Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 20864310 times)

0 Members and 36 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2890
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133050 on: February 17, 2023, 09:57:14 am »
You are not helping my finances... I will have to pass. Looks like a nice versatile bit of kit though.

I might fancy a current clamp some day but no need for it presently, so not in the market right now. When I am, I know who to ask for advice  ;)

"Box 14"  you said ?!  So that means all your million boxes are numbered and every item in them is listed in a spreadsheet ? Like my component inventory ?!
So it's not a clusterfuck then.... it's rather a surprisingly well organized mountain of stuff...

No spreadsheet but each bin has a "type" of stuff a number and a photographic record...
And my memory is pretty good. It's 7 stacks deep...
 
The following users thanked this post: Vince, Specmaster, wolfy007, m k, timeandfrequency

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2705
  • Country: fi
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133051 on: February 17, 2023, 10:35:16 am »
The software lacks any form of GPIB card config settings as it just assumes you will use the Tek supplied or recommended GPIB card.

Do you have a list?

I found an old CEC ISA card with external ROM, so it can be emulated.

Yeah, here's the list of all supported GPIB cards as per the Tek TDS Scope service manuals:

- National Instruments GPIB-PCII/IIA ISA GPIB card



That's it....  :-DD  |O

I think I have another one of those, somewhere...

Robert.

Yes you do ! Or... you DID.... you sold it to me a few months ago! Sorry Terra !  ;D

Well... unless Robert has a whole collection of them...like his current clamps...

No this is another one. Just checked and it's a NI AT GPIB TNT so 16 bit. Not sure it will work. I might have anther one but it is well buried in bin 14 at the back of the storage unit......

Robert

My guess is that it is not working and can't be forked.
Can't get files from NI so can't check.
(naggin' ftp password)

BTW,
my order of prototype paper PCBs using single side copper PCB material is on its way.
Shipped 15-Feb and arriving 3-May.

OT,
one must wonder how storing happened.
Unit has no number but it's clearly not a garage.
Is the area exclusive or shared.
Is attic filled and if so then before or after.
Is garage filled and is storage an addendum or a base.
Sooo many unknowns.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2890
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133052 on: February 17, 2023, 11:59:12 am »
Storage is 1/2 a 20ft ISO container (conex).
The Attic is full
The garage is being re-organised
The garage next door has been rented for "tempary" storage whle re-organising  :scared:
 
The following users thanked this post: Vince, Specmaster, ch_scr, Zoli, duckduck, m k

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2705
  • Country: fi
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133053 on: February 17, 2023, 05:59:43 pm »
I assume that basement is different than garage.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2890
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133054 on: February 17, 2023, 07:36:37 pm »
No basement or cellar.
Not common in this part of the country due to high water table and deep bedrock overlaid with clay
 

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2705
  • Country: fi
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133055 on: February 17, 2023, 09:41:58 pm »
I was pretty sure it was you who had to evacuate some stuff and save the structure of the floor.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2890
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133056 on: February 17, 2023, 09:46:25 pm »
No, not me. My floor is OK
 

Offline extremgear

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 22
  • Country: fr
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133057 on: February 18, 2023, 09:32:49 am »
Hello,
Repair/restoration of my hp 3457A is finished .
The thing work pretty well .
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/restorationrepair-of-my-hp-3457a/

 
The following users thanked this post: BU508A, wolfy007, ch_scr, TERRA Operative, duckduck, Atomillo

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133058 on: February 18, 2023, 10:25:34 am »
Well fellows, I was NOT joking when saying that someone should pack the Tek (and others) GPIB software and have it reversed and reproduced properly using Web Serial API (sadly, only for Chrome derivatives, because Mozilla is busy with more woke shite).
I give it a try, and after a few road bumps, like activating ONLY if the page is served via a secure connection with a recognized certificate, it started to work surprisingly well.
Well, I know that most will rather sunk their money and effort budged in "original and supported NI" 8-bit ISA cards and, obsolete, but expensive PC, that will need fiddling with configuration jumpers and HIMEM.SYS, instead of paying a pittance to have it reversed and having used from every machine know to man via cheap GPIB adapter like AR488 (thanks again @artag & @WaveyDipole for the wonderful project).
Speaking of which, I do have a couple of buffered AR488 and a couple of un-buffred ones, that you either as kit or soldered, mostly at cost, sometimes I may put them on on B/S/W topic.

