EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Martin72 on March 19, 2023, 11:02:23 pm
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Hi folks,
I had enough from my current soldering station from weller, the "cheap" we1010... :P
At work I have a WX-2, no contest....powerful, fast heating, no problems with double or more layer pcbs.
So now I want to have it at home too - but it´s expensive, really expensive.. :(
In our lab at work we also have stations from JBC, powerful too and a little bit cheaper to get.
So where should my money go to?
To JBC, to Weller WX system or Ersa I-Con system( don´t know it) ?
Just post your experiences here...
In my opinion, the three mentioned brands are the "rulers", so spareparts for years should be no problem, therefore I don´t want to read about some chinese brands here. :)
Thanks in advance,
Martin
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Ersa has no cartridge based soldering stations, so do not buy it.
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Ersa has no cartridge based soldering stations, so do not buy it.
That is very simplistic view.. Ersa performance is very good, and tips are inexpensive. It is also German brand and Martin can buy tips anywhere. Only problem is that changing tips is not that fast as with hot swap cartridge based designs. And that is something that can be important or not.
I gave up on Weller WD1 (after being a Weller man for 30+ years..) and got PACE ADS200. It works really well. I really like cold aluminium handle. Tips are not that expensive either. My other choice would have been Ersa. JBC then, maybe, tips are expensive..
I think all of them are good enough. Choice would be best based on consumables (tips) availability and price. Price of station gets amortized during years..
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I have the analog JBC "Weidinger Edition" at home. Performance is the same as the digital version and I think it's hard to beat for the price.
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I have been using a JBC CD-1BE station for a few years now, and absolutely love it. The handpiece is quite nice, and I have yet to have a cartridge wear out or fail. Cartridge prices are rather high.
I also have a Hakko FM-203 station with the FM-2027 (T15 tip, 70W) & FM-2030 (T22 tip, 140W) handpieces. Again, lovely handpieces, and no cartridge failures. Cartridge prices are very reasonable.
Although it's discontinued, I would like to include the Pace WJS-100 for an honorable mention.
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Ersa has no cartridge based soldering stations, so do not buy it.
That is very simplistic view.. Ersa performance is very good, and tips are inexpensive. It is also German brand and Martin can buy tips anywhere. Only problem is that changing tips is not that fast as with hot swap cartridge based designs. And that is something that can be important or not.
Not being able to change tips quickly is not entirely true. It depends on which Ersa station you are using.
My recommendation would be to go for the 'older' Ersa RDS80 soldering station and the 80W basic tool that can use the 832 / 842 series of tips. Those tips are indestructable. You simply don't need to buy spare tips ever. Some of my tips are 20 years old and work like new. I have not come across a brand of soldering irons that has better tips than Ersa. I take the ability of a tip to pick up solder anywhere I need it over heating up time or ease of changing it. The Ersa 832/842 tips use a spring & hook system that allows quick changing and Ersa has special pliers (not expensive) to change the tips quickly. When putting a board together I typically use 3 to 4 different kinds of tips.
I also worked with the newer Ersa I-Con series but I don't like the fact that the tips need to be screwed on. IMHO that is a step back. If you do go for the I-con series, then get a screw cap for each tip to make tip changes a bit quicker. The tips click into the screw cap so getting a hot tip out is iffy. My guess is that the I-Con series is more usefull at places where you don't need to change tips while working on a project.
I have worked with Weller and JBC as well and while having the heating element closer to the tip is nice, I noticed that the tips just aren't as good at picking up solder compared to Ersa.
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I have a JBC CD-2EO1.
I have had cause to change hot tips which is a nice feature. The tips are a bit expensive but they seem durable as i have not had to replace any since i bought the unit 3 years ago. Admittedly i only use 2 tips for 99% of the work that i have needed to do.
I would (and have) recommend it to anyone.
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Morning Martin
Hope you are well, long time no parlez so to speak!
I have owned Weller's for close to 30 years even in a non professional capacity and always found them to be very consistently good.
Three years ago my work horse decided to go the way fo the dodo, so while looking for a suitable replacement one of the chaps that work with us suggested I try his JBC stand-alone station for a day, to say I was impressed would be an understatement.
Among the other brands I tried were Hakko, Ersa & Metcal all had their plus points.
For myself performance, reliability, ease of use, tip types, styles and availability are all at the top of my desirability list.
After a month or so of serious benchmarking I settled on the JBC, not because the others were not up scratch because they were, I just preferred the 'feel' and in use of the JBC, the display and having hands like dinner plates I found the JBC had the ergonomic touch.
Since then, I have further explored the JBC 'back catalogue' so to speak along with some custom designed tips for some projects I'm working on. Just love the sheer amount of tip selection as well.
At this point in time personally I have six stations (two stand-alone stations) air desolders, one large, one small large and small smt tweezers, micro soldering station, hot air with FPGA etc removal facility. Plus, one of the larger under board info red heater platers and multiple circuit board size holders plus a really neat solder pot. One tip is something like 0.25mm.
I do use these devices every day and wouldn't be out them, they just make day to day life so much easier, and produce neater more reliable joints.
Cost is fair with some of the models and more expensive with others, if you pick the right station and tips you can get started well for around 330 euros I feel. Certain JBC equipment is over priced no question. However the CDS or CDB are superb units in the own right, tips range from 10 euros (popular units are between 18-34) to what ever you are willing to pay for a custom design.
Tip changing, cleaning and heat up time are all first class, in the last three years I have only replaced two of the most common tips I use C245-903, C245-001 and these were 18 euros each or so. Many, many hours on each one of those without question.
One of my best purchases in EE
Apologies for the state of the work beneches I am pretty busy at the moment.
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I tested a lot of different soldering stations, Ersa, Weller, Metcal, Pace, JBC, DIY-Projects.
Ersa is in my opinion a little bit behind from the technology side, Metcal is really expensive and Pace is ok, but i didnt like the handle and the really long tips.
For Weller i really like the WMRT/WMRP handles, but the stations are quite expensive.
If its totally budget based then there is this DIY Project: http://kair.us/projects/weller/index.html (http://kair.us/projects/weller/index.html)
I actually use one of them for years now with the weller tweezers and a DIY WMRP handle from the project.
You get the same performance as the real Weller station (i compared them side by side). (at least not noticeable for me)
With the 3D printed handle and one tip you maybe pay 70-90€ and have a small solid unit.
Theres also the unisolder project: https://github.com/sparkybg/UniSolder-5.2 (https://github.com/sparkybg/UniSolder-5.2)
A open source project where you can power all kinds of different handles from different brands.
I built two of them, its a really cool project but not really cheap and you need alot of time.
But i definitely would recommend a analog JBC Station with the 245 and the 210 handle with your preferred tips.
You can look for used station and handles, there often really cheap.
I use JBC at work and at home for years now and in my opinion its hard to beat.
For about 300-400€ (new Station+245+210+tips) you have a really solid station for every situation, big bulky and tiny SMD soldering.
If you care about your tips then they last very very long, some tips i use on a weekly base for years and theyre still good.
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After a month or so of serious benchmarking I settled on the JBC
Not much into JBC, but nice setup you have there including the tip selection.
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Your brand options among the faster heating stations are Metcal, Pace, JBC, Ersa, Hakko, Weller, Thermaltronics. Depends on where you want to start and where you want to end up. Personally I prefer stations that can take both irons and tweezers so at least you can run them later if you wish.
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I have the analog JBC "Weidinger Edition" at home. Performance is the same as the digital version and I think it's hard to beat for the price.
Same here, happy user for many years.
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Hi,
Thank you for all your inputs so far :)
I have actually already said goodbye to ersa....
Remain JBC or Weller, so current.
And actually I'm leaning more towards JBC as it is a complete cartridge system.
Which makes me a little unsure right now though:
I would also like to buy a little later SMD soldering tweezers for it, but there seems to be none for the slightly cheaper stations ?
That again is the advantage of the Weller WX station, there you can connect everything from soldering tweezers to 200W soldering iron.
If its totally budget based then there is this DIY Project: http://kair.us/projects/weller/index.html (http://kair.us/projects/weller/index.html)
I actually use one of them for years now with the weller tweezers and a DIY WMRP handle from the project.
I already got one....Nice thing but not the final solution and when it takes some money, I´ll spend some money for it.
Currently more for a JBC Station but the SMD tweezer thing makes me unsure...
Edit:
Example:
https://www.welectron.com/JBC-CD-2BQF-Digital-Soldering-Station (https://www.welectron.com/JBC-CD-2BQF-Digital-Soldering-Station)
No SMD tweezer for it... :P
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I have JBC "postman broke it, postman payed for it" edition, which provides excellent value for the price.
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We have a forum for this, many discussions covered already: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/)
- If you want cheap but quality small tweezers (eg 1206 or less SMD), Hakko FX1003 is the lowest total cost.
- Tweezers + iron in one, probably makes sense to go JBC. But yes you will pay a premium for that support.
- If you want best thermal performance, 80W Metcal.
SDG has reviewed almost everything: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/the-sdg-electronics-soldering-station-comparisonshootout-thread/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/other-blog-specific/the-sdg-electronics-soldering-station-comparisonshootout-thread/)
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The Metcal MX5200 (2 channel station) supports their standard (slim) and micro iron, tweezers and a vacuum desoldering handpiece, does require shop air for that though.
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very satisfied with a WXA portable setup, imho Weller has the best and most flexible stand setup - may sound silly but makes actual sense to me, beyond a certain quality threshold ergonomics is the deal maker/breaker. currently in the wait for a new WXair I most probably would consider buying the WXsmart if I were to go down that route again, even if it carries a hefty price tag...
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from an ex weller user and person i now use jbc and i dont think i would look back, i also love the fact i can use other brands like say aixun in places and situations where i dont want to take my expensive units. not sure you will ever be moving yours around but i tend to do a lot of on site work and i need stuff i can take with me. i even just got a small micro pen type soldering thing that directly takes 115 cartridges. the amount of choices are nearly endless imo. on my personal desk and on my personal desk at the office i use the real jbc. i give aixun units to the guys they like them a lot and use them every day and i dont have to worry about them breaking them or getting knocked off a desk etc (dont ask lol) etc
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Where it comes the SMD tweezers: look at Ersa Chip tool. I have used the JBC one in the past but found these are super wobbly. The Ersa Chip tool OTOH is solid and will pick up the smallest parts without the tips getting misaligned.
