Author Topic: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815  (Read 457905 times)

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Offline xrunner

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #950 on: November 07, 2018, 12:52:40 am »
Hey I got a question I can't seem to work out. I have two traces going - a Max hold trace (1) and a Min hold trace (2). I want to accurately measure the frequency difference between the two different traces with markers at several places. I have markers assigned to the two traces but I don't see any way to get the frequency difference between a marker on trace 1 and another marker on trace 2.

Does anyone know how to measure the frequency difference between two different points on two traces other than by eyeballing them?  :(
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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #951 on: November 07, 2018, 12:56:17 am »
Marker table ?
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #952 on: November 07, 2018, 01:00:56 am »
Marker table ?

Thank you for responding. No it doesn't seem that can do it, I tried.  :-//

Just seems like it would be possible - conceptually it's not a complicated thing but doesn't seem to be implemented. Do the Siglent SAs enable that?
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Online tautech

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #953 on: November 07, 2018, 01:10:38 am »
Marker table ?

Thank you for responding. No it doesn't seem that can do it, I tried.  :-//

Just seems like it would be possible - conceptually it's not a complicated thing but doesn't seem to be implemented. Do the Siglent SAs enable that?
Not exactly what you wanted however the info is in the Marker table and all you need is to do some simple maths.
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« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 01:48:55 am by tautech »
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #954 on: November 07, 2018, 01:18:43 am »
Not exactly what you wanted however the info is in the Marker table and all you need is to do some simple maths.

Yes that can be done of course by hand, I was looking for the instrument to do it but it looks like it just isn't something the designers implemented, not sure why.
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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #955 on: November 07, 2018, 01:25:11 am »
Not exactly what you wanted however the info is in the Marker table and all you need is to do some simple maths.

Yes that can be done of course by hand, I was looking for the instrument to do it but it looks like it just isn't something the designers implemented, not sure why.
Something like a Delta marker but relative to a marker on another trace ?

Edit
You can use a Delta marker and move it to the marker on another trace and it will show the frequency difference.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2018, 01:45:27 am by tautech »
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Offline xrunner

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #956 on: November 07, 2018, 01:47:50 am »
Something like a Delta marker but relative to a marker on another trace ?

Yep exactly. Easy enough and simple math but not implemented. What I'm doing is measuring FM deviation using trace 1 Max hold and trace 2 Min hold, as W2AEW does it. But he has a Tektronix SA.  :-\
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Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #957 on: November 10, 2018, 05:55:34 pm »
Re. FM Frequency Deviation Measurement:  General information for those interested.
W2AEW states that his procedure below in item 1.) is for determining a Quick Estimation of FM Deviation.  And as I tried to make clear in the procedure I provided for 'DSA800 Frequency Standard Calibration' (Reply #954 above), is that the DSA800 Marker does not provide an accurate method for determining a precise RF frequency. And to do that, you need to use a qualified RF Frequency Counter.  Of course a Frequency Counter would not be applicable for FM Deviation measurement covered here.
1.) W2AEW - #159: How to measure FM frequency deviation with a spectrum analyzer.


For a accurate measurement of FM Frequency Deviation you would want to use a Bessel Null Measurement as follows below in items 2.) and 3.).
2.) W2AEW - #101: How to measure FM Frequency Deviation without special equipment using Carrier-Bessel Null.  This video uses a CW receiver, although it is easier to use a Spectrum Analyzer instead.


3.) TRX Bench - #166 FM modulation and deviation on the spectrum analyzer explained.

         This is also a nice introduction to AM, FM, and Bessel Null Frequency Deviation Measurement.

4.) Frequency Deviation Measurement with an RTL-SDR Dongle (as a Spectrum Analyzer):  Perhaps this may be of interest if you don't have a Spectrum Analyzer.
https://www.qsl.net/kp4md/freqdev.htm
« Last Edit: November 15, 2018, 09:30:23 pm by ted572 »
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #958 on: November 18, 2018, 03:01:26 am »
DSA815 RF Front-End Architecture and RF/IF Components

Edit Nov. 19, 2018: I  provided a revised version of the 'DSA815 RF Front-End Architecture and RF/IF Components' .pdf document below as a replacement for the original.  Re. Item U113; U120 P/N is TBD, and is mounted on the bottom side of the PCB due to space restraints on the top.  The reference designation was changed from U113 to U120 due to its new physical location (under the U120 marking).  U113/U114 are not used, and U120 drives the Digital IF input.
If you are seeing this after previously downloading version dated 17 or 18, 2018, please Re. Download this again.  The latest PDF document is version D, dated Nov. 19, 2018.
Credits go to TurboTom for finding a issue with the U113, U114, U120 information on the newer versions of the DA815 units.  Thank you Tom

