Software setup/Mainboard change for Agilent 16900A/16902A/16903A logic analyzer

[Calhoon]

Hello, friends.
Help me please.
I have no experience working with this equipment.
I have Agilent 16802A with 4Mb.
I want to upgrade it to 32Mb?
The instructions say that I need a license key. Where can I find him?
Are there any other ways?

[ingowien]

Hi, the 16802A is just the chassis, you need to know which cards you're using.
If it's a 1695x or 1695x, you're probably stuck with the 4MB. The memory size is defined by eeprom content and may be checksum protected. Agilent/Keysight doesn't sell upgrades any more (I've asked them, they refuse) and I don't know of any hack. If you find one, please post here.

You can check this thread, especially reply #23 comments on 169xx cards:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hpagilent-1675x-logic-analyzer-card-memory-up-hack/msg1394202/#msg1394202

[gslick]

The original 16800A series logic analyzers had eight models:

16801A 34 logic analyzer channels, single slot
16802A 68 logic analyzer channels, single slot
16803A 102 logic analyzer channels, single slot
16804A 136 logic analyzer channels, dual slot
16806A 204 logic analyzer channels, dual slot
16821A 34 logic analyzer channels, 48 pattern generator channels, dual slot
16822A 68 logic analyzer channels, 48 pattern generator channels, dual slot
16823A 102 logic analyzer channels, 48 pattern generator channels, dual slot

The 34, 68, and 136 logic analyzer channel models used either one or two 16911A equivalent modules.

The 102 and 204 logic analyzer channel models used either one or two 16910A equivalent modules.

The 48 pattern generator channel models used a 16720A equivalent module.

The mainframes were equivalent to the two slot 16901A mainframe, except that the single slot 16800A models were cost reduced with lower capacity power supplies and a single module slot backplane. As far as I know a two slot 16800A mainframe is identical to a 16901A, except for mainframe ID information stored somewhere that the analyzer software can use to determine the mainframe type.

Also as far as I know the 16910A, 16911A, and 16720A equivalent modules used by the 16800A series are identical with normal 16910A, 16911A, and 16720A modules except for ID information stored somewhere that the analyzer software can use to determine the 16800 series specific module type.

I have never had a 16800A series logic analyzer myself to experiment with. As far as I know the ID information in the 16800A series mainframes and modules is used to lock the series so that logic analyzer and pattern generator modules cannot be interchanged between the 16800A series and the 16900A series. The logic analyzer software does not recognize modules swapped between the two series (again, I haven't verified that myself). That was probably just a marketing decision so that if you wanted complete flexibility in that form factor you would have to buy a 16901A mainframe at some price premium over a similarly configured 16800A series mainframe.

So anyway, back to the original question about upgrading a 68 channel 16802A with 4M sample depth, the analyzer module is equivalent to a 16911A. Those have 1M, 4M, 16M and 32M sample depth options, and 250 MHz and 500 MHz state options, and they are upgraded with a software license mechanism. When the upgrade license is installed on the module it must change something in non-volatile memory somewhere on the module. I am not aware of anyone yet who has successfully reverse engineered the 16910A / 16911A module option mechanism, so no one here can help you unless someone comes forward with new information about this.

If the 16800A series mainframes and modules weren't ID locked, one option would be to swap the analyzer module with a 32M sample depth 16752A or 16752B module. That would work on a 16900A series mainframe, but as far as I know would be prevented from working on a 16800A series mainframe. If that is incorrect, I would be happy to be corrected by someone who has tried it and found that it actually works.

[charlyd]

last weekend i finished my 16903A project it is working with the gigabyte GA-EQ45M-S2 board /3.3Ghz i installed Windows XP and i got everything working on software version 5.60.
All credits go to ingowien for doing lots of different OS research on these units.

It would be nice if someone would put some effort in try to get version 5.90 hacked and bypass the frame ID, so it would work on not agilent boards. Then we have the latest version for these unit on the market working ;-)

Win7 embedded is also something i still want to try, but i think i will end up with the current XP version on this fast Board.
here is a picture from the current mobo intalled and working like a charm.

[tim292stro]

For clarity, the theory is that 16903A runs with "any" micro-ATX motherboard with PCI up to version 5.80?