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Very satisfied with my JBC soldering station.
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was in the same situation like you some years ago. I guess choosing the right station is a very personal thing, so here are my personal experiences for what it's worth.
Everyone recommends JBC and most likely for very good reasons. However, I got a promo deal on an Ersa i-con 1 (not the nano or pico) that I could not let pass. When I pulled the trigger, I was still in doubt if I bought the right thing but once I started using it, I liked it very much and never looked back. For me the handle is perfect. Light, ergonomic, close to the soldering joint, silicone cable, what else would I want. Never got an issue with insufficient energy supply, 80w is plenty. Pb-free soldering is as smooth as Pb, never got a cold or sticky joints.
Heat up time is more than fast enough for me. I keep the station at 150 or 260 idle and it heats up to 360 in no time. Tip changing is easy with the plastic collar or the tweezers. Admittedly, JBC has the better technique but for me changing tips is a no brainer. Let the iron cool off, take a break, grab a coffee and come back.
With that being said, I am no SMD soldering type of guy. Choose the right tool for the job and if only a speciality JBC tip get the job done, the choice is clear.
One thing I really like though is the detached handle holder. If I remember correctly, the compact JBC stations are integrated, right? I use to have that lightweight silicone holder right beside my right hand like a mouse so that I can grab the handle without distraction and if I don't need the iron any more, I just tug the stand to the far corner of my desk but without needing to touch the heavy control unit.
Finally, I have been socialised with Ersa irons since my childhood so maybe I am biased here and of course Ersa is a german manufacturer in the lovely little city of Wertheim. Support our locals :) My first unregulated iron still runs on the first Ersadur tip and don't ask me how I abused that thing. The 102 tips are cheap and should last me a lifetime.
So, there you go... Useless wisdom of an old guy, thanks for reading ;)
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I like Metcal. I have the MX-500 station. Super fast heat up time, super quick tip change, super large variety of tips to choose from & can have both soldering iron & tweezers connected at same time. I have never met a solder joint this station could not handle.
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It's not easy... 8)
I'm still leaning towards the JBC, the cartridge system is very appealing, because the heating time is not a completely unimportant thing, especially if you have to solder on high-mass surfaces.
The ersa does not have that and the weller WX/MX system only partially.
On the other hand, I need a SMD soldering tweezers in the medium term.
And I'm still not figured out for which JBC stations the tweezers are suitable.
With Weller this is not a question as I know it myself at work.
I have there the WX-2 with the SMD tweezers, the 120W soldering iron, the 200W soldering iron and of course the small with the cartridge system.
However, all this costs wide over 1000€ together, I would like to spend a maximum of 600€. :P
The linked JBC for 400 would meet exactly my nerve - But there is no SMD tweezers for it... :(
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However, I got a promo deal on an Ersa i-con 1 (not the nano or pico) that I could not let pass. When I pulled the trigger, I was still in doubt if I bought the right thing but once I started using it, I liked it very much and never looked back. For me the handle is perfect. Light, ergonomic, close to the soldering joint, silicone cable, what else would I want. Never got an issue with insufficient energy supply, 80w is plenty. Pb-free soldering is as smooth as Pb, never got a cold or sticky joints.
Peak power is actually almost 150W, I don't remember for how long it holds exactly but it was more than a few seconds when I tested it a while ago. Average power which station can deliver has little of practical meaning for actual soldering and not boiling a cup of water. Also Ersa has a 250W i-Tool HighPower, if usual i-tool is too weak.
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Ersa has no cartridge based soldering stations, so do not buy it.
That is very simplistic view.. Ersa performance is very good, and tips are inexpensive. It is also German brand and Martin can buy tips anywhere. Only problem is that changing tips is not that fast as with hot swap cartridge based designs. And that is something that can be important or not.
Not being able to change tips quickly is not entirely true. It depends on which Ersa station you are using.
My recommendation would be to go for the 'older' Ersa RDS80 soldering station and the 80W basic tool that can use the 832 / 842 series of tips. Those tips are indestructable. You simply don't need to buy spare tips ever. Some of my tips are 20 years old and work like new. I have not come across a brand of soldering irons that has better tips than Ersa. I take the ability of a tip to pick up solder anywhere I need it over heating up time or ease of changing it. The Ersa 832/842 tips use a spring & hook system that allows quick changing and Ersa has special pliers (not expensive) to change the tips quickly. When putting a board together I typically use 3 to 4 different kinds of tips.
I also worked with the newer Ersa I-Con series but I don't like the fact that the tips need to be screwed on. IMHO that is a step back. If you do go for the I-con series, then get a screw cap for each tip to make tip changes a bit quicker. The tips click into the screw cap so getting a hot tip out is iffy. My guess is that the I-Con series is more usefull at places where you don't need to change tips while working on a project.
I have worked with Weller and JBC as well and while having the heating element closer to the tip is nice, I noticed that the tips just aren't as good at picking up solder compared to Ersa.
I don't see how fiddling with that spring crap is faster than unscrewing on i-con. Also RDS-80 is a really outdated non ESD safe station with relatively poor performance and which costs way too much for what it is. I-tool tips are extremely durable too, the only way I killed them was soldering in production scale (tens of thousands solder joints). The only tip which needs care IME is a blade tip. If you apply too much force it the thin pointy end, it may buckle a bit, iron plating can get damaged and then it can fail very fast once solder gets to the copper core.
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It's not easy... 8)
I'm still leaning towards the JBC, the cartridge system is very appealing, because the heating time is not a completely unimportant thing, especially if you have to solder on high-mass surfaces.
The ersa does not have that and the weller WX/MX system only partially.
A bigger tip does the job just fine for heaver work. If you have some holes that are connected to an internal layer without thermal reliefs, then JBC won't do you any good either (been there, done that). A better approach is to use a hot plate or hot air for pre-heating which both are pretty cheap to buy.
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Ersa has no cartridge based soldering stations, so do not buy it.
That is very simplistic view.. Ersa performance is very good, and tips are inexpensive. It is also German brand and Martin can buy tips anywhere. Only problem is that changing tips is not that fast as with hot swap cartridge based designs. And that is something that can be important or not.
Not being able to change tips quickly is not entirely true. It depends on which Ersa station you are using.
My recommendation would be to go for the 'older' Ersa RDS80 soldering station and the 80W basic tool that can use the 832 / 842 series of tips. Those tips are indestructable. You simply don't need to buy spare tips ever. Some of my tips are 20 years old and work like new. I have not come across a brand of soldering irons that has better tips than Ersa. I take the ability of a tip to pick up solder anywhere I need it over heating up time or ease of changing it. The Ersa 832/842 tips use a spring & hook system that allows quick changing and Ersa has special pliers (not expensive) to change the tips quickly. When putting a board together I typically use 3 to 4 different kinds of tips.
I also worked with the newer Ersa I-Con series but I don't like the fact that the tips need to be screwed on. IMHO that is a step back. If you do go for the I-con series, then get a screw cap for each tip to make tip changes a bit quicker. The tips click into the screw cap so getting a hot tip out is iffy. My guess is that the I-Con series is more usefull at places where you don't need to change tips while working on a project.
I have worked with Weller and JBC as well and while having the heating element closer to the tip is nice, I noticed that the tips just aren't as good at picking up solder compared to Ersa.
I don't see how fiddling with that spring crap is faster than unscrewing on i-con. Also RDS-80 is a really outdated non ESD safe station with relatively poor performance and which costs way too much for what it is. I-tool tips are extremely durable too, the only way I killed them was soldering in production scale (tens of thousands solder joints). The only tip which needs care IME is a blade tip. If you apply too much force it the thin pointy end, it may buckle a bit, iron plating can get damaged and then it can fail very fast once solder gets to the copper core.
You may call it spring crap, but it isn't. It is a very simple and effective way to keep the tip in place. Either use a small plier or buy the special Ersa plier and you can change tips in seconds. A screw mechanism is always slower. I change tips regulary during soldering jobs and I really wouldn't want to use the I-con series soldering iron (I have hands-on experience with that model as well). Requires to put fingers way too close to a piece of hot metal. Give me the spring mount system any time of the day. I don't care it is invented 40 years ago or that it isn't sexy, it works like a charm and it is much safer to use. Also it isn't true that the RDS-80 soldering station is not anti-static. It has a ground point on the front by which you can ground the tip (through a resistor) making the iron ESD safe. But you are always free to buy the Digital 2000A station (which I also have together with the chip tool hot tweezers). The technology used inside the soldering stations is exactly the same though. With a different connector, the Ersa power tool will work just fine on the RDS-80 station for example.
Edit: the video thm_w linked to in the posting below lists exactly the same problems I have found with the Ersa I-con series iron. It is a pity the guy didn't test the Ersa iron with the spring loaded tip holders (like the power tool). I'm sure he would get to a totally different conclusion.
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Again, SDG has basically covered all of this.
Ersa might be OK if you can get it cheap, but, in NA it doesn't make any sense as the station cost is incredibly high. Even SDG paid 600 GBP for it. Tweezers alone would be $400 here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc4hqw0p6kI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc4hqw0p6kI)
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I have an Ersa i-con 2 since 2008 an I am very satisfied with it. For big things, I just plug in the i-con a PowerTool with 842 tips.
The Ersa 30 that I got in 1971 is still in work condition
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It's not easy... 8)
I'm still leaning towards the JBC, the cartridge system is very appealing, because the heating time is not a completely unimportant thing, especially if you have to solder on high-mass surfaces.
The ersa does not have that and the weller WX/MX system only partially.
A bigger tip does the job just fine for heaver work. If you have some holes that are connected to an internal layer without thermal reliefs, then JBC won't do you any good either (been there, done that). A better approach is to use a hot plate or hot air for pre-heating which both are pretty cheap to buy.
At Work we have the JBC NASE-Station, with the 115 nano handle and a blade tip i solder most THT components (with internal pwr and gnd connection) without any big problems.
I was shocked how good that little thing delivers power. With the 210 or the 245 iron and a appropriate tip i never had problems, even with big bulky solid copper soldering.
I think for 260€ this analog JBC station with 245 handle and one tip is a no-brainer: https://www.weidinger.eu/en/p/wl46586 (https://www.weidinger.eu/en/p/wl46586)
The 210 handle goes for around 60€ and for the tips about 20-35€.
