Author Topic: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown  (Read 439889 times)

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Offline jscgvnc

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #775 on: August 15, 2016, 01:12:59 pm »
Thanks guido and BravoV, very helpful!

I had made the leap that they had replaced the cable and therefore had different connector markings, but this is great info. I appreciate it.
 

Offline GasGas

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #776 on: August 22, 2016, 02:58:36 pm »
Hello.

This is my first participation in the Forum. I just buy a 2467B to 2465B to my company. I still have it in my hands, which happened soon, because I need to go search it in another state. Well, I want to accomplish the exchange of his Nvram because the photos I received from the seller, the date of Nvram is 1991 .... here in Brazil I am not finding the Nvram with DS1225Y-200 specification, only DS1225Y- 150.

Could someone tell me if this DS1225Y Nvram-150 can be used? I want to be with everything at hand at the time of exchange of the same.

Sorry for bad english, I'm using Google Translate.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #777 on: August 22, 2016, 03:17:18 pm »
Could someone tell me if this DS1225Y Nvram-150 can be used? I want to be with everything at hand at the time of exchange of the same.

The DS1225Y-150 will work fine; it is just a little faster than the DS1225Y-200.  The DS1225AD is the replacement for the DS1225Y and can be used also.

Make sure to buy the DS1225Y or DS1225AD from a reputable seller and not on Ebay; they are commonly counterfeited.
 

Offline GasGas

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #778 on: August 22, 2016, 04:19:19 pm »
Thanks for the quick response.

About where to buy Nvram, this is a big problem for me here in Brazil, because there are no reliable distributors like Digikey and others.

One way to check if the Nvram to buy in Brazil will work, would record data from Nvram posted several users in this topic? I have a TL 886. recorder If you can record it on the TL886 is likely to work after being installed in scope, right?

Thank you.
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #779 on: August 22, 2016, 09:01:36 pm »
A TL886 programmer is a good start.

The major problem is counterfeiters remarking old Dallas/Maxim NVSRAMs with current date codes and selling them so while programming the NVSRAM might indicate that it works, it may not last long because the battery is almost dead.  NVSRAMs are a good target because individually they are expensive.

So you do not have *any* distributors for Maxim's products?  I tried looking up their distributors for Brazil but Maxim's web site is broken; I cannot even order parts directly from them or contact sales.  I have always tried to avoid them because of poor support and it seems they are continuing that tradition.

If it helps, the ST Microelectronics M48Z18 or M48Z58Y NVSRAMs could also be used.

Maybe someone in the forum could recommend a reputable Ebay seller for these parts.
 

Offline GasGas

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #780 on: August 23, 2016, 12:00:06 am »
I am very grateful for the help. I'll probably end up importing the Nvram via Digikey, however sending so are U$ 40.00 + taxes in Brazil.  :-[ :-[ :-[

You are right about buying a fake Nvram with the old manufacturing date, which will have its useful life much less than expected, however my biggest fear is loss of data at the time of withdrawal of the same, as in some cases reported in this topic. I will take care of maximum, with the help of Hakko 474 station.

I will copy all data via Exer 02 even without making sure someone could manually enter the data into the new Nvram.

I look forward to put the hand in the new scope, so that I could verify via Exer 05 it has only 1193 hours of use and 867 power on ... 8)
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #781 on: August 23, 2016, 04:25:49 am »
When I replaced the NVSRAMs in my Tektronix 2440, I was not able to read the data even though I did everything correctly.  It is possible that my programmer had problems with them but it worked fine on the replacements that I used.  Luckily doing the external calibration on a 2440 is much easier than on a 2465 series oscilloscope and I was prepared for that.

I now have a 2445B to worry about but I have not inspected it yet to check the NVSRAMs.
 

Offline GasGas

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #782 on: August 23, 2016, 02:04:13 pm »
It is a worrying situation know that Nvram this in his last days and not be sure that I will be successful in your replacement. I do not have the necessary equipment to perform a recalibration (basically I have an HP 3324A signal generator and DMM Fluke 189).

I will have positive thinking that nothing goes wrong at the time of exchange ...

