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Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

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mnementh:

--- Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 10:11:40 am ---
--- Quote from: ch_scr on July 07, 2022, 10:08:21 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 07, 2022, 08:59:07 am ---
--- Quote from: mnementh on July 07, 2022, 12:49:07 am ---Condolences then. I'd rather drill screws through my feet than ever use that fustercluck again. Only app I ever found less intuitive than EagleCAD.  :palm:

mnem
*cringe*

--- End quote ---

Ah, so you've never used FreeCAD then?  >:D

--- End quote ---
I can't see, why the hate on FreeCAD? I use it regularly for over 4 years, so somewhat biased  ::)
Every CAD tool has it's hooks and it has to fit towards the way you think. Naturally, not everyone can work with every tool, people don't think the same way - and if the tool is structured contrary to your internal workflow, you'll never get along. You'll have to use a different tool, better suited to the way you think, to get good results and not hurt yourself continually. People try to get started in Freecad (or any tool really) for a month and not get anywhere, fall into that category. Of course the other thing are people coming from different tools, that expect things to work in a specific way.
But I've seen and helped people getting started in Kicad and Freecad around me, and would not say getting started in one is much harder than the other. Like FreeCAD, there are people hating on Kicad because "all the buttons are in the wrong places" - IMHO, for the same reason, see above.
Yes, FreeCAD allows you to do things in different ways, and some of them will shoot you in the foot later. Sometimes there is only one good way. Part of the learning curve is to learn to design around that. Yes, it would be better for that not to be the case, but I need it today. IMHO it's still the best bet for a free CAD tool with a wide feature set. It get's the job done and for a free CAM tool there is no alternative AFAIK. At least none that's easier to use, or even on par feature-wise. That said, to construct a mechanism or whole machine / device, I would not want to do it in FreeCAD. But for the odd 3d printed or 2.5d milled part? More than good enough!

--- End quote ---

From my perspective it's just the clunk factor. It's ok but it needs a lot of polish.

Most of the open source software out there hasn't had "the 2nd 90%" of the development effort expended.
--- End quote ---

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

This was 100% my experience with EagleCAD; and everything I've read, heard or made up about FreeCAD says it is worse.

mnem
I don't need my testicles ground into a fine paste by software that constantly    ; I'm just fine with them being a little lumpy.

ch_scr:

--- Quote from: mnementh on July 07, 2022, 12:09:52 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 10:11:40 am ---
--- Quote from: ch_scr on July 07, 2022, 10:08:21 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 07, 2022, 08:59:07 am ---
--- Quote from: mnementh on July 07, 2022, 12:49:07 am ---Condolences then. I'd rather drill screws through my feet than ever use that fustercluck again. Only app I ever found less intuitive than EagleCAD.  :palm:

mnem
*cringe*

--- End quote ---

Ah, so you've never used FreeCAD then?  >:D

--- End quote ---
I can't see, why the hate on FreeCAD? I use it regularly for over 4 years, so somewhat biased  ::)
Every CAD tool has it's hooks and it has to fit towards the way you think. Naturally, not everyone can work with every tool, people don't think the same way - and if the tool is structured contrary to your internal workflow, you'll never get along. You'll have to use a different tool, better suited to the way you think, to get good results and not hurt yourself continually. People try to get started in Freecad (or any tool really) for a month and not get anywhere, fall into that category. Of course the other thing are people coming from different tools, that expect things to work in a specific way.
But I've seen and helped people getting started in Kicad and Freecad around me, and would not say getting started in one is much harder than the other. Like FreeCAD, there are people hating on Kicad because "all the buttons are in the wrong places" - IMHO, for the same reason, see above.
Yes, FreeCAD allows you to do things in different ways, and some of them will shoot you in the foot later. Sometimes there is only one good way. Part of the learning curve is to learn to design around that. Yes, it would be better for that not to be the case, but I need it today. IMHO it's still the best bet for a free CAD tool with a wide feature set. It get's the job done and for a free CAM tool there is no alternative AFAIK. At least none that's easier to use, or even on par feature-wise. That said, to construct a mechanism or whole machine / device, I would not want to do it in FreeCAD. But for the odd 3d printed or 2.5d milled part? More than good enough!

--- End quote ---

From my perspective it's just the clunk factor. It's ok but it needs a lot of polish.

Most of the open source software out there hasn't had "the 2nd 90%" of the development effort expended.
--- End quote ---

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

This was 100% my experience with EagleCAD; and everything I've read, heard or made up about FreeCAD says it is worse.

mnem
I don't need my testicles ground into a fine paste by software that constantly    ; I'm just fine with them being a little lumpy.

--- End quote ---
I tried to use Eagle once (but had been touched by Kicad's grace before) and could not get anything done. Turned and fled. I've literally rather gotten an F in that course than to touch that SW again. I'll happily agree on the part that it's counterintuitive for me.
But with FreeCAD, it really wasn't too bad, even back then? Even in the beginning, it wasn't the UI that was holding me back, more the lack of 3d modelling experience and Freecad's "it won't fit that way" bugs.
Edit: I think what parts a good from a bad UI (or an intuitive from an non-/counter-intuitive one): if you have not used it for a while, you can get back into it easily. No consulting the manual, scratching your head for a while, etc.