So in my opinion for about 400€ you have a really good setup for most soldering needs.
If you already have the diy weller station, maybe you can just buy the wmrt tweezer, they work really good for me with this station.
If you want a new all-in-one station with iron and tweezers i think there is no really good solution for under ~1000 bucks.
I would look for a used station and buy tips new. I bought my analog JBC dual iron station with stands and handles for around 200€ a while ago.
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The technology used inside the soldering stations is exactly the same though. With a different connector, the Ersa power tool will work just fine on the RDS-80 station for example.
Edit: the video thm_w linked to in the posting below lists exactly the same problems I have found with the Ersa I-con series iron. It is a pity the guy didn't test the Ersa iron with the spring loaded tip holders (like the power tool). I'm sure he would get to a totally different conclusion.
Technology is not the same at all. You can run older tools on I-CON stations only because they have backwards compatibility. On I-CON 2 it's for the left connector only, also works on single port I-CON too IIRC but on I-CON1 which replaced it later you cannot because extra pins on connector are not used. i-tool has an MCU and ADXL323 accelerometer inside it. More expensive v/vario variants have support for non digital tools too.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/ersa-i-con-1-teardown-and-repair-(success)/?action=dlattach;attach=185615;image)
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The Ersa doesn't do it for me either. It's completely usable but too many negative points.
One that wasn't mentioned in SDGs video is the stand isn't designed for wide blade or package removal tips. On Pace stands (shown in the image) you can see the U shaped design, it allows you still to return the handpiece without removing them.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-pace-ads200-production-soldering-station/?action=dlattach;attach=507923;image)
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The Ersa doesn't do it for me either. It's completely usable but too many negative points.
One that wasn't mentioned in SDGs video is the stand isn't designed for wide blade or package removal tips. On Pace stands (shown in the image) you can see the U shaped design, it allows you still to return the handpiece without removing them.
Depends on which stand you buy. It's not like ERSA has a single stand. As of most basic A50/A52 stands, they can fit up to about 15mm diameter tips. Special tips for single package type are a waste of money imho. Either dual wield soldering irons, get SMD tweezers or just use hot air.
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To JBC, to Weller WX system or Ersa I-Con system( don´t know it) ?
Just post your experiences here...
I’m not a fan of Weller*. I have used both JBC and Ersa i-Con 1 and 2 2V at work, and I have the i-Con nano at home.
I prefer the “big” i-Con models (= all except the nano and pico) overall of all of them. The big i-Cons are better than the nano in 3 ways that matter to me, having used both extensively: backlit display, front-panel power switch, and more heater power, in order from largest to smallest factor. They share the same tips, heater, and handle style. I much prefer the Ersa handle to the JBC, which are longer than they need to be.
(The i-Con pico I would avoid: it’s only slightly cheaper than the nano, but is not ESD-safe, on account of using a cheaper heater with plastic threads for the tips. And IIRC, the pico is made in China while the nano and the big ones are made in Germany.)
I also MUCH prefer the Ersa iron stands over the JBC’s built-in stands. I like to have the stand within easy reach, and I hated having to drag the entire JBC station across the bench just to have the stand closer. (I think it’s separate in the really expensive modular JBC models, but not the mainstream ones.) The Ersa stand is made entirely of rubber with a ceramic (not plastic or metal) insert. I like the angle it’s at, I like that the stand is light, and thus easy to move, yet doesn’t slip around because of its design, which makes it grippy on the bench.
The JBC has the advantage of the fastest tip changes, and a MASSIVE selection of tips. But the JBC tips cost so much that actually taking advantage of that selection would cost a fortune. And to add insult to injury, those expensive JBC tips don’t last as long as Ersa tips, which mostly cost a lot less. (Like €30 for a JBC chisel vs €10 for an Ersa chisel. Even if you factor in the €5 screw holder thingie — I totally agree you should get one for each tip — it’s still half the price, and if you should ever wear out the tip, you can still reuse the holder.
If I were going to buy one now, I’d probably buy the i-Con 2, to enable both dual irons for grabbing chip resistors and stuff (instead of tweezers), and to be able to have two irons with different tips at the ready. (I’d want this even with a JBC.)
Despite the Ersa not being a cartridge heater system, the real-world performance is outstanding, and feels indistinguishable from the JBC in actual use.
I’d love to test the Pace ADS200 and see how it stacks up. I have a Pace desoldering station and really like it. While it doesn’t have the sheer heating power of Ersa’s desoldering handpiece (x-tool vario, I believe it’s called) for the i-Con stations, the Pace vacuum pump is far, far better, and I find it to be much better at clearing holes. (And the Ersa desoldering tips and supplies like filters are crazy expensive!)
I haven’t used JBC’s desoldering tool, since I haven’t worked anywhere that had one. (Nor have I used the very latest Weller desoldering tools. I have used older ones and they were awful compared to Pace.)
*The one thing Weller does best is having hands down the softest cable of any soldering iron I’ve ever used. Everyone else should learn from this!
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I also worked with the newer Ersa I-Con series but I don't like the fact that the tips need to be screwed on. IMHO that is a step back. If you do go for the I-con series, then get a screw cap for each tip to make tip changes a bit quicker. The tips click into the screw cap so getting a hot tip out is iffy. My guess is that the I-Con series is more usefull at places where you don't need to change tips while working on a project.
FWIW, the latest Ersa, the i-Con Trace, uses bayonet-mount tips. It’s a strange beast made specifically for traceable production manufacturing, so the tips even have little QR codes on them so you can use the app to keep track of what is being used. ::) But anyway, it eschews the screw tips.
With that said, with a separate tip holder for each tip, changing tips on a standard i-Con isn’t difficult at all even when hot, though it’s not as easy as a JBC or similar.
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I also worked with the newer Ersa I-Con series but I don't like the fact that the tips need to be screwed on. IMHO that is a step back. If you do go for the I-con series, then get a screw cap for each tip to make tip changes a bit quicker. The tips click into the screw cap so getting a hot tip out is iffy. My guess is that the I-Con series is more usefull at places where you don't need to change tips while working on a project.
FWIW, the latest Ersa, the i-Con Trace, uses bayonet-mount tips. It’s a strange beast made specifically for traceable production manufacturing, so the tips even have little QR codes on them so you can use the app to keep track of what is being used. ::) But anyway, it eschews the screw tips.
With that said, with a separate tip holder for each tip, changing tips on a standard i-Con isn’t difficult at all even when hot, though it’s not as easy as a JBC or similar.
Traceable production manufacturing that relies on phone for setup....
There is no hope for us.... :-DD
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I said you can use the app, not that you must. The app is not the only way to set it up, I think the idea is primarily central management, like JBC and others also have.
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I said you can use the app, not that you must. The app is not the only way to set it up, I think the idea is primarily central management, like JBC and others also have.
Yeah I looked it up... But still I cringe at "phonification" of absolutely everything.....
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I’d love to test the Pace ADS200 and see how it stacks up. I have a Pace desoldering station and really like it. While it doesn’t have the sheer heating power of Ersa’s desoldering handpiece (x-tool vario, I believe it’s called) for the i-Con stations, the Pace vacuum pump is far, far better, and I find it to be much better at clearing holes. (And the Ersa desoldering tips and supplies like filters are crazy expensive!)
I haven’t used JBC’s desoldering tool, since I haven’t worked anywhere that had one. (Nor have I used the very latest Weller desoldering tools. I have used older ones and they were awful compared to Pace.)
*The one thing Weller does best is having hands down the softest cable of any soldering iron I’ve ever used. Everyone else should learn from this!
X-tool vario only works with V/Vario variants of I-CON. ICON-2 supports old X-tool (from previous generation of stations like digital 2000) which is not good IMHO. Handle heats up like hell if you desolder a lot of pins. Cleaning the tip is a chore too. Never used X-tool vario but looks like way more thought has gone into it's design.
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I’m not a fan of Weller
I´m using the WX system since 5yrs at work and like it.
But the costs...
I am still undecided, but it is an investment for the next few years if not longer - And you are then tied to the system.
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To JBC, to Weller WX system or Ersa I-Con system( don´t know it) ?
Just post your experiences here...
I’m not a fan of Weller*. I have used both JBC and Ersa i-Con 1 and 2 at work, and I have the i-Con nano at home.
I also MUCH prefer the Ersa iron stands over the JBC’s built-in stands. I like to have the stand within easy reach, and I hated having to drag the entire JBC station across the bench just to have the stand closer. (I think it’s separate in the really expensive modular JBC models, but not the mainstream ones.) The Ersa stand is made entirely of rubber with a ceramic (not plastic or metal) insert. I like the angle it’s at, I like that the stand is light, and thus easy to move, yet doesn’t slip around because of its design, which makes it grippy on the bench.
While I love the performance of my JBC, I find the ergonomics leave much to be desired, especially if you cannot work with the station directly beside you.
Iron holder on the right side of the station makes for a longer reach & using the spring widget to hold the cable out of the way makes the cable too short, especially with the cable socket on the rear of the station. Really?
I ended up buying an AD-SE stand and making a custom extension cable in order to leave the station itself at the far right side of my bench.
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I have an Ersa i-Con 2V. It's good overall. Tip change is easy, I have a 3d printed holder where I put various tips with collars. Changing them hot is no problem-- unscrew tip, grab it with tweezers, put on stand, take new tip, put on iron and screw it in.
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I’d love to test the Pace ADS200 and see how it stacks up. I have a Pace desoldering station and really like it. While it doesn’t have the sheer heating power of Ersa’s desoldering handpiece (x-tool vario, I believe it’s called) for the i-Con stations, the Pace vacuum pump is far, far better, and I find it to be much better at clearing holes. (And the Ersa desoldering tips and supplies like filters are crazy expensive!)
I haven’t used JBC’s desoldering tool, since I haven’t worked anywhere that had one. (Nor have I used the very latest Weller desoldering tools. I have used older ones and they were awful compared to Pace.)
*The one thing Weller does best is having hands down the softest cable of any soldering iron I’ve ever used. Everyone else should learn from this!
X-tool vario only works with V/Vario variants of I-CON. ICON-2 supports old X-tool (from previous generation of stations like digital 2000) which is not good IMHO. Handle heats up like hell if you desolder a lot of pins. Cleaning the tip is a chore too. Never used X-tool vario but looks like way more thought has gone into it's design.