Thanks for everything. :-+
 

Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #783 on: August 23, 2016, 04:39:41 pm »
Now I am looking into the same thing for my 2445B.

The currently produced 8k x 8 STK11C68 should work as a direct replacement but its SOIC package will require an adapter.  The older but discontinued 32k x 8 STK16C88 should also work and I have a couple in DIP packages so I may try one of these first.  The STK16C88 is 32k instead of 8k but the pinouts are compatible; the extra two address lines need to be permanently tied to ground or Vcc.

These parts are made by Cypress Semiconductor and are SRAM memories backed up by EEPROM memory so they have no batteries to run down.  I used a pair of STK16C88s to replace the DS1230ABs in my 2440.

Unfortunately you will probably have just as much of a problem if not more trying to find these parts.
 

Offline GasGas

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #784 on: September 14, 2016, 01:03:21 am »
As I had commented seek 2467B he had bought, for it was necessary to conduct a 1300Km travel round-trip, I was afraid that it was damaged in transit by using a carrier service.

When I arrived at the residence of the former owner, I did a quick test and everything seemed to function normally. When I arrived at my house, the first offers was to change the 110V voltage selector switch to 220V, which was promptly done. Well, after that I called the same and my joy did not last 30 seconds .... this was the time to listen to the sound of something frying and witness a beautiful cloud of smoke coming from within the scope .... I wanted to cry after an exhausting trip down a lot of rain witness that was very disappointing ....

The other day, I opened the scope to see what had happened and the first offers was to remove the power supply of your site and survey the damage. All it took was a quick visual inspection to realize that the film capacitor 68nf x 250V was broken out, which made me more relaxed because provavelmete replacement and more few components establish a fully functioning scope. As was already aware of the need for NVRAM and not finding any in Brazil dated back manufacturing to 2010 I decided to book with NVRAM socket, and all capacitors for Reconstruction the inverter board, power supply and A5 board, I also did not find quality electrolytic capacitors in Brazil. I made the purchase in the online store Digikey and requested shipping via Fedex which took exactly 7 consecutive days, yesterday received the box with all components:



I started the exchange by film capacitors and you can see small cracks in the capacitor body what I believe is the cause for it to absorb moisture over the years:



After finishing the exchange of film capacitors, the next step was the subsitution of electrolytic capacitors, which did not fail to cause surprises, as many original electrolytic capacitors (Nichicon Green) had a lower ESR than the new Panasonic and Nichicon...

Original Nichicon:



New Panasonic:



The capacitors showed fullness at the bottom of the body were changed, although its capacitance and ESR were perfect when compared to new:

Original:



New:



The only original capacitor which really had a high ESR was this 3.3 UF 350V.

Original:



New:



All capacitors replaced:



After the exchange made the scope back to life!



Now came the part that caused me concern, which was the exchange of NVRAM because lí some reports on this topic failures and loss of data at the time of replacement. Before replacing the NVRAM, I filmed with my phone all andress via Exer from the service menu. Not leaving anything to do, I removed the old NVRAM with 1991 manufacturing date and copied the data from it using a TL recorder 886 and after that the data was copied to the NVRAM with 2016 manufacturing date, which was embedded in a socket to intervene in a very distant future!

Old NVRAM:



New NVRAM:



This tool is essential for the success of the service:



Very happy with my 2467B with very little use and no burn mark in the CRT!





Thanks for the help and information  :-+ :-+

« Last Edit: September 14, 2016, 01:08:32 am by GasGas »
 
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Offline cheeseit

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #785 on: October 17, 2016, 08:46:25 pm »
This is a great thread - thanks to you all  for contributing with so much valuable information and knowledge! I've read more or less everything in the last few days and have bookmarked plenty of further reading but I haven't yet really gone beyond this thread.

Quick question while I await the arrival of a 2465B, which I bought for €53/$60 (my first Tek scope - yay), that is supposedly defective. The seller stated that it arced in either the tube or the HV-supply but was otherwise in perfect working condition and in calibration until that day. I know that it is kinda hard to speculate on without more information, and he did mention that a new tube might be needed which seems plausible, but any ideas what might be the source of this arcing?

