| Products > Test Equipment |
| Tektronix New 3/4-Series Scope (June 4th!) |
| << < (13/26) > >> |
| snoopy:
--- Quote from: 0culus on May 10, 2019, 05:10:37 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2019, 07:56:54 am --- --- Quote from: 0culus on May 10, 2019, 02:06:58 am ---I'm not saying it should be a cheap as the usual Chinese OEMs, but I'd pay 3-5k for a 1 GHz digital scope from Tek/Keysight/whatever that's got a decent set of options included in that price. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy buying older gear. --- End quote --- A reasonable (relatively bug free) 1GHz scope from the Chinese brands will also set you back $8k to $15k. --- End quote --- Sure...but I'm asking why is that so? Surely the engineering difficulties of a 1 GHz scope are pretty much solved by now. When companies have long since moved on to building ridiculously fast 50 GHz+ real time scopes at the top of their product lines, why is a lowly 1 GHz DSO so expensive still? It seems that the low end stuff that is approachable in price hasn't moved much beyond the bandwidths of old workhorses like the Tek 465/485 and the like, yet the 465/485 were NOT cheap in their day. And digital electronics in particular aren't getting any slower. I'll give you a real-world hobbyist example: some of my interests are in FPGAs. I can clock designs at 100 MHz, and for small numbers of signals it's handy to be able to look at them on an oscilloscope for debugging. My 7904A CRO mainframe with a 7A19 amplifier and a P6201 FET probe is barely enough to make a good determination of clock integrity at 100 MHz, and that's already at least double the bandwidth of most entry level DSOs. I guess I'm wondering ultimately, why in this world of VLSI design and such, we can't have an affordable high speed DSO that exceeds the capabilities of huge lab grade equipment of decades past. --- End quote --- You'll find the probes that handle the higher bandwidth are sometimes worth as much or more than the scope itself and you might say that there is nothing much inside those probes so why are they so expensive ? ;) And to measure a 100MHz clock accurately you can forget about anything below 1GHz bandwidth plus throw in a 1.5GHz active probe ;) cheers |
| 0culus:
--- Quote from: thm_w on May 10, 2019, 10:44:30 pm --- --- Quote from: kilobyte on May 10, 2019, 04:51:58 pm ---https://info.tek.com/rs/584-WPH-840/images/en-Tektronix-New-Scope-Sweepstakes-Rules_May-2019.pdf The Sweepstake rules from the german Tek newsletter is showing a price of 36790USD for the grand price and 24729USD for the first price --- End quote --- Yeah its a bit odd that they'd be giving away a base model, but 24k for an optioned up model with a ton of probes/MSO probes would not be totally unreasonable. For the 5000 rigol scopes, highest end model = about 4x the price of the base model (6x in this case for tek). --- Quote from: 0culus on May 10, 2019, 05:10:37 pm ---Sure...but I'm asking why is that so? Surely the engineering difficulties of a 1 GHz scope are pretty much solved by now. When companies have long since moved on to building ridiculously fast 50 GHz+ real time scopes at the top of their product lines, why is a lowly 1 GHz DSO so expensive still? It seems that the low end stuff that is approachable in price hasn't moved much beyond the bandwidths of old workhorses like the Tek 465/485 and the like, yet the 465/485 were NOT cheap in their day. And digital electronics in particular aren't getting any slower. I'll give you a real-world hobbyist example: some of my interests are in FPGAs. I can clock designs at 100 MHz, and for small numbers of signals it's handy to be able to look at them on an oscilloscope for debugging. My 7904A CRO mainframe with a 7A19 amplifier and a P6201 FET probe is barely enough to make a good determination of clock integrity at 100 MHz, and that's already at least double the bandwidth of most entry level DSOs. I guess I'm wondering ultimately, why in this world of VLSI design and such, we can't have an affordable high speed DSO that exceeds the capabilities of huge lab grade equipment of decades past. --- End quote --- - They don't want to eat their market, and undercut themselves. Usually the 1GHz+ tech trickles down, and you want early adopters to pay more up front. Theoretically the Rigol MSO5000 is capable of 500MHz if not 1GHz+ in terms of hardware. Front end not sure. But no way in hell are they going to add those costs in, when they have higher end models to sell. - Active probes, are you going to sell a 1GHz scope and throw some shitty 350MHz probes in the box? oh wait, tek MSO5000 costs $18k and includes 4 500MHz passive probes :D - Probe detect/power connections, traditionally this separates lower from higher end oscilloscopes. As soon as some low end parts start adding it, everyone will consider it (which adds $$$). - Increased cost of circuit board dielectric (possibly). I'm not sure what point you are trying to make with the 465, it cost $1700 in 1973 which is about $10,000 today. Can you get a better scope for $10,000 these days? yes. --- End quote --- I guess the 485 is more applicable. --- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2019, 08:09:09 pm ---The problem is not in the hardware but the firmware of an oscilloscope has become very complicated due to all the features like decoding, measurements, statistics, etc. Nowadays oscilloscopes are more like complex data analysis systems than devices to show wiggly lines on a screen. I'm hearing good things about the Siglent SDS5000 series but that is not a cheap scope either