Yep, the X-Tool Vario on the 2V is what we have at work, so what I said is referring to that. I have never used the original X-tool.
Compared to my Pace, the vacuum is weak, the solder trap is tiny, and the filters are crazy. (It uses a sintered brass filter in the handpiece and then a tiny disposable inline filter in the hose. In contrast, Pace uses felt in the handpiece, and a much larger, replaceable-element inline filter in the hose.)
For those that aren’t familiar with them:
- Pace uses a powerful vacuum pump that is briefly run at double power after pressing the electronic trigger on the handpiece (or a foot pedal if you prefer) to provide a burst of vacuum, then continues at normal power indefinitely as long as the button is held. This gives plenty of time to perform the “circling the pin under vacuum” technique to clear the hole and cool it so the pin can’t re-adhere.
- Ersa uses a weaker pump to draw a vacuum ahead of time, with the trigger in the handpiece being a pneumatic valve. When you press it, it opens towards the tip so that there’s a sudden rush of air into it. The pump detects that the pressure in the system has returned to ambient and turns the pump back on. However, it’s weaker overall, and it doesn’t run continuously even if you hold the trigger — every few seconds, it stops the pump for a second.
As for handpiece shape, I prefer the Pace pencil-style desoldering handpiece, but this is truly a matter of taste.
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There is a hakko FM202 station in ebay "fleamarket" avaible, with two soldering irons and several partly unused tips.
For 200€...
What I saw on the hakko site, tihs station is discontinued but that is nothing to worry.
What are your thoughts on it ?
I would buy it as a kind of interim solution because I need a little more power and that now.
For long time I would have another system.
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I used JBC in uni and built a custom station that works with all the Weller WX cartridge tips before. I also own a Hakko FX-950 (the analog one) as well as the Goot RX-802AS.
And I ended up with Metcal with no intention of trying anything else ::)
The the Hakko and Goot thermal recovery is not as good as the JBC and Weller.
The biggest gripe I have with JBC and Weller is the plating of their cartridge tips aren't very durable. It degrades quite quickly and doesn't wet that well after 6-9 months of moderate use. The Hakko plating is basically bullet proof in contrast.
IMO Metcal thermal response is better than Weller and JBC, and their tip plating is on par with Hakko.
Obviously the matcal can't change tip temperature, but I rarely (never, even) find it to be an issue. It just works, and because even their fine tips can melt solder to a coin quickly, the need to bump up the temperature for larger work simply does not exist.
I now use a MX-5200 for the regular handpiece and Hakko FX-1003 tweezers, an old second hand MX-500 for the micro iron, and a Hakko FR-410 for desoldering. I think this is my end game. ;D
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Obviously the matcal can't change tip temperature, but I rarely (never, even) find it to be an issue. It just works, and because even their fine tips can melt solder to a coin quickly, the need to bump up the temperature for larger work simply does not exist.
The Metcal has 3 different tip temperatures. The have 600, 700 & 800 degree tips. Since the tips heat up almost instantly, it's not big deal to swap in a higher or lower temp. tip if needed.
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As a long time user of Weller soldering stations of the lower cost variety, originally at work the old TCP series (the ones with the magnetic bit and switch) and latterly at home a WE1010, I think the issue is that basically that the lightweight bits on these irons just do not have enough mass to quickly transfer heat to the joint on anything more than a 1 to 2mm wide track. They are not well suited to soldering large areas of copper track/ground, despite being three times the Wattage rating of a humble Antex XS25.
By contrast, I have an Antex XS25 and also an M12, these are basic "home user" soldering irons with quite heavy bits (by comparison to the tiny hollow bits of the WE1010) and no temperature control. However, other than tending to run a little hot (even for lead free solder), they are still very effective at soldering even quite delicate circuit boards, including SMD stuff with the little M12. With the XS25 and a large bit, it will solder surprisingly large items without significant delay to heat the part.
For my use, the WE1010 is reasonably OK for general purpose assembly work on through hole and SMD print boards, especially as it doesn't over heat, although for a quick repair job the basic Antex irons are pretty hard to improve on.
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Another long time weller user here. Switched to Ersa i-Con 1V some years ago. Also bought the tweezers and a load of tips over time.
Switching tips is really fast, provided you get the screw ring for all tips and also get or make enough brass pins to put the swapped-out hot tips on. You don't want to burn yourself.
Now since I have 2 tools, and the 1V only has one "hole", an extension was needed. I did not like the fact that on the i-Con 2V both tools are on all the time, so decided to keep the 1V and make an external tool switcher, allowing me to switch between the tweezers and the regular iron through a push on a button (can be found here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/ersa-i-con2v-(port-switch-hack)/msg3056190/#msg3056190)). The tools heat up very fast, making all this transparent and very easy.
In all rather satisfied with Ersa.
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Obviously the matcal can't change tip temperature, but I rarely (never, even) find it to be an issue. It just works, and because even their fine tips can melt solder to a coin quickly, the need to bump up the temperature for larger work simply does not exist.
The Metcal has 3 different tip temperatures. The have 600, 700 & 800 degree tips. Since the tips heat up almost instantly, it's not big deal to swap in a higher or lower temp. tip if needed.
I use the 700 series for all my tips. They will solder anything you throw at it. I haven't had the urge or need to try anything else.
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Obviously the matcal can't change tip temperature, but I rarely (never, even) find it to be an issue. It just works, and because even their fine tips can melt solder to a coin quickly, the need to bump up the temperature for larger work simply does not exist.
The Metcal has 3 different tip temperatures. The have 600, 700 & 800 degree tips. Since the tips heat up almost instantly, it's not big deal to swap in a higher or lower temp. tip if needed.
I use the 700 series for all my tips. They will solder anything you throw at it. I haven't had the urge or need to try anything else.
Same here. I also mostly use the 700 series. However, on occasion with a really old delicate PCB, I will use the 600 series as not to damage the delicate old pads & traces.
I have a few of the 800 series but I don't think I have ever needed them.
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So I have used a good few stations, Mostly Weller but a few others
Weller WS51, At home this is the everyday station. I used it in my workplace for over 7 years, very reliable and can do 90% of all jobs.
Metcal MX-500/MFR-1100, At first I though these were overpriced, non adjustable pro grade stuff. After a year of use it is very good, and the selection of tips is far greater than my Weller ( a lot smaller options)
Quick 861DW - As per Louis Rossman review, this is a great hot air station. High power and low air speed. (this combined with WES51 was my work setup for 7 years)
Weller WTHA1N - Complete garbage. lacks power and lowest air speed setting will blow many SMD components away. ( I'm waiting for the boss that bought it to through it in the garbage and get a Quick)
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Hi..
I had the opportunity to buy a very inexpensive I-CON 1, in near mint condition.
Should arrive soon, then I will test them properly.
If successful, that would be great of course, for little money to have gotten a good solution.
But I have just discovered a downer:
If I read it correctly, the SMD chip tool does not fit for an I-CON 1... :(
If this is confirmed, this Ersa will remain only an interim solution, because a SMD soldering tweezers I want to have in any case.
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Hi..
I had the opportunity to buy a very inexpensive I-CON 1, in near mint condition.
Should arrive soon, then I will test them properly.
If successful, that would be great of course, for little money to have gotten a good solution.
But I have just discovered a downer:
If I read it correctly, the SMD chip tool does not fit for an I-CON 1... :(
If this is confirmed, this Ersa will remain only an interim solution, because a SMD soldering tweezers I want to have in any case.
Just buy the station that is compatible with the tweezers. The Ersa SMD tweezers are the best I have used so far.
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Hi..
I had the opportunity to buy a very inexpensive I-CON 1, in near mint condition.
Should arrive soon, then I will test them properly.
If successful, that would be great of course, for little money to have gotten a good solution.
But I have just discovered a downer:
If I read it correctly, the SMD chip tool does not fit for an I-CON 1... :(
If this is confirmed, this Ersa will remain only an interim solution, because a SMD soldering tweezers I want to have in any case.
It depends on what version of the i-Con 1 it is. The original i-Con 1 (which I think was actually just called “i-Con” without a number, because it was the only model initially, then later had the 1 appended once they had multichannel version) supports the Chip-Tool. Then when they came out with the Vario line, they created new Vario versions of many handpieces, replaced the i-Con 1 with the i-Con 1V and introduced the “new” stripped-down i-Con 1 that only supports the standard iron.
Don’t hold me to exact details, finding out the info is surprisingly hard so some of it is from memory. :(
If memory serves me correctly, the Chip-Tool Vario absolutely requires a “Vario” station. The old non-Vario Chip-Tool works on the original i-Con, too.
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Today the ICON-1 arrived...In absolute mint condition :D
First impression:
I am surprised at how valuable the station looks.
On pictures it looks rather cheap, but in "real" this impression is very deceptive.
I will test it on the weekend, then more impressions will follow.
And the chip tool thing, I still have to follow up....
For now, as I said, pleasantly surprised.
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Not any sort of expert, but happy with my hakko f888…
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Not any sort of expert, but happy with my hakko f888…
It’s a perfectly decent basic iron. But once you go to modern fast-heating types with a short tip-to-grip distance, you don’t wanna go back…
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Two soldering tips arrived today, one 0.4mm for SMD and one normal 1mm.
The 1mm I can exchange again, because it is not suitable for the I-tool (not careful when ordering).
But the 0.4mm tip was used today immediately to solder the small SMD components on a board.
What can I say, my Weller at work can not do better, I am very satisfied. :)
I will definitely order more soldering tips, I think the ersa I-Con could actually be enough. :-+
Martin
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Once I tried a JBC cartridge soldering station in 2012, I was dreaming about one. I bought a PACE ADS200 in 2022.
Ersa looks so dated to me. The graphic LCD is nice though. Buy it only if you are completely sure that you do not like cartridge soldering stations like PACE, JBC or Hakko.
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As I mentioned before, we have Weller and JBC stations at work and earlier I couldn't tell any difference between them and the ersa in terms of soldering behavior(SMD).
That surprised me very much, because the I-con stations are used very cheap to buy, my in mint condition had cost me just 200 €.
If I do not find any showstoppers in terms of soldering (the "endurance test" with doublelayer/groundplane is still pending), I will probably stay with it.
