Tektronix New TBS2000B "Affordable" Oscilloscope

[rsjsouza]

https://info.tek.com/sso-total-protection.html

But that is an insurance you pay extra for; not warranty  . And likely equipment damage is already covered by other insurances already in place at companies and universities.

Absolutely correct! You can get that kind of insurance and extended warranties from Keysight, at very good prices... But it's extra.
If you take a look at standard 5 yr warranty for Tek TBS2000 series and Keysight DSOX2000 there are few paragraphs in both that are "boilerplate" identical between the two...

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Ah, and IIRC with the same 5 years warranty (Rigol just bumped their warranty terms).

[Wuerstchenhund]

Boy you sure have it in for Tek haven't you

Actually, no, I don't. I just know the difference between what's written in the marketing blurb and reality. There's a Grand Canyon size gap between them 

Don't get me wrong, it would be great if the Tektronix of today was the same Tektronix as back then during the analog days. But unfortunately it isn't. It's a shame, yes, but I don't have to convince myself that they are still something they are not.

Yes it is extra but at least you can get it which is why schools might do a bulk buy on these scopes to get a good deal

It's not. Because Tek Total Protection is pretty much the same that schools already get from all the other insurance brokers which cover their equipment.

I'm pretty sure 'Tek Total Protection' is not even provided by Tek but by one of the larger insurance providers where Tek just resells one of their plans under its own name. This is pretty common with most accidental protection schemes.

Total Protection for a TBS2000 scope costs somewhere around 20% of the unit's list price for 5 years of coverage (and insurance costs are usually calculated after list price even when you got a discount for the scopes). So you pay an inflated price for a scope so you have the privilege of buying accidental damage coverage for roughly the same it would cost you with other insurance providers, all which also insure equipment which is not test equipment and from any manufacturer.

Of course this varies by country, but in general accidental damage and theft (the latter which isn't included in Tek's Total Protection package) insurance isn't much of an issue for schools as they already have to cover everything else which gets into contact with students or which can be stolen, so a classroom full of scopes will normally just added under the existing agreements. In some countries like the UK, there's even a government scheme which provides coverage for schools.

Some schools may decide that it's not worth insuring their scopes. Because at the end of the day, the cost saving when buying cheaper scopes (like a Rigol DS1054z or Siglent SDS1202X-E) instead of the TBS2000 could well mean they could buy 50% more to cover damage and accidents over 5 years, and then the cost per scope may well be low enough that insuring them isn't really worth it.

I'm not saying the TBS2000, Tek's classroom package and even the Total Protection scheme are completely wrong. It is overly expensive, but there are definitely benefits in a single provider 360 degree classroom solution for basic electronic training (for example, private training providers which deliver certain kinds of training to businesses might be a good fit for such a gold-plated solution). But it's expensive, and for a school or university which isn't swimming in cash and which prefers to work after their own syllabuses other options will be a lot more economical.

[Wuerstchenhund]

https://info.tek.com/sso-total-protection.html

But that is an insurance you pay extra for; not warranty  . And likely equipment damage is already covered by other insurances already in place at companies and universities.

Absolutely correct! You can get that kind of insurance and extended warranties from Keysight, at very good prices... But it's extra.
If you take a look at standard 5 yr warranty for Tek TBS2000 series and Keysight DSOX2000 there are few paragraphs in both that are "boilerplate" identical between the two...

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Ah, and IIRC with the same 5 years warranty (Rigol just bumped their warranty terms).

This, exactly.

At the end of the day, how much damage is there really in 5 years of use? Even for a high school the amount of damage should be limited, it's not that the scopes will be used by elementary school students.

I would worry a lot more about damage to probes, but then passive probes are cheap.

[nctnico]

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Put them head to head and I'm quite sure that you'll find many positive points on the TBS2074B compared to the Rigol. There are a lot of things that don't make it into the datasheets but do make a difference when using an oscilloscope. Also keep in mind that the TBS2074B is designed for educational use and the DS1054Z isn't. Teachers cost money and having test equipment which -more or less- guides students through their course work can be beneficial.

