EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: rf-loop on May 26, 2014, 08:18:59 am
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Siglent have developed new series of oscilloscopes. These are Siglents top models.
On the paper it looks very interesting.
SDS3000 series have 2 and 4 channels models for 100MHz up to 1GHz range.
Sampling speed is max 4GSa/s in 200, 350, 500MHz and 1GHz models. 100MHz models have max 2GSa/s as in SDS2000 series all models)
Waveform update rate up to 250kwfms/s
It is normal and mixed signal oscilloscope.
It have 10,1" 1024x600 TFT (also interface for external monitor)
10Mpoints/channel memory
Of course in this class it is natural it have lot of advanced trigger and acquire features.
Option: Internal function generator (AWG) 125MSa/s 16kpoints. (output bacside)
Option: MSO 16 channel, 500MSa/s memory 10M
Option: Decoder for IIC, SPI LIN, CAN etc.
Attached front picture of SDS3054
note small text left bottom of display
"Siglent Powered by Teledyne Lecroy"
(bad joke in professionals coffee break: in future they may change it for Teledyne Lecroy powered by Siglent. Worls is changing.)
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This new Siglent scope is very similar to HDO4000 series. It is funny.
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This new Siglent scope is very similar to HDO4000 series. It is funny.
As I told:
bottom of Siglent TFT screen read: Siglent Powered by Teledyne Lecroy.
(it can read using some artist freedoms: "Siglent Teledyne LeCroy")
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So what? Does Siglent use some older LeCroy ASICs or something?
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So what? Does Siglent use some older LeCroy ASICs or something?
Kindly.
Your question reflects your thoughts.
I will not become a guessing game. I will not speculate referred to by circumstance.
I pointed out just what the bottom of the screen reads. Since it is a bit of a new phenomenon.
Secondly, HDO4000 series is almost completely different device. Although the external convergence is. This in turn does not conflict with anything. Especially when you consider the text at the bottom of the screen which, at least for me is the first time when the product bears the name of Siglent.
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Is there a price yet? Otherwise there's really no way of comparing.
Given it's 1GHz max bandwidth, do I assume that 4GSa/s is per channel?
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Is there a price yet? Otherwise there's really no way of comparing.
Given it's 1GHz max bandwidth, do I assume that 4GSa/s is per channel?
Not yet overseas price.
But if look domestic price it give something for thinking.
SDS2000 series starting around CNY6000 and SDS3000 starting around CNY 20000.
I do not believe simultaneous 4GSa/s for all channels.
This is what I think after read chinese datasheet etc.
It is organized so that 2 channel group have 4GSa/s (for single channel in use in two channel group 4GSa/s and for both channels in use 2GSa/s per channel. In 4 channel model there is 2 x 2channel group.
(in 100 MHz model 2GSa/s arranged as in SDS2000)
If this is true then 4 channel model can use with 2 channel so that both have 4GSa/s.
Of course real time work need least 4GSa/s for 1GHz BW.
For repetitive signals this is not at all problem when use repetitive sampling.
So, it is not fully 1GHz real time oscilloscope if all available channels are used simultaneously.
Analog channel before ADC is designed for 1GHz BW. Risetime better or equal 350ps.
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These look very nice,but expensive!!!!!, to the real world I have just been bought a Siglent SDS-1102-CNL 100Mhz
1GB sampling, I am absolutely totally happy with it, as mainly a hobbyist, it does me fine compared to my 10Mhz CRO,plus it's helping me in repairing a servicing which something I seem to have fallen into, and really enjoying. The SDSD 3000 series are without any doubt on a different universe to mine, but if I could afford one,which I can't ,would it really make much difference to my level of electronics!!!!!.
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So what? Does Siglent use some older LeCroy ASICs or something?
Siglents builds these scopes and sells a rebranded version to Lecroy. All of Lecroy's 'low end' range equipment is made by Siglent.
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So that DS6000 series from Rigol is still unbeaten. http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds6000/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds6000/) And It was introduced in 8/2011.
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Siglent have developed new series of oscilloscopes.
Assuming the picture is genuine, I'm not sure that this is really a Siglent development...
note small text left bottom of display
"Siglent Powered by Teledyne Lecroy"
...because based on the picture this would suggest this scope uses LeCroy's proprietary XStream technology and software. It would also mean that this scope is likely to run Windows (as XStream software is based on Windows), with a complete PC inside the scope, which will make it very expensive (and I'm not sure many will spend that much on a Siglent scope).