Either than that, my little Nanoton++ project is making progress and I have to finally take the bull by the horns and learn a bit of Kicad  :scared:

To keep it on-topic what do you say about these:
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ekb500-multi-function-keyboard-controller/2359625082-168-7975



Should I get myself one, does anybody else want one (to get them all for discount), they seem to be pretty capable little devices ?

Also the Baby LeCroy still wants a home:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/oszilloskop-lecroy-literunner-lp142/2220880188-168-9279



Cheers,
DC1MC








 
The following users thanked this post: Vince, ch_scr, AVGresponding, duckduck

Online TERRA Operative

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3242
  • Country: jp
  • Voider of warranties
    • Near Far Media Youtube
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133059 on: February 18, 2023, 11:47:49 am »
Well fellows, I was NOT joking when saying that someone should pack the Tek (and others) GPIB software and have it reversed and reproduced properly using Web Serial API (sadly, only for Chrome derivatives, because Mozilla is busy with more woke shite).
I give it a try, and after a few road bumps, like activating ONLY if the page is served via a secure connection with a recognized certificate, it started to work surprisingly well.
Well, I know that most will rather sunk their money and effort budged in "original and supported NI" 8-bit ISA cards and, obsolete, but expensive PC, that will need fiddling with configuration jumpers and HIMEM.SYS, instead of paying a pittance to have it reversed and having used from every machine know to man via cheap GPIB adapter like AR488 (thanks again @artag & @WaveyDipole for the wonderful project).
Speaking of which, I do have a couple of buffered AR488 and a couple of un-buffred ones, that you either as kit or soldered, mostly at cost, sometimes I may put them on on B/S/W topic.

Yes please!  ;D

I can't help much with the software and programming side of things (I program with a soldering iron. :P ) but I gave a good selection of TDS 600 and 700 series scopes, plus the required gear to complete the adjustments, so I can beta test and help with figuring out what is needed to make it work and UX stuff etc. :)

I did manage to somewhat decompile the TDS700D FAS using 'IDA Pro Free', and bumbled through the process to export it to a HTML file so I could scan through it to find the test equipment that appears to be supported via GPIB.

A bunch of the listed gear doesn't meet the specs required to calibrate the TDS scopes, so I think there may be a bit of reused code, which stands to reason. Why reinvent the wheel for each scope when you have code that works?
If this is the case, it would mean that it should be easier to support more scopes as the duplicated code only needs to be replicated once.

It would be fantastic if USB-GPIB adapters could be supported (I have the Keysight one) and it can be run in Win 10 with nice verbose diagnostic and error reporting if anything goes wrong.
Having the possibility for semi-auto and auto adjustment as per the original would make things much easier too.

If the GPIB devices used for auto/semi-auto adjustment could be defined with plug-in files, that would make adding newer equipment and other equipment that is readily available much simpler too.

Code: [Select]
These instruments listed below appear to be compatible with the Tek TDS scope Field Adjustment Software.
The TDS700D .exe file was decompiled to discover this list, and other FAS packages haven't been checked, but the list should be similar.

* Possible allowable categories for entries in 'g-config' file
Dc Dm Osc Sc Cg Pm Sa Sm Atten Cal Fg Ps Sg Rt


* Categories with listed instruments (items without a description are currently unknown)

-Oa
oa5002 : Tek OA5002 1100 to 1600nm singlemode fiber optic attentuator TM5000
oa5012 : Tek OA5012 750 to 1600nm 50um multimode fiber optic attentuator TM5000
oa5022 : Tek OA5022 750 to 1600nm 62.5um multimode fiber optic attentuator TM5000

-Atten (Attenuator)
Tm1095 : Tek 067-1095-99 attenuator TM5000
At5010 : Tek AT5010 50ohm 18GHz programmable attentuator TM5000
At3201t : API/Weinshel 50ohm 3GHz attenuator (With programmable controller)