[ResistorRob]

Wow! No serial decoding!! I take back my comment about I would buy this if it had touchscreen. How can it cost $2.5k and not have features found in scopes that only cost 20% as much. I 10000% completely understand that this scope is aimed at the education market so they perhaps removed some features to keep it simple and easy to use. But in my opinion they should include them, and just give instructors the ability to software enable or lockout serial decoding and other optional features. If a school wants to teach how to do serial decoding on a scope, then what are their options? A $7,000 Tek or a $500 Siglent (1104x-e)?

I just wish Tek would make something amazing for the hobbyist market. I understand why they don't, but it's just disappointing.

[Wuerstchenhund]

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Put them head to head and I'm quite sure that you'll find many positive points on the TBS2074B compared to the Rigol.

That might well be the case, but then, these are very basic scope we're talking about, the TBS2000 even more so than the Rigol DS1054z, which is pretty much amongst the cheapest scopes which aren't a toy.

There are a lot of things that don't make it into the datasheets but do make a difference when using an oscilloscope.

True, but considering that the DS1054z has been on the market for a long time and is now a very mature scope, it's easy to operate, the UI isn't overly complex or unintuitive, and even the triggers work surprisingly well, I'm not sure there's a lot that the TBS2000B could be doing better, especially when considering that all the other new Tek scopes were released with a number of annoying bugs.

Also, Tek isn't exactly known for having the most ergonomical UIs.

I can, however, see a clear difference when it comes to many functions which are available in the DS1054z (like serial decode) aren't even available in the TBS2000B.

Also keep in mind that the TBS2074B is designed for educational use and the DS1054Z isn't. Teachers cost money and having test equipment which -more or less- guides students through their course work can be beneficial.

As I said, this can be an advantage for certain situations. However, I really can't see a wide appeal, not just because many educational institutions prefer to follow their own syllabuses so Tek's prepared classroom material won't present a real benefit, but also simply because of the excessive pricing for an instrument which lacks many commonly expected functions. Because, really. the question is how useful is it in 2020 to stuff a classroom full of scopes with no serial decode when things like serial communication are so omni-preset that even beginners fiddle with Arduino and similar stuff. Even more so when the less capable scopes come at a premium.

Having said that, the TBS2000B certainly isn't the worst product Tek has come up with in recent years. Far from it.

[2N3055]

Rigol is not sleeping on job...

https://www.rigolna.com/education/

There is no any advantage to use Tek instead of Rigol (or any other scope that has curriculum support).

[nctnico]

Having said that, the TBS2000B certainly isn't the worst product Tek has come up with in recent years. Far from it.

That is kind of my point. However I agree Tek should add protocol decoding to it but likely the CPU which drives it may not have enough processing power for that function.

Rigol is not sleeping on job...
https://www.rigolna.com/education/

A few videos and PDFs are not equal to what Tek is offering; Tektronix (like Keysight) seems to have an entire ecosystem to turn the oscilloscope into an educational platform. I don't see that on Rigol's website. The link you posted is a typical non-solution just to tick a checkbox so a buzzword gets addressed.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Having said that, the TBS2000B certainly isn't the worst product Tek has come up with in recent years. Far from it.

That is kind of my point.

The only thing is that even the TBS2kB not being the worst Tek product is pretty meaningless because it's still far off from what the competition offers.

However I agree Tek should add protocol decoding to it but likely the CPU which drives it may not have enough processing power for that function.

Maybe. It can hardly be a cost issue, though.

Rigol is not sleeping on job...
https://www.rigolna.com/education/

A few videos and PDFs are not equal to what Tek is offering; Tektronix (like Keysight) seems to have an entire ecosystem to turn the oscilloscope into an educational platform. I don't see that on Rigol.
[/quote]

It seems to be more than just a few videos and pdfs:

"COLLABORATE     RIGOL provides tools that let you share work, monitor progress and operate remotely."

This suggests it's actually closer to Tek's classroom package. Videos and pdfs are just a small part of it.

Also, their training material covers many topics that Tek's doesn't.

[rsjsouza]

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Put them head to head and I'm quite sure that you'll find many positive points on the TBS2074B compared to the Rigol.

That might well be the case, but then, these are very basic scope we're talking about, the TBS2000 even more so than the Rigol DS1054z, which is pretty much amongst the cheapest scopes which aren't a toy.

