Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 15747345 times)

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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132250 on: December 01, 2022, 05:59:59 pm »
I don't want a bench meter to have 4W, but I do want my future bench meter to have 4W... if that makes sense.
My main goal with a bench meter is to have at least one very accurate voltmeter in the lab, and since these cost money, I would rather want it to do 4W as well for increased bang for buck, so that I don't have to buy yet another meter just for that (that would take extra space as well)

Here you go Vince, as I have said many times, very seldom does anyone doing what you and I do require anything more than 4.5 digit so a 5.5 digit is a real luxury, so little point in spending major money to acquire anything better. Of course if one was to fall into our hands for very little money, i.e., the same as a 5.5 digit, of course we'd grab it, for the bragging rights :-DD :-DD

Here is Dave extolling the virtues of a Fluke 8842A, but unlike Dave's, mine does have the AC option installed and I think it also has the GPIB interface as well, that said, I never use it.


If I listened to you, I would not even have a soldering iron, I would just by a lighter to heat the board up and pour home made solder made out of... god knows what, but I am sure you have some ideas !  ;D

I thought on TEA we bought gear because we wanted to buy it, not because we needed it ?
Well, we are somewhere in between those two extremes I guess, it's never all black or white.... it's all shades of grey.
It's a hobby, we don't need anything. Any piece of equipment we have is not required, we only have it because we decided we needed it to address a "problem" that we created ourselves.

So we all have or wishes and desires and things we want to be able to do or have.

As for me again, I want at least one decently accurate Vdc meter, what's so extravagant about that  ?!  :-//
How accurate ? I am not a volt nut, and price goes exponentially vs accuracy, so the choice is quite easy to do.
My most accurate handheld is my MX56C at 0.025% so I would want the bench meter to be at least 10 times better than this, otherwise what's the point.

So :

- 7.5 ? Way too expensive don't need it, don't want it, waste of money, waste of a nice instrument.
- 5.5 ? Not good enough, might as well not have a bench meter at all.
- 6.5 ? Old ones are about affordable, accuracy meets my specs. the HPAK one is widely available, 500 Euros tops, does 4W as well, cool VFD, GPIB, fits my bill perfectly.


The problem with buying bottom of the barrel gear is that your brain limits itself to thinking about doing bottom of the barrel things.
If you buy better gear it opens up possibilities and the imagination of the brain, you think big, not small.

Other example : my recently acquired 7603 Tek scope. Diagnosed a faulty can cap in the PSU. There is so much thermal mass involved to replace that cap that my old Weller Magnastat can't replace that cap.... so what are you telling me ? I should not mess around with this scope, sell it and be happy with my 50Watt 50 year old iron, and steer clear of any instrument, any job, that this iron can't handle ? 

It's not how I see things...

Yes, lots of typing this evening, I am feeling better... 8)
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132251 on: December 01, 2022, 06:24:54 pm »
Vince, so glad to see that you are feeling way better today  :-+ The Fluke 8842A is in the ballpark that you are looking for, it is 10 times better that your existing best meter, which is .025% whereas the Fluke is .003% and as Dave said it is equivalent to a 6.5 digit in its readings due to internal accuracies, so what's not to like? There are of course other meters on the market, as you rightly point out, but the think I do like about Fluke meters is that they just work and go on working and retain the accuracy extremely well.
Who let Murphy in?

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Online Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132252 on: December 01, 2022, 07:12:30 pm »
Now Vince is feeling better I can  taunt him.
My best value 6.5 digit 4 wire DMM is my Prema 6030 one previous owner and only cost me £10  >:D It is full width 2U 19" though....

Don't buy a Solatron 7150. While they will display 6.5 Digits, the accuracy is that of a poor 5.5 digit....

Robert.
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132253 on: December 01, 2022, 07:39:15 pm »
From that, and in TEA perspective, 4 wires are very much preverable over 2.

To have some 4wire DMMs in the foregroud does not hurt either.
Peter, you need trim that SDM back closer to 10V that your other meters show.
That feature is in a firmware version a year or so old however be sure to get it right up to date first.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?CateIdss=5

Then go here and use Defpom's online tool and for guidance on how it's done he has a couple of videos linked there too. You can if you want save your calibration files by instrument SN# for instant recall at a later date.
http://www.thedefpom.com/siglent_sdm_calibration.php
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132254 on: December 01, 2022, 07:53:02 pm »
Thanks chaps for your suggestions, but by the time I will be on the market, the situation will probably have evolved and need to be reassessed....