-Cg (Calibration Generator)
cg5001 : Tek CG5001 Programmable calibration generator TM5000
cg5010 : Tek CG5010 Programmable calibration generator TM5000
cg5011 : Tek CG5011 Programmable calibration generator TM5000

-Dc (Digital Counter)
dc5010 : Tek DC5010 350MHz programmable frequency counter TM5000
dc2465
hp53131a : HP 53131a 225MHz Universal Frequency Counter/Timer

-Pg (Pulse Gen)
wt9500 : WaveTek/Fluke 9500 calibrator

-Ps (Power Supply)
dp8200 : Data Precision 8200 DC volt/current standard
dw4800
fl5100b : Fluke 5100B calibrator
fl5700a : Fluke 5700A multifunction calibrator
ps5004 : Programmable precision DC power supply TM5000
ps5010 : Tek Programmable triple DC power supply TM5000
wt9100f : WaveTek/Fluke 9100 calibrator
wt9100r : WaveTek/Fluke 9100 calibrator
wt9500 : WaveTek/Fluke 9500 calibrator

-Rt
gp700 : Dicon fiber optic switch
hp3488a : HP Switch control unit
rd1200
rd1264
si5020 : Tek DC - 18 GHz microwave switcher TM5000
tsi8150 : Tek Relay driver card mainframe
wt9500 : WaveTek/Fluke 9500 calibrator
vx5020

-Sg (Sinewave Generator)
aps1
aps1b
sp5030
fg5010 : Tek 20MHz signal generator TM5000
fl606 : Fluke 105GHz RF Generator (fluke 6060?)
fl5200a : Fluke programmable AC Calibrator
hp8642a : HP 100kHz to 1050MHz signal generator
hp8656a : HP 100kHz to 990MHz synthesized signal generator
hpesg : HP ESG-series analog RF signal generator
mi2024 : Marconi 2024 9kHz to 2.4GHz synthesized signal generator
sg503 : Tek Leveled sine wave generator TM500 (No GPIB control)
sg504 : Tek Leveled sine wave generator TM500 (No GPIB control)
sg5010 : Tek audio signal generator TM5000
sg5030 : Tek Leveled sine wave generator TM5000
smt03 : Rohde & Schwarz 5kHz to 3GHz RF generator
wt6645b40 : Wiltron 10Mhz to 18GHz 6645 synthesized signal generator
wt6722a20 : Wiltron 10MHz to 12.4GHz 6722 synthesized signal generator
wt6747a20 : Wiltron 10Mhz to 18GHz 6747 synthesized signal generator
wt6759b10 : Wiltron 10Mhz to 26.5GHz 6759 synthesized signal generator
wt6769b2u : Wiltron 10Mhz to 40GHz 6769 synthesized signal generator
wt9100r : WaveTek/Fluke 9100 calibrator
wt9500 : WaveTek/Fluke 9500 calibrator

-Dm (Digital Multimeter)
dm2000
dm2465
dm5010 : Tek 4.5 digit multimeter TM5000
dm5110 : Tek 4.5 digit multimeter TM5000
dm5120 : Tek 6.5 digit multimeter TM5000
fl8840a : Fluke 8840A 5.5 digit multimeter
fl8842a : Fluke 8842A 5.5 digit multimeter
hp3456a : HP 3456a 6.5 digit multimeter
hp3457a : HP 3457a 7.5 digit multimeter
hp3478a : HP 3457a 5.5 digit multimeter

-Fg (Function Generator)
fg5010 : Tek 20MHz signal generator TM5000
hp3325a : HP 20MHz function generator
hp8116a : HP 50MHz 8116A pulse/function generator
wt9100r : WaveTek/Fluke 9100 calibrator
wt9500 : WaveTek/Fluke 9500 calibrator

----------

Additional instruments mentioned in .exe, maybe only for on-production line diagnostics and troubleshooting or maybe not implemented???