Precisely. Having used the TDS3054 in the past (which I believe may be a close cousin to the TBS2000) and the DS1054Z for a few minutes on a demo session did not reveal significant differences. The Rigol probably lags a lot when performing heavy decoding or math, but so did the TDS3054 (with math).

Besides, a student learning to see wiggly waveforms in a circuits lab can use pretty much any basic oscilloscope, really. With the limitations of the TBS2000 (lack of the digital decoding or deep memory), it is mostly suited to the analog realm anyways - sure, you can always teach the students to decode the NRZ bit sequence directly on the signal, but that is certainly not productive nor adequate in today's world. The DS1054Z and even their biggest competitor Keysight can present the best of both worlds in a single equipment.

The availability of pre-existing teaching material can also be a drawback, although this would be less common. I  know several professors that shy away from pre-canned courses to prevent the copy-and-paste from previous semesters.

Is the Tek useless? Not by a large margin! I know people doing serious developments with Minipa oscilloscopes, which are well below Rigol's league. However, the value is what is being discussed here and it is simply not there.

[nctnico]

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Put them head to head and I'm quite sure that you'll find many positive points on the TBS2074B compared to the Rigol.

That might well be the case, but then, these are very basic scope we're talking about, the TBS2000 even more so than the Rigol DS1054z, which is pretty much amongst the cheapest scopes which aren't a toy.

Precisely. Having used the TDS3054 in the past (which I believe may be a close cousin to the TBS2000) and the DS1054Z for a few minutes on a demo session did not reveal significant differences. The Rigol probably lags a lot when performing heavy decoding or math, but so did the TDS3054 (with math).

No, the TBS2000 is not a close cousin to the TDS3054. Not by a long shot. The TBS2000 has 10Mpts per channel on all channels. Tek seems to have halved the memory for the TBS2000B series for some reason. My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

[jjoonathan]

Let's not forget Tek's most important features: the largest discounts off list (A), the oldest "nobody gets fired for buying X" reputation (B), and the comprehensive warranties (C). If you're the pointy haired boss, what use do you have for bits, MHz, options, and wfm/s? Hell, even absolute savings don't matter, it's not your money anyway. But you *can* brag about A on your resume, hedge against big mishaps with B, and let C transform small mishaps into demonstrations of your own supreme foresight. It's the perfect scope!

[rsjsouza]

What I don't get is... For the price of ONE TBS2074B you can get FIVE DS1054Z! You have replacements out of the wazoo without paying extra.

Put them head to head and I'm quite sure that you'll find many positive points on the TBS2074B compared to the Rigol.

That might well be the case, but then, these are very basic scope we're talking about, the TBS2000 even more so than the Rigol DS1054z, which is pretty much amongst the cheapest scopes which aren't a toy.

Precisely. Having used the TDS3054 in the past (which I believe may be a close cousin to the TBS2000) and the DS1054Z for a few minutes on a demo session did not reveal significant differences. The Rigol probably lags a lot when performing heavy decoding or math, but so did the TDS3054 (with math).

No, the TBS2000 is not a close cousin to the TDS3054. Not by a long shot. The TBS2000 has 10Mpts per channel on all channels. Tek seems to have halved the memory for the TBS2000B series for some reason. My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

Perhaps I should have clarified better. I was thinking about the UI arrangement and added the performance bit in my post. I agree that, performance-wise, the two Teks may differ, but the UI organization and layout did bot change that much across the years. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

Not that surprising, considering the DS1052E is a simple scope from 2008 with tiny screen, limited functionality and an UI which was 'inspired' by the early TDS scopes. Obviously a scope which came out 10 years later and with a bigger screen is nicer to use than that old Rigol.

However, it would be a mistake to conclude from that that the TBS2000 is the better or nicer to use scope compared to other modern day entry level scopes. Because current entry-level scopes like the Rigol DS1054z (which is already 6 years old) or the Siglent DS1000X-E are a far cry from that old DS1052E. Even more so the Rigol MSO5000 and Siglent SDS2000X+, both which are within the TBS2000(B)'s price range.

I just watched a video (Tek's 'TB2000 Technical Overview') on YT, and frankly the TBS2000 seems to be a lot closer to older simple scopes like the old Siglent  SDS1000CML Series (a $299 scope) than to the entry-level scopes we have today, both in UI and functionality (leaving the educational content such as the explanation of 555 timers of the TBS2000 aside because it's of little use outside education).

