EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: EE-digger on March 01, 2020, 05:10:55 pm
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I have a precious Maglite, given to me about 20 years ago or so, by the Tek regional rep. It is the pretty blue anodize and has a nice Tektronix name masked into one side (white/silver).
Hadn't used it in a year or two but pulled it out of a drawer this morning and to my surprise, found heavy white crystal growth around the base (must have crawled under the O ring).
I've heard of Gibson and Les Paul guitars damaged by leaking cells but for me, this Tek flashlight is as close as I come to an heirloom.
Duracell just sent me a check two months ago for another Maglite destroyed the same way, without the external growth.
After all attempts to remove the end cap, including chucking in a lathe and taking a strap wrench to the body, I had to cut the battery in half to prove to myself (and them) that the cells are Duracells. In this case I was unable to extract the battery date but in general, they've been several years before expiration, mostly in the 2020 to 2023 range.
I'm going to insist that Duracell find another light exactly like this ! I know, good luck on that.
I don't care what it costs them, I want this light replaced :box: :box: :box:
After years of giving them positive support for personal use, as well as by the thousands in test equipment products which we produced, it's over. I've been using Harbor Freight in my personal goods with no problems so far.
It's interesting that on one occasion I spoke to a technical rep. The fact that most of my own cells were from Walmart seemed to matter to him but he would not go further on that !
So, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and talks like a duck, if it's sold by Duracell , it may not really be a duck.
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Probably the cells sold to specific retailers are made down to the price point the buyer demands, thus they use the cheapest cost plant with the lowest QC for those large orders.
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For anything I care about I use lithium cells. Apart from lasting longer and having excellent shelf life (meaning it will power on when I use the tool three times per year over the next ten years) they also won't leak.
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Probably the cells sold to specific retailers are made down to the price point the buyer demands, thus they use the cheapest cost plant with the lowest QC for those large orders.
Absolutely does. Walmart in particular does get lower end versions of many identical items you can find elsewhere. The only difference will be the sku.
Walmart is the best known retailer for abusing their power and telling retailers exactly what they will pay ...after demanding the suppliers bill of materials.
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I agree with bson, Lithium is the way to go. I've never seen one leak
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Anecdotally, all brands of alkalines seem to be leaking more, so much that I've tried to go to low self discharge NiMH (Eneloops) for everything using AA or AAA.
Lithium ion have their place, but you often can't substitute them easily in a device designed for alkalines.
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If you have battery corrosion in an aluminium-bodied device, free up the seized thread/closure using (acetic acid based?) kitchen surface descaler. Usually available as a pump spray, sometimes as a powder you mix up with hot water. It worked for an Apple aluminium Bluetooth keyboard I forgot about for too long.
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I generally use white vinegar since it's always in the kitchen cupboard. It works especially well on stainless steel contacts (nickel plated in the solder area only). They generally clean up like new with a Q-tip and the vinegar.
In the case of both Maglites, I think the O-ring prevents entry to the threads. One could probably drill a small diameter hole at the threads and let them soak. Without entry, the threads get welded together by the corrosion.
Thanks for the comments on price point and QC. I'm well aware of the price point but completely forgot about the level of QC.
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Probably the cells sold to specific retailers are made down to the price point the buyer demands, thus they use the cheapest cost plant with the lowest QC for those large orders.
That sounds likely for Walmart though probably not for most others. Walmart often gets special models of products, with a lower price point and some features downgraded slightly. I've noticed this with car radios and even astronomical telescopes. They had a Meade ETX 125 telescope with Kellner eyepieces and everyone else sold it with Plossl eyepieces.
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You might want to contact Tektronix and see if another flashlight like this can be found. Explain that funds are going to be available to pay for it.
Even so, it's not the *same* one you've had all those years, it's just a replica. A copy of a memento is not a memento.
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I'll just leave this picture my daughter did of the Duracell Bunny after they destroyed something of hers:
(https://imgur.com/fvNAsZi.jpg)
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Duracell are the kiss of death, leakage masters of the universe!! I NEVER, EVER, use Duracell in anything, as I guarantee they WILL leak.
I use Panasonic and have never had one leak, as long as they are genuine Panasonic and not a Chink fake.
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A few year ago one AA Duracell leaked in my Fluke 54 thermometer but luckily the damage was minor.
I have lately used in some of my meters Duracell Industrial AA, 9v and AAA batteries with no problems so far.
But if someone know of some problem with the Industrial series, please let me know. Appreciated.
[attach=1]
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I think Duracell makes the ProCell brand batteries and they DO leak.