Sa
hp3585a
hp6627a

Sc
scalcf1

Pm
ma6960
hu47770h
hp436a
hp437b
nrvs
hp60500

Sw.Sm.Osc
osc2465
mi5010



Maybe we should start a new thread for this and see what we can figure out?

[EDIT]

The current list of TDS scopes I have:

TDS210
TDS220
TDS620B
TDS644A
TDS680B
TDS714L
TDS754D (x2)
TDS784C
TDS784D
TDS794D
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 12:04:55 pm by TERRA Operative »
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
The following users thanked this post: DC1MC, duckduck

Offline AVGresponding

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4957
  • Country: england
  • Exploring Rabbit Holes Since The 1970s
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133060 on: February 18, 2023, 12:04:32 pm »
Well fellows, I was NOT joking when saying that someone should pack the Tek (and others) GPIB software and have it reversed and reproduced properly using Web Serial API (sadly, only for Chrome derivatives, because Mozilla is busy with more woke shite).
I give it a try, and after a few road bumps, like activating ONLY if the page is served via a secure connection with a recognized certificate, it started to work surprisingly well.
Well, I know that most will rather sunk their money and effort budged in "original and supported NI" 8-bit ISA cards and, obsolete, but expensive PC, that will need fiddling with configuration jumpers and HIMEM.SYS, instead of paying a pittance to have it reversed and having used from every machine know to man via cheap GPIB adapter like AR488 (thanks again @artag & @WaveyDipole for the wonderful project).
Speaking of which, I do have a couple of buffered AR488 and a couple of un-buffred ones, that you either as kit or soldered, mostly at cost, sometimes I may put them on on B/S/W topic.

Either than that, my little Nanoton++ project is making progress and I have to finally take the bull by the horns and learn a bit of Kicad  :scared:

Agreed, proprietary GPIB sw can all get in the fecking sea.

I've only recently started using KiCad, but found it quite easy and intuitive.




To keep it on-topic what do you say about these:
https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/ekb500-multi-function-keyboard-controller/2359625082-168-7975



Should I get myself one, does anybody else want one (to get them all for discount), they seem to be pretty capable little devices ?

What would you use it for, other than as a CCTV camera controller?



Also the Baby LeCroy still wants a home:

https://www.ebay-kleinanzeigen.de/s-anzeige/oszilloskop-lecroy-literunner-lp142/2220880188-168-9279



Cheers,
DC1MC

Awww, cute! Baby scope doo doo do-doo, baby scope...

nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 
The following users thanked this post: DC1MC

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133061 on: February 18, 2023, 12:09:12 pm »
@TERRA I think you're one of the the best persons to lead this project, you have both the infrastructure to test the original versions and you could very easily "program" an AR488 (or more) to test the new versions.
IMHO, I don't think that the old DOS programs actually rely on "magic" register poking of the GPIB controller so much, I the end I strongly believe that a GPIB controller like AR488 or the Xyphro, with an open source FW that can be improved if something is missing should suffice.
I also believe that all those calibration or other servicing operations are nothing special but standard GPIB commands and expecting results, rarely I believe extraordinary precise timings are needed. I believe that all the obfuscation and surounding crap are because they want to protect the calibration procedures and algorithms, avoid devices being mis-calibrated or even bricked, and, most important of all, protect the revenue stream brought by calibration services.
We could consider ourselfs lucky that for the old TE are some device servicing and calibrating programs available outside the manufacturers service center. I'm pretty sure that they will not repeat this "mistake" anymore, everything will be done via server based tool with passwords, dongles and encryption up to the wazoo ;).

So yeah, the bally is in your court to collate and prioritize the needed programs, other interested forum members may also wnat to contribute.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133062 on: February 18, 2023, 12:18:05 pm »
@AVGresponding: what would I used for that controller, well of course for a CCTV camera... attached to tracked robot drone with laser to hunt the bloody limax snails that will start soon to appear in my garden  :-DD I always wanted such a little robot to lazer the green stinky bugs and other garden nuisances, maybe I'll get to build it sometime :).
Regarding the GPIB software I think we could start at least sorting it and see what is worth reversing and modernizing. You gentlemen have gobs and gobs of TE that may benefit from this project.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 
The following users thanked this post: AVGresponding