The TBS2000 UI actually remembers me a lot of the Hantek DS4000 (another simple scope).

The current standard of entry-level scopes like Rigol DS1054z, Rigol MSO5000, Siglent SDS1000X-E and Siglent SDS2000X+ have evolved quite a lot from that.

Let's not forget Tek's most important features: the largest discounts off list (A), the oldest "nobody gets fired for buying X" reputation (B), and the comprehensive warranties (C). If you're the pointy haired boss, what use do you have for bits, MHz, options, and wfm/s? Hell, even absolute savings don't matter, it's not your money anyway. But you *can* brag about A on your resume, hedge against big mishaps with B, and let C transform small mishaps into demonstrations of your own supreme foresight. It's the perfect scope!

At least point (A) is definitely wrong, Tek's incentives are amongst the lowest in the industry (although they have started to become a bit more flexible, very likely down to the economic pressure coming with dwindling sales).

As to (C), the warranty is actually the same as you get from Rigol and Siglent. Or any other manufacturer.

You're somewhat correct with (B), although the same can be said about Keysight (which was Agilent which was HP), LeCroy and Rohde & Schwarz. Actually, these three names have, in general, a much better reputation than Tektronix today.

Also, don't forget that the number of us old farts who knew Tektronix from the analog scope days is getting lower and lower.

[stafil]

Are the knobs at least pushable in this one, or they are not, like the other "affordable" scopes by Tek?

Also, 800x480 resolution? Geez... (But I guess better than the 400×240 they have on their other affordable scopes)

I love how in their website the compare it side by side with Keysight's X2000. A 10 year old scope. I guess the point they try to make is that this scope 10 years ago would be awesome.

[nctnico]

My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

I just watched a video (Tek's 'TB2000 Technical Overview') on YT, and frankly the TBS2000 seems to be a lot closer to older simple scopes like the old Siglent  SDS1000CML

So no hands on experience then... get a TBS2000 and take it for a spin. It is not as bad as you think even though the functionality is limited.

[snoopy]

My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

Not that surprising, considering the DS1052E is a simple scope from 2008 with tiny screen, limited functionality and an UI which was 'inspired' by the early TDS scopes. Obviously a scope which came out 10 years later and with a bigger screen is nicer to use than that old Rigol.

However, it would be a mistake to conclude from that that the TBS2000 is the better or nicer to use scope compared to other modern day entry level scopes. Because current entry-level scopes like the Rigol DS1054z (which is already 6 years old) or the Siglent DS1000X-E are a far cry from that old DS1052E. Even more so the Rigol MSO5000 and Siglent SDS2000X+, both which are within the TBS2000(B)'s price range.

I just watched a video (Tek's 'TB2000 Technical Overview') on YT, and frankly the TBS2000 seems to be a lot closer to older simple scopes like the old Siglent  SDS1000CML Series (a $299 scope) than to the entry-level scopes we have today, both in UI and functionality (leaving the educational content such as the explanation of 555 timers of the TBS2000 aside because it's of little use outside education).

The TBS2000 UI actually remembers me a lot of the Hantek DS4000 (another simple scope).

The current standard of entry-level scopes like Rigol DS1054z, Rigol MSO5000, Siglent SDS1000X-E and Siglent SDS2000X+ have evolved quite a lot from that.

Which of these entry level scopes have a search and mark feature or the ability to use advanced probes ?

[2N3055]

My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

Not that surprising, considering the DS1052E is a simple scope from 2008 with tiny screen, limited functionality and an UI which was 'inspired' by the early TDS scopes. Obviously a scope which came out 10 years later and with a bigger screen is nicer to use than that old Rigol.

However, it would be a mistake to conclude from that that the TBS2000 is the better or nicer to use scope compared to other modern day entry level scopes. Because current entry-level scopes like the Rigol DS1054z (which is already 6 years old) or the Siglent DS1000X-E are a far cry from that old DS1052E. Even more so the Rigol MSO5000 and Siglent SDS2000X+, both which are within the TBS2000(B)'s price range.

