Author Topic: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815  (Read 619267 times)

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Offline ermeneuta

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #800 on: August 29, 2016, 06:13:17 pm »
Are we sure that the hardware is different ? I read the opposite on another discussion group, not specifically related to the Rigol.

Alberto

 

Offline ermeneuta

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #801 on: August 29, 2016, 08:35:22 pm »
Are we sure that the hardware is different ? I read the opposite on another discussion group, not specifically related to the Rigol.

Alberto

Huuu... it looks like the message I was answering to has disappeared... was it removed by the originator ?

Alberto

 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #802 on: August 29, 2016, 08:40:22 pm »
Alberto -
you've only got to read the specs of the 815 vs. the 832 carefully, especially concerning the weight of the two units. Unfortunately, they are not identical. I think Shahriar also did a teardown of a higher-frequency DSA800 model and if I remember correctly, there were one or two more separate metal RF boxes inside than in the 815.

And now for some interesting news: About ten days ago, I sent an email to Rigol (their international contact email) and complained about the lost trial time of the "bonus functions" (after I updated to 00.01.17 and the Wp pin on the FRAM was disconnected from Vdd again of course). Today, I received an email from Rigol Germany with the hint that it isn't always a good idea to install the latest firmware since side-effects like the observed loss of trial time may always occur. But they included new trial licenses for the lost options  :clap: . So far I didn't have the time to install them (because it will take more than necessary for just entering the codes you bet...). I'll post new findings as I proceed.

Cheers,
Thomas


Edit: clarification
« Last Edit: August 30, 2016, 05:34:23 am by TurboTom »
 

Offline ermeneuta

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #803 on: August 29, 2016, 11:06:07 pm »
Alberto -
you've only got to read the specs of the 815 vs. the 832 carefully, especially concerning the weight of the two units. Unfortunately, they are not identical. I think Shahriar also did a teardown of a higher-frequency DSA800 model and if I remember correctly, there were one or two more separate metal RF boxes inside than in the 815.

Well, this unfortunately closes the issue... too bad... if the weight is different, then obviously the two hardware are not the same...

Thanks for the clarification.

Now I have to find a way to enable the SWR option, and the 10 Hz RBW on my 1.15 firmware. Going to 1.17 will give me the 10 Hz RBW, but will wipe away the remaining 34 or so hours of the trial... at least this is what I understand from previous posts...

Alberto
 
 

Offline ermeneuta

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #804 on: August 31, 2016, 09:37:26 am »
I found the attached message on another forum, which was originated from a knowledgeable person.

Comments anyone ?

Alberto

============================================================
Hi Frank, all

Actually Rigol appear to make only two types of SA (Spectrum Analyser),
one with a tracking generator, one without.

The actual specification is defined from its software, ie its a FPGA
(Field Programmable Gate Array) device controlling & operating an SDR
(Transceiver when the Tracking Generator is installed). The FPGA
processor also drives the display & network interface.

Certainly early versions of the 815 (1.5GHz) SA could be "up-rated" to
an 830 (3.0GHz) SA. I have seen one of these and it certainly works as
well at 3HGz as it does at 1.5GHz. Indeed a search of the web will
reveal some useful info on how to do this "mod".

Newer software updates seem to have a checksum or similar procedure that
prevent this mod taking place.(i.e. only the correct software can be
installed) I suspect as a means of revenue protection.

HTH
============================================================


 

Offline thebobster

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #805 on: September 23, 2016, 09:32:26 pm »
I have been scouring the user manual and various communities and cannot find the answer to the following question:

On the DSA-815, is there a way to capture the frequencies of momentary signals within a given frequency range?

I am trying to capture frequencies in use within a given band and log them and am using Peak Tables and am trying to set a “peak hold” to track frequencies of short-duration ephemeral signals and continuously display or log them, as the peak table displays frequencies of signal it detects but clear off the screen immediately, before I have a chance to record them.

Also, regarding option trial times.  Does the time decrement continuously when the SA is running, or only when an advanced option that uses the trial license iis enabled?   

Thanks in advance!
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #806 on: September 23, 2016, 10:59:22 pm »
On the DSA-815, is there a way to capture the frequencies of momentary signals within a given frequency range?

I am trying to capture frequencies in use within a given band and log them and am using Peak Tables and am trying to set a “peak hold” to track frequencies of short-duration ephemeral signals and continuously display or log them, as the peak table displays frequencies of signal it detects but clear off the screen immediately, before I have a chance to record them.