and it seems Siglent is putting in some serious effort using beta testers. --- End quote --- Fair enough. --- Quote from: David Hess on May 11, 2019, 12:05:18 am --- --- Quote from: 0culus on May 10, 2019, 02:06:58 am ---Surely the engineering for a 1 GHz DSO is a solved problem that could be easily spun up in lower cost models now. --- End quote --- Go check the cost of integrated ADCs with a minimum bandwidth of 1 GHz and a sample rate suitable for real time acquisitions. At TI, they start at $212. Now check the cost of integrated parts for the vertical amplifier chain and none of them will support 1 GHz operation. They might work to 350 or 500 MHz. So higher performance is still going to require a custom design. --- Quote ---I'm not saying it should be a cheap as the usual Chinese OEMs, but I'd pay 3-5k for a 1 GHz digital scope from Tek/Keysight/whatever that's got a decent set of options included in that price. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy buying older gear. --- End quote --- What they could make for a lower cost is a sampling oscilloscope with a bandwidth of 4 to 8 GHz using standard surface mount construction but apparently there is not enough demand for such a thing. --- End quote --- Good points. I am a bit surprised this stuff is still so expensive. I guess high performance ADCs and related parts are still niche enough that economies of scale don't kick in. And if custom designs are still needed, that blows the hypothetical low price 1 GHz DSO out of the water. --- Quote from: snoopy on May 11, 2019, 12:19:56 am --- --- Quote from: 0culus on May 10, 2019, 05:10:37 pm --- --- Quote from: nctnico on May 10, 2019, 07:56:54 am --- --- Quote from: 0culus on May 10, 2019, 02:06:58 am ---I'm not saying it should be a cheap as the usual Chinese OEMs, but I'd pay 3-5k for a 1 GHz digital scope from Tek/Keysight/whatever that's got a decent set of options included in that price. Otherwise, I'm perfectly happy buying older gear. --- End quote --- A reasonable (relatively bug free) 1GHz scope from the Chinese brands will also set you back $8k to $15k. --- End quote --- Sure...but I'm asking why is that so? Surely the engineering difficulties of a 1 GHz scope are pretty much solved by now. When companies have long since moved on to building ridiculously fast 50 GHz+ real time scopes at the top of their product lines, why is a lowly 1 GHz DSO so expensive still? It seems that the low end stuff that is approachable in price hasn't moved much beyond the bandwidths of old workhorses like the Tek 465/485 and the like, yet the 465/485 were NOT cheap in their day. And digital electronics in particular aren't getting any slower. I'll give you a real-world hobbyist example: some of my interests are in FPGAs. I can clock designs at 100 MHz, and for small numbers of signals it's handy to be able to look at them on an oscilloscope for debugging. My 7904A CRO mainframe with a 7A19 amplifier and a P6201 FET probe is barely enough to make a good determination of clock integrity at 100 MHz, and that's already at least double the bandwidth of most entry level DSOs. I guess I'm wondering ultimately, why in this world of VLSI design and such, we can't have an affordable high speed DSO that exceeds the capabilities of huge lab grade equipment of decades past. --- End quote --- You'll find the probes that handle the higher bandwidth are sometimes worth as much or more than the scope itself and you might say that there is nothing much inside those probes so why are they so expensive ? ;) And to measure a 100MHz clock accurately you can forget about anything below 1GHz bandwidth plus throw in a 1.5GHz active probe ;) cheers --- End quote --- Well yeah, making a good probe isn't easy. They are all compromises in some way. My highest frequency active probes are my P6201 FET probes, which are favorably matched with the 7A19 amplifier in my 7904A, as well as with my 2465B. I also have a P6056 passive probe, theoretically good up to 3.5 GHz at a penalty of impedance, but haven't had chance to try it out yet. I got all of them for a fraction of what they cost new. I guess for me, it will be a waiting game to see how the high performance name brand 'scopes of today (last decade or so) age. In the meantime, you'll find me using my Tek boat anchors. Hoping to find a nice 7104 to go with my 7904A. :-/O |
| David Hess:
Low-z passive probes would be cheap if there was enough demand for them. |
| EEVblog:
--- Quote from: thm_w on May 10, 2019, 10:44:30 pm --- --- Quote from: kilobyte on May 10, 2019, 04:51:58 pm ---https://info.tek.com/rs/584-WPH-840/images/en-Tektronix-New-Scope-Sweepstakes-Rules_May-2019.pdf The Sweepstake rules from the german Tek newsletter is showing a price of 36790USD for the grand price and 24729USD for the first price --- End quote --- Yeah its a bit odd that they'd be giving away a base model, but 24k for an optioned up model with a ton of probes/MSO probes would not be totally unreasonable. For the 5000 rigol scopes, highest end model = about 4x the price of the base model (6x in this case for tek). --- End quote --- I think it's way to close to make the Series 4 viable against the Series 5. $3700 sounds more on the mark. Remember, they market this as suitable for "almost any budget", for me that's gotta be sub $5k for a decent optioned model. |
| TheDefpom:
I did a little video on this, just has some of my opinions in it, and references this thread. 🔴 #561 New Tektronix Oscilloscope - Tektronix 4 Series MSO ? https://youtu.be/C2-9QUDrDuQ |
| Navigation |
| Message Index |
| Next page |
| Previous page |