I know nothing about its vintage, serial or what, if any, repairs have been done to it. The seller seems very honest, and even turned down several bids that were a lot higher since I was the first, and I don't believe that he has even checked what it might be so I'm hoping it might be simple but fear that it could be expensive.
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #786 on: October 18, 2016, 01:02:55 am »

Quick question while I await the arrival of a 2465B, which I bought for €53/$60 (my first Tek scope - yay), that is supposedly defective. The seller stated that it arced in either the tube or the HV-supply but was otherwise in perfect working condition and in calibration until that day. I know that it is kinda hard to speculate on without more information, and he did mention that a new tube might be needed which seems plausible, but any ideas what might be the source of this arcing?

The chances of the CRT being the source of the HV issue is rather remote, unless it's been subject to damage or shock. The best way to find the source of the arcing is to remove the case, darkened room, and look for the source. But keep your hands behind your back.  :P
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #787 on: October 18, 2016, 03:08:41 am »
The seller stated that it arced in either the tube or the HV-supply but was otherwise in perfect working condition and in calibration until that day. I know that it is kinda hard to speculate on without more information, and he did mention that a new tube might be needed which seems plausible, but any ideas what might be the source of this arcing?

The AC line safety capacitors may have failed which is a common and easily repairable problem.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #788 on: October 18, 2016, 12:31:48 pm »
The seller stated that it arced in either the tube or the HV-supply but was otherwise in perfect working condition and in calibration until that day. I know that it is kinda hard to speculate on without more information, and he did mention that a new tube might be needed which seems plausible, but any ideas what might be the source of this arcing?

The AC line safety capacitors may have failed which is a common and easily repairable problem.

Yes, but some of those capacitors are "hidden"; in the last week I've "done" a 2465 and 2445B, and while the "hidden" caps hadn't failed, they were crazed. FFI, see http://www.condoraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/Projects/Tektronix-2465B-Oscilloscope-Restoration-Repair.pdf

And don't forget the infamous control board caps, q.v.

The HV supply arcing may simply be neons flashing.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #789 on: October 18, 2016, 05:25:54 pm »
The seller stated that it arced in either the tube or the HV-supply but was otherwise in perfect working condition and in calibration until that day. I know that it is kinda hard to speculate on without more information, and he did mention that a new tube might be needed which seems plausible, but any ideas what might be the source of this arcing?

The AC line safety capacitors may have failed which is a common and easily repairable problem.

Yes, but some of those capacitors are "hidden"; in the last week I've "done" a 2465 and 2445B, and while the "hidden" caps hadn't failed, they were crazed. FFI, see http://www.condoraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/Projects/Tektronix-2465B-Oscilloscope-Restoration-Repair.pdf

And don't forget the infamous control board caps, q.v.

The HV supply arcing may simply be neons flashing.

Those paper capacitors all seem to be universally bad having either physically degraded do to age like you describe or shorted out.  I think they have been changed in my 2445B but I have a few junked 22xx main boards where they are crazed and I do not bother pulling them for spares.

The reason I suggested them is that they do not always go out with a bang and their arcing may have been mistaken for a high voltage problem while not disabling the oscilloscope.  They are just something else to check.

I do not know of any reason they cannot be replaced with modern film or ceramic safety capacitors and of course they can always be derated.
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #790 on: October 18, 2016, 06:50:22 pm »
The seller stated that it arced in either the tube or the HV-supply but was otherwise in perfect working condition and in calibration until that day. I know that it is kinda hard to speculate on without more information, and he did mention that a new tube might be needed which seems plausible, but any ideas what might be the source of this arcing?

The AC line safety capacitors may have failed which is a common and easily repairable problem.

Yes, but some of those capacitors are "hidden"; in the last week I've "done" a 2465 and 2445B, and while the "hidden" caps hadn't failed, they were crazed. FFI, see http://www.condoraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/Projects/Tektronix-2465B-Oscilloscope-Restoration-Repair.pdf

And don't forget the infamous control board caps, q.v.

The HV supply arcing may simply be neons flashing.