 
« Last Edit: November 20, 2018, 07:47:47 pm by ted572 »
 
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Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #959 on: November 18, 2018, 10:54:22 am »
Hi Ted -

the newer DSA815 units indeed don't use U114 but actually it isn't bypassed. On the opposite side of the PCB, there's another footprint labeled U120 that is connected to the pads of U114 by some vias. This component is assembled and has got a different pinout than U114. So apparently, it's just two assembly / component options. Unfortunately, I've only got a rather blurry over-all photo of the PCB "solder side" (or whatever one may call it) that doesn't permit identifying the RF amplifier used. BTW, my DSA is a H/W revision 2.04.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2018, 11:38:27 am by TurboTom »
 

Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #960 on: November 19, 2018, 11:50:07 pm »
Ted -

to me the U120 device rather looks like an RF transistor (similar to a BFP780) since there's a bias voltage divider at the input (150/75 Ohms), usually not to be found around MMICs. Moreover, the pinout is rather uncommon for a typical SOT-343 gain block. And then, there's three 10 Ohms resistors in parallel to ground connected to the terminals where one would expect the emitter of an NPN RF transistor in the aforementioned package. Hence, my bet is that it's an NPN transistor. Also, the BFP780 or one of this series would make sense since it's the last IF stage and the signal levels could be considerable. It's got to drive the input(s) of the ADC through a set of filters and an un-bal transformer so I'ld expect the maximum signal levels at U120's output to be closer to 10dBm than to -10dBm. I've probably got to rip the box apart again to get the numbers on the package... Anyway I eventually wanted to include the "PIC hack". Been a little lazy lately  ;) ... intended to have the thing hacked "properly" a long time ago.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2018, 11:53:12 pm by TurboTom »
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #961 on: January 15, 2019, 06:47:07 pm »
'Noise Figure Calculator'   The NF Calculators provided are Excel Workbook files, and as such require MS Excel (or compatible) on your PC.  The version labeled 'Full' provides additional information that is not in the 'Std' version.  Although this information is not required for Noise Figure calculations, and may not be of interest to most users.  I also provided information on an economical Calibrated RF Noise Source.
Note that Spectrum Analyzer (SA) Noise measurements for accurately determining Noise Figure (NF) require the use of a RMS Detector and ~ 100 sweep averages.   Most modern  SAs have this capability, including of course the DSA800 Series.
Please open the NF Calc Excel in the 'Read Only' mode if/or when prompted.  You can save copies of your NF measurement calculations and they will be saved with the prefix 'Copy of . . '.   I set the files as Read Only to prevent users from accidentally coping over the original file, and thus loosing the original default values.  This way, if you copy a result that had invalid entries resulting in math errors, etc, this could be confusing the next time you open the the NF Calc file.  The defaults can be helpful during initial use (on the learning curve) to appreciate the general values to expect.  If you want to save your own defaults, then simply save your file, and replace the original with it (without the prefix 'Copy of').

Edit: Open the NF Calc Excel in the 'Read Only' mode If, Or when prompted.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2019, 09:00:56 pm by ted572 »
 
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Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #962 on: January 15, 2019, 06:53:03 pm »
... you can even automate the whole process, like here:

https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/making-noise/a-noise-figure-measurement-solution-for-the-poor/

The DSA815 with a cheap external preamp is absolutely OK for this job.
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #963 on: January 16, 2019, 12:23:59 am »
DSA815/DSA815-TG Spectrum Analyzer Modification for Lower Noise Floor
This Modification applies ONLY to the DSA815 with Main Board 00.04 - 00.05 (Boot V. 00.01.02 and 00.01.03). It is NOT APPLICABLE to Main Boards 00.07 - 0.09 (Boot v. 00.01.04).  Note that the the following change does not affected the unit's calibration.
Purpose: To reduce the Noise Floor (DANL) and improve the sensitivity to be similar to that of the Newer DSA815 with Main Boards 00.07 - 0.09 (Boot v. 00.01.04). After reading the following attached information: If you are not comfortable making these modifications, understanding that you may want, or have to revert back to the original circuitry, or do not have the required skills, then by all means do not continue further.