And even if it is a XStream scope, the question will be if it does have all the capabilities of a LeCroy XStream scope, and will the advanced options be available for it as well.
Edit: I did a search and found Siglent's spec sheet for that scope (in Chinese):
http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/CN/SDS3000_dataSheet_CN.pdf (http://www.siglent.com/DataSheet/CN/SDS3000_dataSheet_CN.pdf)
It talks about USB Host and device ports (XStream scopes don't do USB device mode), however the pictures do look like a XStream scope, although the screen images lack the Aero effect that can be seen on current LeCroy scopes like the HDO4000 series.
The scope also seem to have ProBus probe interfaces.
Very strange.
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I like the back panel, but why is there a D-SUB instead of DVI? Come on, it is 2014. My old 17" LG monitor from 2006 has a DVI video input.
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Siglent have developed new series of oscilloscopes.
SDS3000 series have 2 and 4 channels models for 100MHz up to 1GHz range.
OK, the series starts out @ 2CH 100MHz
SDS3000 starting around CNY 20000.
I take that to mean for about 3200.00 US$ for a 100MHz 2CH Scope... Not very competitive at all...
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Apparently it will only be available to Western markets as a LeCroy.
I am not sure that this is a good thing, but I do have a vested interest. >:D
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:palm: Oh, poor LeCroy.
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Bringing more competition to the market. Always a good thing. This is an interesting scope, as it is Siglent's move to push into the mid range of scope markets up to 1GHz. Very interesting to see how this scope performs.
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Siglent's move to push into the mid range of scope markets up to 1GHz.
But what about probes? I wonder what the 1GHz model comes with and at what price?
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I like the back panel, but why is there a D-SUB instead of DVI? Come on, it is 2014. My old 17" LG monitor from 2006 has a DVI video input.
why ask for DVI then? displayport is the "display"-oriented standard.
(HDMI is the consumer all-in-one cable, so don't even dare!)
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Siglent's move to push into the mid range of scope markets up to 1GHz.
But what about probes? I wonder what the 1GHz model comes with and at what price?
As we can quess scope probe connection is compatible with LeCroy ProBus.
I do not have any knowledge what probes they include with 1GHz model.
But If take some things together "Powered by Teledyne LeCroy"
Scope front image where can see ProBus looks like interface for probe.
BW 1GHz.
With these in mind looking what is Teledyne LeCroy solution for this.
Good probe for this is example ZS1500 from Teledyne Lecroy.
ZS1500
1.5 GHz, 1 M?, 0.9 pF Active Probe
The ZS1500 is ideal for 1 GHz and lower oscilloscopes.
This probe separate purchased fron Farnell in Finland. ( http://fi.farnell.com/lecroy/zs1500/probe-active-1-5ghz/dp/1272493?Ntt=ZS1500 (http://fi.farnell.com/lecroy/zs1500/probe-active-1-5ghz/dp/1272493?Ntt=ZS1500) )
One single probe: 1 860,00 € (0% VAT)
Including VAT 2 306,40 €
It DO NOT mean that with this Siglent is exactly this probe! This was just only for imagine that this class of probes are not cheap.
I think over 500MHz it is difficult to think that scope is equipped only with passive probes.
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According to someone in the LeCroy Yahoo group this scope is supposed to replace the LeCroy WaveSurfer Series. It seems to run Windows CE (like the Agilent DSO-X) so it's not a fully fledged PC. The XStream software is also cut down and seem to lack most of the options available for current LeCroy XStream scopes.
Apparently LeCroy is now working with Siglent in a similar way they have been with Iwatsu, i..e Lecroy provides software and Siglent provides the hardware design. Although it is certainly a good thing if Siglent doesn't do the software (something which they are terrible at) on that thing, but I'm not sure that Siglent can provide the appropriate quality for such products. The Iwatsu-made LeCroys like the WaveSurfer weren't cheap but they were high quality scopes with loads of processing power, advanced software and the capability to install MathLab, LabView or any other Windows software directly onto the scope. This is now supposed to be replaced by a scope running some embedded OS and a stripped down variant of the XStream software on a low power platform.
The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.
I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales (Siglent support is worse than LeCroys which is important but if the LeCroy variant is costing almost 3x as much then you can buy two Siglent scopes and still save a lot of money).
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I think over 500MHz it is difficult to think that scope is equipped only with passive probes.
Not a problem at all as long as the scope has 50 Ohm inputs. Some passive divider HF probes go to several GHz.