[ingowien]

I've not found restrictions, yet. But I've only tested three or four motherboards. So it would be an optimistic theory.
- I've not seen problems with more modern CPUs. C2D, Ci3-3000 Ci5-4000 worked. At least C2D was officially provided by Agilent.
- I've not seen problems with Hyper-Threading or Multi-Cores.
- I only tested 32bit W2k, XP and Win7. Not sure about x64.
- It might be required to have a PCI slot in the right position (not necessarily for the 16903 but for the 16900 and 16902).
- The CPU heatsink has to be small enough to fit under the card cage.
As I learned from the post from gslick, the BIOS locking might have been introduced for the 16800 series to restrict usage of cards there.

[tim292stro]

Interesting.

I did see in the release notes that 5.9 seems to want a 64-bit OS due to wanting >4GB of RAM, and definitely anything after 6.0 requires a 64-bit OS in the notes.

I picked up a DOA 16903A from eplace for $100, and I want to see about resurrecting it.  I suspect a PSU as it's totally dead and I found a reseller on that same site liquidating service stock for $50/each+shipping - if it doesn't work when I'm done then I'm only out the equivalent of three tanks of gas in California.  I have the ability to dump a BIOS ROM and take a peek at what's in there - while I have it apart I'll do that, bearing in mind that without proof 5.9 works on this motherboard there are no guarantees.

I'd consider doing something a bit more "modern" than the older 755 socket motherboards if CPU and chipset is not a gating factor - something like an IMB-C2060 which supports an E3 Xeon and ECC-REG memory - but still has the PCI slot for the front-end (not sure if it needs to be slot 3 or 4 which is PCI).

First step will be to see if I can get it to run with as much of the existing hardware as possible, but then I'll see about swapping out for something newer/more-performant - and then maybe see if I can do some Linux/WINE...  Also of potential interest, I found that there is a 12.3" touchscreen on the market for about $150 USD with decent resolution which can be de-packaged and tucked inside - I just need to dig into how deeply tied into the front-end the touch screen is (I don't mind abandoning existing hardware in place as long as it doesn't cripple the unit).

[ingowien]

v5.90 definitely runs on x32. The release notes say: "Version 5.90 of the Agilent Logic and Protocol Analyzer software is a 32-bit application and therefore it is supported for use with 32-bit as well as 64-bit operating systems."
So the client software definitely runs on x32 and x64 Windows. The setup contains both x32 and x64 drivers for ag16900Rio and ag16900Svy so yes, maybe it would run on x64, too. As I don't have need for more than 4GB RAM, I have not tested that. But I don't think there would be a VGA driver for the internal VGA, so definitely the requirement to change the internal VGA card and/or display. Which would be too much effort for me for no real benefit.
More than 4GB are required for M950xA but not for 1690x.
I think v6.xx only supports the 168xx and the U4xxxx analyzers but not the 16900 series. At least the current version v6.60 does.

[gslick]

v5.90 definitely runs on x32. The release notes say: "Version 5.90 of the Agilent Logic and Protocol Analyzer software is a 32-bit application and therefore it is supported for use with 32-bit as well as 64-bit operating systems."
So the client software definitely runs on x32 and x64 Windows. The setup contains both x32 and x64 drivers for ag16900Rio and ag16900Svy so yes, maybe it would run on x64, too. As I don't have need for more than 4GB RAM, I have not tested that. But I don't think there would be a VGA driver for the internal VGA, so definitely the requirement to change the internal VGA card and/or display. Which would be too much effort for me for no real benefit.

The standard OS installation for the final versions of the 16901A, 16902B, and the 16801A, 16802A, 16803A, 1680A4, 16806A, 16821A, 16822A, 16823A models with the Adlink M-890 motherboard is 64-bit Windows Embedded Standard 7, running version 5.x of the logic analyzer application, up through Version 5.90.1110. Those models with the Adlink M-890 motherboard use the built-in Q45 chipset graphics controller and LVDS interface on the motherboard to drive the LCD, and the motherboard is maxed out at 4GB of RAM.

As you have noted trying to run a 64-bit version of Windows on a 16902A or 16903A with an updated motherboard would be a challenge because as far as I know there is no 64-bit version of a display driver available anywhere for the Chips 65550 video controller used to drive the LCD in those models. On a 16900A with no built-in LCD at least the display driver issue would be removed.

[tim292stro]

In the case of replacing the motherboard, I'd also be talking about moving to a 1600x1200 LCD over HDMI - abandoning the factory LCD and touch screen hardware.

That should resolve that issue, unless the factory LCD is required for the LA functions to operate.