Those that have already have made this modification are pleased with their results. Although as with your car, your mileage may be different.

Edit: I have received replies from users that have made this change, saying that they are happy having the lower default 0-1.5 GHz Noise Flore similar to the newer DSA815s.  And BTW they agree that these SMT resistors are easy to change if you have any basic SMT soldering skills.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 01:25:24 pm by ted572 »
 

Offline Wolfgang

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #964 on: January 16, 2019, 12:31:25 am »
Why would you do that ? An external preamp (you could measure the gain with your DSA815TG) with a low cost standard MMIC does this for a few bucks without risky disassembling your 815 and fiddling on a board full of small SMD stuff.

https://electronicprojectsforfun.wordpress.com/making-noise/using-homebrew-preamps-in-commercial-noise-figure-measurement-applications/

 

Offline RFDUK

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #965 on: January 16, 2019, 08:23:02 am »
Folks experimenting with noise figure measurements may be interested in visiting www.g8fek.com for precision calibrated noise sources to 3.4 Ghz.

Thousands of low cost sources shipped over 8 years, many of these in commercial applications.
Weak signal comms specialist. Very low noise amplifier & precision calibrated noise source manufacturer. Embedded antenna design services. http://www.g8fek.com  http://www.rfdesignuk.com
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #966 on: January 18, 2019, 06:31:11 pm »
Remote Control for all of the 'DSA700/DSA800 Series' Spectrum Analyzers. Its nice for basic control (Center Freq., Start/Stop Freq., etc), and especially for monitoring the DSA on a PC, and really awesome with a large external LCD Display attached to the PC.

I suggest trying Peter Dreisiebner's (EEVblog'er 'PeDre') 'Rigol DSA800 Remote Control LAN/USB' that is available at: https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-dsa815/index.htm (English language), or http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-dsa815/index.htm (German language).

This is a Portable program, meaning that you simply run it (from any directory, the desktop, USB drive, etc) and it works directly without requiring any installation, or its making changes to the Windows Registry. The only preparation you need to do on the PC is to add a Win USB driver 'Zadig v2' available at http://zadig.akeo.ie/. This USB driver is required for any of Peters Dreisiebner's programs. It isn't required for LAN, although I prefer USB, seems faster/easier to me, and the driver is easy to install.

I use the program with Windows 10 and it is great. I want to point out that this program has not been fully completed, and it may never be (?), so there are functions that are not available, such as Marker, Measurement, Tracking Generator, SSC, and possibly a few others. But don't be too concerned, because you can temporarily set 'Remote' - Off, 'Select Trace' - Stop. Then press 'Esc' on the DSA, and make the any desired SA selection changes manually (via Front Panel). Then set the 'DSA800 Remote Control' to 'Remote' - On, and 'Select Trace' - Run.  This sounds more complicated than it actually is, and once you have tried it I think you will agree.

Note that this program also provides some very nice options. i.e. 1.) Spectrogram/Waterfall Display under its normal SA display. 2.) Cross-hair (cursor) display for the SA Remote screen's display cursor. And as standard, a nice presentation of the current configuration, etc.

You may find a couple of bugs in the program, although if so you will learn how to either avoid, or recover from them quickly. I think you will agree that this program is awesome for monitoring the SA on your PC, or better yet with a large screen LCD monitor attached to the PC.

Edit:  I can't say enough about how nice this program is, and easy to use.   The only thing that requires installation is the small USB Zadig driver, if it isn't currently on your PC.

Other later reference to this program: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/spectrum-analyzer-rigol-dsa815/msg2516874/#msg2516874
Sample of PeDre's 'DSA800 Remote Control' Screen Shots: http://peter.dreisiebner.at/rigol-dsa815/screenshots.htm
« Last Edit: June 29, 2019, 05:47:06 pm by ted572 »
 
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Offline IRB

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #967 on: March 09, 2019, 04:21:51 am »
Nice work IRB, I'm glad someone started to develop a 3rd party app for Rigol DSAs.

I have a few comments as well:Add the graticules to the captured trace would be nice. Also having more detailed analysis tools like spectrogram, projection of amplitude/power/frequency vs. time and waterfall graphs, in the app would make it a priceless tool as well.


BTW: Are you going to share the source code on GitHub or you want to keep it as a free licensed close source code?


Could give this piece of code a try on your DSA815? It kind of works on my RSA5065 but the colors come back purple instead of blue...

For USB. it's as I called it it gets a screen shot over the USB, saves as a bmp, I used paint to make it a png, smaller file size
Oops, can not attache exe files...


« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 12:47:15 pm by IRB »
 

Offline ted572

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #968 on: March 10, 2019, 02:15:20 am »
For your information the DSA815 Upside-Down USB DSA800.JPG Screenshots were corrected in Firmware version 00.01.19.00.02.  This isn't necessarily common knowledge because Rigol didn't mention this in their Firmware Release Notes for this version.
Edit: Added - Typical Screenshot Storage Time and File Size (applies to DSA815 - DSA875).
BMP: ~17 Sec., ~1,128 KB; JPG: ~5  Sec., ~118 KB; PNG: ~20 Sec, ~52 KB.

They also corrected a bug in the SSC (Single Signal Capture) 'SigCapture' mode in this Firmware.  Note that the 'RT Trace', 'MaxHold', and '2FSK' are mutually exclusive in this mode.  And when you use the SSC (Signal Capture) option, both 'RT Trace' and 'MaxHold' use Peak Hold for capturing fast intermittent (transient) RF signals.  This is part of the SSC's FFT mode used to capture short transient RF signals that otherwise may not be observed with the DSA815.  This is primarily due to the DSA815 having a minimum (fastest) sweep time of 10 Ms.  Where as the DSA832 and DSA875 have minimum sweep time of 1 Ms, and thus they are able to capture much shorter RF incidents than the DSA815 without SSC.  We can appreciate the SSC mode more by reading about Rigol’s ASK / FSK Test System for Keyless Entry with the DSA800 Series, etc.  SSC is great for capturing events in ASK, FSK, and any other RF transmissions where there are intermittent transient events, such as spurious emissions (often found on initial TX key (TX on) and/or un-key (TX off).  The SSC option capability has bee included in the last few Firmware releases, although Rigol didn't included a free Trial for it.  If interested in it, we have to purchase a SSC-DSA Option License.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:11:13 am by ted572 »
 

Offline IRB

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #969 on: March 15, 2019, 12:43:21 pm »

WOW, I just realized I attached the wrong ZIP File. The ScreenGrab.zip has the exe file. :palm:
« Last Edit: March 15, 2019, 12:48:44 pm by IRB »
 

Offline xrunner

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #970 on: March 15, 2019, 06:52:13 pm »
For your information the DSA815 Upside-Down USB DSA800.JPG Screenshots were corrected in Firmware version 00.01.19.00.02.  This isn't necessarily common knowledge because Rigol didn't mention this in their Firmware Release Notes for this version.

Thanks - I just installed the firmware and now no upside-down screen prints!  :clap:
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Offline TurboTom

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #971 on: March 18, 2019, 07:13:42 am »
U120 confirmed: Just had my DSA apart again and at that opportunity took a look at U120's (the final IF gain stage on machines with PCB rev. 02.04) marking: It's "ANs", indicating that it's Infineon's BFP450 transistor, the same type that's used in the 1st LO (frequency range split over three individual oscillators, all of them using the identical type transistor). Though maybe not too relevant, I thought to add that information here for completeness since there had been some uncertainties about this issue recently.

Cheers!
 
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Offline Wall-E

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #972 on: March 24, 2019, 05:47:05 pm »
Help. I got 3 old out of date trials on dsa832. Do any one know how I can purge em?  Stein
 

Offline PeDre

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #973 on: March 24, 2019, 06:00:17 pm »
Help. I got 3 old out of date trials on dsa832. Do any one know how I can purge em?  Stein

In the last firmware 00.01.19.00.02 for the DSA815, there is a new SCPI command with help text.


"Delete all Trial version option license key"

:SYSTem:LKEY:TDELete


The corresponding button is also available in the Maintenance Mode.

Peter
 

Offline Wall-E

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Re: Spectrum Analyzer - Rigol DSA815
« Reply #974 on: March 24, 2019, 06:18:30 pm »
Help. I got 3 old out of date trials on dsa832. Do any one know how I can purge em?  Stein
In the last firmware 00.01.19.00.02 for the DSA815, there is a new SCPI command with help text.
"Delete all Trial version option license key"
:SYSTem:LKEY:TDELete
The corresponding button is also available in the Maintenance Mode.
Peter
Thanks Peter, but :SYSTem:LKEY:TDELete just hangs up, and no button. I has dsa832 with .01.05.00 firmware. to bad ,thanks for help ,Stein

Use license key with it no work.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 06:59:10 pm by Wall-E »
 


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