One thing is for sure though : I want a modern TE, so compact and stckable.
THE rack format I like only for Vintage TE. 
Two different categories of TE you see....

 

Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132255 on: December 01, 2022, 08:03:37 pm »
Testing was done with a 60W lamp limiter in series with the mains, to allow any caps to reform and not burn up the transformer if they decide to short.
All seemed to be functioning OK, last two digits are a bit unstable.
With the lamp limiter switch in bypass mode, we have a problem, it goes into max count in the 20000 check position and reads incorrectly, guessing the PSU is not regulating properly.  :-BROKE



David

Thanks for the piccies !  :-+
I know what to expect now.... and I am already very pleased with  what I see : PCB look more modern than my other Rocha DVM I am working on at the moment : brown opaque board with traces and pads that come off and self destruct almost every time,. Also 10% of the solder joints that look fine but aren't because the tinning they are grabbing onto... separated from he bare copper of the pads/tracks, making unreliable contacts with no visual clue whatsoever. I have lost my sanity over these freaking boards !

But not so there... we have fancy modern... Fiber glass boards.

First, you can see the traces through it which is a huge help when trying to reverse-engineer the board to identify components to figure out where it is that you need to stick your scope probe or DMM to...
I also expect / hope that they also improved on the two other issues, with better quality glue and tinning process.

So right there I would expect this meter to be much reliable and easier to fix than my other Rochar DVM.


Geez the rotary switch in that plugin is a mile-long ! Starting to understand why it takes so much force to rotate it...

Glad that your unit basically worked out of the box ! Looks really nice once cleaned up and all lit up showing ... 25,000 counts ! :-+  :(

Hopefully you can fix that  without too much trouble.... keep us posted on that front of course, I am curious !  8)

The boards do look a lot better, no rivet connections for a start, still covered in a lot of varish on the back. Regular gold flashed card edge connectors, instead of the hard to find/costly Hypertac connectors, haven't checked if they used a common pitch for the edge connector.



I completely missed the PSU board is socketed too, didn't look close enough & thought it was hard wired.  :-X
Suspect one of the power rails has failed, as it works with low mains voltage (via 60W lamp), should measure the rails if I get time, would be amazed if they are not the same as the older DVM.

The OTT switch reminds me of another, in the HP 3469A/B DMM, just a little smaller sized, think the Rochar beats it for number of wafers though.



David
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 08:07:22 pm by factory »
 
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Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132256 on: December 01, 2022, 09:20:53 pm »
So I've persuaded work to replace the knackered Pace desolder iron & Antex solder iron, with a combined Metcal thingy. Just had a look at what tips (STTC) RS* stock for the Advanced handpiece solder iron at 357°C, about four chisel tips and another four useless tiny things for Rossmann, will probably ask for the 1.35mm, 1.78mm & 2.5mm chisel tips at 357°C and nothing else.

*I hate RS, they seem to stock very little these days and work won't buy from anywhere else, well expect from Cromwell tools, which I hate even more.

David
 

Offline duckduck

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132257 on: December 01, 2022, 09:48:49 pm »
New acquisition:

Rigol DP832 Programmable DC Power Supply

I bought this on Craigslist for USD100. It is in good nick, just a few little chips in the paint on top. It came with no accessories, but has the latest firmware, 1.16. I promptly installed all of the options using the popular hack:
  • 1mV/1mA Resolution Option
  • RS-232 and LAN interface option
  • Detect and Analyzer option
  • Four channels for trigger in & out option

Haven't tried out any of the options yet, other than high-resolution. I am especially excited to play with the LAN interface. I think that I'll keep my Riden RD6006P as my daily driver power supply since it has a nice interface and runs silently when not under much load. The new-to-me Rigol is going to take the place of the Tektronix PS280.

I am also sick since before our American Thanksgiving holiday last Thursday. Miserable stuff.

More info:

https://www.rigolna.com/products/dc-power-loads/dp800/

EDIT:

I hooked each of the channels up to my electronic load and DMM, and everything works as one would hope. In case I don't post until next year, enjoy your holidays and loved ones.

EDIT EDIT:

oh, yeah! It's supported by sigrok! :) https://sigrok.org/wiki/Rigol_DP800_series

Just tried the Rigol UltraPower software via LAN. It works, and is fairly easy to use, but dear Lord, it is so slow and buggy. I pity the poor bastard that has to use this to get real work done.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2022, 09:50:38 pm by duckduck »
 

Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132258 on: December 01, 2022, 11:35:17 pm »
It's a hobby, we don't need anything. Any piece of equipment we have is not required, we only have it because we decided we needed it to address a "problem" that we created ourselves.

