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Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

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Vince:

--- Quote from: Specmaster on July 04, 2022, 07:10:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on July 04, 2022, 05:03:11 pm ---<snip>

On cars there are diminishing returns on fuel cost and repairs. You end up paying more keeping something which is why I got rid of that fucking awful Fiat and will be getting rid of my Citroen soon.

Edit: rise in fuel prices = inefficiency liability.

--- End quote ---
This might make you rethink that strategy



--- End quote ---


Looks like we are subscribed to the same channel !  :-DD

Yes, silly eh ? Americans are now realizing what people in Europe figured out 20 years ago... out of necessity.
My Safrane will remain with me as long as it makes financial sense compared to a newer car. Newer cars being what they are, this mean my best interest is to pamper my old Safrane so it treats me well for many years to come. Whatever comes next, forced by laws sadly, is only going to be a money pit, disappointment  and frustration, and anger, and cursing. So I try to delay this disaster to as far away as possible.

m k:

--- Quote from: Robert763 on July 04, 2022, 05:11:35 pm ---
--- Quote from: m k on July 04, 2022, 10:45:12 am ---
--- Quote from: mnementh on July 03, 2022, 06:15:32 pm ---
--- Quote from: m k on July 03, 2022, 04:35:27 pm ---
--- Quote from: mnementh on July 03, 2022, 02:46:40 pm ---
--- Quote from: Robert763 on July 03, 2022, 04:22:44 am ---
--- Quote from: mnementh on July 03, 2022, 01:34:23 am ---WELCOME TO 5000!           
...
I think this is probably a good point to call it a night. ;)   mnem    :-BROKE   
--- End quote ---

Hi Dwagon,   Did you see my posts
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4275517/#msg4275517
and
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/msg4275556/#msg4275556

Looks like same video scheme as the 892x series a Gondbes 8220 video converter would be my next stop.
--- End quote ---

Yup, sure did; and followed that rabbit-hole down to that LCD mod. Very tidy! :-+

Problem is that the models we have tech ref on... the ones we've been talking about... are all proper non-greyscale monochrome monitors. Also, this family of monitors are all "1000 line" resolution (IIRC, I read that they "use" ~960 lines), so not too sanguine aboot dropping down to 800x600 resolution.  :-//

There's a CDM-7SX191 monitor on eBay right now for $80... I've been meaning to get into one of these Chinesium video scan converters as a diag tool for a while, so that might still happen... but I think that if I were going to fix this scope, I'd prolly bite the bullet and buy that monitor.

This of course is all dependent on how my dispute resolves out.  ;) I wanted to spend a little time tinkering just to see if there were signs of life; I was hoping it might be easy to mod the CDM-7SF191 I have in that 54600A so it thinks it's a CDM-7SX191.

I may instead try remoting into it over the RS-232 instead... in which case I'll soon be hunting down that software you posted and firing up the old WinXP Toughbook.  >:D

mnem
 :blah:

--- End quote ---

More CRT types needed.

54600A Pixel_data and Marker_dots are already 32 levels internally, but only 2nd and 4th of Pixel_data are used externally.
So taking out all five is pretty simple but the situation should also be very clearly visible in the monitor.
Old Intensity reference pot can grant its pins.

54600A Pixel_data goes through U37 74LS194 and then HB goes to U30 74ALS08, FB does the same but first ORing Marker_dots in U31 74F32, so either will do a final FB.
All gates are used so extra chip must be added, no idea when the device is designed but 5 TTL monitor pins feels a bit too much.

nixiefreqq's neck board has 1 FET and 3 BJTs, I'd say that 5 TTL pins are not there.

Since 74S03 is the earlier model my guess is that later monitors became better and external data level reference was not needed anymore.
So comparing two datalines will tell how the situation is.

Testing with an extra *old* computer monitor should also be pretty easy, if one is available.
One gate chip is needed, old display modes were selected by swapping sync polarities.
Using only green as data is also fine.

Functional monitor is not needed if vertical line movement is possible, since its color value is different it should be very visible.
Maybe duplicating buttons of two side by side machines can do settings.

Resolution
255 V x 500 H 54600B
256 V x 500 H 54615B

54620-series
255 vertical by 1000 horizontal points (waveform area)
32 levels of gray scale

Is it really 1000 pixels?
Vertical is the same as before so monitor is probably also pretty same as before.
I tried to find some tube info but everything was too old.
So no real idea of physical resolution of those 7" mono tubes.
But it can be checked, just compare those old and new 546xx horizontal lines, 1000 res has half the pixel length.
If shorter pixel length is there then different CRT must be also present, if that is the key.
--- End quote ---

It is entirely possible I misremembered the line count on this monitor and conflated the numbers with those above. We know that the 54645A is using a PAL combi chip, so up to 625 lines (I can't remember if that's interlaced or not) to play with; so yeah, I can see those numbers being legit.