Online TERRA Operative

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3242
  • Country: jp
  • Voider of warranties
    • Near Far Media Youtube
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133063 on: February 18, 2023, 12:27:17 pm »
Yeah, if we were to sniff the GPIB commands and data during an adjustment procedure, it would tell us much.
When I ran through the adjustment procedure on my TDS714L, nothing critical seemed to happen between the scope and PC timing wise.
It appears the process is somewhat as follows: Test signal as applied to the scope, hit enter key, PC tells scope to take measurements, the PC then calculates the required cal offsets from that data and loads them back into the scope's EEPROM.

It is apparent that there is a bunch of calculations done on the PC, as Tek recommended a 486DX for the extra FPU to make the cal process faster, so those calculations will need to be discovered and replicated.

I think it would be perfect to have an executable file to run that will integrate all the required calculations and adjustment procedures, then it could hook into whatever GPIB adapter is in use in whatever the usual method is.
Add a file that contains the data for whatever GPIB controlled equipment you want to use to automate the process (maybe there could be a wizard in the program itself so you can enter the required parameters and it will generate the required config file) and finally a way to export a report once the adjustment is done to enable a paper record if needed.

Maybe Python could be used, then compiled for whatever platform the user needs?
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
The following users thanked this post: DC1MC

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133064 on: February 18, 2023, 12:47:39 pm »
Yeah, if we were to sniff the GPIB commands and data during an adjustment procedure, it would tell us much.
When I ran through the adjustment procedure on my TDS714L, nothing critical seemed to happen between the scope and PC timing wise.
It appears the process is somewhat as follows: Test signal as applied to the scope, hit enter key, PC tells scope to take measurements, the PC then calculates the required cal offsets from that data and loads them back into the scope's EEPROM.

It is apparent that there is a bunch of calculations done on the PC, as Tek recommended a 486DX for the extra FPU to make the cal process faster, so those calculations will need to be discovered and replicated.

I think it would be perfect to have an executable file to run that will integrate all the required calculations and adjustment procedures, then it could hook into whatever GPIB adapter is in use in whatever the usual method is.
Add a file that contains the data for whatever GPIB controlled equipment you want to use to automate the process (maybe there could be a wizard in the program itself so you can enter the required parameters and it will generate the required config file) and finally a way to export a report once the adjustment is done to enable a paper record if needed.

Maybe Python could be used, then compiled for whatever platform the user needs?

What Python, this is so 2015  :-DD, now we use Javascript in browser, attached is the result of my experiment with an AR488 and WebSerial API. there are shtload of frameworks to do the most beautiful layouts and control panels for your GPIB enabled TE  ;D.
Also on Ubuntu I have pressed "install App" and really an "app" was installed, that is a Chrome(ium) window shows up without URL and decorations, like a real terminal, pretty cool.
Also on Linux a normal user has to be member of the dialout group, or access to the serial port is restricted, but this is system wide. It could be solved without group membership via clever udev rules.

And I don't think there's platform where Chrome and derivatives does not run, and there is even a chance that Mozilla will pull its head from the wokehole and implement it as well.


 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 
The following users thanked this post: Vince, duckduck

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133065 on: February 18, 2023, 12:55:28 pm »
@TERRA and Universe:

Yes please start a special thread for preserving the GPIB programs and making them future proof. Also let us know.
 

Offline timeandfrequency

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 283
  • Country: fr
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133066 on: February 18, 2023, 01:37:10 pm »
[...]
IMHO, I don't think that the old DOS programs actually rely on "magic" register poking of the GPIB controller so much, I the end I strongly believe that a GPIB controller like AR488 or the Xyphro, with an open source FW that can be improved if something is missing should suffice.
I also believe that all those calibration or other servicing operations are nothing special but standard GPIB commands and expecting results, rarely I believe extraordinary precise timings are needed. I believe that all the obfuscation and surounding crap are because they want to protect the calibration procedures and algorithms, avoid devices being mis-calibrated or even bricked, and, most important of all, protect the revenue stream brought by calibration services.
[...]
Hi DC1MC,

Vintage cal software hosted on DOS, Win 3.11 (or even earlyer versions 3.01 , 2.x) or Windows 95 sometimes bypassed the BIOS and the GPIB card drivers to write directly into the registers of the GPIB chip.
I've no skills in that realm but a grey beard told me about that once upon a time.