Speak for your self! I for one NEED every single piece of test gear I have! Ant many pieces I don't have (yet....) :-DD
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132259 on: December 01, 2022, 11:52:39 pm »
It's a hobby, we don't need anything. Any piece of equipment we have is not required, we only have it because we decided we needed it to address a "problem" that we created ourselves.

Speak for your self! I for one NEED every single piece of test gear I have! And many pieces I don't have (yet....) :-DD
We can help you with that.  :)
How's that new analyzer going ?
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132260 on: December 02, 2022, 01:30:10 am »
Quite well. I played with the tracking generator and reflection bridge the other day and got some results that seemed meaningful and at least within the expected range, so I'm learning! :D

Been busy lately getting the old PC up and running to calibrate my scopes, but I'll be back onto polishing up the levelled sinewave generators for the same purpose soon, so I'm sure the spectrum analyser will be getting warmed up to help do a few adjustments before long.
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Online tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132261 on: December 02, 2022, 02:31:22 am »
Quite well. I played with the tracking generator and reflection bridge the other day and got some results that seemed meaningful and at least within the expected range, so I'm learning! :D

Been busy lately getting the old PC up and running to calibrate my scopes, but I'll be back onto polishing up the levelled sinewave generators for the same purpose soon, so I'm sure the spectrum analyser will be getting warmed up to help do a few adjustments before long.
Yeah took me a while too become comfortable using one. It weren't too many years back I never dreamed I'd ever own one let alone know how to use one then Siglent released the SSA3kX range and so forced me into this stuff so to at least not look like a complete amateur if customers needed a demo graduating to now just barely better than amateur  :-DD
Just mucked with my SVA today and found another usage gem ....seems I learn something new each time I boot the darn thing.  :horse:

Have you got the Normalize (Save Ref trace) bit all sorted ?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 02:46:27 am by tautech »
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132262 on: December 02, 2022, 09:12:21 am »
So I've persuaded work to replace the knackered Pace desolder iron & Antex solder iron, with a combined Metcal thingy. Just had a look at what tips (STTC) RS* stock for the Advanced handpiece solder iron at 357°C, about four chisel tips and another four useless tiny things for Rossmann, will probably ask for the 1.35mm, 1.78mm & 2.5mm chisel tips at 357°C and nothing else.

Perhaps consider a horseshoe tip for drag soldering, and a very small conical tip for SMD work.

Is it worth getting two different tip temperatures, one for "safety", one for "blitzing groundplanes"?
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Peter_O

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132263 on: December 02, 2022, 09:48:00 am »
From that, and in TEA perspective, 4 wires are very much preverable over 2.

To have some 4wire DMMs in the foregroud does not hurt either.
Peter, you need trim that SDM back closer to 10V that your other meters show.
That feature is in a firmware version a year or so old however be sure to get it right up to date first.
https://int.siglent.com/download/firmwares/?CateIdss=5

Then go here and use Defpom's online tool and for guidance on how it's done he has a couple of videos linked there too. You can if you want save your calibration files by instrument SN# for instant recall at a later date.
http://www.thedefpom.com/siglent_sdm_calibration.php
Thx for the link.
As the deviation is on the last digit, I'm not sure if I have the means to really improve that.
Somehow it feels wrong to calibrate a 1 year old 5.5 digit DVM against >30 year old ones.
And have no standards beyond doubt available.

I'd say: Do not trust the last digit anyway.  :D
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132264 on: December 02, 2022, 10:14:47 am »
Cover it with some black tape. :-DD
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132265 on: December 02, 2022, 10:20:26 am »
OK, so I guess >40kg/UPS, and 5mins at 2.5kW.

The 40kg is sufficient for me to want to avoid it - but you may be able to halve that weight by moving the battery and crate separately.

Heh, I'd be happy to send you one in pieces but otherwise these are pretty much new in box. If I take off even the plastic peel the value tanks ;-)

**EDIT**: in other news, not happy. Have a few Fluke 87 EX's. Turns out they all have hairline fractures in the case. Doesn't matter much functionally, but it renders them useless for EX work.

Offline McBryce

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132266 on: December 02, 2022, 12:04:16 pm »
Santa came early  :) More when I've had a chance to play with it.

McBryce.

