Siglent's new products - SDS3000 series oscilloscopes

[nctnico]

Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.

[Wuerstchenhund]

The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.

Except the cost of a 2-channel, 200 MHz LeCroy version (WaveSurfer 3022) is only $3,200 USD, not $8k.  Perhaps that price guess for the SDS3102 was too high?

No shit, Sherlock? But you *are* aware that I wrote that was four months ago when the LeCroy variant wasn't even announced, right??? 

Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope. Siglent has already proven that they can produce quality hardware.

The positioning as WaveSurfer is still a bit odd, but I guess they wanted to re-position the WaveSurfer a little bit further below the WaveRunner to avoid cannibalization.

Still, it's surprising (and unfortunate) that the LeCroy version does not support some protocols (like CAN and LIN), that the Siglent version does.  And Siglent offers a lower-priced 100 MHz option, which LeCroy bypassed.

I'm sure if the Siglent version supports it then the LeCroy version will, too, as LeCroy seems to be the one who develops the software not Siglent. But yeah, the decoding capabilities are a bit thin (I'm missing stuff like ARINC429/MIL-Std 1553 which was supported by the preceeding WaveSurfer models (and which Agilent offers for the DSO-X3000 Series, which is what the WaveSurfer 3000 competes with).

I can also see why LeCroy doesn't offer the 100MHz version as it doesn't make much sense (it wouldn't be much cheaper than the 200MHz version, and who would buy an advanced scope with only 100MHz bandwidth anyways?).

[Wuerstchenhund]

Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.

I don't think they will be available outside, I bet that the licensing agreement with LeCroy (after all, Siglent is using their technology) will prevent them from being sold outside China and maybe some other Asian countries.

Considering the functionaliy these scopes offer, and the surprisingly reasonable price for the LeCroy variant, I'm not sure there would be any dramatic savings when going with the Siglent version.

And (most important): the LeCroy variant is in black!!!

[Mark_O]

The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.

Except the cost of a 2-channel, 200 MHz LeCroy version (WaveSurfer 3022) is only $3,200 USD, not $8k.  Perhaps that price guess for the SDS3102 was too high?

No shit, Sherlock? But you *are* aware that I wrote that was four months ago when the LeCroy variant wasn't even announced, right??? 

   I don't understand the animosity in your response.  I wasn't criticizing you in any way for an old price estimate.  Just letting folks know the actual price turned out to be significantly more reasonable.  What side of the bed did you get up from this morning?   

Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope.

You're very welcome.  And I agree.

[Mark_O]

Considering the functionaliy these scopes offer, and the surprisingly reasonable price for the LeCroy variant, I'm not sure there would be any dramatic savings when going with the Siglent version.

Though it may not be dramatic, it might still not be insignificant.  I didn't have access to the pricing info for the SDS3000 you were using way back when, but I do recall seeing somewhere on their site since then a banner with about 21,000 Yuan Renminbi ($3,400) listed.  And I was unsure if that applied to the 4-channel, 500 MHz (?) version they were showing, or the base-model (I can't read Chinese).  If the former, that's equivalent to the WaveSurfer 3054, at almost 7-grand.

Also of some interest, though Siglent was touting reaching the 1 GHz BW milestone, LeCroy offers nothing beyond 500 MHz.  [Probably because that starts to encroach on their higher-priced models.]

And (most important): the LeCroy variant is in black!!!

Cool!   

Ah, I found it.  Perhaps one of our members who isn't so woefully lacking in language skills as I can shed some light...

[Wuerstchenhund]

  I don't understand the animosity in your response.  I wasn't criticizing you in any way for an old price estimate.  Just letting folks know the actual price turned out to be significantly more reasonable.  What side of the bed did you get up from this morning?   

No anymosity. I just find asking if a guess which was made a long time ago was wrong after the facts a bit pointless. But nevermind.

Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope.

You're very welcome.  And I agree.

So let's get to the important bit: who's going to get one and do a review?

(Which reminds me: didn't LeCroy want to send Dave some scopes for review a long while ago? I guess it didn't happen.)

[tautech]

Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.

Nothing has changed that I am aware of re SDS3000 series for western markets.
LeCroy has an agreement with Siglent for western markets AFAIK.

I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales

Exactly what I have asked Siglent.

The Chinese market will be more profitable per unit than sales to LeCroy so we may well see some units "migrate" to the west.

There are I believe new top end ( for Siglent) models in development, but how far advanced and close to release, I am not sure.
Hopefully I will get a glimpse at these when I visit Siglent next month.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Though it may not be dramatic, it might still not be insignificant.  I didn't have access to the pricing info for the SDS3000 you were using way back when, but I do recall seeing somewhere on their site since then a banner with about 21,000 Yuan Renminbi ($3,400) listed.  And I was unsure if that applied to the 4-channel, 500 MHz (?) version they were showing, or the base-model (I can't read Chinese).  If the former, that's equivalent to the WaveSurfer 3054, at almost 7-grand.

I'm pretty sure the price is for the 2Ch 100MHz variant (SDS3102). Even Siglent can't offer a 500MHz 4Ch scope with these specs for that price, especially not when they have to license the software.

And $3400 for the 100MHz variant isn't really cheap when the 2Ch 200MHz LeCroy version is in the same ballpark. In black, and with LeCroy's support behind.