I think you need the trace type to be "Max Hold" when you wish to keep all the peaks in the table, "Clear Write" will not, as you have seen.
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #807 on: September 24, 2016, 08:33:51 am »
I have been scouring the user manual and various communities and cannot find the answer to the following question:

On the DSA-815, is there a way to capture the frequencies of momentary signals within a given frequency range?

I am trying to capture frequencies in use within a given band and log them and am using Peak Tables and am trying to set a “peak hold” to track frequencies of short-duration ephemeral signals and continuously display or log them, as the peak table displays frequencies of signal it detects but clear off the screen immediately, before I have a chance to record them.

This strongly depends on the duration of your momentary signals vs. the scan time of the analyzer. Since the Rigol DSA is a sweeping spectrum analyzer, it looks at a given time interval only at one frequency. There are SAs that analyze a whole interval at a time (FFT anlyzers) and depending on the "instantaneous span" they get really dear. So as long as your signal duration is longer than the sweep time of your analyzer over the relevant span, you will be fine with the "Max Hold" trace setting as "xrunner" pointed out. If not, it's a mere coincidence if you catch the signal or if you miss it.

Quote
Also, regarding option trial times.  Does the time decrement continuously when the SA is running, or only when an advanced option that uses the trial license iis enabled?   

Thanks in advance!

As far as I know, the trial time is running down as long as the DSA is switched on. For the latest firmware, it isn't even clear if there are trials available. As yet, I wasn't able to activate the recently provided new trial licenses since I couldn't delete the old, (after the firmware update) expired ones. But I didn't have much time to look at that yet.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Offline autoelectra

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #808 on: September 24, 2016, 02:56:15 pm »
Hello,

Can anybody supply me with DSA815 firmware 01.16?

I have a DSA815 with the newer boot loader 01.04, and would like to retain my trial options.
But of course now only the latest FW 01.17 is available from the official download sites...

Please mail me the firmware (e-mail is in my profile), or just post it here on the forum…

Thanks & best regards, oliver
 

Online Gertjan

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #809 on: September 24, 2016, 05:15:22 pm »
Hi autoelectra,

I sent you a PM with link to the requested firmware.
Let me now if you have any problems.

regards, Gertjan.
 

Offline autoelectra

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #810 on: September 24, 2016, 07:02:33 pm »
Dear Gertjan,

Thank you very much for help, it works fine.
I think, to get the trial options with bootloader 01.04 and version 16 again, it´s important, that the solder-jumper has been set before the updating to version 17.

Best regards
Oliver
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #811 on: September 24, 2016, 07:32:36 pm »
Dear Gertjan,

Thank you very much for help, it works fine.
I think, to get the trial options with bootloader 01.04 and version 16 again, it´s important, that the solder-jumper has been set before the updating to version 17.

Best regards
Oliver

Doesn't make a difference -- I tried both ways, always the remaining trial time was set to zero.
But for me, the 10Hz RBW outweighs the loss of the trial options. Sooner or later, I guess, a way to permanently enable the options will be found anyway.

Cheers,
Thomas
 

Online Gertjan

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #812 on: September 25, 2016, 04:45:34 pm »
Later DSA815 hardware versions do indeed have a lower noise floor!

There were indications that later hardware versions of the DSA815 are having a lower noise floor than earlier versions.

I checked this when I was at a friend, who has an older DSA815 (main board version 0.04). I compared his noise floor with my DSA815 (main board version 0.08).

And indeed, the noise floor of my DSA815 was about 10dB lower!
I compared at different frequency ranges, spans and RBW's.
We also checked the built-in pre-amplifier, but couldn't find any differences.

So, it seems that Rigol is a manufacturer who is silently improving his products. 
(Earlier photo's showed that later hardware versions do have better input protection. Off coarse the DSA815 is a best selling product for them, for a long time now.)

Regards, Gertjan.
 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #813 on: September 25, 2016, 04:59:39 pm »
So the noise floor of the Rigol is getting closer to the Siglent?

Initially there was 20 dB difference between both. Now the Siglent is still 10 dB better?
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #814 on: September 25, 2016, 05:00:07 pm »
Loss of Options with FW .17 and recovering them with FW .16    I don't have a DSA815 with Boot Loader version .04, although this is what I understand from reading the results of those with it:
 
If you have U1105 pins 7 and 8 soldered together when you install FW .17 the Options will be gone, but they will come back when FW .16 is re-installed.  In this case U1105 pins 7 and 8 have been connected together at all times during this period.