I guess that for some TE, the calibration process also used some undocumented GPIB commands (that are not listed in the 'GPIB Programming Manual' of the relevant TE) to control the unit and update the cal parameters.

I've no idea how far this can go, but I also agree with @TERRA Operative when he says that duplicating the cal software might need to clone some advanced matrix calculation that needs a powerful language (Python, R, Matlab,...) for implementation.


As other members underscored above, for some weird situations, a GPIB bus sniffer might also be required to understand what the cal software is actually cobbling.
NI seems not to have any feature to analyse an independent GPIB bus :
https://forums.ni.com/t5/LabVIEW/gpib-sniffer/td-p/2564175
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 01:47:56 pm by timeandfrequency »
 
The following users thanked this post: DC1MC, duckduck

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2890
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133067 on: February 18, 2023, 03:52:53 pm »
Huh. Didn't see that coming.

Working on a HP 334A. Needed a sig gen and since that recently acquired Sigilent was around I grabbed that. Seems to work fine and yes its updated. Actually, the rotary is shit and some of the buttons have problems but I won't hold that against them as it has been with a smoker for quite some time.

What I DO hold against it is what happens next. Starting out with the simplest measurement, just use it as voltmeter. So, the 334A reads well over a volt when I feed it a 1V signal. So, I figure, well, old gear. Unfortunate, but it's somewhat expected it would drift over time.

Just for fun and giggles I figured to double check.



@Ice-Tea
I came across the attached. Seems that the cracks around the display on the 87V Ex don't affect the ATEX rating  :-DMM
The ones you bought from Ramco may still be saleable.


Robert.
 
The following users thanked this post: duckduck

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133068 on: February 18, 2023, 06:35:36 pm »
[...]
IMHO, I don't think that the old DOS programs actually rely on "magic" register poking of the GPIB controller so much, I the end I strongly believe that a GPIB controller like AR488 or the Xyphro, with an open source FW that can be improved if something is missing should suffice.
I also believe that all those calibration or other servicing operations are nothing special but standard GPIB commands and expecting results, rarely I believe extraordinary precise timings are needed. I believe that all the obfuscation and surounding crap are because they want to protect the calibration procedures and algorithms, avoid devices being mis-calibrated or even bricked, and, most important of all, protect the revenue stream brought by calibration services.
[...]
Hi DC1MC,

Vintage cal software hosted on DOS, Win 3.11 (or even earlyer versions 3.01 , 2.x) or Windows 95 sometimes bypassed the BIOS and the GPIB card drivers to write directly into the registers of the GPIB chip.
I've no skills in that realm but a grey beard told me about that once upon a time.

I guess that for some TE, the calibration process also used some undocumented GPIB commands (that are not listed in the 'GPIB Programming Manual' of the relevant TE) to control the unit and update the cal parameters.

I've no idea how far this can go, but I also agree with @TERRA Operative when he says that duplicating the cal software might need to clone some advanced matrix calculation that needs a powerful language (Python, R, Matlab,...) for implementation.


As other members underscored above, for some weird situations, a GPIB bus sniffer might also be required to understand what the cal software is actually cobbling.
NI seems not to have any feature to analyse an independent GPIB bus :
https://forums.ni.com/t5/LabVIEW/gpib-sniffer/td-p/2564175

Poking at the controller registers does not a complex problem program make and whatever matrix multiplication and linear interpolation calculations those programs make are not an issue for modern Java/ECMA script is used in the browsers nowadays.