No Duracell doesn't make special, cheap cells for Walmart or anyone else. ALL of the Duracell batteries can and WILL eventually leak, regardless of the retailer.
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For anything I care about I use lithium cells. Apart from lasting longer and having excellent shelf life (meaning it will power on when I use the tool three times per year over the next ten years) they also won't leak.
Amen...and lighter weight too.
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I'll just leave this picture my daughter did of the Duracell Bunny after they destroyed something of hers:
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Doesn't that bunny belong to Energizer, which is Duracell's competitor?
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I'll just leave this picture my daughter did of the Duracell Bunny after they destroyed something of hers:
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Doesn't that bunny belong to Energizer, which is Duracell's competitor?
Well they kind of copied each other
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/25/duracell-energizer-court-bunny-rabbit-lawsuit-us (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/may/25/duracell-energizer-court-bunny-rabbit-lawsuit-us)
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My bad, I wasn't thinking of disposable lithium AA/AAA. They can be a viable alternative, are quite light and work well at low temperatures. However, IIRC they start at about 1.7v, are a bit expensive, and I think only Energizer makes them (patent?).
You can get rechargeable LiIon in AA size, but of course 3.7v (4.2v off the charger).
Anecdotally, all brands of alkalines seem to be leaking more, so much that I've tried to go to low self discharge NiMH (Eneloops) for everything using AA or AAA.
Lithium ion have their place, but you often can't substitute them easily in a device designed for alkalines.
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are a bit expensive,
For sure...but where I am in life...I dont give a $h_t about the additional cost. They are my go to battery!
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I just threw away a blue Maglite the other day that someone gave me, it had exactly the same sort of damage with Duracell batteries in it. I don't buy alkalines at all anymore, I've been using Eneloop and similar NiMH batteries in all my stuff for years, never had one leak. I don't trust alkaline AA and AAA cells at all, I've had dozens of them from many different brands leak. I suspect it had something to do with the mercury-free formulation, that seems to be around the time they started leaking like crazy.
They're not going to find you an identical light, that isn't realistic. What they will do is estimate the monetary value and send you a check. If you disagree with their appraisal you're probably going to have to take them to court and it will be like battling with insurance. You'll have to have the light appraised and/or find examples of others that have been sold. Look on ebay, Tek must have had thousands of these made so there's got to be a few more floating around out there somewhere.
In the future if you have something special and irreplaceable like that I would suggest storing it empty and only install batteries when you want to light it up. Put it on display on the shelf and pick up a plain Maglight for day to day use.
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Case in point as to why alkaline batteries are garbage. You should be able to clean it up to the point where it will work again, but you'll need vinegar and a lot of patience.
Personally, I stocked up on Eneloops for stuff that needs AA and AAA size batteries (I don't have anything that uses larger cells, other than 9V). Have yet to find a device that they aren't a drop-in replacement for alkalines.
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I have put non rechargeable Lithium AA and AAA cells into my nice brand name multimeters in fear of this happening.
These lithium cells are quite a bit more expensive but they also last longer so that makes the price a bit easier to justify. But most importantly the different chemistry doesn't pressurize the cell as it discharges so leaks are far less likely.
As far as i know there is no trusted alkaline battery brand that really wont leak. The cheap ones leak, the expensive ones leak (but perhaps less offten)
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Ironically the expensive ones seem to leak more than the cheap ones. There are none I trust not to leak anymore though. The C, D and 9V types rarely leak but AA and AAA cells leak like crazy, it's practically guaranteed they will leak eventually, often while still producing power.
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Why do people continue to use and buy Duracell batteries? Their alkalines are barely better than a Chinese alkaline cell (e.g. GP battery) but price is 6-8x higher at retail and at least 3x higher OEM. Plus, they leak, which seems to be particularly common for Duracell but much less common for other brands.
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The reason is marketing. Scourge of the universe!
I use GP Ultra cells. Never a problem
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I'll just leave this picture my daughter did of the Duracell Bunny after they destroyed something of hers:
(https://imgur.com/fvNAsZi.jpg)
Brilliant!
I have never had problems with GP Ultracells or IKEA cells. I have had problems with Duracells - however I have 30+ years exposure to Duracell product, so it might be a statistical thing.
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Which reminds me to check all my Flukes in the drawer. I saved a Fluke Megger once, the vomit was just starting to come out. :scared:
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I lost a special edition Pelco-Genex branded Maglite to some crappy Digitor branded alkaline batteries. I got the first battery out easily but whilst drilling out the second one the collector pin got pushed forward and destroyed the bulb contacts. :( :'(
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/leaking-aa-and-aaa-batteries/?action=dlattach;attach=597769;image)
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Can feel your pain, enough is enough, and NO SINGLE alkaline in the house now, only NiMh or primary Lithium or Li-Ion allowed.