54645A and 54600A both use the same DataRay CDM-7SF191 part number. I've attached some pics. The main and CRT PCBs appear identical, even though the older CDM-7SF191 in my 54600A uses a Panasonic M18JCB34GH CRT vs the Toshiba E9054B31-CDHT CRT in my 54645A. That Toshiba CRT, however, is the same as the in the 54621D, so the CRTs in all 3 models must be interchangeable?

I'm thinking now that my original surmise is correct... provided nothing wrong with the mainboard, we should be able to get something useful on the screen with the 54621D and the CDM-7SF191 from my 54600A. Just need to see how they're modulating the brightness to get those greyscales. I guess my next step will be a breakout PCB.  ;D

For now, tho, I've had to put it away; wifey has requested I look at the AC in our old Saturn.

mnem
 :-/O

--- End quote ---

Yes, CRTs are definitely interchangeable.

So monitor hack, shouldn't be overly difficult.

Old Hitachi/Matsushita schematics is too old and something seems to be missing but those two neck boards are very same.
Older neck board uses 74S03 as parallel inverters powering contrast trimmer directly and newer one seems to be different only from there.
Oldest has no neck board but contrast pot connection is pretty exactly same as 74S03 version of neck board.

Are all those 54620-series machines already closed.
More revealing solder side picture of neck board would be nice.

Completely forgot 54645A/D, its resolution was clear.
313 V x 512 H (pixels)

That's clearly PAL, but proportional and lowres.
Is there visible space between H-lines?
Back in the day CGA was clearly using only every other line of available physical pixels.
From pictures online there could be something missing but it is not much, dimming can reveal something but it doesn't change anything.
Full hires for PAL is 31250Hz H-sync, 31500Hz for NTSC.
Old Hitachi/Matsushita schematics has 24270Hz as H-sync and 60Hz as V-sync so 404 lines possible.

PAL and NTSC were also defined as 720 pixels wide, but no idea how much was physically available, not much more I guess.
One thing I remember though, very small pictures were exceptionally sharp.
So more than 500 was a norm already back then but no idea what was the major barrier, screen material or cathode ray energy.
FET in newer neck board indicates that rising time had a role.

From online pictures I'd say that 54600B grid is 100x60 pixels, vertical center line is around 128.
Vertical 256 must be a grid area, horizontal 500 seems to be all.
54622D pictures were pretty bad but horizontal pixel count seems to be more than those 54600Bs.

How this all then should be converted to VGA or SVGA.
Anti-aliasing is difficult when contrast is high and lines narrow.

One other thing, PAL pixel is not round, for that it needs a 5:4 screen, but that is for 576 visible scanlines.
Very nice, and clear.
What is the shape of the screen here?
Online pictures are pretty hopeless.

--- End quote ---

PAL and NTSC don't have pixels, only lines. Horizontal resolution is only limited by bandwidth.

--- End quote ---

What is your point?

Specmaster:

--- Quote from: bd139 on July 04, 2022, 07:16:06 pm ---
--- Quote from: Specmaster on July 04, 2022, 07:10:01 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on July 04, 2022, 05:03:11 pm ---<snip>

On cars there are diminishing returns on fuel cost and repairs. You end up paying more keeping something which is why I got rid of that fucking awful Fiat and will be getting rid of my Citroen soon.

Edit: rise in fuel prices = inefficiency liability.

--- End quote ---
This might make you rethink that strategy



--- End quote ---

LOL no. 19-23 mpg. In no way that makes sense. Even in America.

--- End quote ---
No, I wouldn't either, but the points he raises are what I was hinting at. If you have a car that is running well, reasonably cost-effective to run and has no major body / rust / mechanical issues, then why the hell risk junking that for something like he says that is really designed with the good for 70,000 miles ethos and then scrap it for another plastic car etc, which is not good for the planet either.

bd139:

--- Quote from: Specmaster on July 04, 2022, 06:57:42 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on July 04, 2022, 04:45:39 pm ---<SNIP>
It's not a luxury in 2022. It's one of the main interaction points of society and an expectation.

I'd rather have a newer phone (under 4 years old iPhone) than a better car if I had the choice.

--- End quote ---
Well how can I put this delicately, you claimed many times here in this thread that you're a cheapskate, well that would seem from the above that you're a cheapskate by choice when it suits you. For many people, they don't have that choice, they are cheapskates through necessity, so a newer phone is a luxury for them.

Many need a car and also need that car to be reliable if they live in the sticks, whereas you are living in perhaps the best city in the UK for public transport options and best fares, so you could, as you have said before, manage without a car at all. That is far from being a reality across most of the UK, where public transport is not seen as a public service, but a profit generator for the wealthy owners. If a service is not being profitable, it suffers a drastically reduced service, even down to sometimes a single service a day or even weekly with the local authority subsidizing it.