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I think over 500MHz it is difficult to think that scope is equipped only with passive probes.
Not a problem at all as long as the scope has 50 Ohm inputs. Some passive divider HF probes go to several GHz.
Of course. All can do, also sell scopes without any probes or passive probes or what ever. What is wise, I do not know. Keysight may know better.
And even to 1M input as Tektronix TPP1000
But also these are not cheap and input capacitance is quite high for 1GHz (around 4pF tip)
And more if look 50ohm passive probes (example http://www.ggb.com/10.html (http://www.ggb.com/10.html) ) or even diy probes what we did tens of years ago (in military exercise workshop just for rest time fun and playing)
Of course <1pF is different as 4pF and so on. 4pF cap reactance with 1GHz freq is around 40 ohm.
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I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales
Exactly what I have asked Siglent.
The Chinese market will be more profitable per unit than sales to LeCroy so we may well see some units "migrate" to the west.
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I found some hi-res photos. http://www.siglent.com/cn/product/detail.aspx?id=100000012056253&nodecode=105008001 (http://www.siglent.com/cn/product/detail.aspx?id=100000012056253&nodecode=105008001)
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The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.
Except the cost of a 2-channel, 200 MHz LeCroy version (WaveSurfer 3022) is only $3,200 USD, not $8k. Perhaps that price guess for the SDS3102 was too high?
I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales (Siglent support is worse than LeCroys which is important but if the LeCroy variant is costing almost 3x as much then you can buy two Siglent scopes and still save a lot of money).
The differential isn't what you projected. Still, it's surprising (and unfortunate) that the LeCroy version does not support some protocols (like CAN and LIN), that the Siglent version does. And Siglent offers a lower-priced 100 MHz option, which LeCroy bypassed.
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Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.
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The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.
Except the cost of a 2-channel, 200 MHz LeCroy version (WaveSurfer 3022) is only $3,200 USD, not $8k. Perhaps that price guess for the SDS3102 was too high?
No shit, Sherlock? But you *are* aware that I wrote that was four months ago when the LeCroy variant wasn't even announced, right??? :palm:
Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope. Siglent has already proven that they can produce quality hardware.
The positioning as WaveSurfer is still a bit odd, but I guess they wanted to re-position the WaveSurfer a little bit further below the WaveRunner to avoid cannibalization.
Still, it's surprising (and unfortunate) that the LeCroy version does not support some protocols (like CAN and LIN), that the Siglent version does. And Siglent offers a lower-priced 100 MHz option, which LeCroy bypassed.
I'm sure if the Siglent version supports it then the LeCroy version will, too, as LeCroy seems to be the one who develops the software not Siglent. But yeah, the decoding capabilities are a bit thin (I'm missing stuff like ARINC429/MIL-Std 1553 which was supported by the preceeding WaveSurfer models (and which Agilent offers for the DSO-X3000 Series, which is what the WaveSurfer 3000 competes with).
I can also see why LeCroy doesn't offer the 100MHz version as it doesn't make much sense (it wouldn't be much cheaper than the 200MHz version, and who would buy an advanced scope with only 100MHz bandwidth anyways?).
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Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.
I don't think they will be available outside, I bet that the licensing agreement with LeCroy (after all, Siglent is using their technology) will prevent them from being sold outside China and maybe some other Asian countries.
Considering the functionaliy these scopes offer, and the surprisingly reasonable price for the LeCroy variant, I'm not sure there would be any dramatic savings when going with the Siglent version.
And (most important): the LeCroy variant is in black!!!
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The current WaveSurfer starts at $11k for the 4Ch 200MHz variant. Based on the price difference between a WaveAce and the original Siglent scope, my guess would be that (assuming the price of roughly $3200 is for the Siglent SDS3102 2Ch 100MHz is correct) the LeCroy variant of that scope will probaby go for roughly $8k (based on the way they upsell their Siglent-made WaveAce/WaveStation). This would mean that the 4Ch 200MHz variant will probably be close to what the current WaveSufer costs, and this IMHO is excessive for a scope like the SDS3000.
Except the cost of a 2-channel, 200 MHz LeCroy version (WaveSurfer 3022) is only $3,200 USD, not $8k. Perhaps that price guess for the SDS3102 was too high?
No shit, Sherlock? But you *are* aware that I wrote that was four months ago when the LeCroy variant wasn't even announced, right??? :palm:
:-// I don't understand the animosity in your response. I wasn't criticizing you in any way for an old price estimate. Just letting folks know the actual price turned out to be significantly more reasonable. What side of the bed did you get up from this morning? ;)
Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope.