Also of some interest, though Siglent was touting reaching the 1 GHz BW milestone, LeCroy offers nothing beyond 500 MHz.  [Probably because that starts to encroach on their higher-priced models.]

Most certainly. I guess the previous WaveSurfer models were a bit too close to the more expensive WaveRunner Series, so they probably decided to increase the distance by placing the new WaveSurfer a bit under the older models (i.e. closed embedded OS instead of full Windows platform, limited decode options, max bandwidth 500MHz instead of 1GHz, much lower price).

But the 1GHz variant doesn't make much sense from a technical point of view either, as probably most customers requiring that bandwidth also need much faster processing, more sample rate and more sample memory. And more advanced software.

But it really does make sense, as in the past there wasn't interesting stuff below the WaveSurfer Series (there was  the WaveJet 300A which was built by Iwatsu, a good scope alsthough a very old design and no longer competitive, and below that the WaveAce Series; both vastly overpriced). Now LeCroy has a solid offering in the range of the Agilent DSO-X3000, which is great.

BTW: completely unnoticed, it seems they also replaced the old WaveJet 300A Series with a new WaveJet Touch:
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=469

All they should do now is getting rid of the shoddy WaveAce scopes.

[Hydrawerk]

As expected, LeCroy Wavejet Touch is a rebadged DS-5600 Iwatsu scope from Japan.
http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.html
I wonder what the waveform update rate is. And it is weird to have a 500MHz scope  with only 1GSa/s per each channel. Come on, it iy 2014 year now. 
The 640×480 VGA display is also rather poor. It should be wide screen, as is common on many tektronix and Agilent scopes nowadays.

[coppice]

I'm pretty sure the price is for the 2Ch 100MHz variant (SDS3102). Even Siglent can't offer a 500MHz 4Ch scope with these specs for that price, especially not when they have to license the software.

And $3400 for the 100MHz variant isn't really cheap when the 2Ch 200MHz LeCroy version is in the same ballpark. In black, and with LeCroy's support behind.

Why guess? Just go to TaoBao and you can see the prices being offered for these scopes in China. The 500M 4 channel seems is listed at about 65k RMB. I don't know what negotiation might do to that price.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Why guess? Just go to TaoBao and you can see the prices being offered for these scopes in China. The 500M 4 channel seems is listed at about 65k RMB. I don't know what negotiation might do to that price.

Just checked and the SDS3052 (500MHz 2Ch) is listed for ¥51480.00 which Google says is $8383. Digikey lists the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3054 (500MHz 4Ch) for $6949.

I don't think there's any money to save by importing the Siglent versions.

[Mark_O]

I don't think there's any money to save by importing the Siglent versions.

I agree.  I checked a couple other SDS3000 models on taobao as well (3024 and 3034), and they were both significantly more expensive than the LeCroy MSRPs.  (over $1,000 more.)

[Wuerstchenhund]

As expected, LeCroy Wavejet Touch is a rebadged DS-5600 Iwatsu scope from Japan.
http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.html
I wonder what the waveform update rate is. And it is weird to have a 500MHz scope  with only 1GSa/s per each channel. Come on, it iy 2014 year now. 
The 640×480 VGA display is also rather poor. It should be wide screen, as is common on many tektronix and Agilent scopes nowadays.

Yes, the specs are rather poor for a 2014 scope. It seems its the same hardware behind as the original WaveJet 300 from 2007, just with upgraded sample memory and touch interface.

Iwatsu makes great scopes but I don't think that this scope is going to cut it against the competition. Especially when Mouser lists the 350MHz model at $4514 and the 500MHz model at $5374.

[tautech]

Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.

Nothing has changed that I am aware of re SDS3000 series for western markets.
LeCroy has an agreement with Siglent for western markets AFAIK.

I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales

Exactly what I have asked Siglent.

The Chinese market will be more profitable per unit than sales to LeCroy so we may well see some units "migrate" to the west.

There are I believe new top end ( for Siglent) models in development, but how far advanced and close to release, I am not sure.
Hopefully I will get a glimpse at these when I visit Siglent next month.

Well I got more than a glimpse, had quite a fiddle with one on display connected to a large flatscreen at the entrance to Siglent reception.

The front panel controls were all labeled in English but the UI was in Chinese.
No problem I thought, I'll just change the language setting to English to explore this scope further.
Asked for assistance from my ever-helpful Siglent Sales manager but alas there was ONLY a Chinese language setting in the menu.

So if you want a SDS3000 and need other than Chinese language, getting the Lecroy might be advisable.(did I say that  )
Or maybe the Lecroy firmware.

Had a great day at Siglent, great to put faces to the emails.
Thanks Siglent. 

[Mark_O]

Thanks for the photo, and the humorous anecdote.  But where are the shots of the R&D lab?      

I'm glad they had the unit there on the box, for ready access to the touchscreen.  If the big screen was used to control it, only folks like Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem would be able to hit the Menu items.    

(He dribbles to System, drives down court to Utility, pivots on Memory... he shoots... he Stores!   O0)

[Siglent]

welcome to visit Siglent!

[Hydrawerk]

I saw the LeCroy Wavesurfer 3000 and it looks like a typical LeCroy scope. Full of many stuff. But the waveform generator is limited. There is probably no modulation available.