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The Ersa stations config has 3 power level settings, think of them as a boost. Their own manual shows on max power tip temp overshoots to about 125% of the set temp and recovers about twice as fast (compared to the low setting). So some of the apparent performance will be due to the regulation involved on these different settings.
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The Ersa stations config has 3 power level settings, think of them as a boost. Their own manual shows on max power tip temp overshoots to about 125% of the set temp and recovers about twice as fast (compared to the low setting). So some of the apparent performance will be due to the regulation involved on these different settings.
JBC is at least as bad, if not worse: it's well documented that some of their great performance is because they're willing to tolerate massive overshoots. At least Ersa is up front about it and lets you choose.
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Ersa looks so dated to me. The graphic LCD is nice though. Buy it only if you are completely sure that you do not like cartridge soldering stations like PACE, JBC or Hakko.
"Dated" simply because they haven't changed technology? But if their current technology (precision heater and tip dimensions) works just as well, why bother?
I used JBC at my previous job, Ersa at my current one (and at home), and honestly, I don't think I could tell the difference in performance if I tried. They each have subtle pros and cons, but the overall soldering performance is excellent for both of them.
The fact is, Ersa's current system manages to get comparable performance out of much cheaper tips, by not needing to include a heater in each tip. So if the performance is there, why complain?
The only true advantage to the JBC is the one-handed, no-tool tip changes even while hot. On the Ersa you need to unscrew the tip, so it takes both hands*. JBC also has an absolutely massive library of tips for sale -- but JBC's tip pricing (ca. 3x the cost for basic tips; less difference for exotic ones) makes it prohibitively expensive to actually buy lots of them. :(
Other than that, I prefer the Ersa in basically every way.
*And I guess they heard this from a lot of people, since the new i-Con Trace production station uses bayonet-mounted tips that can be changed with one hand only.
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Two soldering tips arrived today, one 0.4mm for SMD and one normal 1mm.
The 1mm I can exchange again, because it is not suitable for the I-tool (not careful when ordering).
But the 0.4mm tip was used today immediately to solder the small SMD components on a board.
What can I say, my Weller at work can not do better, I am very satisfied. :)
I will definitely order more soldering tips, I think the ersa I-Con could actually be enough. :-+
Heh, I have the 0.4mm chisel, too, and I think I've used it... once?
There is no 1mm chisel in the 0102 series. 1.2mm is the closest.
In addition to the 1.6mm that comes bundled, I have the 1.2, 2.4, and 3.2mm chisels, the 2.4mm "PowerWell" drag soldering tip, and the PLCC blade. (At work, we have more, including some of the much larger chisels, and they're great for connectors. We do a lot of coaxial connectors at work, with their large masses of metal.) At home, the PLCC blade actually does well for a lot of heavy work, yet still has a point. It's a very flexible tip.
Here's what's available:
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/fileadmin/medien/members_final/Electronics/1_Technische_Datenblaetter/1.1_Tools/Ersa-standard-i-tips.pdf
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There is no 1mm chisel in the 0102 series. 1.2mm is the closest.
Yeah, it was my mistake when ordering the tip.
"Today" I´ve finished the soldering tasks for the 1kz oscillator, smd and normal.
The I-Con performed well, nothing bad to say about.
Their own manual shows on max power tip temp overshoots to about 125% of the set temp
Yes, saw this on the display while heating (very fast).
When the temps is setting to 350°C, it heats up to say 390°C in the first moment.
No problem although I never saw such behaviour on the weller MX station at work.
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As long as you are mindful of the overshoot it's less of a problem. As Tooki said you can at least turn the overshoot down and I agree it would be worse if you couldn't.
The upsides, the station looks fairly easy to read and operate, good power, a separate stand. The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy. In terms of what is acceptable or not you have to use your own judgement.
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The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy.
Your wording suggests that you think that overshoot is a consequence of it not being a cartridge heater system. But JBC, which is a cartridge system, has huge overshoots, and with it is only trivially faster in practice.
Ultimately, Ersa shows that a well-designed heater+tip system performs just as well in practice as a cartridge heater. I’ve used traditional heater+tip soldering stations, and the i-Con series is simply not the same. It behaves like a cartridge system.
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Also, when we got some new JBCs at my old job (so like 2-3 years ago), I measured them using a soldering tip thermometer and found them to run 20C higher than displayed, out of the box. (My Ersa at home measured spot on what the thermometer said.)
I mean, running 20C hot is also a way to look more powerful…
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As long as you are mindful of the overshoot it's less of a problem. As Tooki said you can at least turn the overshoot down and I agree it would be worse if you couldn't.
The upsides, the station looks fairly easy to read and operate, good power, a separate stand. The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy. In terms of what is acceptable or not you have to use your own judgement.
I usually set the temperature before soldering, so I don't care about an overshoot before reaching the set point.
You won´t have that "problem" when soldering.
For those interested, the ersa uses a PID controller.
In the next days I´ll contact ersa for the chiptool.
Won´t believe it that the chiptool is only compatible to the I-CON vario stations...
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The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy.
Your wording suggests that you think that overshoot is a consequence of it not being a cartridge heater system.
Only a part of it and I'm aware they have made design choices to mitigate some disadvantages that come with that.
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I have designed a DIY soldering station before for the weller cartridge tips, and I can assure you all closed loop controlled soldering iron either overshoots or has some/significant temperature droop when it is heating up a joint. Some stations hide it, others are more honest.
Fundamentally, there's always a lag between the temperature at the heating surface (the surface of the tip that touches the joint) and the temperature sensor, and there's always a lag (usually larger) between the heating element and the heating surface. What's more, the soldering station can only add heat to a tip, but can't remove heat from the tip by itself and has to rely on convection or heating up the iron handle ::).
So let's say the user sets the tip to 350 C, heats up a joint, and only until e.g. 2 seconds later, does the sensor reads the tip has dropped say 50 C to 300 C. What do you do?
1. Immediately ramp up the heating power, so that the tip maintains 350 C while melting the solder joint. However, when the user removes the tip from the joint, the thermal mass drops significantly, and the elevated heating power means the temperature shoots up. By the time the tip senses it has overshot the temperature setpoint, it is already too late and the extra thermal energy added to the tip between user removing tip from joint, and the control loop realizing the tip is too hot cannot be removed from the tip (a heater can only source heat, can't sink it). With this scheme, the tip temperature overshoots, often significantly.
2. Accept that the system lags, and try to close loop control the tip to 310 C instead, knowing that when the user lifts the tip up, the system can react faster than the time needed for the tip temperature to significantly overshoot.
Overall, this is a very tricky and messy control problem without a perfect solution, because:
a. The system lags.
b. You can't lower the tip temperature if you overshoot.
c. The station can't read the user's mind to know when the tip will be removed from the joint.
d. The station does not know or decide what it is soldering. (Say you solder a small thing, heater only need to ramp up from 20% to 40% to maintain temperature, overshooting will be minimal afterwards. If you solder a large ground plane with 80% power instead, overshooting after tip removal will be very significant.)
So the general way manufactures try to mitigate this is
- Design the tip to be as sensitive as possible (sensor close to heating surface, use thin tip plating, optimise tip geometry, integrated cartridge etc.)
- Compromise between overshooting and thermal performance/responsiveness.
- Hide the overshoot and undershoot from the user ::).
This is why the perceived soldering performance and responsiveness rarely has anything to do with the rated heating power of the tip of system. It has more to do with the tip structure, sensor placement, tip plating, tip material and heater construction, and the control loop implementation. Using high heating power blindly will result in a overheated tip.
OR, get a metcal and let physics, curie point and metallurgy do its thing. :-DD
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With the additional solder tips it was no problem to solder all the parts on the pcb of my power inductor checker project.
Like it so far. :-+
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I agree with TopQuark, recently I made my own JBC controller, and paracticed control of the tip, and surely - it overshoots. Ad the overshooting largely depends on the tip type and thermal resistance. It seems that some types of tip(245906)has thermocouple closer to soldering surface, and heater behind, which induces noticable lag. And for example 245741 behaves much more stable, because tip is larger so the thermal conductivity is better so the lag is lower. All those beautiful power bars, and special control loops are just a software gimmick because there are lags, and there has to be some pauses in pumping power to read thermocouple. Of course You can made it not to overshoot - implementing complicated control loops, but I'd say there is possibility, that the result would be less power pumped into solder joint, than in primitive proportional control. Which works allright for me by the way. There is regulated power window to some extent. And it is hard not to agree that jbc tips are expensive, but for me ersa looks a bit behind the competition.
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And to add insult to injury, those expensive JBC tips don’t last as long as Ersa tips, which mostly cost a lot less. (Like €30 for a JBC chisel vs €10 for an Ersa chisel. Even if you factor in the €5 screw holder thingie — I totally agree you should get one for each tip — it’s still half the price, and if you should ever wear out the tip, you can still reuse the holder.
After reading three pages of replies of you people experience using JBC at work I was wondering if I am a super heavy user. I have Hakko tips genuine and clones that I abused for years and still in very good condition. However I also have quite a few genuine JBC tips which I purchased directly from JBC Spain several times over the years they wear out earlier especially with lead free solder.
I use a few types of solder and on busy days I can be holding the iron for up 7 hours a day or until my eyes stops focusing. But JBC tips plating are just too fragile. My Hakko tips keeps soldier on but some heavy copper area I prefer to use JBC. It's so much more responsive thermally.
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The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy.
Your wording suggests that you think that overshoot is a consequence of it not being a cartridge heater system.
Only a part of it and I'm aware they have made design choices to mitigate some disadvantages that come with that.
But overshoot is NOT a consequence of not being a cartridge heater system. Cartridge heater systems can, and do, suffer from overshoot. In the case of JBC, significant overshoot.
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I'll stick with my opinion. On JBC it seems more deliberate rather than consequential.
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Every soldering station, where the temperature sensor is not directly located at the soldering point and where the soldering tip, along with the soldered component, has dynamically changing heat capacity, will have overshoot, and it is inevitable. But in practice, what does it matter? Has anyone actually encountered component damage as a result? I highly doubt it.
Manual soldering has a number of other, more important parameters, in which the most crucial one is... the human, who closes the feedback loop of the entire process.
If OP is looking for professional high-end equipment and has the proper experience, I recommend simply visiting a local distributor of each brand and requesting a product demonstration.
One does not purchase a quality suit based solely on internet reviews. You have to try it on and have it tailored to fit you personally. There is no such thing as the "best" soldering station. Each one has its own advantages and disadvantages, and everyone has different preferences and requirements.