You're very welcome. And I agree.
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Considering the functionaliy these scopes offer, and the surprisingly reasonable price for the LeCroy variant, I'm not sure there would be any dramatic savings when going with the Siglent version.
Though it may not be dramatic, it might still not be insignificant. I didn't have access to the pricing info for the SDS3000 you were using way back when, but I do recall seeing somewhere on their site since then a banner with about 21,000 Yuan Renminbi ($3,400) listed. And I was unsure if that applied to the 4-channel, 500 MHz (?) version they were showing, or the base-model (I can't read Chinese). If the former, that's equivalent to the WaveSurfer 3054, at almost 7-grand.
Also of some interest, though Siglent was touting reaching the 1 GHz BW milestone, LeCroy offers nothing beyond 500 MHz. [Probably because that starts to encroach on their higher-priced models.]
And (most important): the LeCroy variant is in black!!!
Cool! :-+
Ah, I found it. Perhaps one of our members who isn't so woefully lacking in language skills as I can shed some light...
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/24014768/sds3000%20banner.jpg)
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:-// I don't understand the animosity in your response. I wasn't criticizing you in any way for an old price estimate. Just letting folks know the actual price turned out to be significantly more reasonable. What side of the bed did you get up from this morning? ;)
No anymosity. I just find asking if a guess which was made a long time ago was wrong after the facts a bit pointless. But nevermind.
Although I agree that the pricing is a pleasant surprise. It seems that LeCroy learnt their lesson from the WaveAce. For that price it certainly looks like a very nice scope.
You're very welcome. And I agree.
So let's get to the important bit: who's going to get one and do a review? ;)
(Which reminds me: didn't LeCroy want to send Dave some scopes for review a long while ago? I guess it didn't happen.)
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Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.
Nothing has changed that I am aware of re SDS3000 series for western markets.
LeCroy has an agreement with Siglent for western markets AFAIK.
I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales
Exactly what I have asked Siglent.
The Chinese market will be more profitable per unit than sales to LeCroy so we may well see some units "migrate" to the west.
There are I believe new top end ( for Siglent) models in development, but how far advanced and close to release, I am not sure.
Hopefully I will get a glimpse at these when I visit Siglent next month.
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Though it may not be dramatic, it might still not be insignificant. I didn't have access to the pricing info for the SDS3000 you were using way back when, but I do recall seeing somewhere on their site since then a banner with about 21,000 Yuan Renminbi ($3,400) listed. And I was unsure if that applied to the 4-channel, 500 MHz (?) version they were showing, or the base-model (I can't read Chinese). If the former, that's equivalent to the WaveSurfer 3054, at almost 7-grand.
I'm pretty sure the price is for the 2Ch 100MHz variant (SDS3102). Even Siglent can't offer a 500MHz 4Ch scope with these specs for that price, especially not when they have to license the software.
And $3400 for the 100MHz variant isn't really cheap when the 2Ch 200MHz LeCroy version is in the same ballpark. In black, and with LeCroy's support behind.
Also of some interest, though Siglent was touting reaching the 1 GHz BW milestone, LeCroy offers nothing beyond 500 MHz. [Probably because that starts to encroach on their higher-priced models.]
Most certainly. I guess the previous WaveSurfer models were a bit too close to the more expensive WaveRunner Series, so they probably decided to increase the distance by placing the new WaveSurfer a bit under the older models (i.e. closed embedded OS instead of full Windows platform, limited decode options, max bandwidth 500MHz instead of 1GHz, much lower price).
But the 1GHz variant doesn't make much sense from a technical point of view either, as probably most customers requiring that bandwidth also need much faster processing, more sample rate and more sample memory. And more advanced software.
But it really does make sense, as in the past there wasn't interesting stuff below the WaveSurfer Series (there was the WaveJet 300A which was built by Iwatsu, a good scope alsthough a very old design and no longer competitive, and below that the WaveAce Series; both vastly overpriced). Now LeCroy has a solid offering in the range of the Agilent DSO-X3000, which is great.
BTW: completely unnoticed, it seems they also replaced the old WaveJet 300A Series with a new WaveJet Touch:
http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=469 (http://teledynelecroy.com/oscilloscope/oscilloscopeseries.aspx?mseries=469)
All they should do now is getting rid of the shoddy WaveAce scopes.
