Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 20969946 times)

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Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137125 on: January 11, 2025, 02:12:52 pm »
The past year has given, in memory of himself, an Englishman in a box condition.
I found the technical manual for it, but I did not find the operating manual. Does anyone have a scan?

Yes it seems all manuals on the web are the technical, there are 3 separate scans on the web archive, one of which is the Guildline 9575/9576 branded version of the Solartron Schlumberger 7055/7065.

According to my notes I have an original ops manual, but didn't note which part it was (I think it's in storage, but won't have time to go there this weekend), guess it's never going to be any use to me, seeing as MJ keeps buying up the affordable parts ones & destroying them.
Two spares/repair 7065 in overall good condition, were sold for approx £124 in Dec; https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/395998305213 I spent too much in Dec & couldn't bid.
Some boards appeared on feeBay a day or two ago.   :'(

David
« Last Edit: January 11, 2025, 02:17:52 pm by factory »
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137126 on: January 12, 2025, 05:33:47 pm »
Spent all week-end taking that old Rochar counter to bits, what a job... it's built like a tank... I pity anyone having to actually fix or restore these things... they aren't meant to be worked on....

Anyway, just found this thing : on the power board, the big T03 pass transistor is obviously mounted on a heat sink and what did they use for thermal transfer to the H/S ? Paste ? Mica ? 
Obviously not silicone as it's too old... no, none of that ! It's something new... new to me at least. Never even heard of it.... look at it !
A thick pad made of..... LEAD ?!  :wtf:    It sure looks like it to me ! It's made of metal, it's ductile, you can shape it effortlessly to whatever shape you want, doesn't kink, doesn't crack... it's like putty.
Qualities you would want for a H/S pad I guess !  :-//

I will try not to lick it, don't want to get some nasty disease.... not that I lick mica pads either, mind you...

Anyway that was quite surprising and educational so I thought I would share !

Do old beards here remember such things ??



« Last Edit: January 12, 2025, 05:56:26 pm by Vince »
 
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Online Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137127 on: January 12, 2025, 07:42:12 pm »
Lead is not a good thermal conductor. More likely to be very pure aluminium which is both very soft and a good thermal conductor.
How heavy is it?
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137128 on: January 12, 2025, 08:13:10 pm »
Well it's so small it's hard for me to say if it's light or heavy for its size.

My little weigh scale in the kitchen has a resolution of 1g and it reads 6g. So I will go with that.

I used my calipers to measure the thing then try to estimate its volume despite the weird shape... did my best.

Came up with a density of 10.9g/cm3.

Aluminium is 2.7 or so, so can't be that.

However according to this table Google found me :

https://www.wermac.org/materials/density_of_metal.html

10.9 is spot on the density of something they call "Antimonium"/hard  ... lead.
Pure / regular lead is 11.34 so could still be that, given how rough my estimate of the volume is, and the very crude resolution of the weigh scale... I admit.
However there is a factor 4 or so between aluminium and lead which rules aluminium out despite the crude measurement....

 

Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137129 on: January 12, 2025, 10:16:59 pm »
A quick update, the Advance TC6 is now mostly fixed (apart from the five broken decimal points), the intermittent counting problem was another bad diode and the missing digits were due to 2 open circuit base resistors for the display driver transistors.



And another 10MHz counter followed me home today, with bonus extras, a 100MHz divider module and R/C measuring module, not one I've seen as an extra for a counter before.  8) The counter also does phase angle measurement & Advance had a patent for this (# 1047760).



David
« Last Edit: January 12, 2025, 10:23:37 pm by factory »
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137130 on: January 12, 2025, 10:36:33 pm »
I guess you got a forklift to move that new counter around ?!  ;D

Phase measurement hmmmm... that reminds me of my Metrix DM442 niksee counter  I got 7+ years ago. It's not exactly a power house but it can do phase measurement and I found that uncommon and super cool ! ... Thanks for reminding me of him... I want to work on it now ! :D
I never worked on it in since getting it, a shame. I only remember doing a quick 5 minute test the day bought it and that was about it... I remember it had counting issues, but other than that...

« Last Edit: January 12, 2025, 10:40:29 pm by Vince »
 

Offline Zoli

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137131 on: January 13, 2025, 07:17:16 am »
...
Do old beards here remember such things ??
It could be an early version of the thermal paste.
 

Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137132 on: January 13, 2025, 10:04:49 am »
My little weigh scale in the kitchen has a resolution of 1g and it reads 6g. So I will go with that.


Radius for TO-3 center circle is 13.2mm, maybe few mm more for pad.
Hole is 4mm, maybe few holes of area more, so ~750mm2.

What were your area and thickness estimations?