30 Years making cars more difficult to repair.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132267 on: December 02, 2022, 03:26:13 pm »
OK, so I guess >40kg/UPS, and 5mins at 2.5kW.

The 40kg is sufficient for me to want to avoid it - but you may be able to halve that weight by moving the battery and crate separately.

Heh, I'd be happy to send you one in pieces but otherwise these are pretty much new in box. If I take off even the plastic peel the value tanks ;-)

I already have two 2.7kW APC UPSs, and I'm awaiting the arrival of a set of batteries. I paid £25 for one and £40 for the other :) The 0.625kWh deep discharge batteries are £133

My primary application will to be to keep gas fired central heating running during power cuts[1], and secondarily to keep freezers cold. The latter are 100W when compressing, but the startup transient can be up to 1.2W for up to 1s. Keeping a TV and router going are a "wouldn't it be nice if".

[1] a blocking anticyclone over the UK => cold and no wind. If gas supply gets too tight, planned power cuts will occur. As I type, 53% of our electricity comes from gas. The domestic gas supplies won't be interrupted, since restoring them requires that each and every house is visited.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132268 on: December 02, 2022, 05:32:36 pm »
So I've persuaded work to replace the knackered Pace desolder iron & Antex solder iron, with a combined Metcal thingy. Just had a look at what tips (STTC) RS* stock for the Advanced handpiece solder iron at 357°C, about four chisel tips and another four useless tiny things for Rossmann, will probably ask for the 1.35mm, 1.78mm & 2.5mm chisel tips at 357°C and nothing else.

Perhaps consider a horseshoe tip for drag soldering, and a very small conical tip for SMD work.

Is it worth getting two different tip temperatures, one for "safety", one for "blitzing groundplanes"?

The engineer printed only printed out two pages of STTC tips (a lot of which RS don't stock), these didn't include any of the hoof tips for drag soldering, those and the conical would be very useful if they decided to bring in new work, currently we only work on old through hole stuff, with lead solder. I do have some hoof & conical tips for my own Pace iron, bought a few years ago when prices were much lower of ePay.

As we use lead solder, I went with the 357°C tips, the engineer is going to get a few sizes of Chisel tips ordered, the only things we struggle with are the alu heatsinks fitted to some power transistors.

I mentioned we should probably get at least one higher temperature tip as well, for the occasional repair of modern stuff that other departments have broken abused.  >:D I did have a quick search of this thread and there were comments of one tip being used for everything.  :o

Still need to look at the desolder tips now I've confirmed which iron was ordered (MX-DS1), wonder how long it will take for them to install an air line to the lab.  :-DD
RS only stock three STDC tips  |O, will see if they can use that other evil company I mentioned last night, to get some others from Farnell or Mouser.

David
 

Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132269 on: December 02, 2022, 05:41:18 pm »

Thx for the link.
As the deviation is on the last digit, I'm not sure if I have the means to really improve that.
Somehow it feels wrong to calibrate a 1 year old 5.5 digit DVM against >30 year old ones.
And have no standards beyond doubt available.

I'd say: Do not trust the last digit anyway.  :D
Cover it with some black tape. :-DD

Couple of strips of this across the front should do the trick >:D and you can use the much nicer 30 year old DMM.  ;)



David
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 05:42:52 pm by factory »
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132270 on: December 02, 2022, 06:35:16 pm »
So I've persuaded work to replace the knackered Pace desolder iron & Antex solder iron, with a combined Metcal thingy. Just had a look at what tips (STTC) RS* stock for the Advanced handpiece solder iron at 357°C, about four chisel tips and another four useless tiny things for Rossmann, will probably ask for the 1.35mm, 1.78mm & 2.5mm chisel tips at 357°C and nothing else.

Perhaps consider a horseshoe tip for drag soldering, and a very small conical tip for SMD work.

Is it worth getting two different tip temperatures, one for "safety", one for "blitzing groundplanes"?

The engineer printed only printed out two pages of STTC tips (a lot of which RS don't stock), these didn't include any of the hoof tips for drag soldering, those and the conical would be very useful if they decided to bring in new work, currently we only work on old through hole stuff, with lead solder. I do have some hoof & conical tips for my own Pace iron, bought a few years ago when prices were much lower of ePay.

As we use lead solder, I went with the 357°C tips, the engineer is going to get a few sizes of Chisel tips ordered, the only things we struggle with are the alu heatsinks fitted to some power transistors.