Personally, I use the JBC system, and it is currently the most efficient solution for me (although at work, I more frequently use the induction station from Quick, which also performs well for most of my tasks). However, I am constantly tempted by METCAL, and I hope to try it out in the future :)
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I use a Weller WXR 3 station with tweezer, suction hot air and iron at work and it is great. The downside is a price of €3000.
I just bought a Atten GT-6200 wich is a dual station with tweezers for €479. My first impression is good but have some problems for a good workout (broken ankle hinders your mobility a bit).
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I'll stick with my opinion. On JBC it seems more deliberate rather than consequential.
Overshoot is a consequence of control design, not the mechanical design. Every tip, no matter whether cartridge or not, has mass, and that mass means thermal inertia. So your control system determines whether you overshoot or not. This is equally true for cartridge heaters as for traditional ones.
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I'll stick with my opinion. On JBC it seems more deliberate rather than consequential.
Overshoot is a consequence of control design, not the mechanical design. Every tip, no matter whether cartridge or not, has mass, and that mass means thermal inertia. So your control system determines whether you overshoot or not. This is equally true for cartridge heaters as for traditional ones.
The control loop likely takes in consideration that there is a decent thermal mass attached to the tip that needs to be heated. If you are going to measure the temperature using a thermocouple with an insignificant thermal mass, then you'll see an overshoot for sure because you are measuring an unloaded system. IOW: the control loop pushes an amount of energy into the tip under the assumption that the tip can dissipate that energy into the solder joint that is about to be made.
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I'll stick with my opinion. On JBC it seems more deliberate rather than consequential.
Overshoot is a consequence of control design, not the mechanical design. Every tip, no matter whether cartridge or not, has mass, and that mass means thermal inertia. So your control system determines whether you overshoot or not. This is equally true for cartridge heaters as for traditional ones.
The control loop likely takes in consideration that there is a decent thermal mass attached to the tip that needs to be heated. If you are going to measure the temperature using a thermocouple with an insignificant thermal mass, then you'll see an overshoot for sure because you are measuring an unloaded system. IOW: the control loop pushes an amount of energy into the tip under the assumption that the tip can dissipate that energy into the solder joint that is about to be made.
What’s your point? That is equally true for ALL heater configurations.
Shock seems to think that overshoot is a consequence of not being a cartridge heater system. That’s nonsense, and easily disproven by a) control theory in general and b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly. My point is that any overshoot isn’t a consequence of whether it’s a cartridge heater or not.
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My point is that people measure the temperature control performance wrong if they use a small thermocouple. These measurements don't take the entire system into account; the entire systems consists of a tip and a soldering joint.
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Every soldering station, where the temperature sensor is not directly located at the soldering point and where the soldering tip, along with the soldered component, has dynamically changing heat capacity, will have overshoot, and it is inevitable.
That is incorrect. It does not HAVE TO have overshoot. You just make regulation loop slower than process inertia...
In loop regulation parlance there is term "critically damped system". Which means system regulation loop is perfectly tailored to system trasfer characteristics..
Which is not what people who are marketing "our soldering iron is recovering faster than yours" want to do. They crank up it up and ignore overshoot. Read JBC here. Or some try to be a bit more balanced. Read Pace here. Some will let you choose. Read ERSA here. Or some use physical properties of bulk material and combine heater mass and sensor mass into same entity using Curie law and get almost perfect response. Read Metcal here.
Truth is, soldering tip temperature is not THAT critical. You can see that by virtue of people using temps from 240° to 380° to solder and all of them claiming it is perfect and that it gives good results.. Some will prefer super fast reflow and not mind horrible oxidation and violent flux burning, some will keep temperatures so low flux will not activate properly.
They will also have different tip life,but hey, they will all claim what they say is good, representative, data.
So some overshoot won't hurt. JBC tips do get shorter life, because of more violent temperature shocks, if you use them on "highish" end of range. Those that keep temp on lower end will have longer tip life... Etc etc.
I tried them all. Weller (was long time user), JBC, Metcal (fixed temp ones), PACE (current user), ERSA...
For instance I like soldering with temperature of 310-330°(Leaded). I fine tune it during work in that range.. Flux works well, solder flows well,flux burning and oxidation is not bad.
JBC - it works fine, but had problems with tip oxidation. Also ergonomically, handles feel like plastic toothpicks... Just felt bad.. Sorry. Problem of overshoot is handled by fact that you simply lower the temp few ° in comparison to other stations.
Metcal- it works great but my problem was that tip temperatures you can buy are either lower or higher of what I prefer.. Didn't try any of their adjustable stations. But that thing melts solder great for its power.
ERSA - It's a bit old school but works well. Inexpensive tips, good quality. It's just their good stations are expensive.
PACE- Good ergonomics. If you never tried the handle that after 7 hours of soldering is still dead cold, you should.. It has enough power for anything I do. If you set temp to 10°C more than JBC you get same performance (that is approx. how much JBC lies about temp). Good price for tips for cartridge based system. After few years, tips still hold as new.. I got it at good price, now it is more expensive.
Summary: ALL of the mentioned systems are PROFFESIONAL grade soldering stations.
They will all do good job. When purchasing, pay attention to prices, availability and prices of tips and consumables (For instance in EU, JBC and ERSA are local manufacturers. In Germany ERSA is ubiquitous, being local manufacturer) and ergonomics.
There are also few Chinese stations nowadays that will pretty much do same job. With them availability of spares and consumables is thing to worry about.
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Every soldering station, where the temperature sensor is not directly located at the soldering point and where the soldering tip, along with the soldered component, has dynamically changing heat capacity, will have overshoot, and it is inevitable.
That is incorrect. It does not HAVE TO have overshoot. You just make regulation loop slower than process inertia...
In loop regulation parlance there is term "critically damped system". Which means system regulation loop is perfectly tailored to system trasfer characteristics..
If you just consider the soldering iron by itself (connected to a negligible thermal load) then this is true. But if you want to model this properly, I think it is somewhat more complicated:
- the temperature of the tip is of secondary importance, compared to that of the workpiece
- the thermal resistance and the heat capacity of the workpiece can vary quite a bit
- the system is not time invariant: the load changes abruptly when contact is made or interrupted and more slowly when the solder melts
Of course, the control loop can be tailored for no overshoot when the tip is heated initially (it may just be slower). But at the time when the tip is abruptly removed from the solder joint, some overshoot is basically inevitable. And I think it is not quite so clear what the optimal response actually looks like. Some overshoot at the tip may actually be desirable in general to improve the response at the joint (though not tip life). :-//
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Every soldering station, where the temperature sensor is not directly located at the soldering point and where the soldering tip, along with the soldered component, has dynamically changing heat capacity, will have overshoot, and it is inevitable.
That is incorrect. It does not HAVE TO have overshoot. You just make regulation loop slower than process inertia...
In loop regulation parlance there is term "critically damped system". Which means system regulation loop is perfectly tailored to system trasfer characteristics..
If you just consider the soldering iron by itself (connected to a negligible thermal load) then this is true. But if you want to model this properly, I think it is somewhat more complicated:
- the temperature of the tip is of secondary importance, compared to that of the workpiece
- the thermal resistance and the heat capacity of the workpiece can vary quite a bit
- the system is not time invariant: the load changes abruptly when contact is made or interrupted and more slowly when the solder melts
Of course, the control loop can be tailored for no overshoot when the tip is heated initially (it may just be slower). But at the time when the tip is abruptly removed from the solder joint, some overshoot is basically inevitable. And I think it is not quite so clear what the optimal response actually looks like. Some overshoot at the tip may actually be desirable in general to improve the response at the joint (though not tip life). :-//
"process inertia... "
When using PID, derivative part serves to dump a huge spike of energy to speed up recovery process. That spike will not have overshoot in temperature if it is perfectly adjusted to process inertia.
With soldering iron, you don't know what process inertia is because soldering joint will contribute to it.
And after heating a very large joint and suddenly unloading there will be temperature rise. How much, will depend on tip thermal mass, heater thermal mass, thermal resistance between tip and heater and position of sensor.
If sensor is closer to tip, it will overshoot more but keep less temp drop at load. If sensor is in heater, low overshoot, and temp drop at the tip at load will depend solely on thermal resistance between tip and heater......
It will always be compromise and will vary for same station with change of tips.
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My point is that people measure the temperature control performance wrong if they use a small thermocouple. These measurements don't take the entire system into account; the entire systems consists of a tip and a soldering joint.
What makes you think that people haven’t done that?
Tip temperature thermometers are for measuring setpoint accuracy, not overshoot. I never said I used a tip thermometer to measure overshoot.
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The question is, when might the overshoots become "dangerous" and for whom?
If it is regulated quickly enough, then it is unlikely to be dangerous for the soldering tip or the component.
At most for the heating element itself, but I can't imagine that this was not taken into account during development.
.
.
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We had calibrated our soldering stations ourselves for a long time.
For this purpose, the tip was heated together with a calibrated sensor in a small tin pot and solder was fed.
Everything else brought unbelievable values.
(Calibration in the sense of set/indicated temperature and the actual at the tip).
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Shock seems to think that overshoot is a consequence of not being a cartridge heater system. That’s nonsense, and easily disproven by a) control theory in general and b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly. My point is that any overshoot isn’t a consequence of whether it’s a cartridge heater or not.
I feel you are discussing something I never stated. Here is what I said with the relevant part highlighted.
The upsides, the station looks fairly easy to read and operate, good power, a separate stand. The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy. In terms of what is acceptable or not you have to use your own judgement.
I was talking about heating speed and regulation on that specific station and you seem to be focusing more on my opinion on a part of the downsides of non integrated tips. I meant by my follow up reply I felt "only a part" of the overshoot is a consequence of it not being a cartridge heater system, and again I was referring to that specific model.
JBC's charts showed a 125C overshoot on the original Icon design and SDG in his video showed a quite obvious induced 70C overshoot on his Icon 2 channel station (on the fastest heating setting). So I felt it better to say "to get that heating speed (i.e. maximum performance) it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy".
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The IPC standard sets out some of the guidelines, I don't have access to the latest one IPC-J-STD-001H but would be interesting to see where they are at on it.