AVGresponding:

--- Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 09:46:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 07, 2022, 09:46:03 am ---
--- Quote from: Specmaster on July 07, 2022, 07:57:04 am ---Currently, sitting here waiting for the workmen to arrive. We are having the bathroom refitted and were told that they would be with us this morning at 8.00AM, now 8.54AM and still sign of them. The job is supposed to take upto 2 weeks, thinking of taking friendly bets on the completion date  :palm:

--- End quote ---

Before placing any bets: Are the builders (1) Native English, or (2) Polish?

--- End quote ---

If they are English then it'll take 4 weeks due to the lateness, slacking and tea breaks.

--- End quote ---

There are shit workers in every field; one just decided to resign earlier today on national TV, for example.



Here at Northern Shithole Council, projects finish late for several reasons, here are a few of the most common, not necessarily in order of impact or timeline:

1. The design keeps changing

2. The client keeps adding more things on

3. The design is wrong (doesn't match the building, not conforming to codes, not conforming to the known laws of physics, etc)

4. There is no design/are no drawings

5. The gear is not ordered early enough  (ie light fittings with a 4-6 week lead time are ordered 1 week before the end of the job)

6. Sub-contractors are not booked early enough (ie they aren't available when you want them because they are already booked up)

7. Sub-contractors do substandard work which then has to be remediated (ie they decide that using metal trunking as per spec is unnecessary and use all-round-band instead)

8. The order of works is incorrect (ie the painters are sent in before all the first fixing is done, then again before all the second fixing is done, then again after that...)

9. The labour dispositions are badly managed (either too few or too many people on site)

10. Asbestos surveys are incomplete/inaccurate/absent

11. The specification is wrong/non-existent

12. Access equipment is inappropriate/unavailable


I can tell you now, that despite Council workers reputation for laziness, 9 times out of 10 when you see them standing around drinking tea or otherwise apparently doing nothing it is because of one of the aforementioned reasons, or they are discussing how to proceed. That 1 time in 10, yes, they are tossing it off, but in my experience it's less often than any office worker ever does.

Likewise remediation of apprentice/useless bastard fuckups doesn't often take long, as it usually gets spotted early enough.

Neper:

--- Quote from: mnementh on July 07, 2022, 12:09:52 pm ---There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.
--- End quote ---

Reminds me of the software that processed photos and then saved them as Photo 0, 1, 2, 3...

Do programmers' wives also have their firstborne as the 0th child?

med6753:

--- Quote from: AVGresponding on July 07, 2022, 12:46:51 pm ---
--- Quote from: bd139 on July 07, 2022, 09:46:41 am ---
--- Quote from: Cerebus on July 07, 2022, 09:46:03 am ---
--- Quote from: Specmaster on July 07, 2022, 07:57:04 am ---Currently, sitting here waiting for the workmen to arrive. We are having the bathroom refitted and were told that they would be with us this morning at 8.00AM, now 8.54AM and still sign of them. The job is supposed to take upto 2 weeks, thinking of taking friendly bets on the completion date  :palm:

--- End quote ---

Before placing any bets: Are the builders (1) Native English, or (2) Polish?

--- End quote ---

If they are English then it'll take 4 weeks due to the lateness, slacking and tea breaks.

--- End quote ---

There are shit workers in every field; one just decided to resign earlier today on national TV, for example.



Here at Northern Shithole Council, projects finish late for several reasons, here are a few of the most common, not necessarily in order of impact or timeline:

1. The design keeps changing

2. The client keeps adding more things on

3. The design is wrong (doesn't match the building, not conforming to codes, not conforming to the known laws of physics, etc)

4. There is no design/are no drawings

5. The gear is not ordered early enough  (ie light fittings with a 4-6 week lead time are ordered 1 week before the end of the job)

6. Sub-contractors are not booked early enough (ie they aren't available when you want them because they are already booked up)

7. Sub-contractors do substandard work which then has to be remediated (ie they decide that using metal trunking as per spec is unnecessary and use all-round-band instead)

8. The order of works is incorrect (ie the painters are sent in before all the first fixing is done, then again before all the second fixing is done, then again after that...)

9. The labour dispositions are badly managed (either too few or too many people on site)

10. Asbestos surveys are incomplete/inaccurate/absent

11. The specification is wrong/non-existent

12. Access equipment is inappropriate/unavailable


I can tell you now, that despite Council workers reputation for laziness, 9 times out of 10 when you see them standing around drinking tea or otherwise apparently doing nothing it is because of one of the aforementioned reasons, or they are discussing how to proceed. That 1 time in 10, yes, they are tossing it off, but in my experience it's less often than any office worker ever does.

Likewise remediation of apprentice/useless bastard fuckups doesn't often take long, as it usually gets spotted early enough.

--- End quote ---

Over here......when it comes to highway workers and this is no stereotype.....there is one guy digging the hole and three guys standing around watching him and jerking off.   ::)

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