[ingowien]

I just discovered: Any mainboard should be OK as long as the xilinx boot files in the hardware already match the software you're installing.
The binaries are contained in your application directory, e.g. agM3*.xsvf for 3-slot machines (16903) and agM6*.xsvf for 3-slot machines (16900 and 16902). However the software might refuse to flash them.
If a correct mainboard is detected, the boot ROM update utility will re-flash the boot files if required. Otherwise it will not touch the hardware and the service will probably not be able to access the hardware. Indicated by a message concerning the system BIOS during/after software installation.
The mainboard checks are very strict, even a VP22 mainboard might not be sufficient if it is unbranded or from a different device. As far as I found, the firmware update will only be started on a VP22 if the IDs "AGILENT TECHNOLOGIES" and "16900A/902A Logic Analysis System" are contained in the BIOS. However I don't know which exact IDs are used (chassis/system/OEM manufacturer and product ID). One could reverse engineer agProgBootRom.exe, there are some Registry keys used in parallel to auto detection (e.g. FrameModelNumber, FrameModelNumberOverride).
So in any case I would keep the original mainboard, it might be required for upgrades or failure recovery.
The program utility is launched after login (in HKLM/SW/Microsoft/Windows/CurrentVersion/Run) with
"C:\Program Files\Agilent Technologies\Logic Analyzer\agProgBootRom.exe" -pi -p "C:\Program Files\Agilent Technologies\Logic Analyzer"
This command can be used to check BIOS detection and firmware versions without the need to uninstall and re-install.

The factory LCD is not required for the LA. The 16900 doesn't have one and the service manual indicates that the 65552 VGA on the PCI card is automatically deactivated if no LCD is attached.

[ingowien]

Has anybody tried to change the mainboard of a 16902A? I'm trying to repair and upgrade an old machine that came with an I/O board with traces having been ripped off but I think I got it working.
- The machine works with the VP22 from a 16900A under XP with v3.83, v4.40 or v5.40. With or without the front panel attached.
- With a changed mainboard the machine works if the LCD/front panel is plugged off.
- If the front panel is connected, agLogicSvc.exe does not initialize, instead it hangs at the yellow icon with state "Logic Analyzer is Initializing".
  This is the same behaviour with different XP and Win7e images that run on my 16903A. Both with v4.40 and v5.40.
I tested various combinations and P5G41T and P5GC-MX boards. Internal VGA enabled and disabled. Tried to re-flash the FPGAs with the VP22 mainboard. But the behavior is always the same. I even swapped the front panels, both work on the 16903A an do not work on the 16902A.
Software uninstalled and re-installed several times. With Ag16900Standalone=1 I do not get the "NO VALID ID DETECTED IN FRAME" error. Just no progress in the instrument initialization. I even transferred the Windows setup from the 16903A to the 16902A. Same mainboard P5G41T. Works on 16903A, does not initialize on the 16902A. The service doesn't seem to lock up, it can be stopped and re-started without issues. It just seems to wait for some action that does not happen.
Seems to be similar to this problem that does not have a solution: https://community.keysight.com/thread/23267
I think I'll simply disconnect the front panel as the machine is unusable with the old P3 and thus convert the 16902A to a 16900A. But I'm curious if there is a simple fix. Or what the exact difference between the 16902A and the 16903A front panel interfacing are.
Any suggestions?

[charlyd]

hi ingowien, any news yet on the get version 5.90 hacked and bypass the frame ID, so it would work on not agilent boards? not that it is a must but it would be nice.

[ingowien]

I think there's no need to hack it, v5.90 seems to run on the 16900A and 16902A. I tried v5.90 in a last attempt and this fixed the issue of not initializing. It's just the 16903A that requires v5.40 if I remember correctly. Always assuming the correct FPGA binaries have already been flashed.
If not, you can try some overrides:
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\AgMachineInfo]
"AgFrameOverrideKey1"=dword:483c4aa9
"AgFrameOverrideKey2"=dword:3900384e
"AgFrameOverrideKey3"=dword:5af7983e
"AgFrameOverrideKey4"=dword:82100f65
"AgFrameModelNumberOverride"="16900"

[juan_ee]

Hello Everyone,  I just purchased a 16902B today with a few 16755A modules.  It came with Windows XP, version 3.83.0001 of Agilent Software and the M-880-Nitro motherboard.

I have been following this thread and it seem the 16902B is upgrade-able to Windows 7 32 bit using the existing M-880-Nitro motherboard.  Do I simply upgrade the Windows XP to Windows 7 and apply the newer version of Agilent software 5.90?  What are the best path for doing so?  (I have extra hard drives laying around to experiment).