The last one I read (I think was IPC-J-STD-001F) was something like to maintain temperature control of +/-10C (18F) between points. It was a bit wordy but wide overshoots were basically nope.
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b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly.
[/quote]
Could you please reference this documentation? I would be very interested in seeing how badly my JBC station is performing.
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b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly.
Could you please reference this documentation? I would be very interested in seeing how badly my JBC station is performing.
[/quote]I'll stick with my opinion. On JBC it seems more deliberate rather than consequential.
Overshoot is a consequence of control design, not the mechanical design. Every tip, no matter whether cartridge or not, has mass, and that mass means thermal inertia. So your control system determines whether you overshoot or not. This is equally true for cartridge heaters as for traditional ones.
The control loop likely takes in consideration that there is a decent thermal mass attached to the tip that needs to be heated. If you are going to measure the temperature using a thermocouple with an insignificant thermal mass, then you'll see an overshoot for sure because you are measuring an unloaded system. IOW: the control loop pushes an amount of energy into the tip under the assumption that the tip can dissipate that energy into the solder joint that is about to be made.
What’s your point? That is equally true for ALL heater configurations.
Shock seems to think that overshoot is a consequence of not being a cartridge heater system. That’s nonsense, and easily disproven by a) control theory in general and b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly. My point is that any overshoot isn’t a consequence of whether it’s a cartridge heater or not.
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b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly.
Could you please reference this documentation? I would be very interested in seeing how badly my JBC station is performing.
It’s been mentioned numerous times over the years here in the forums and in various YouTube videos. I don’t have the sources saved, alas.
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Shock seems to think that overshoot is a consequence of not being a cartridge heater system. That’s nonsense, and easily disproven by a) control theory in general and b) the fact that JBC stations are well documented to overshoot significantly. My point is that any overshoot isn’t a consequence of whether it’s a cartridge heater or not.
I feel you are discussing something I never stated. Here is what I said with the relevant part highlighted.
If that is the case then I apologize.
I feel you are discussing something I never stated. Here is what I said with the relevant part highlighted.
The upsides, the station looks fairly easy to read and operate, good power, a separate stand. The downsides is it's not a cartridge tip and to get that heating speed it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy. In terms of what is acceptable or not you have to use your own judgement.
I was talking about heating speed and regulation on that specific station and you seem to be focusing more on my opinion on a part of the downsides of non integrated tips. I meant by my follow up reply I felt "only a part" of the overshoot is a consequence of it not being a cartridge heater system, and again I was referring to that specific model.
JBC's charts showed a 125C overshoot on the original Icon design and SDG in his video showed a quite obvious induced 70C overshoot on his Icon 2 channel station (on the fastest heating setting). So I felt it better to say "to get that heating speed (i.e. maximum performance) it comes at the cost of regulation accuracy".
The key difference is that the I-Con stations give you the choice of three heating profiles. You can choose the most aggressive one with huge overshoot, or the gentlest one that doesn’t overshoot, or the default middle one with mild overshoot. So if you choose the highest setting, it’s a deliberate decision by the user, who knows their application and whether it’s tolerant of overshoot. (I have mine on the middle setting and it’s still super fast.) The middle setting feels completely comparable to JBC in everyday use. You do not have to resort to the highest power setting to have it perform comparably in practice.
Nobody said non-JBC stations have no overshoot. But what is well understood is that part of JBC’s great performance comes from the thinner (i.e. less durable) plating on their tips, and part from fairly aggressive heating with significant overshoot (which IIRC they hide by not displaying a tip temperature above the set temperature). I’m not aware of any JBC station giving a choice of heating profile.
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As an aside, Ersa has announced the I-Con Mark II series, which claims 20% better performance than the originals. They’re slated to ship in July. They use the bayonet-mounted series 142 tips introduced with the I-Con Trace station. No info so far on whether Mark II handpieces can be used on original stations.
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More interesting for me would be to know if the chiptool would also work on my I-con 1 station.
From the technical properties, this should not be a problem at all, but I still hesitate to simply order the tool.
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Page 17
https://www.ersa-shop.com/additional_files/Ersa_Tools_Cataloq_2021_english.pdf (https://www.ersa-shop.com/additional_files/Ersa_Tools_Cataloq_2021_english.pdf)
Page 24
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/fileadmin/medien/members_final/Electronics/9_Medien/9.5_Kataloge/9.5.1_Tools/Ersa-Tools-Catalog-en.pdf (https://ts.kurtzersa.com/fileadmin/medien/members_final/Electronics/9_Medien/9.5_Kataloge/9.5.1_Tools/Ersa-Tools-Catalog-en.pdf)
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Back when it was still called i-Con (and not i-Con 1) they actually used to sell a bundle that included the Chip Tool:
https://www.myvolt.de/pdf/Ersa-Katalog-2007.pdf (https://www.myvolt.de/pdf/Ersa-Katalog-2007.pdf) (p. 21)
It is, however, entirely possible that they removed either some circuitry or else disabled it in firmware with the newer model. And it has certainly never been officially supported.
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That sounds absolutely like a case of contact their support to confirm, as well as being very clear in correspondence your model, serial number and if possible firmware in case there was indeed a hardware or software change.
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Hi,
I have compared the technical data and the instructions of I-Con 1 and I-Con 1 Vario and come to the conclusion that it can only be due to the software that you can not use a chip tool on the I-Con 1.
I will still write to Ersa and ask directly, but if that should be so, this is a user unfriendly situation.
If you buy an I-Con 1 station and later the Chiptool in mind, you have to realize, bad luck, buy another station ?
I would understand it, the Vario version would be the successor and accordingly the without variant would no longer be available.
But you can buy both versions in the Ersa store ...
The price difference is about 80€.
80€ supposedly saved to find out later, you can get rid of the station again and put 450€ to be able to connect another tool.
This can not be serious ersa... :P
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The Vario version supports Vario tools. You can use the non-Vario chip tool with the non-Vario version.
See: https://ts.kurtzersa.de/electronics-production-equipment/abgekuendigte-ersa-produkte/produkt-details/i-con-2-3.html, (https://ts.kurtzersa.de/electronics-production-equipment/abgekuendigte-ersa-produkte/produkt-details/i-con-2-3.html,) where the non-V station is used with the non-V chip tool.
E: I was partially wrong. The i-CON1 does not support anything but the i-Tool. The i-CON2 does.
Full compatibility list:
(https://i.kane.cx/rkp1iB)
Seems like the Chip-Tool works regardless though: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549 (https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549)
Just buy a V version. The Vario tool is better anyway.
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Seems like the Chip-Tool works regardless though: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549 (https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549)
I suspect they confuse older discontinued I-CON with I-CON1.
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Hi,
I have compared the technical data and the instructions of I-Con 1 and I-Con 1 Vario and come to the conclusion that it can only be due to the software that you can not use a chip tool on the I-Con 1.
They have different hardware, not just firmware. Also it's V, not vario. Vario variants are different from V. Considering that V stations also support old specialty tools, most likely vario tools require different hardware similar to older tools. There is a reason why I-CON2 supports specialty tools only on a single port, that port has more wires going to it and also can use thermocouple directly. While i-tool uses a single wire for powering circuit within the iron and half-duplex communication. https://habr.com/ru/articles/369947/
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Seems like the Chip-Tool works regardless though: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549 (https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549)
I suspect they confuse older discontinued I-CON with I-CON1.
I think so.
IIRC, they first released the I-Con, which did support other tools. Then they released the I-Con 1 (with support for other tools removed) and essentially renamed the original I-Con to I-Con 1V.
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Hi,
I have compared the technical data and the instructions of I-Con 1 and I-Con 1 Vario and come to the conclusion that it can only be due to the software that you can not use a chip tool on the I-Con 1.
No, the circuitry for the other tools is not there. They use different pins in the connector, and in the I-Con 1, those pins aren’t even populated in the socket.
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Seems like the Chip-Tool works regardless though: https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549 (https://www.mikrocontroller.net/topic/383549)
I suspect they confuse older discontinued I-CON with I-CON1.
I think so.
IIRC, they first released the I-Con, which did support other tools. Then they released the I-Con 1 (with support for other tools removed) and essentially renamed the original I-Con to I-Con 1V.
Well, more like they muddied waters. After initial I-CON and I-CON 2 it became really confusing. 1V besides supporting vario tools it also has SD card. Pricing of V lineup is higher too. I would say I-CON 1V replaces original I-CON if pricing was not significantly higher for V variants, especially at the beginning. It sort of replaces I-CON and at the same time it does not. I-CON 2 bounded with single iron is more of a replacement for original I-CON than I-CON 1V
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My joy about getting a soldering station in mint condition for little money has vanished with it. :P ;)
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Hi,
Small update regarding my experience with the I-Con 1 station.
My initial enthusiasm has rather given way to disillusionment.
It is certainly incomparably better than my previous station and as far as normal soldering work is concerned, it takes nothing with the Weller WX1/2 and the normal soldering iron to - What is no feat, that both have the same principle.
But I have the daily comparison at work with SMD soldering with the Weller RT cartridges.
And that is a difference in SMD soldering.
In a height that I can not ignore or talk nicely.
Means that I will not invest further in the I-CON series (keyword SMD tweezers and matching station), I will continue to use mine for now - But put money back for a cartridge system.
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Yeah, this is what can happen when you get swayed by personal opinions.
SDG is the one to trust here, as he has actually tested and shown his results.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/soldering-station-jbc-ersa-or-weller-decsions-decisions/msg4769036/#msg4769036 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/soldering-station-jbc-ersa-or-weller-decsions-decisions/msg4769036/#msg4769036)
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I got JBC CDB and it is amazing. Excellent soldering experience with it. Just one request, if somebody own JBC compact station. How much second does it take when you turn it on to when logo appears?
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Hi,
Small update regarding my experience with the I-Con 1 station.
My initial enthusiasm has rather given way to disillusionment.
It is certainly incomparably better than my previous station and as far as normal soldering work is concerned, it takes nothing with the Weller WX1/2 and the normal soldering iron to - What is no feat, that both have the same principle.
But I have the daily comparison at work with SMD soldering with the Weller RT cartridges.
And that is a difference in SMD soldering.
In a height that I can not ignore or talk nicely.
Means that I will not invest further in the I-CON series (keyword SMD tweezers and matching station), I will continue to use mine for now - But put money back for a cartridge system.