That situation was bad enough for some really rural areas when it was the National Bus Company, like it was when I worked on the buses, but since deregulation and subsequent privatisation, the only thing that matters is pure profit and that really was the time when it became far cheaper for most people, especially those with families, even those in large towns, to convert to becoming car owners.

With the UK's track record for deregulation and then eventual privatisation, that even gave a massive boost to mobile phone uptake as when they sold off the British Telecom, it was the death for loads of public boxes (something I remember only too well) I used to have to phone in to H/O at times during the working day while out on the road to reply to pager messages. That caused the company to drop pagers and go with car phones, so we could be conducted directly by either H/O or customers because it was not always possible to find either a phone box that worked or one that didn't already have a massive queue of other sales reps / customer service engineers all waiting to use it to respond to their pages, all while keeping a beady eye open for the dreaded yellow jackets (traffic wardens) or the Police who would regularly move us on because we were causing obstruction to the flow of traffic. :palm:

If you didn't work in an industry where that was the normal practise, then you really have zero idea just how fraught those times were.

If companies also perceive that Android is a serious threat to their security, then let them issue iPhones / Blackberries to their staff. I have never known a company that actually expected their staff to provide a mobile phone, it was always a company asset and had to be handed back upon leaving their employment and strictly NO private calls were allowed.

--- End quote ---

I respect people who are up front with me.

It's probably a good idea that I clean up these perceptions here and my attitude.

There is one important aggregate facet of life that people seem to always to completely ignore and that is security. I'm not talking about wielding guns against hypothetical assailants, like some members of the TEA fraternity, the odd armed chav or filling your house up with tins of beans for when the nuclear mutant zombies attack. No I'm talking about being aware of what can change for you and having a plan ready to roll against it. That means actually understanding changes that might occur.

To do that your skills, knowledge and tools need to adapt to societal and employment risks and you need to make sure that they are tested regularly and that you understand what the risks are. That requires research and planning.

With respect to the smartphone, it doesn't matter who you are or what you do, it is absolutely the most important tool of this century. You are expected by society to actually be able to communicate freely and using tools which are prescribed to you, not the other way round. This isn't about having a company phone, it's about being literally ready to jump on the next opportunity that comes along before there's a queue. And that's your responsibility and can't be abstracted to someone else or shrugged off. Also it's not just a phone for making calls on; it's a pocket computer that allows you to leverage even more opportunities and a lot of the time both other people and the government expect you to meet them half way.

The cheapskate comes from the compromise between balancing security and budgetary concerns. At one end of the scale there is negligence and lack of preparation that is now affecting Vince (sorry Vince but you shot yourself). This costs you opportunities and incurs incidental costs which may be out of budget. On the other hand there is overspending which means trading any financial security you have for high risk assets (buying nice cars when you have £20 in the bank) which causes large incidental losses.

Right in the middle is making sure you have a minimum spec competent tools. I specified earlier a reasonable refurb iPhone 7 as an example which is fine for this case. It's cheap, still supported by Apple, spares and reliable service are available.

As for most of the people you refer to above in the privatisation comments, they did not even think for two seconds that their situation was possibly even a risk, nor did they prepare for it in any way when they had the opportunity to do so. Most people are completely fungible as well which is a massive security risk. Having been stuck in some shitty backwards towns for most of the 90s I was well aware of the risks of staying there and my employment, upskilled and took opportunities and got out of it. The risk now is that the globalised transport fuel supply chain is knackering those who chose to stay, and yes it was a choice. But of course everyone is sitting there being fed the shit about rising prices everywhere, sitting in their own mire and doing sweet fuck all about it.

Case in point, when I was sitting there at the bus stop with my 10 minute reliable metro service earlier, I took this. Owning a car is a risk. Doing a job that requires owning a car is a risk. Living somewhere that requires a car is a risk. I saw this 12 years ago when I moved here. I only own a car because it is a luxury but that's rapidly becoming a liability.



I hate looking at America which is entirely built on energy usage. That's going to go to shit very vey quickly when it does go.

YMMV but consider security/risk first. The real cheapskate can see the horizon, knows what is going to cost them everything in the long run and doesn't care about the best priced bananas in the supermarket or the 70€ android because they are insignificant really. The cheapskate is only scared of unexpected expenses, uncalculated risks and unreliable technology.

mnementh:

--- Quote from: med6753 on July 04, 2022, 07:59:04 pm ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 04, 2022, 07:55:15 pm ---
--- Quote from: mnementh on July 04, 2022, 06:19:38 pm ---Happy COLONIAL REVOLT DAY everybody!!!   :-DD

--- End quote ---

And a Happy Treasonous Traitor's Sedition Day to you too. :-DD

--- End quote ---

Oh go piss up a rope.  :-DD
--- End quote ---

Why is my tail suddenly all wet....?   :o


mnem
*grrrrrrrr...* med, that's not a rope...

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