Shot in 2013, watch the battery's date, and they were still holding charge at that time. >:(
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64864;image)
The damages above cells did at my Fluke 287 ... >:( >:( >:(
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/how-much-are-you-willing-to-pay-for-a-fluke-287/?action=dlattach;attach=64866;image)
Still in the blister pack with expiry date 2023, and no, they're stored in normal cool room temp all the time. :(
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/yara-yet-another-rotten-alkalines-sigh/?action=dlattach;attach=310149;image)
And final one, I always wrote down installation date at every battery I installed, and ... I was believing that 9V cells never leaks, I was wrong >:( , victim, my Fluke 87V. >:( >:( >:(
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yara2-9v-alkaline-cells-do-leak-check-your-expensive-gears-often-guys/?action=dlattach;attach=695136;image)
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And final one, as I was believing that 9V cells never leaks, I was wrong >:( , victim, my Fluke 87V. >:( >:( >:(
They very rarely do. Is that battery one of the "six AAAAs inside it" type or the "stack of square cells" type?
The ones with 6xAAAA inside have a tough time getting the goop all the way to the outside.
The bright side is that 9V battery snaps are really easy to replace. :-+
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And final one, as I was believing that 9V cells never leaks, I was wrong >:( , victim, my Fluke 87V. >:( >:( >:(
They very rarely do. Is that battery one of the "six AAAAs inside it" type or the "stack of square cells" type?
The ones with 6xAAAA inside have a tough time getting the goop all the way to the outside.
The bright side is that 9V battery snaps are really easy to replace. :-+
Pic speaks thousands words ... teardown (savagely >:D) that offending 9V POS.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/yara2-9v-alkaline-cells-do-leak-check-your-expensive-gears-often-guys/?action=dlattach;attach=696864;image)
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Its funny though, so far duracell has been the least leaky for me (non-rechargeable), ray-O-vac has been the worst and energizer in the middle out of the big three.
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If the logo is only on the head like that Pelco one you can get another plain Maglite easily enough and swap the head over, they're interchangeable.
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Why do 9V batteries never leak? At least for me, I have never in my lifetime had one leak.
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They have a double casing so the leak has to get really bad for it to happen. Most also have fiber top and bottom panels that absorb the leaked electrolyte. Open up your old ones and you'll probably find a lot of them are in fact leaking into the outer casing. It takes very little actual fluid volume to create a nasty corroded mess.
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9V batteries do however spontaneously blow up though.
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The only time I've ever seen one blow up is when I tried recharging a 9V alkaline to see what would happen.
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One counter example. I acquired an old photo flash a few years ago, and batteries were still fitted in it, they were Varta Alkaline extra long life batteries. I don't know why but I put one aside, and here we have this thread so I can show you. :D
The battery looks brand new even though the expiration date have passed more than 20 years ago... :o
To be honest the battery is dead flat, so probably not much chemistry left inside to do the nasty stuff, but it is still a good life time...
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Some of the older ones didn't leak at all. This is a good one. Tiny bit of crust but it still worked fine after ~35-40 years when I found it.
(https://i.imgur.com/p73uVCZ.jpg)
That selenium rectifier on the other hand!!! :scared:
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Damn, I used to sell those when I had a Saturday job at Boots as a teenager. SP11 for torches, HP11 for things with motors. Standard leakproof Carbon Zinc.
I still remember the hassle of individually pricing single cylindrical batteries with a price label gun (no multipacks in those days!). :D
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I remember nicking them from boots :-DD
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I'm so over Duracells aka "Duraleaks". Not sure what they did but if they patented the word "Alkaleaks", they'd at least be honest about it. My last Duraleak purchase from Costco started leaking before they were even out of the package. I'd have missed it but my kid caught it, they were returned half used -walkie talkies were ruined. Not sure what they are doing to cause their product to ruin our electronics, but it's horrifying. I've switched to Eneloops and have not seen any damage yet. Cross your fingers.
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They have a double casing so the leak has to get really bad for it to happen. Most also have fiber top and bottom panels that absorb the leaked electrolyte. Open up your old ones and you'll probably find a lot of them are in fact leaking into the outer casing. It takes very little actual fluid volume to create a nasty corroded mess.
In my case at above Panasonic 9V, the corroded battery's snap terminal looks like caused by corrosive gas/vapor that was vented slowly, no leaked liquid mark/stain at all inside. :-//
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I've gone to lithium "9v" for my Fluke 8060 for these reasons.