What issues are you running into? Most of the soldering I do with my Ersa is SMD…
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How much second does it take when you turn it on to when logo appears?
About 3 seconds for the logo and 6 seconds to see temp CD-2BE.
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Just in case, are you aware of power setting? Higher power gives faster response but higher overshoot (for comparison JBC overshoots like hell but hides it, ERSA shows temperature as is). Also when you compare, you should use the same tip type and size, slight difference in tip size makes a lot of difference in thermal transfer. If you use conical (hate them) for SMD, then there is high power version of 0.3mm tip which is very different from the rest of their conical tips. https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102pdlf03-1.html
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What issues are you running into?
It doesn't flow properly, as if the heat drains into the mass too quickly and then the tip gets too cold.
The temperature display itself hardly changes.
At set 320°C, I don't want to stay at the pin of a component for so long until a conclusive solder joint is finally made.
If I take a thicker tip(0.7 instead of 0.4mm) it gets naturally better, but the tip is sometimes too thick.
Then the board taken to work, soldered with the Weller, for this also 0.4mm tip selected - No problem, I then do not even need flux.
A few seconds and ready.
And the station is set to 280°C...
Without adjusting any controller parameters.
I have been soldering every day at work for 22 years, for almost 10 years with the said Weller station.
So I know how it works, but the thing with the parameters I can still try out, I'm not used to that because that was never an issue with the Weller.
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I always have the Ersa stations set to 330 deg C. 320 will be too cold. Also the tips you are using are too small to have good heat flow. The round ones with a 45 degree edge work much better for soldering SMT.
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320 will be too cold
10 kelvins less...
Ersa offers accredited training for soldering.
Our colleagues take part regularly and do you know what soldering temperature is recommended there?
270°C....
And it works, very well even.
With the Weller stations they have and now all those who have to solder every day.
(We also have an Ersa rework station, with video cameras and temperature sensors, adjustable temperature curves.
There, the peak is set to 290C° max after all).
I will look again which soldering tips there are still to those I already have (0.4, 0.7, 1, 1.6).
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The problem is that the temperature setting isn't what you get at the tip (as has been discussed at length before). For Ersa 330 degrees is the most ideal temperature in my experience. Colder and the joints take too long to flow (causing the part to heat up more than necessary), hotter and the flux will burn up before it can do it's job. But it all begins with a big enough tip to get enough heat into the joint.
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320 will be too cold
10 kelvins less...
Ersa offers accredited training for soldering.
Our colleagues take part regularly and do you know what soldering temperature is recommended there?
270°C....
And it works, very well even.
With the Weller stations they have and now all those who have to solder every day.
(We also have an Ersa rework station, with video cameras and temperature sensors, adjustable temperature curves.
There, the peak is set to 290C° max after all).
I will look again which soldering tips there are still to those I already have (0.4, 0.7, 1, 1.6).
10 degrees makes a huge difference when you're on the low side. Not to say lower temperature does not necessarily mean safer. You could be overheating things by applying heat for too long instead of doing the job quickly with higher temperature.
270oC soldering iron temperature is totally unusable for lead-free solder. Then you mix in rework station in which is entirely different beast and not comparable at all. From your vague description it seems to be IR rework station. And for that mentioning 290oC seems strange as rework station should read actual PCB temperature which normally should not go above 260oC. Again, soldering iron temperature and actual PCB temperature are two very different and only loosely related things (without other important things taken into account). Neither heating a single pad for a short time is comparable to heating a large area for prolonged time (full blown reflow cycle).
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Curious to which Weller station model, which handpiece and which tip number?
There are so many variables but try that power setting try first. If you hadn't thought of it, look at tips on a tip thermometer, with a kimwipe or paper towel moisten with distilled water and dab to check recovery. Use solder from the same spool, same flux and cleaning process etc.
It's hard to work with exact temps because mass varies pcb to pcb and the displays are indicative and don't perfectly track during soldering. Another good way of testing is start with an easy pcb and clean and flux etc, touch the tip for a few seconds and dab solder next to it on the pcb. The better the spread of solder the better the joints will be. Increase temp as required just don't exceed the flux temp.
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What issues are you running into?
It doesn't flow properly, as if the heat drains into the mass too quickly and then the tip gets too cold.
The temperature display itself hardly changes.
At set 320°C, I don't want to stay at the pin of a component for so long until a conclusive solder joint is finally made.
If I take a thicker tip(0.7 instead of 0.4mm) it gets naturally better, but the tip is sometimes too thick.
Then the board taken to work, soldered with the Weller, for this also 0.4mm tip selected - No problem, I then do not even need flux.
A few seconds and ready.
And the station is set to 280°C...
Without adjusting any controller parameters.
I have been soldering every day at work for 22 years, for almost 10 years with the said Weller station.
So I know how it works, but the thing with the parameters I can still try out, I'm not used to that because that was never an issue with the Weller.
0.4mm is a very, very small tip. I have the 0.4mm chisel and I find it to have, um, very limited use. It’s such a thin tip that it’s hard to get heat into the very point. (The difference in Ersa vs. Weller 0.4mm performance could be differences in plating thickness, which in such a tiny tip could make up a significant percentage of the overall thickness: Ersa uses thick iron plating which sacrifices thermal performance for improved durability. Weller possibly chooses to optimize for thermal performance over durability.) For the 0.4mm tips, turn up the heat. A lot. The thin neck of the tip will reduce the temperature at the point of the tip.
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0.4mm is crazy small. I use a 2.4mm chisel tip for almost everything, though I do have a 1.2mm I use on rare occasion.
I wonder if any of you with those tiny tips have verified the temperature with a soldering tip thermometer.
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For context, since OP didn’t specify which 0.4mm tip they have, here are the three Ersa offers in that size.
Chisel:
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102cdlf04-1.html
Pencil:
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102pdlf04-1.html
Extended pencil:
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102pdlf04l-1.html
As you can see, the chisel in particular is anything but a thermally optimized shape. It’s for when you have to get into extremely tight spaces. But that long, thin shape means the heat needs to be turned up a lot.
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These two tip shapes work wonders for soldering SMT:
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf20-1.html (https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf20-1.html)
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf40-1.html (https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf40-1.html)
You can get in really tight spaces and heat both the pad and the part at the same time.
I only use needle-sized tips when soldering hair-thin wires to fine pitch connectors or things like a QFN mounted dead-bug style for prototyping.
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0.4mm is crazy small.
Today I had soldered the complete circuit board of the heater of "our" Voltage reference project during the breaks at work.
From the 0805 capacitor, over the tiny ICs to the large transistor Q1, everything with the same tip.
Tomorrow I will show a picture of it.
This was all soldered with a 0.4 (or 0.6mm, I would have to measure) RT tip, without any problems and at a temperature of 280°C or 300°C for Q1.
@others:
I read your posts and will go to the links this weekend and look at them, thanks for the support!
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These two tip shapes work wonders for soldering SMT:
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf20-1.html (https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf20-1.html)
https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf40-1.html (https://ts.kurtzersa.com/electronics-production-equipment/soldering-tools-accessories/soldering-desoldering-tips/soldering-tip-series-102/produkt-details/0102adlf40-1.html)
The worst cookie screen blocker I've seen
Edit: no i did not get to viewing the URLs you provided because of the blocker.
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JBC C210 you can pump about 15W into a 0.4mm tip (ksger clone, minimal overshoot)
Metcal is ~20W
Hakko T12 you'll be lucky with 6W
The weller RT tip looks of similar design and sizing to the C210. So it would make sense it performs decently. You could measure the power draw if you want.
In the case of a thermocouple based tip, it kind of has to be designed to perform well with such a small tip geometry. You want a "microsoldering" tip in these cases.
The worst cookie screen blocker I've seen
Edit: no i did not get to viewing the URLs you provided because of the blocker.
Scroll down or press tab, not that hard. Or take five seconds to block them all: https://lifehacker.com/you-can-block-those-annoying-cookie-banners-on-every-we-1848936142
"Click the uBlock Origin icon and go to Settings > Filter lists > Annoyances. Enable EasyList Cookie to hide cookie banners."
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Tomorrow I will show a picture of it.
OK a little bit later.. ;)
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Now think about the temperature gradient along that tip and what it does for it's endurance. It would be great if Ersa had similar soldering systems that can pump much energy in such a small tip. But they don't as it kicks the crap out of the tips.
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The tip shown here is one of the first that I ordered with the station at the time.
Works flawlessly to this day.
The series is really not bad, but Weller also knows that, it costs accordingly.
So station and soldering iron / tweezer.
The tips with the integrated heating element are not so expensive.
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Tomorrow I will show a picture of it.
OK a little bit later.. ;)
Solder joints do not look good at all. Many of them look like not enough heat was applied. Also it looks like you have applied a lot of pressure, likely because solder was melting poorly, thus damaging solder resist in at least 4 places. Applying force to the tip is a very poor practice, not only it damages PCB, it causes premature wear of the tip. If you feel a need to apply pressure, increase the temperature FFS or change the tip to something larger.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/soldering-station-jbc-ersa-or-weller-decsions-decisions/?action=dlattach;attach=1849996;image)
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Hi,
Also it looks like you have applied a lot of pressure
No.
You can't really see the condition of the solder joints from above, so we use e.g. digital camera inspection systems only for comparison regarding the correct assembly.
The solder joint inspection is still done "classically" using a magnifying glass or stereo microscope, so that the board can be viewed from different angles.
C1 has indeed taken too much tin on one side, but all solder joints are properly wetted, on Q1 the solder tip was only at the solder pads.
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Also that's not a normal weller RT conical cartridge but a thick cone high performance version. If you want comparable results from Ersa, either use 1.2mm chisel tip or that 0.3mm cone tip I mentioned previously (I prefer 1.6mm chisel down to 0603 SMD). Not usual skinny conical tips which improve reach in tight places but drastically worsen heat transfer.
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but all solder joints are properly wetted, on Q1 the solder tip was only at the solder pads.
Far from that. There is no proper fillet on the heel (back side) of Q1 terminals even though there is an excessive amount of solder where side fillets are supposed to be. Solder must flow all over the pad even if you apply heat on top of the terminal. If solder does not flow, there is not enough heat. There is too much solder on many solder joints but at the same time solder did not flow all over those pads, again not enough heat. There is an uneven lump of solder on pin 3 of U1 which is another sign of not enough heat.