Those paper capacitors all seem to be universally bad having either physically degraded do to age like you describe or shorted out.  I think they have been changed in my 2445B but I have a few junked 22xx main boards where they are crazed and I do not bother pulling them for spares.

The reason I suggested them is that they do not always go out with a bang and their arcing may have been mistaken for a high voltage problem while not disabling the oscilloscope.  They are just something else to check.

Those directly across the mains in my 2465 "expanded rapidly" after 30s, and one of the associated series resistors disintegrated - leaving carbon across the board and the PCB's glass fibre weave exposed without prepreg :)

Quote
I do not know of any reason they cannot be replaced with modern film or ceramic safety capacitors and of course they can always be derated.

I just followed the information in the pdf I referred to, replacing them with X*/Y* caps as appropriate.
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Offline cheeseit

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #791 on: October 18, 2016, 08:22:50 pm »
The chances of the CRT being the source of the HV issue is rather remote, unless it's been subject to damage or shock. The best way to find the source of the arcing is to remove the case, darkened room, and look for the source. But keep your hands behind your back.  :P

According to the seller he just powered it up and somehow experienced arcing, that is all I know for the moment, so I don't think it was damage or shock. A good idea I hadn't thought of with the darkened room, and good advice too. :)

The AC line safety capacitors may have failed which is a common and easily repairable problem.

That was my first thought too but I shuck it off as wishful thinking so I am glad that you suggest this. Those will be the first I examine after having looked for anything obvious.

The HV supply arcing may simply be neons flashing.

Flashing as in worn out? As far as I know the scope does not work anymore, could these cause that if they are broken and/or kill other components?


Thanks all, you've raised hopes that it could be simple and less expensive to repair. I will surely post when I get it and most likely seek your advice and help again. :)
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #792 on: October 18, 2016, 08:30:36 pm »
The chances of the CRT being the source of the HV issue is rather remote, unless it's been subject to damage or shock. The best way to find the source of the arcing is to remove the case, darkened room, and look for the source. But keep your hands behind your back.  :P

According to the seller he just powered it up and somehow experienced arcing, that is all I know for the moment, so I don't think it was damage or shock. A good idea I hadn't thought of with the darkened room, and good advice too. :)

The AC line safety capacitors may have failed which is a common and easily repairable problem.

That was my first thought too but I shuck it off as wishful thinking so I am glad that you suggest this. Those will be the first I examine after having looked for anything obvious.

The HV supply arcing may simply be neons flashing.

Flashing as in worn out? As far as I know the scope does not work anymore, could these cause that if they are broken and/or kill other components.

They prevent the cathode-grid voltage from becoming dangerous. Normally that only happens after the power is turned off. Some Tek scopes also have a neon in the main PSU that flashes continually, but IIRC the 2465 doesn't.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2016, 08:33:46 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline David Hess

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #793 on: October 18, 2016, 08:45:21 pm »
Flashing as in worn out? As far as I know the scope does not work anymore, could these cause that if they are broken and/or kill other components.

They prevent the cathode-grid voltage from becoming dangerous. Normally that only happens after the power is turned off. Some Tek scopes also have a neon in the main PSU that flashes continually, but IIRC the 2465 doesn't.

Exactly, they are used as zero leakage surge suppressors to protect various elements of the CRT and sometimes other circuits.  They usually only flash when power is first applied or when it is removed.  I have never seen them go bad.

 

Offline cheeseit

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #794 on: October 20, 2016, 11:28:23 pm »
My 2465B has arrived. Frontcover but no probes, manuals or CRT filter. It looks great and has no nicks or scratches, is only slightly dirty and the BNC connectors could use a bit of polishing. A bit of dust inside in places but nothing that a bit of compressed air can't remove.

1989 vintage, all through hole and the serial is 134xxx and is from Guernsey in the Channel Islands. GPIB and TV trigger options.

No RIFA caps on the regulator board and no leaking or bulging caps or anything obvious burned or broken. The battery date code is 0589 and measures 3.696V at the terminals so cal data should be safe for now, right? I find that incredible for a 27 year old battery?

Still haven't turned it on an and worryingly, something rattles when I turn it around. I'm pretty sure it's from within the CRT metal shield in the wide part behind the front of the tube - a loose lamp? Is there anything in there that could short from a lamp rattling around and explain what the seller called arcing..?