Thanks 

[ingowien]

I'm not the expert, just playing around with my machines (and none of them was a B model), but basically this should be the way to go.
- You might want to check if there are additional licenses installed on your machine. However I don't know if or how they can be ported to a new setup.
- The LA Software setup contains almost everything except for display and touch drivers, DotNet (just the online installer) and some registry settings that are already contained in the original Agilent OS Image. Included are new FPGA binaries that are automatically flashed.
- If you then change back to XP with the old version, FPGA binaries won't match. However they are automatically downgraded (old versions are re-flashed) if you uninstall the old LA software and re-install it.
- I'd create a good backup (HDD image) of the old HDD or better use a new hard drive or SSD for experiments.
- As far as I know the 16902B doesn't use that very old 65552 VGA on the PCI card but uses an LVDS display attached to the mainboard, so the VGA setup should be easier to install. Maybe you'll need to find a suitable VGA driver. I don't know what touch controller is used in that machine. And drivers for all the other devices Win7 won't recognize except for the acquisition devices. For first tests this shouldn't matter but the touch on/off button or the internal display might refer to work as long as there are issues. I'd attach an external monitor in every case to see what's happening on both display outputs.

So I assume the install process would be
- Check all the drivers and devices that are installed in XP and document them.
- Export the settings from HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\AgMachineInfo to re-create them in Win7
- Install Windows
- Install all drivers except for the acquisition board.
- Install the Windows updates
- Not sure if you should install some registry parameters (maybe Ag16900Standalone) or simply import the XP backup from HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\AgMachineInfo.
- Install the required .Net version (unless you have the machine connected to the internet for the online installer).
- Install the LA software
 That's my usual approach for a clean setup.

In your special case it might be possible to try a Windows XP to Windows 7 upgrade install. This might preserve the license server and other settings. However I have never tried this.
best regards
Ingo

[juan_ee]

Hello ingowien,
Thank you for your reply.  I am doing the attempted upgrade today and tomorrow and will post my results here.  I will be using another hard drive to do this experiment, so I don't screw up the working WIN XP setup.  I don't think I have any additional add-on licenses, not sure where to check.

Anyone know what processor upgrades are available for the M-880-Nitro motherboard?  It seems it has an Intel Celeron D 3.2 GHz Microprocessor (Single Core).

Thanks.

[gslick]

Hello ingowien,
Thank you for your reply.  I am doing the attempted upgrade today and tomorrow and will post my results here.  I will be using another hard drive to do this experiment, so I don't screw up the working WIN XP setup.  I don't think I have any additional add-on licenses, not sure were to check.

Anyone know what processor upgrades are available for the M-880-Nitro motherboard?  It seem I have an Intel Celeron D 3.2 GHz Microprocessor (Single Core).

Thanks.

A Windows XP recovery DVD is available for 16902B analyzers with the ADLINK M-880 motherboard, so if your current hard drive died or got corrupted you could reinstall the system from scratch on a replacement hard drive.

How much memory is currently installed on your ADLINK M-880 motherboard? There were two official upgrade paths to Windows 7. One replaced the ADLINK M-880 motherboard with an ADLINK M-890 motherboard, the less expensive upgrade installed a total of 4GB of RAM on the existing ADLINK M-880 motherboard. Both upgrades provided new hard drives with Windows 7 pre-installed, with a recovery partition on the hard drives but no other recovery media.

The ADLINK M-890 runs a 64-bit version of Windows Embedded Standard 7. I don't know if the ADLINK M-880 upgrade was also a 64-bit version.

[ingowien]

In "Keysight N2753A and N2754A ... Upgrade Kit", the M880 is listed with an E8400 dual core CPU. So I'd assume most LGA775 CPUs with FSB1333 would work. Probably you could go up to an E8600 or E8700. Those are cheap, so a test shouldn't be a problem.  But the E8400 is fast enough. Such a CPU, 4GB RAM and an SSD will definitely give enough power for the analyzer. Quad cores as a Q9400...Q9700 probably will work, too. But I'd stick for higher single thread performance and a 65W CPU. The stock 65W intel cooler fits into the machine, the 95W cooler might be too large.
Changing mainboards is critical on those machines as (1) M880 and M890 boards are essentially unobtainium and (2) Agilent used different BIOS versions for different models. I'm not sure for the M880 but I've seen VP22 boards with Agilent signature with and without "16900" in it.  And if the signature is incorrect, the software might refuse to flash the FPGA binaries. At least this was the case in an 16900 with a Agilent VP22 board that maybe came from another device. Or was incorrectly flashed by Agilent in the first place. And I didn't find a single location where those Agilent BIOS versions would be shared.