Unknown (undocumented) GPIB commands are indeed an issue and I strongly believe that there will be plenty of them, "we just can disclose our proprietary shite to unwashed masses...". this can be fished out via either reversing and/or via GPIB sniffing. We ABSOLUTELY don't need NI crappy expensive software stack or anything else expensive and hard to install or requiring specialized hw, for the people that want to go more via hardware sniffing route I want to remind you of an often overlooked side project of the AR488, the GPIB (very)low-cost sniffing board that can make a full log of the data exchange. And these I can absolutely provide for the interested parties in EU (I was thinking to produce one for me and lot of boards will remain), also I can contribute to the software development.

GPIB Sniffer board contributed by ARTAG and improved by  Jay_Diddy_B, as well as AND supported by Sigrock !!!
https://github.com/artgodwin/Sigrok-sniffer

Also if someone in DE order in the next days, please let me know !!!


Unfortunately we are FAR AWAY from these issues, we don't have a specialized thread (I feel grumbling of "what has this to due with the TEA..." starting in one, two...), we don't have an importance sorted list of softtware confirmed working and worth reversing and reproducing and above all, we don't have a plan with goals.  So until then is just some nice idea that without involvement it will wither and die  :scared:.

So, sorry for the  :blah: :blah: :blah:, if some one that is a stakeholder and leader material will take the lead, I will not pollute this thread animore.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
« Last Edit: February 18, 2023, 06:49:12 pm by DC1MC »
 
The following users thanked this post: duckduck

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2705
  • Country: fi
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133069 on: February 18, 2023, 06:56:21 pm »
Polluting a bit.

8bit CEC board with NEC chip has 15 jumps(functions) starting from offset 0 and 3 starting from offset 0xc8.

1st function is clearly init, 7th is starting similarly.
Base is hard coded to 0x2b8.

Code: [Select]
out base+5 2
out base+5 0
out base+4 0x31
out base+5 0x28 0010 1000
out base+5 0x80 1000 0000
out base+5 0xa0 1010 0000
out base+5 0xc0 1100 0000
out base+6 0x15
out base+6 0xe0
out base+1 0
out base+2 0x30
out base+3 0
out base+5 0x78 0111 1000
out base+6 [DS:[SS:SP+8]] and 0x1f
if word [DS:[SS:SP+6]] is 0
 out base+5 0x1e 0001 1110
 wait
 out base+5 0x16 0001 0110
if word [DS:[SS:SP+6]] is 1
 out base+5 0x11 0001 0001

Code: [Select]
       c800:01a6 8b 5e 08        MOV        BX,word ptr [BP + 0x8]
       c800:01a9 8b 07           MOV        AX,word ptr [BX]
       c800:01ab 24 1f           AND        AL,0x1f

Some text in ROM.
(length, text, number)

CMD, assuming it's command, can obviously include what ever.

Code: [Select]
       c800:03cb 06 00           dw         6h
       c800:03cd 4c 49 53        ds         "LISTEN"
                 54 45 4e
       c800:03d3 01              db         1h
       c800:03d4 04 00           dw         4h
       c800:03d6 54 41 4c 4b     ds         "TALK"
       c800:03da 02              db         2h
       c800:03db 04 00           dw         4h
       c800:03dd 44 41 54 41     ds         "DATA"
       c800:03e1 08              db         8h
       c800:03e2 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:03e4 55 4e 4c        ds         "UNL"
       c800:03e7 03              db         3h
       c800:03e8 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:03ea 55 4e 54        ds         "UNT"
       c800:03ed 04              db         4h
       c800:03ee 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:03f0 45 4e 44        ds         "END"
       c800:03f3 05              db         5h
       c800:03f4 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:03f6 47 45 54        ds         "GET"
       c800:03f9 07              db         7h
       c800:03fa 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:03fc 44 43 4c        ds         "DCL"
       c800:03ff 09              db         9h
       c800:0400 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0402 47 54 4c        ds         "GTL"
       c800:0405 0a              db         Ah
       c800:0406 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0408 50 50 43        ds         "PPC"
       c800:040b 0b              db         Bh
       c800:040c 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:040e 50 50 44        ds         "PPD"
       c800:0411 0c              db         Ch
       c800:0412 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0414 50 50 45        ds         "PPE"
       c800:0417 0d              db         Dh
       c800:0418 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:041a 50 50 55        ds         "PPU"
       c800:041d 0e              db         Eh
       c800:041e 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0420 52 45 4e        ds         "REN"
       c800:0423 0f              db         Fh
       c800:0424 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0426 53 44 43        ds         "SDC"
       c800:0429 10              db         10h
       c800:042a 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:042c 53 50 44        ds         "SPD"
       c800:042f 11              db         11h
       c800:0430 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0432 53 50 45        ds         "SPE"
       c800:0435 12              db         12h
       c800:0436 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0438 54 43 54        ds         "TCT"
       c800:043b 13              db         13h
       c800:043c 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:043e 4d 4c 41        ds         "MLA"
       c800:0441 14              db         14h
       c800:0442 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0444 4d 54 41        ds         "MTA"
       c800:0447 15              db         15h
       c800:0448 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:044a 49 46 43        ds         "IFC"
       c800:044d 06              db         6h
       c800:044e 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0450 43 4d 44        ds         "CMD"
       c800:0453 16              db         16h
       c800:0454 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0456 4c 4c 4f        ds         "LLO"
       c800:0459 17              db         17h
       c800:045a 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:045c 53 45 43        ds         "SEC"
       c800:045f 19              db         19h
       c800:0460 03 00           dw         3h
       c800:0462 45 4f 49        ds         "EOI"
       c800:0465 18              db         18h
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3242
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133070 on: February 18, 2023, 07:15:26 pm »
Huh. Didn't see that coming.