« Last Edit: October 20, 2016, 11:30:17 pm by cheeseit »
 

Offline cheeseit

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #795 on: October 23, 2016, 02:47:45 pm »
Well, of course it wasn't a lamp and there was no way one of those could come loose and rattle between the CRT shield and tube. But something is in there. I tried to make sure that it was lodged towards the front of the tube, away from any connections, and turned the scope on.
Good news is that it boots but bad news is that there is nothing on the screen and - worse - that something sure arcs in there somewhere. I only had it on a few times for 10-15 sec. max but the arcing started a few seconds into booting, with what sounded like an arc welder and the strong smell of ozon.
Unfortunately no blue glow to see anywhere through holes, between boards and so on, not even in a darkened room. I noticed though that the fuse on the HV-board started glowing the instant the arcing started.

Next step is to pull the A9-board and CRT out and see if I can locate where it is - there just has to be signs with that much noise and ozon - and get whatever is rattling out. Ideas, suggestions and advice is most welcome. :)

I'm unsure if I should start my own thread or continue in this one?
« Last Edit: October 23, 2016, 04:35:45 pm by cheeseit »
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #796 on: October 23, 2016, 03:10:16 pm »
Cheeseit, sorry to hear the progress, please just continue in this thread in you don't mind.

Curious as well how will this end up.
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #797 on: October 23, 2016, 06:56:03 pm »
Agreed, keep posting in this thread. It has become a "catch all" thread for 24XX issues in one convenient location.

Can't offer any advice at this point until you find out what the rattle is and you inspect the HV board. 
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Offline cheeseit

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #798 on: October 24, 2016, 08:51:54 pm »
Well, there's your problem.. And, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.



Good news; I found the source of the rattling, and the source of the arcing.. Bad news; the tube is very much broken and it was two pieces of glass.  |O I kinda knew it as I was pulling off the CRT connector at the back since the tube was moving around as I was prying it off.

How are my chances that nothing else is damaged from this broken tube? Everything else looks totally undamaged and in excellent condition. After all, it has been turned on with the tube in this state.

I was contemplating posting images of the boards but decided that there is plenty throughout the thread. Let me know if you want images of something.

I have been looking at this sellers ebay shop and they have a lot of good stuff, and very good feedback. I've found a few other tubes on ebay, but haven't yet decided if I should wait for a for-parts scope which may have a bad and/or burned tube, or just buy this which would cost me €134/$146 including shipping. It would still be a cheap 2465B in the end, if nothing else is damaged.

Any other sources for a good tube or for-parts scope? Or anyone that has a suitable tube or donor scope? Has to be within EU because of tax and shipping.

Tubes from 2445, 2445A, 2445B, 2465, 2465A, 2465B,2430, 2430A, 2432, 2432A and 2440 are all suitable, right?

I don't need this scope now but I really want it now. It would also be the fastest scope in my possession. ;) A good thing about waiting for a donor scope is having spare parts/boards if something else is broken. Or parts to sell once this one works - that could perhaps pay for the majority or the whole thing in the end.

To end on a positive note, this does give me time to order caps and recap the A5/A2A1/A3 boards. :)


Edit: I think the seller must have known, since he mentioned the tube might need replacing, and suspect that he dropped it. Oh well, he did warn me..
« Last Edit: October 24, 2016, 08:56:04 pm by cheeseit »
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Tektronix 2465B oscilloscope teardown
« Reply #799 on: October 24, 2016, 09:04:24 pm »
Well, there's your problem.. And, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.

How are my chances that nothing else is damaged from this broken tube? Everything else looks totally undamaged and in excellent condition. After all, it has been turned on with the tube in this state.

Been there, done that, ended up with: https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2016/03/09/rescuing-a-broken-tektronix-465-crt/

Quote
Tubes from 2445, 2445A, 2445B, 2465, 2465A, 2465B,2430, 2430A, 2432, 2432A and 2440 are all suitable, right?

See http://www.reprise.com/host/tektronix/reference/crt.asp
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