[gslick]

In "Keysight N2753A and N2754A ... Upgrade Kit", the M880 is listed with an E8400 dual core CPU.

The M890 motherboard has the E8400 Core™2 Duo CPU, not the M880. I have 16901A and 16902B with M890 motherboards with E8400 CPUs. I don't have any with M880 motherboards to check the details of the chipsets on those.


Keysight N2753A and N2754A Windows XP to Windows 7 Upgrade Kits
For Infiniium 9000, 90000, and 90000 X-Series Oscilloscopes
https://www.keysight.com/us/en/assets/7018-03056/configuration-guides/5990-8569.pdf

If it says “Schooner CPU,” it’s an M890 and the motherboard will support the Windows 7 upgrade.
Keysight Technologies Schooner CPU 1.0.12611.3 Intel CoreTM Duo CPU E8400 @ 3.00 GHz

[ingowien]

You're right. E8400 is specified for the M890. I completely overlooked this, sorry.

I can't find useful information on the M880. The Celeron D is based on the later P4 with Socket 775. I find different models with 3.2GHz:
Prescott without IA64: 350: 3,20 GHz – 73W, FSB533 (4x133MHz)
Prescott with IA64: 351: 3,20 GHz – 84W, FSB533 (4x133MHz)
Cedar Mill: 352: 3,20 GHz – 86W, FSB533 (4x133MHz)
If the board uses an old 845 chipset, you might be stuck with a P4 or P4+HT with FSB533 and these are limited. I once had this problem with a PEB-7702 mainboard. The PEB-7702 at least supported HT CPUs which might not be the case for the M880. Some later 865 chipset revisions may support FSB800.
P4+HT with FSB533 are:
  P4 HT 3.06GHz/512/533 SL6xx 82W Northwood 133Mx23  (SL6K7, SL6JJ, SL6S5, SL6SM, SL6PG, SL6QC)
  P4 HT 517 2.93GHz/1M/533  84W Prescott 133Mx22 FSB533   (SL8ZY, SL9CD)
  P4 HT 524 3.06GHz/1M/533  84W Prescott 133Mx23 FSB533   (SL8ZZ, SL9CA)
I'm using an SL6S5 in an old vector network analyzer requiring an ISA slot (thus the PEB-7702) and it's more than adequate for Windows 7 and the NWA software.

@juan_ee: It would be nice if you could run CPU-z or a similar tool on your current XP, so we could get some more information on the M880 board.

[gslick]

@juan_ee: It would be nice if you could run CPU-z or a similar tool on your current XP, so we could get some more information on the M880 board.

If someone could run the attached command line utility in a command prompt window on an Agilent logic analyzer with the M880 motherboard and save the output in a file to paste here that would be interesting to look at. It dumps the device tree as enumerated by the Windows Configuration Manager.

example: "walk.exe > walk.txt" in a command prompt window, then attach the walk.txt output file to a reply or paste its contents into a reply.

[juan_ee]

Hello everyone,

I am still running updates on the Windows 7 32 bit SP1 installation... a slow and painful process.

Yes ingowien, I did start looking up stuff on the Celeron D I have, but not sure weather the motherboard will work the the P4+HT or forward with Core 2 Duo... but then I got busy with other stuff.

Someone asked how much ram I have... the original configuration is:

16902B with 3 16755A modules installed.
Windows XP, SP2, 2 GBytes Ram, 80 GBytes Hard Drive, version 3.83.0001 of Agilent Software and M-880-Nitro motherboard.

So, I did take your suggestion and ran the CPU-z, although under windows 7 since I am doing updates.

[juan_ee]

Hello gslick, Concerning the walk command... do you want me to run it under the original Windows XP installation or Windows 7?  I have never used the walk command.  Let us know...

Juan 

[gslick]

Hello gslick, Concerning the walk command... do you want me to run it under the original Windows XP installation or Windows 7?  I have never used the walk command.  Let us know...

Juan

It would be more interesting to run it on the original Windows XP installation as it outputs information about the driver loaded for each device. On Windows 7 it might take a while to get all of the drivers loaded properly.

You wouldn't have ever run that "walk" command in the attached .zip file in the previous Reply #71 as it is just a simple utility I wrote for my own use years ago.

The output looks like that shown in Reply #26 on Page 2 of this thread.