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Dang and i thought 9V never leaked. Apparently that is not the case then.
Yeah given the double case design i probably had a 9V leak but didn't see it because the outside case contained it all. But i have been phasing out 9V batteries here as i keep buying multimeters and such with AAs because of the superior battery life and the fact i have lots of AAs and AAAs around the house so a spare battery is easy to come by in a pinch. But then i end up buying expensive lithium AAs for my expensive multimeters so im probably not saving any money on batteries.
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Put this in google images: 9v battery explode
You’ll never sleep again :-DD
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And final one, as I was believing that 9V cells never leaks, I was wrong >:( , victim, my Fluke 87V. >:( >:( >:(
They very rarely do. Is that battery one of the "six AAAAs inside it" type or the "stack of square cells" type?
The ones with 6xAAAA inside have a tough time getting the goop all the way to the outside.
The bright side is that 9V battery snaps are really easy to replace. :-+
Pic speaks thousands words ... teardown (savagely >:D) that offending 9V POS.
Not sure what's going on there, there's no staining at all in the other side of the paper (inside the red circle):
[attachimg=1]
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Why do 9V batteries never leak? At least for me, I have never in my lifetime had one leak.
They have a double casing so the leak has to get really bad for it to happen. Most also have fiber top and bottom panels that absorb the leaked electrolyte. Open up your old ones and you'll probably find a lot of them are in fact leaking into the outer casing. It takes very little actual fluid volume to create a nasty corroded mess.
Plus the snap contact isn't directly over an inner-battery terminal so it has quite a way to migrate horizontally, too.
All in all much more difficult for the goop to make it to the outside.
In my case at above Panasonic 9V, the corroded battery's snap terminal looks like caused by corrosive gas/vapor that was vented slowly, no leaked liquid mark/stain at all inside. :-//
Maybe, but I never heard of "corrosive gas" from batteries before. :-//
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I learned this from you guys, but a reminder for anyone who doesn't know or missed it: Deoxit works wonders for restoring contact terminals. (the red contact cleaner -they make a blue version used only to prevent damage, won't clean like the red)
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Just managed to revive my favourite LED inspection torch from leaking duracells. I tried punching them out...no stuck...."expanded", had to drill them out and take-out the leftover skin. Cleaned it all up...it just survived.
Never again....went around threw replaced all duracells and threw away new spares. Duracell's, Never Never Never again!
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Not sure what's going on there, there's no staining at all in the other side of the paper (inside the red circle):
In my case at above Panasonic 9V, the corroded battery's snap terminal looks like caused by corrosive gas/vapor that was vented slowly, no leaked liquid mark/stain at all inside. :-//
Maybe, but I never heard of "corrosive gas" from batteries before. :-//
Me too, but how do you explain the severely corroded terminal at the tab, and also happened from the inside the battery's terminal ? :-//
I re-attached bigger tab photos below, so you can see more in details.
The corrosion did heavy damages at the nickel plated outer case, and also the brass inside.
Also from both terminals position, as I stored the Fluke lie down on it's back as usual, and the corroded one (negative) was on the top, while the good one (positive terminal) was at the bottom.
Fyi, I have OCD, and I'm 100% confident that I didn't miss spot it, if there was a corrosion at terminals when I installed it, and clearly I would replace the tab asap, or stop the battery installation.
The black goop thingy at the bottom in the photo, is just a hardened, darkened & crushed foam, for preventing the battery from rattling, and its not the culprit as I have many similar hardened foams else where too.
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Thanks for sharing, I immediately ordered one of those Energizer 9V Lithium batteries for a Fluke 87V.
I only use eneloops or "IKEAloops" for my AA and AAA devices so I haven't had to deal with a leaking battery for a decade. (though you do get a bit salty when you lend something out and they change the batteries for you as a favour... ahh I miss those ~2009 eneloops relegated to game controller duty, I make sure to tell people to never change the batteries now :P)
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I've been using NiMH 9V batteries in my Fluke 87 for years. Actually I'm not sure it has had a primary cell in it since the one it came with. I typically get a few months out of a charge, if I use it heavily and use the backlight a lot I might get a month. When the battery gets low I swap in a fresh one and pop it in the charger. I use the LSD NiMH 9V batteries in my smoke alarms now too, I tried one of those lithium ones once and was disappointed, it lasted only a few years, not the 10 years claimed. The NiMH cells I recharge whenever the first one starts to chirp, usually about twice a year.