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As expected, LeCroy Wavejet Touch is a rebadged DS-5600 Iwatsu scope from Japan.
http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.html (http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.html)
I wonder what the waveform update rate is. And it is weird to have a 500MHz scope with only 1GSa/s per each channel. Come on, it iy 2014 year now.
The 640×480 VGA display is also rather poor. It should be wide screen, as is common on many tektronix and Agilent scopes nowadays.
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I'm pretty sure the price is for the 2Ch 100MHz variant (SDS3102). Even Siglent can't offer a 500MHz 4Ch scope with these specs for that price, especially not when they have to license the software.
And $3400 for the 100MHz variant isn't really cheap when the 2Ch 200MHz LeCroy version is in the same ballpark. In black, and with LeCroy's support behind.
Why guess? Just go to TaoBao and you can see the prices being offered for these scopes in China. The 500M 4 channel seems is listed at about 65k RMB. I don't know what negotiation might do to that price.
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Why guess? Just go to TaoBao and you can see the prices being offered for these scopes in China. The 500M 4 channel seems is listed at about 65k RMB. I don't know what negotiation might do to that price.
Just checked and the SDS3052 (500MHz 2Ch) is listed for ¥51480.00 which Google says is $8383. Digikey lists the LeCroy WaveSurfer 3054 (500MHz 4Ch) for $6949.
I don't think there's any money to save by importing the Siglent versions.
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I don't think there's any money to save by importing the Siglent versions.
I agree. I checked a couple other SDS3000 models on taobao as well (3024 and 3034), and they were both significantly more expensive than the LeCroy MSRPs. (over $1,000 more.)
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As expected, LeCroy Wavejet Touch is a rebadged DS-5600 Iwatsu scope from Japan.
http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.html (http://www.iti.iwatsu.co.jp/en/products/ds/ds5600/ds5600_top_e.html)
I wonder what the waveform update rate is. And it is weird to have a 500MHz scope with only 1GSa/s per each channel. Come on, it iy 2014 year now.
The 640×480 VGA display is also rather poor. It should be wide screen, as is common on many tektronix and Agilent scopes nowadays.
Yes, the specs are rather poor for a 2014 scope. It seems its the same hardware behind as the original WaveJet 300 from 2007, just with upgraded sample memory and touch interface.
Iwatsu makes great scopes but I don't think that this scope is going to cut it against the competition. Especially when Mouser lists the 350MHz model at $4514 and the 500MHz model at $5374.
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Oddly enough the SDS3000 series is not mentioned on the English version of Siglent's website. Maybe Tautech or RF-loop can elaborate on the availability of these scopes outside China.
Nothing has changed that I am aware of re SDS3000 series for western markets.
LeCroy has an agreement with Siglent for western markets AFAIK.
I also wonder how LeCroy will prevent the Siglent variant (which is supposed to be sold in China only) to find its way to Europe and the US, which means lost sales
Exactly what I have asked Siglent.
The Chinese market will be more profitable per unit than sales to LeCroy so we may well see some units "migrate" to the west.
There are I believe new top end ( for Siglent) models in development, but how far advanced and close to release, I am not sure.
Hopefully I will get a glimpse at these when I visit Siglent next month.
Well I got more than a glimpse, had quite a fiddle with one on display connected to a large flatscreen at the entrance to Siglent reception.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent's-new-products-sds3000-series-oscilloscopes/?action=dlattach;attach=120901)
The front panel controls were all labeled in English but the UI was in Chinese.
No problem I thought, I'll just change the language setting to English to explore this scope further.
Asked for assistance from my ever-helpful Siglent Sales manager but alas there was ONLY a Chinese language setting in the menu.
So if you want a SDS3000 and need other than Chinese language, getting the Lecroy might be advisable.(did I say that :palm:)
Or maybe the Lecroy firmware.
Had a great day at Siglent, great to put faces to the emails.
Thanks Siglent. :-+
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Thanks for the photo, and the humorous anecdote. But where are the shots of the R&D lab? :-// :-DD
I'm glad they had the unit there on the box, for ready access to the touchscreen. If the big screen was used to control it, only folks like Wilt Chamberlain, or Kareem would be able to hit the Menu items. :D
(He dribbles to System, drives down court to Utility, pivots on Memory... he shoots... he Stores! O0)
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welcome to visit Siglent! :clap:
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I saw the LeCroy Wavesurfer 3000 and it looks like a typical LeCroy scope. Full of many stuff. But the waveform generator is limited. There is probably no modulation available.