I just watched a video (Tek's 'TB2000 Technical Overview') on YT, and frankly the TBS2000 seems to be a lot closer to older simple scopes like the old Siglent  SDS1000CML Series (a $299 scope) than to the entry-level scopes we have today, both in UI and functionality (leaving the educational content such as the explanation of 555 timers of the TBS2000 aside because it's of little use outside education).

The TBS2000 UI actually remembers me a lot of the Hantek DS4000 (another simple scope).

The current standard of entry-level scopes like Rigol DS1054z, Rigol MSO5000, Siglent SDS1000X-E and Siglent SDS2000X+ have evolved quite a lot from that.

Which of these entry level scopes have a search and mark feature or the ability to use advanced probes ?

All of them except cheapest DS1054Z have search (also GW Instek has  many advanced features on GDS2000E series scopes).
None of them have probe interface, because people who use 4000 USD probes don't buy 500 USD scopes. You can always attach active probes with external PSU on any scope..

[Wuerstchenhund]

My customer which has the TBS2004 also has a Rigol 1052; everyone is using the TBS2004 if they can.

I just watched a video (Tek's 'TB2000 Technical Overview') on YT, and frankly the TBS2000 seems to be a lot closer to older simple scopes like the old Siglent  SDS1000CML

So no hands on experience then...

No, I don't. This isn't the class of scopes I normally buy and unlike the DS1054z it's way to expensive to just buy one as a toy.

I might try to play with one at the next exhibition once this coronavirus thing is over.

get a TBS2000 and take it for a spin. It is not as bad as you think even though the functionality is limited.

Well, can you explain then where exactly, in your opinion, it is so much better than any of the current entry level scopes which cost a lot less? Because it's clearly not functionality nor does it seem to be the UI.

So I'm really curious, what is it? 

Which of these entry level scopes have a search and mark feature

I think the only one who doesn't is the DS1000z, and that is a fraction of the price of a TBS2000B.

or the ability to use advanced probes ?

All of them, because there are many advanced (i.e. more than the usual passive probes) probes which have a standard BNC output and don't require a special probe interface.

If you meant which of them had an active probe interface then the answer is none. Simply because it makes no sense, because as 2N3055 said no-one with a sane mind would use a $4k probe with a $300 scope.

The only place where this makes sense is in a Tek classrom environment, because the active interface allows the use of the vastly more expensive probes for demonstration purposes while avoiding the need to spend even more money on a scope where active probe interfaces are actually useful.

[nctnico]

Well, can you explain then where exactly, in your opinion, it is so much better than any of the current entry level scopes which cost a lot less? Because it's clearly not functionality nor does it seem to be the UI.

So I'm really curious, what is it? 

Good quality screen, sharp traces and it doesn't have stupid things (bugs if you want) like infinite persistence dissapearing when you enable the cursors as you sometimes find on the lower end scopes. The cursors also have annotations and (IIRC) you can also place the cursors outside the screen to position them accurately on a longer timespan (which is a bit of a Tektronix specific feature). What I like are the little details that make it work for you; nothing gets in the way to get the job done. My biggest complaint is the lack of a touchscreen. I keep pressing the screen. Would I buy it? Probably not but there is little to hate about it.

Special probes can be an advantage. It wouldn't be the first time I assisted in a purchase process where a single probe was more expensive than the oscilloscope.

[stafil]

Well, another problem with Tek is their software support. I got a chance to play with a DPO2022B. My favorite "feature" is the dedicated "Test" button. When you press it, it pops up a window saying that "The features in this menu will be provided in a future firmware upgrade".

The latest firmware is dated 8/22/2014. 6 years on, still waiting for the button to be activated 

Don't know how a company can pull something like this off...

[nctnico]

Well, another problem with Tek is their software support. I got a chance to play with a DPO2022B. My favorite "feature" is the dedicated "Test" button. When you press it, it pops up a window saying that "The features in this menu will be provided in a future firmware upgrade".

But is there any spec on which feature should be activated by the button? Or better put: did Tektronix promise something which they didn't deliver? It could be a generic pop-up for unused buttons. I agree the text is suggestive though.

[wp_wp]

Excuse me.
How to open the TBS2000B series scopes firmware *.TEK file?

[tautech]

Excuse me.
How to open the TBS2000B series scopes firmware *.TEK file?

Might be the same as here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tds-1000-2000-3000-bw-hack/