If you try drawing with it better put the used paper away.

Maybe comparing known and unknown materials with DIY spectroscope is a thing for the next level.
CD can do diffraction grating, but after that it can be difficult, second reflection and all in same picture.
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(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Online Roehrenonkel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137133 on: January 13, 2025, 03:27:54 pm »
Hi Vince,

Do old beards here remember such things ??
Yeah, sure, i still have a dozen or so left. :-)

Ciao4now
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137134 on: January 13, 2025, 05:15:51 pm »
Oh cool ! So do you know what material tehy are made of then ?!  ;D

Since you have a dozen, could you please weigh them ?
If your weigh scale has the same 1g resolution as mine, it would vastly improve the resolution of our weigh measurement !  :-DMM

 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137135 on: January 13, 2025, 05:19:05 pm »
Radius for TO-3 center circle is 13.2mm, maybe few mm more for pad.
Hole is 4mm, maybe few holes of area more, so ~750mm2.

What were your area and thickness estimations?

I estimated it a 550mm2 so a quite different from you...
Thickness I measured exactly at 1.0mm so nice round number.

I will try measuring it again, more precisely, using 1x1 graphing paper rather than 5x5mm paper.

 

Offline duckduck

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137136 on: January 13, 2025, 05:39:38 pm »
Flame test might help identify the elements. Blowtorch and pliers are all that are needed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_test
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137137 on: January 13, 2025, 06:07:03 pm »
Well I only have one of such thing which I would like to preserve as part of my Vintage museum collection so to speak... so any sort of testing that might damage or ruin it, I do no wish to proceed with !  ;D

However Roehrenonkel has a dozen of them so maybe he would be willing to sacrifice one of them in the name of TEA science ?  ;D
 

Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137138 on: January 13, 2025, 06:19:50 pm »
Those in the plastic drawer look similar to those used by HP, I don't remember them being flexible, which is different to the one Vince described.

David
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137139 on: January 13, 2025, 06:29:20 pm »
Oops yes you are right, not same stuff !

I have also 2 or 3 of those, they are most definitely made of iron, nothing special.

My stuff is lead by any way you look at it. Density alone though crudely measured, can't be aluminium nor iron.

OK so back to square one then, I have the only example around.... or at least I DID ! I just tried to find it to measure it again, more accurately this time and... for the life of me I can't find any more !  :palm:

Well at least I took picture and measurements/density for the TEA posterity !  :-//

Hopefully I will find it again one day.. one day.
 

Online Roehrenonkel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137140 on: January 13, 2025, 07:45:12 pm »
Hi Vince,

Oh cool ! So do you know what material tehy are made of then ?!  ;D

Since you have a dozen, could you please weigh them ?
If your weigh scale has the same 1g resolution as mine, it would vastly improve the resolution of our weigh measurement !  :-DMM
No, i don't know, but i guess it's anodised aluminium.

Weight is 1.08 gramm, thickness is 0.55 mm and they don't burn (by the touch of a lighter).
And they don't conduct (even with pointy probe-tips).
Would be absurd to use these AND another washer for isolation.....

Ciao4now
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137141 on: January 13, 2025, 07:54:42 pm »
1.08g wow that's quite accurate, thanks for that ! :-+
0,55mm thick ? Mine was 1.0 and weigh 6g so the density of mine is 3 times that of yours... so yeah definitely not the same stuff..
 

Online factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137142 on: January 13, 2025, 08:11:45 pm »
Hi Vince,

Oh cool ! So do you know what material tehy are made of then ?!  ;D

Since you have a dozen, could you please weigh them ?
If your weigh scale has the same 1g resolution as mine, it would vastly improve the resolution of our weigh measurement !  :-DMM
No, i don't know, but i guess it's anodised aluminium.

Weight is 1.08 gramm, thickness is 0.55 mm and they don't burn (by the touch of a lighter).
And they don't conduct (even with pointy probe-tips).
Would be absurd to use these AND another washer for isolation.....

Ciao4now

The HP ones are described as "anodized aluminum" in the 140A manual, part no #1200-0043 for future ref. Maker is Cinch/Monadnock Mills part no #294457, a bit more web searching finds an advert.

David
« Last Edit: January 13, 2025, 08:21:02 pm by factory »
 
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Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137143 on: January 14, 2025, 06:43:00 pm »
OK so back to square one then, I have the only example around.... or at least I DID ! I just tried to find it to measure it again, more accurately this time and... for the life of me I can't find any more !  :palm:


So atypical placing then, standard set.

