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| Sniffing the Rigol's internal I2C bus |
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| Mark_O:
--- Quote from: Gallymimus on January 02, 2014, 05:53:47 am --- --- Quote from: Mark_O on January 02, 2014, 05:35:20 am ---That's great news. Perhaps they can manage to kill off their sales to hobbyists and students. :-DD It would be nice though if they spent that priority manpower in fixing bugs in their units, first. Rather than letting them languish for half a year or more without being addressed. --- End quote --- Really, you think they should not worry about people stealing their products? --- End quote --- Hmm. I can't see where you got that, from what I wrote? I'd really appreciate it if you wouldn't put words in my mouth. And I wasn't aware anyone was "stealing" their products! :o AFAIK, everyone here was buying their Rigol's. :-// Was there a "back of the truck sale" I missed out on? Presumably you wouldn't consider upgrading the software on a Rigol stealing, since you did so on both your DS1052E and DS1074Z, right? --- Quote ---Rigol is a business, they have to make some money. --- End quote --- I'm quite sure they're making money. Let me ask you this, since you were so incensed by my comment... if someone buys a DS2072A and never upgrades the memory capacity option, who's being robbed? They've already paid for the additional 28 MB of memory, because it's installed in every unit, whether it's ever turned on or not. But for "only" 40% of the cost of their entire scope, they can enable the memory that's already been paid for. ??? Certainly seems both fair and logical to me. ::) --- Quote ---I'm a big fan of altering the function of hardware myself but... --- End quote --- but, but, but... --- Quote ---...to act like Rigol should embrace theft because it increases volume on their lowest margin sales and to justify this behavior kinda irritates me. :palm:. --- End quote --- Yes, I can see that. :) Especially when no one here has been advocating theft. Look, as marmad has said here, more than once, Rigol isn't particularly happy about this, and has taken steps in the past to rectify it, and will take more steps in the future. They have a perfect right to do so (i.e., to try to stop hacking). However, my comment was simply that it's obvious they have limited manpower available. Otherwise they'd be fixing and improving the software much more quickly than they've ever demonstrated an ability to do so, in all the years they've been in business. And I questioned whether that's the best use of those limited resources. IMO, it's not, but in their opinion, it is. That's fine. The primary (if not exclusive) impact of locking things down will be reduced sales to folks that have very limited funds to start with. Meaning hobbyists, beginners, students, etc. Do you really think that pro's (spending company funds) and engineering firms with $$$ resources are buying Rigol's for cheap and unlocking features w/o paying for them? I don't. If they need a 300 MHz scope, they buy one. Not buy a 70 MHz-rated one, and cross their fingers it will work at 300. That would be foolish indeed. But the result of having a pool of hobbyists [or even pro's, with limited funds for a home lab] with access to the technology, and experience with Rigols, will mean that if they're in a position to recommend something, it's that much more likely to be something they're familiar with. Like... a Rigol. Or if they bring their Rigol into work one day, or to a client site, Rigol gets exposure they would not have otherwise. And as a result, increased sales. So in a very real sense, Rigol could consider these hobbyist sales as "seeds" being planted. That will bear enhanced fruit later. And as low-cost promotion and 'advertising' for their brand. Obviously, these are not important factors to them (or they simply have failed to recognize the potential benefits), and again, that's fine. I never said, "How dare you?" or "Curse you, Red Baron!" Or shook my fist at the sky. :rant: --- Quote ---Don't get me wrong. I read this thread every day (and have read every message in every page), and love the work, ingenuity and features that have been unlocked. --- End quote --- And that you've personally benefited from. Yes, I'll try very hard not to get you wrong. ;) |
| marmad:
--- Quote from: Mark_O on January 02, 2014, 07:59:40 am ---The primary (if not exclusive) impact of locking things down will be reduced sales to folks that have very limited funds to start with. Meaning hobbyists, beginners, students, etc. Do you really think that pro's (spending company funds) and engineering firms with $$$ resources are buying Rigol's for cheap and unlocking features w/o paying for them? I don't. If they need a 300 MHz scope, they buy one. Not buy a 70 MHz-rated one, and cross their fingers it will work at 300. That would be foolish indeed. But the result of having a pool of hobbyists [or even pro's, with limited funds for a home lab] with access to the technology, and experience with Rigols, will mean that if they're in a position to recommend something, it's that much more likely to be something they're familiar with. Like... a Rigol. Or if they bring their Rigol into work one day, or to a client site, Rigol gets exposure they would not have otherwise. And as a result, increased sales. So in a very real sense, Rigol could consider these hobbyist sales as "seeds" being planted. That will bear enhanced fruit later. And as low-cost promotion and 'advertising' for their brand. --- End quote --- It wouldn't surprise me if a discussion similar to the one we have here happens between some people in the upper echelons at Rigol. They must consider, at least to some degree, the pros and cons of fighting the hacks. But when hacks are easy and foolproof (like keygens) and begin to get widely published - even owners that would normally buy extra options over time don't. If you spent $2800 or more for one of the DS4000s, you very well might have spent more money later on for one or more of the options - but with a online keygen available, it's not as likely. I'm afraid, from Rigol's point of view, this has gotten out of hand - spreading between the product lines - and they have to at least make an effort to fight it. |
| Mark_O:
--- Quote from: marmad on January 02, 2014, 08:30:45 am ---It wouldn't surprise me if a discussion similar to the one we have here happens between some people in the upper echelons at Rigol. They must consider, at least to some degree, the pros and cons of fighting the hacks. But when hacks are easy and foolproof (like keygens) and begin to get widely published - even owners that would normally buy extra options over time don't. If you spent $2800 or more for one of the DS4000s, you very well might have spent more money later on for one or more of the options - but with a online keygen available, it's not as likely. I'm afraid, from Rigol's point of view, this has gotten out of hand - spreading between the product lines - and they have to at least make an effort to fight it. --- End quote --- Good points, and I have to agree with all of them. I knew (but hadn't given much thought to), the fact that their keygen's are now cross-product lines. Scopes, wave gens, power supplies, spectrum analyzers... So the impact is much larger. Sales of Options may well be down, across the board. And their Resellers are likely crying to them, because they love making hundreds of $$$ profit selling pieces of paper with numbers on them. Nothing to inventory, nothing to ship. Just rake in the cash. And your example of the DS4000 owner (with a large initial investment), deferring purchase of some useful options until later, then not doing so because of the publicized hacks, was very apropo. I could definitely see that happening. So, yes, you're right. [Sorry. Gotta run. Need to get that DS4014 ordered right away. 8)] |
| sync:
--- Quote from: Mark_O on January 02, 2014, 05:35:20 am ---That's great news. Perhaps they can manage to kill off their sales to hobbyists and students. --- End quote --- And what scopes do they buy instead? |
| Rigby:
Rigol can't afford to ignore the hacks, but they would be wise to view them as an opportunity rather than an attack. Many of us purchased Rigol equipment solely or primarily because we could hack them. As stated, once this becomes too easy, a line is crossed: even those that can afford the high-end options will stop paying for them, favoring the hacks. That is the point where Rigol will really care, as real money starts getting lost. (Let's assume for a moment that no hobbyist at all will ever buy a high-end scope.) It would be very wise for us if we did not bite the hand that feeds us by making the hacks too easy to use. There needs to be a minimum amount of skill required to accomplish the hacks. I don't know what this skill level should be, but making web apps capable of providing valid keys by providing a serial number and a four character option code is definitely something that I would consider "biting the hand that feeds us." |
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