If you go into FW .17 with U1105 pins 7 and 8 disconnected and install FW .17, or you disconnect them while FW .17 is installed, the Options will be gone forever.  And in this case it won't help to go back to FW .16 (game over).

Please, if anyone knows that if this is post is wrong, let me know, and I will delete the post.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #815 on: September 26, 2016, 08:32:56 am »
So the noise floor of the Rigol is getting closer to the Siglent?

Initially there was 20 dB difference between both. Now the Siglent is still 10 dB better?

Who knows.
Without comparable data we can only quess.

Here is Siglent SSA3000X
Center frequency 1296 MHz (RA  23cm band)
Span 100kHz
RBW=VBW 10Hz
Atten 0
Ref level -70dBm
Traces A and D  detector VideoAverage
Traces B and C  detector Sample  (as typical for DANL measurement this sample detector output Trace averaged 50 times)

Traces A and B   Pre Amplifier OFF
Traces C and D   Pre Amplifier ON

SSA Input terminated using 50ohm N terminator.






These are Displayed Average Noise Levels (DANL) using 10Hz Resolution Bandwidth filter (-3dB 10Hz  and 3/60dB shape factor 1:<5)
If normalize these to 1Hz gaussian like  RBW  just subtract 10dB (This method can not use for normalize RBW level to Noise BW level. Some spectrum analyzer may use this wrong method for noise levels)
If normalize these to 1Hz Noise BW correctly  then subtract around 7.5dB (if right corr factor is ~2.5dB (if want more deep explanation start with Agilent AN-150)

I hope someone can do - exactly - same with new generation DSA815
« Last Edit: September 26, 2016, 08:57:04 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #816 on: September 26, 2016, 09:53:31 pm »
Since time didn´t permit more testing tonight, I only recorded the trace with the sample detector, averaged over ten sweeps since the Rigol is much slower at 10Hz RBW than the Siglent. In order to keep scan times within reason, I manually increased sweep speed at 100kHz span (hence getting the "uncal" warning) but I also added a 1kHz span measurement with the proper sweep speed to show the results are the same for all practical means. I would say the differences regarding the noise floor between the two SAs are marginal (in this configuration that is). My DSA815 is a 00.08 hardware and it´s running the 00.01.17 firmware.

And now for some very peculiar news: The evaluation options that got disabled after the firmware update miraculously decided to become active again  :o ! Don´t ask me, I don´t know why and how this has happened. A collegue was using the SA for some time (he´s an experienced EE but not too familiar with the SA). When I powered up the device today, the trial options were online again and of course I immediately shorted the WP pin of the FRAM -- once again the trial time is frozen  ;D

I can provide an FRAM dump if anyone´s interested.

Cheers,
Thomas


(Edit: Typos and clarification)
« Last Edit: September 27, 2016, 09:07:46 am by TurboTom »
 

Offline egonotto

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #817 on: September 27, 2016, 03:57:51 pm »
Hi

attached some pictures from DSA815
As it is very slow i changed sweep speed

Best regards
egonotto

 

Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #818 on: September 27, 2016, 08:00:31 pm »
Who is giving the Rigol vs Siglent noise floor verdict based on the screenshots? :)
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #819 on: September 28, 2016, 08:22:57 am »
Who is giving the Rigol vs Siglent noise floor verdict based on the screenshots? :)

It is not aat all so simple that we can set SA for some settings and then other spectrum and look images and then give simply answer.
There is many things what affect to displayed noise level.  It is also important to understand what is noise and how spectrum analyzer work and so on. Basic thing is that original noise is random and chaos.  Now if we use say example peak detector, what is mostly as default when we use SA. Because noise is chaotic random freq and random level peaks, it depends how long time we collect data using some limited filter. Spectrum is sweeping (or sequantially fast  hopping). More fast sweep and less collected data for every frequency point. So propability to just detect highest peak with this freq spot is low. If stop (or slower speed) and collect more data it takes some amount of time before there exist most high peak.  Simply it can say, more slow sweep and more high noise level you see until reach peak max noise with this noise what is there. (it is never theoretical pure random white noise, it exist only in theory books)
Also it need note that different spectrum analyzers may have different BW filter shape. Also if go to more deep also detectors may have differencies.