You've put it on a self or under something.
Maybe it is in the breast pocket of your lab coat.
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137144 on: January 14, 2025, 07:37:16 pm »
No, it got lost in the 5th dimension, I will never see it again...  :-BROKE
 

Online Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137145 on: January 14, 2025, 10:01:53 pm »
Hi Vince,

Do old beards here remember such things ??
Yeah, sure, i still have a dozen or so left. :-)

Ciao4now

Those are anodised aluminium alloy. Quite different to what Vince has pictured. The little tag is where they connected and hung them for the anodising.

Doh read to end of thread before posting....  :palm:

Vince's does look like a bare metal. Tin would be my next guess. Soft, density about right and better conductivity than lead.
IF you find it try touching with a soldering iron..
« Last Edit: January 15, 2025, 12:37:56 pm by Robert763 »
 
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Online Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137146 on: January 15, 2025, 05:42:18 pm »
The parts That I thought I needed to repair the THS720 input fault arrived today. Three surface mount relays. The exact parts are hard to come by. They are a small signal latching type with two 4.5V coils. Part number is EB2-4.5TNU. An odd voltage given that the drive circuit is 5V via a PNP transistor. If I recall correctly the old IBM Token Ring network hubs used 4.5V latching relays. Maybe these are a throw-back to them.
Anyway after looking at the relay specifications and 720A circuits I decided that the standard 5V version EB2-5TNU relay should be OK so that is what I ordered.
Took the 720 apart. Just 4 screws and then everything is either held by friction with foam pads or plastic clips. The hybrid is under a tinplate screen. This was clipped in before it was soldered making removal a bit tricky. There is very little space between the relays to de-solder or solder them. Decause of this and assuming they all had similar amounts of use I'd already decided to change all 3. Even then had to make up a special soldering iron bit extension to solder the new ones in.
It's a bit of a PITA but it's all working now and I have a THS720P for under £250  8)
 
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Online AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137147 on: January 16, 2025, 06:07:38 am »
The parts That I thought I needed to repair the THS720 input fault arrived today. Three surface mount relays. The exact parts are hard to come by. They are a small signal latching type with two 4.5V coils. Part number is EB2-4.5TNU. An odd voltage given that the drive circuit is 5V via a PNP transistor. If I recall correctly the old IBM Token Ring network hubs used 4.5V latching relays. Maybe these are a throw-back to them.
Anyway after looking at the relay specifications and 720A circuits I decided that the standard 5V version EB2-5TNU relay should be OK so that is what I ordered.
Took the 720 apart. Just 4 screws and then everything is either held by friction with foam pads or plastic clips. The hybrid is under a tinplate screen. This was clipped in before it was soldered making removal a bit tricky. There is very little space between the relays to de-solder or solder them. Decause of this and assuming they all had similar amounts of use I'd already decided to change all 3. Even then had to make up a special soldering iron bit extension to solder the new ones in.
It's a bit of a PITA but it's all working now and I have a THS720P for under £250  8)

Given I have effective unlimited access to old fire alarm equipment, it's a shame that the working voltage in such systems is 24V (nominally, usually; there are 12V systems but they are uncommon). It makes the high quality parts inside (such as this exact relay type) mostly unusable in home projects/repairs.
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Offline bsdphk

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137148 on: January 16, 2025, 07:43:18 am »
My stuff is lead by any way you look at it. Density alone though crudely measured, can't be aluminium nor iron.

Apart from being banned for toxicity these days, lead is not a bad choice for the job.

Lead is a quite decent thermal conductor, 30-35 W/mK, depending on alloys, it is ductile, stable, and not too dangerous (ses also: Beryllium).

For comparison mica comes in at .43 W/mK so it has to be 70 times thinner than lead for same thermal performance, but it is hard and brittle, so you also need thermal compund etc.

Of course mica is an excellent insulator, lead is anything but, but in most typical applications, oxidizing the surface will probably be sufficient, and the black-ish color on your picture may be just that, so dont clean them too much ?

In theory one can bolt a semiconductor directly to a properly anodized alu heat-sink, but it takes insane care and cleaning to avoid particles or surface imperfections from breaching the insulating oxide layer, both during initial assembly and subsequent mechanical shocks.
 

Online Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #137149 on: January 16, 2025, 07:54:44 am »
The parts That I thought I needed to repair the THS720 input fault arrived today. <SNIP>

Given I have effective unlimited access to old fire alarm equipment, it's a shame that the working voltage in such systems is 24V (nominally, usually; there are 12V systems but they are uncommon). It makes the high quality parts inside (such as this exact relay type) mostly unusable in home projects/repairs.

I have lots of 28V (yes 28) and 115V 400Hz components. They are pretty useless outside aviation. I have used the relays in applications where I can decide the control voltage.
 


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