keysight E5061B with a lower limit of 5Hz (also definitely without a coupler).
Why did Siglent do it this funny way ?
 

Offline bson

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #214 on: September 24, 2018, 05:02:25 pm »
You need a coupler for the reflection measurements, and you need a reference for the reflection measurements to be complex, or they can't be used to calculate input and output impedances - which is a major reason to have a VNA in the first place.

In other words, given Z=Z0*(1+S11)/(1-S11) for a reference impedance Z0 (e.g 50Ω), if you use |S11| instead of S11 you get Z0*VSWR, not impedance.  If you plot the two curves for S11 = [0+0j, 1+1j], you get two very different results:



(Z0=50Ω; real on X axis, imaginary on Y axis; |Z| from complex S11 on the left, using |S11| on the right.)

 

Offline ct1bxt

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #215 on: September 25, 2018, 11:59:04 am »
Hi,

I want to buy one, but probably is a good idea wait for some improvements.
One of those will be the lower frequency of VNA .

Regards
Rodrigo
 

Online TK

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #216 on: September 25, 2018, 08:33:00 pm »
I don't see too much interest on this forum or any marketing effort (except for Tautech posting a project where He uses it) about this instrument like the Siglent Spectrum Analyzer, DSO, etc.  I see a high risk of this instrument being left undeveloped any further by Siglent and even discontinued.  Please, anyone with connection to Siglent, correct me if I am wrong.
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #217 on: September 25, 2018, 08:41:27 pm »
I don't see too much interest on this forum or any marketing effort (except for Tautech posting a project where He uses it) about this instrument like the Siglent Spectrum Analyzer, DSO, etc.  I see a high risk of this instrument being left undeveloped any further by Siglent and even discontinued.  Please, anyone with connection to Siglent, correct me if I am wrong.
Considering they're only been out for 2 months  :-//
Prospective customers are still finding out about them and their capabilities.......give it time.....this instrument fits a niche market of those that don't need a high BW SA and for which the VNA can be useful too.

BTW, for US buyers the Siglent shop has one on special:
https://store.siglentamerica.com/product/sva1015x-demo-returned-unit-includes-vna-option/


« Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 08:47:57 pm by tautech »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #218 on: October 14, 2018, 12:26:49 pm »
Getting a frustrating OZ made Merlin garage door remote back to correct 339 MHz frequency. RF coax loop sniffer used.
Luckily it has a cap trimmer to do so but this remote unit is so old now the trimmer had to go for a swim in IPA before it would behave properly.  :phew:

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Offline LapTop006

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #219 on: October 15, 2018, 01:04:34 am »
Getting a frustrating OZ made ... so old now the trimmer had to go for a swim in IPA before it would behave properly.  :phew:

Yep, that sounds Australian.
 

Offline PhilipPeake

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #220 on: October 15, 2018, 03:18:40 am »
I am pretty much convinced that the lower frequency limit in VNA mode is due to the directional coupler design. As I mentioned before, I am somewhat amazed that it actually works down to that frequency.

I don’t foresee any change other than a redesign, and probably significantly increased price to “fix” this.

If you want to roll your own directional coupler for lower frequencies, you could use it in SA mode and use the tracking generator. It isn’t a VNA when used like this, but for checking antenna SWR and filter frequency response it should be good enough for most ham purposes.

I bought one. It only arrived last week, so I haven’t had time to really play, but I did use the VNA to look at how my old 2m/70cm antenna is working (well, apparently). SWR and Smith chart views were good.

Also switched to SA with the antenna connected as input, restricted to 144 to 148 MHz and watched the signals appearing and disappearing. Better display of this than I get on my radio ... but so I would expect.

I was a little dissapointed at the low end coverage, but if you want a combined sa/VNA and all the other options going up to 1.5GHz, it is going to cost a lot more.

My biggest gripe is the cost of the options, and just how much of the functionality is an option.
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #221 on: October 28, 2018, 09:24:01 am »
Useful basic reference document for VNA usage:
http://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/5965-7917E.pdf
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Offline ct1bxt

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #222 on: December 24, 2018, 02:28:30 pm »
Hi,

any update in TG and VNA low frequency ?
After such issues with the VNA and TG low frequencies, I´m asking my self if is better to go for to SSA3021 instead.
I lost the VNA function but the TG is much better.
Any ideas about that ?
Regards
Rodrigo
 
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #223 on: December 24, 2018, 07:11:12 pm »
Hi,

any update in TG and VNA low frequency ?
After such issues with the VNA and TG low frequencies, I´m asking my self if is better to go for to SSA3021 instead.
I lost the VNA function but the TG is much better.
Any ideas about that ?
Regards
Rodrigo
 
The data sheet specs are what they are unfortunately but a SVA3kX model is coming.

Some addition of options can be had if you study here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-ads-firmware-file-format/msg1364981/#msg1364981
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Offline ct1bxt

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Re: Siglent SVA1015X 1.5GHz Spectrum & Vector Network Analyzer
« Reply #224 on: December 25, 2018, 03:23:21 am »
Hi Taut,

probably the SVA3kX will solve all the 1015x issues, but what will be the price?
More then 2k hear in Europe, I presume.
I want to keep the value around 1,5k eur.
Just watch siglent site and the ssa3021 TG promotion finishes 12/2018,so, in few days.
I should to decide between this two models. I have some doubts about it.
Regards
Rodrigo

 


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