If I have here class room I can demonstrate it easy. Using different speeds and using different Detectors and different trace draw modes. If start with P-Pk detector and then use Max-Hold. Start and look how this noise level start from low and start rise. Wait a 10s it is more high, go to coffee break and come back it is sure reached top. Just because wo collect more and more data from random noise Peaks.

For random noise level: Peak Detector is (mostly) wrong. But, because mostly for sinusoidal type of signals we use peak detector it is of course important because noise peaks are what we then see in practice. But, we need also know that many things affect what is level what we see.   For characterize SA base noise most good is VideoAverage and level setting Log Power.  It give same average if use detector mode Sample. But if usse this it may need least 50 time Trace Averaging for reliable tell noise averace. DANL is Displayed(!) Average Noise Level. 


But before write one book about noise and SA lets stop it.  Real apple to apple comparation between different equipments is easy but also difficult. many things affect some amount. So nitpicking with some 1-3 dB's is waste of time. Until we start doing science and really have instrumets for make science. In many cases I can see Siglent is bit better if look overall noise levels but


I want take here now one example. @egonotto  first image.
There is 1MHz RBW, 0-1500MHz range and sweep time 50ms (bit fast, perhaps compromize with accuracy and speed so that speed have more weight)


Hi

attached some pictures from DSA815
As it is very slow i changed sweep speed

Best regards
egonotto






Here same with Siglent.  (first image)


But now also, using different sweep speeds and detector mode P-Peak as used also in Rigol.
I have used 24ms, 96ms (UNCAL is for these speeds), 1s and 10s sweep time (over 1500MHz Span)
I have added 434MHz -40dBm signal so that it can also see that SA detect it.
(There read UNCAL because SA normal speed is over ~140ms for this span for this accuracy what designer have wanted to reach when he select nominal speed for default)
In this case UNCAL is because 24ms is really too fast for reliable peak measurements. There exist also nearly blind spots in freq span with this speed but, this is just for demonstrate how speed affect to visible noise level)




Then




There is also other thing . There is two sweep modes in Siglent, Sweep and FFT sweep.
There may be (and also there is) noise level differencies between these two modes.
Example with Sweep mode FFT there is 10Hz RBW  and then look noise level using 30Hz RBW with Sweep mode Sweep. RBW 30 show  more low noise average than FFT mode RBW 10Hz.



« Last Edit: September 28, 2016, 08:27:59 am by rf-loop »
I drive a LEC (low el. consumption) BEV car. Smoke exhaust pipes - go to museum. In Finland quite all electric power is made using nuclear, wind, solar and water.

Wises must compel the mad barbarians to stop their crimes against humanity. Where have the wises gone?
 

Offline Mara

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #820 on: September 29, 2016, 10:52:31 am »
Hello everyone, i am new in the forum... :) I have read the various discussion present in the forum, but I still have ideas a little confused about the upgrade to firmware 1.17 of my DSA815-TG ... I have the latest hardware version of the Instrument with the original firmware 1.09 and the pin 7 and 8 of the Fram memory welded together to keep the trial options... If I do upgrade to the 17.1 to get the 10 Hz RBW, I lose the options Ok, but then if I do a downgrade to version 1.16 for instance, my trial options will still be available? Many thanks to those who will give me a definite answer to this question.  :-// Mara
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #821 on: September 29, 2016, 11:04:01 am »
@ Mara --

yes this is exactly how it turned out on my DSA815 when I installed the 0.01.17 firmware. So no worry, as long as the FRAM is write protected, you can always reactivate your trial options by returning to the 0.01.16 firmware.
 

Offline ormandj

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #822 on: September 29, 2016, 04:41:51 pm »
01.18 is out:

V00.01.18    2016-09-26

-----Reslove Ultra Spectrum problem
-----Perfect the SSC fuction
-----From this version,
      Do not support the downgrade operation,
      If special need ,please contact RIGOL technical support
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #823 on: September 29, 2016, 04:57:09 pm »
01.18 is out:
<snip>
      Do not support the downgrade operation,


... and, with it, sales dry up until another hack is found!
 

Offline Mara

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #824 on: September 29, 2016, 08:06:03 pm »
Thank you very much for your information Thomas. As soon as I will do the upgrade to version 1.17, and the inverse test with downgrade to 1.16 I will let you know ... In the meantime, there is news of the new version 1.18 which no longer provides for the downgrade ... I am afraid that I will stop at 1.17 for a long time ... Hi  :=\
 


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