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I noticed that the local Costco has 20-packs of AA lithium cells, Energizer brand, for just under $20 CDN (equates to ~$15 USD). It seems like a good deal considering the many benefits over alkaline: basically everything including higher capacity, longer shelf life, lower internal resistance, lower weight, flatter discharge voltage curve, no leakage, ...
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They're good for things like emergency flashlights that are kept in your car or other rarely used emergency devices. I see no real advantage over NiMH cells for most other things though.
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I've switched to Lithiums in all things expensive or that I care about and really try not to leave batteries in anything not frequently used. The only thing to watch out for is the higher voltage on the Lithiums. One or two or probably four is fine. However in two of my Fluke network testers which use 6 cells, the increased voltage shuts down (thankfully not blowing up!) the backlight.
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Yeah primary lithium AA cells have a higher open circuit voltage and can cause problems.
Sometimes the designers think of this, for example my Agilent U1273A (OLED handheld DMM) running on 4xAAA even has a menu option for selecting alkaline or lithium. As far as i know this setting is only there to make the battery charge indicator icon in the corner of the display show correct charge remaining for both types. Due to the flat nature of lithium it would probably otherwise show 100% all the time and then just plummet towards 0 in the last few hours of life remaining.
Maybe in the case of that 6 cell Fluke you could make a dummy cell out of a wooden dowel so that it could run on only 5 cells.
Oh and energizer actually has a really nice datasheet for the lithium AA cell (Lots of graphs and shows the difference to alkanine):
https://data.energizer.com/pdfs/l91.pdf
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Why not just use NiMH? They're about the same price, and you can recharge them. Having used them almost exclusively for around a decade now I have difficulty grasping why someone would use anything else.
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I have found fresh or bottled lemon juice works perfectly for cleaning up after leaked batteries.
Then maybe if possible a good clean in the ultra sonic afterwards - followed by DeoxIt.
I have not found a single brand yet that has not leaked. Toshiba(Panasonic?)/GP/Duracell/Duracell Industrial/Energizer - have all leaked.
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Why not just use NiMH? They're about the same price, and you can recharge them. Having used them almost exclusively for around a decade now I have difficulty grasping why someone would use anything else.
Self-discharge means they don't last very long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#Self-discharge
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After multiple alkaline battery leak disasters, I now use old fashioned AA and AAA carbon zinc batteries in all my very low power devices (like remote controls, digital scales, clocks, etc.).
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Why not just use NiMH? They're about the same price, and you can recharge them. Having used them almost exclusively for around a decade now I have difficulty grasping why someone would use anything else.
Self-discharge means they don't last very long.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel%E2%80%93metal_hydride_battery#Self-discharge
It's not 1998 anymore, self discharge is a thing of the past. Modern NiMH will hold 80% charge after more than a year in storage. They will have a usable charge remaining after several years.
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For anything I care about I use lithium cells. Apart from lasting longer and having excellent shelf life (meaning it will power on when I use the tool three times per year over the next ten years) they also won't leak.
I've heard this before and frankly are in the process of trying to phase out all alkaline batteries around the house. Part of that involves getting rid of battery powered devices when I can. For example the set back thermostat is gone (batteries leaked) replaced with a round mechanical one. Mind you the batteries leaked after instituting a program of changing all batteries everywhere on my birthday.
I actually now have a number of 12 VDC flashlights using the same batteries as my tools. Probably saving money even t the rip off prices for the batteries.
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I have been noticing a higher number of occurrences of leakage lately but, at least on my side, I have been losing less equipment - I simply remove the batteries and leave them on the side of the equipment inside a small sealed bag. That or I use Lithium on the more expensive ones (my fancy meters).
There was another discussion here in the EEV where I mention how my impression of Duracell changed immediately after having a nice gadget (HP95LX) destroyed by what it looked like ejection of the internal material of the battery. Having prior bad experiences with Energizer, I had moved on to Ray-o-vac and, for the longest time, I had no issues. Recently all batches I got had leaky batteries.
I have experience with a particular chinese brand of batteries (Tianquiu, included in several of my kids' toys) that have seen quite the abuse and discharge without showing signs of leak.
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After multiple alkaline battery leak disasters, I now use old fashioned AA and AAA carbon zinc batteries in all my very low power devices (like remote controls, digital scales, clocks, etc.).
I use NiMH even in that sort of stuff now, clocks, remotes, thermostat, I tend to get the Japanese made variety of Amazon Basics cells for those things. I'd call it a waste since they are so rarely recharged but they don't leak like alkaline and they're about the same price as lithium primary cells. They'll go 2-3 years between charges in many things, the clock I usually swap out the battery once a year.