I mentioned we should probably get at least one higher temperature tip as well, for the occasional repair of modern stuff that other departments have broken abused.  >:D I did have a quick search of this thread and there were comments of one tip being used for everything.  :o

Still need to look at the desolder tips now I've confirmed which iron was ordered (MX-DS1), wonder how long it will take for them to install an air line to the lab.  :-DD
RS only stock three STDC tips  |O, will see if they can use that other evil company I mentioned last night, to get some others from Farnell or Mouser.

I use the cheaper Thermaltronics s60/s75 equivalents of SSC tips, and haven't found any problem.

Can't comment on STTC tips.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline doktor pyta

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132271 on: December 02, 2022, 06:36:48 pm »
Rochar / Schlumberger in today's ebay.fr



https://www.ebay.fr/itm/394355843063
 
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Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132272 on: December 02, 2022, 07:59:07 pm »
I use the cheaper Thermaltronics s60/s75 equivalents of SSC tips, and haven't found any problem.

Can't comment on STTC tips.

It's all new to me as well, not used a cartridge based iron before, used to the old Weller TCP, Pace & the slightly weedy Antex 25W iron.
This is what we asked for: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/soldering-stations/1682653
My reason for choosing that one, is the desoldering station has no vacuum pump, as I've now killed two vac pump Pace motors and currently using the pump assembly from an old Weller in the Pace.  :-DD Plus fed up with hard to obtain front seals for the Pace desolder iron, the newer type don't last long due to the new tip design.  :-- The engineer saw the "no calibration required" in the Metcal brochure and thought that would please them too.

The reason for them suddenly showing an interest in the lab is down to audits, apparently soldering is now a process than requires filling in paperwork every day.
They are also ordering a thermocouple unit, for the checking of tip temperature for that paperwork, which probably isn't needed as I found an offcut of the thermocouple wire does measure fine: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/thermocouple-extension-wire/2363836 Probably a lot cheaper as it can be used with the existing temperature meters.

Now if they could just replace the crappy 20+ year old Fluke 123 jokemeter & 85 DMM with something better.  ::)

David
« Last Edit: December 02, 2022, 08:01:15 pm by factory »
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132273 on: December 02, 2022, 08:10:06 pm »
Rochar / Schlumberger in today's ebay.fr

(Attachment Link)

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/394355843063

Geez, 150 starting price....and I got mine for 10 Euros on Leboncoin ?! :o

Once again Ebay is the place to rip people off.... so that's where I shall advertise my QUAD amps once they are ready to sell !

But, it's  useful to know that Schlumberger rebranded that Rochar meter under the VB1466 model type....
because NOW we can find a manual for it !!  :D

1) Electropuce clearly sells it in their manuals section :

https://electropuces.pagesperso-orange.fr/notices.htm

2) This French forum has it too :

https://archives.radiofil.org/schematheque/schlumberger-vb-1466,m39213.html

Not available for an easy download though. You have to pay 7 Euros shipping and they will send it to you, but of course you need to return it in good condition, and of course you are most likely required to be a long time member of theirs, with a 50 year old wild untrimmed 2 foot long beard.... I am sure.

So the best option is to fork out some cash at Electropuce to actually buy the thing...think I will contact the guy see how many kidneys he wants for it.
Also, this won't be any help with the plugin of course... we still need manuals for these as well.... but the mainframe manual is the most needed of course...

« Last Edit: December 03, 2022, 10:48:10 am by Vince »
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #132274 on: December 02, 2022, 08:20:34 pm »





The boards do look a lot better, no rivet connections for a start, still covered in a lot of varish on the back. Regular gold flashed card edge connectors, instead of the hard to find/costly Hypertac connectors, haven't checked if they used a common pitch for the edge connector.

Oh yeah, no rivets any more either ?!  :-+
And how come I failed to spot the cool card edge connector which will save us so much misery to make an extender card over the FRB Hypertac connectors ! :scared:

Oh I am liking this meter a lot already !!!  :D

Something I noticed. We have the same plugin, but yours has two fuse holders.... mine has none !.... so I got curious, pulled the plugin out of the mainframe and... yes I do have thee two fuse holders, but hiding inside, mounted on the PCB.
The other thing that troubles me is that the ammeter can go p to 2A but the fuse is rated at 10A ?! :wtf:


Suspect one of the power rails has failed, as it works with low mains voltage (via 60W lamp), should measure the rails if I get time, would be amazed if they are not the same as the older DVM.
David

Oh good ! So that means the damage was not irreversible, phew ! No harm done then... it will be soon back on its feet  8)
 
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