Working on a HP 334A. Needed a sig gen and since that recently acquired Sigilent was around I grabbed that. Seems to work fine and yes its updated. Actually, the rotary is shit and some of the buttons have problems but I won't hold that against them as it has been with a smoker for quite some time.

What I DO hold against it is what happens next. Starting out with the simplest measurement, just use it as voltmeter. So, the 334A reads well over a volt when I feed it a 1V signal. So, I figure, well, old gear. Unfortunate, but it's somewhat expected it would drift over time.

Just for fun and giggles I figured to double check.



@Ice-Tea
I came across the attached. Seems that the cracks around the display on the 87V Ex don't affect the ATEX rating  :-DMM
The ones you bought from Ramco may still be saleable.


Robert.

Favorite forumite status: unlocked.

OK if I use that picture?
 

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133071 on: February 18, 2023, 07:32:06 pm »
Polluting a bit.

8bit CEC board with NEC chip has 15 jumps(functions) starting from offset 0 and 3 starting from offset 0xc8.

1st function is clearly init, 7th is starting similarly.
Base is hard coded to 0x2b8.

Code: [Select]
...code snipped snipped..

Well, besides not having any clue what program is that from, it doesn't look to me as terrible complex and/or obfuscated, if by NEC chip you mean uPD7210 I have two of them and an 8bit ISA card with the same chip that should be somewhere, for the right price you can have them if you want (PM me), because right now I'm totally happy with the AR488. Also the chip register feature set is quite well documented.


Regarding the reversing and re-coding the original calibration utilities, there also the EXTREMELY IMPORTANT possibility to replace some of the test equipment used in calibration with some more modern and/or sane options, once the algorithms are found.
I don't see why one would need a Valhalla Scientific  7.5 digits DC calibrator !!! to DC calibrate some Tex 7xx series 6/8bit scope. IMHO, that was used either to promote their other products or to make the calibration process some kind expensive looking and magic thing only made by gray beard wizard available to fat wallets customers.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

 
The following users thanked this post: duckduck

Online TERRA Operative

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3242
  • Country: jp
  • Voider of warranties
    • Near Far Media Youtube
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133072 on: February 19, 2023, 05:39:23 am »
Ok, I started a thread on reverse engineering the Tek Field Adjustment Software:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-tds-scope-field-adjustment-software-reverse-engineering/
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
The following users thanked this post: ch_scr

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2705
  • Country: fi
« Last Edit: February 19, 2023, 02:55:01 pm by m k »
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline DC1MC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1917
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #133074 on: February 19, 2023, 01:19:27 pm »
@m k Kindly please repost in the new and fresh created thread, or the addicts will be pissed off :)
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf