Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[m k]

So, we need something that takes the acquisition clock as an input, that takes both channels / frontends as inputs, and has the ability to have an influence on what the signal will look like on the screen...

For analog side it could be a filter, but both channels have their own.
So maybe filter activation something.

Both channels activated can show something for digital side.
It could be visual pixel averaging or not, so mostly chip internals.
But it's only 1/1000 of max speed.

[Vince]

For those who like some old Tek scope restoration, now that I have just finished (for now at least) to restore my pair of vanilla 502, I am now starting work on restoring one of my three 502A :

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/(classic)-tektronix-502a-scope-repair-restoration/msg5812043/#msg5812043

[nikodem]

So I've backed myself into a corner... I've bought a HP 4140B to measure some APDs and just have some fun. And perhaps repair this equipment, as it was in "unknown"  state - the usual stuff. It came in good condition and working, so now I have to find accessories for it, or just anything. The first blocker is the triax connector for the current input. I don't want to pay a fortune for them but I have no idea how to uhm... go around.

[factory]

Well HP power meters are turning up like buses this weekend, I was the lucky winner of the 431A (only made for about 2 years before being updated as the 431B), the 431A was the first solid state power meter from HP, this one is the 1962 revision, I've had a quick look through both the A & B manuals, I couldn't really see much difference except the panel meter used & some minor changes to the PCB layout.

This HP journal covers the 431A; http://hparchive.com/Journals/HPJ-1961-06.pdf



The PCB uses rivets for every connection, guess they must have still had issues with the early PCBs when this was made.



Being in an early HP system I case, this power meter has some different holes/slots for the missing shoes (gone decades ago), the manual shows some feet I've never seen before.



The panel meter is made by Siemens, I don't think I've ever seen that brand in US made HP TE before, it needs the usual repairs to the flaking scale plate.



And today I managed to find not one but two broken 432A power meters at the Radioactive sale in Nantwich, there were two more with probes for more money, but I have some probes already. Both meter movements have issues, the early 70s one is stuck & has had the scale replaced with a photocopy, the second mid 80s one has the usual broken zero adjustor. Both are otherwise complete, which is good as I need a set of boards, for a digital one I bought from France, with both analog boards missing. 



The other item is another counter, because I just haven't got enough of them, this one is a Scaler counter, the first one I've found with a probe, need to find a bit more about both the ESI 237, the FHZ74V probe and see what I can find around here to check with it.



Nice to see the probe has the obligatory tape bomb  , around the high voltage connection.



David

[TERRA Operative]

I've repaired two HP meters now, one on a 427A Voltmeter, and just recently one on a 339A distortion measurement set.
I scan the face in high resolution, stick it into my CAD software and trace it, then print on glossy sticker paper at best settings on my inkjet, then pass it through my sticker cutter (I have a Silhouette Cameo 3) to cut out the mirror window.
The hardest bit is sticking it down without bubbles...

I challenge you to find another 339A with legible red inking on the meter face..... 

[timeandfrequency]

[...]
The other item is another counter, because I just haven't got enough of them, this one is a Scaler counter, the first one I've found with a probe, need to find a bit more about both the ESI 237, the FHZ74V probe and see what I can find around here to check with it.

Interesting to see that the high voltage that feeds the 'FHZ74V'  GM tube (50 Roentgen/h) is directly adjustable on the front panel.
Maybe the counter was sold with different GM tube models that needed different HV values.

[TobyG]

My most recent addition, a Heiden Power 1136 series DC Load/Power Supply with some features specifically tailored towards the automotive sector.
Basically I already have all the equipment in my shop to do everything it does, but having it all in one unit, with no setup, that's quite nice.


Features:
-milliamp mode (up to 200mA) with accurate display (useful when checking standby consumption, no external measuring required)
-boost mode with up to 150% of rated current for up to 20 seconds
-3 presets (voltage only, current has to be set manually; both voltage and current can be set with the output turned off)
-dynamic load/supply operation (load up to 160W continous, 320W peak at 50% duty cycle)
-charge/discharge testing of batteries
-replication of the car ignition sequence according to DIN 40839

And a bunch of smaller nice details.
But do you want to know what I like best?
The customer support.

This series has been out of production for 15 or so years now, yet Heiden replied to my email real quick, no questions asked. And the manual, well, that's what any manual should look like.
Beyond the usual instructions, a complete schematic with EVERY single component listed, in detail. Values, tolerance, footprint, even the supplier, when relevant. Lovely.

[tggzzz]

[...]
The other item is another counter, because I just haven't got enough of them, this one is a Scaler counter, the first one I've found with a probe, need to find a bit more about both the ESI 237, the FHZ74V probe and see what I can find around here to check with it.

Interesting to see that the high voltage that feeds the 'FHZ74V'  GM tube (50 Roentgen/h) is directly adjustable on the front panel.
Maybe the counter was sold with different GM tube models that needed different HV values.

That was common. Without bothering toi check, I expect that different tubes of the same model required differing voltages. You increased the voltage until there was a small background count, then measured the sample.

I have a timer counter used in schools, which has an exposed terminal with up to 500V on it. Touch the centre contact of the "GM" connector with your fingertip, and watch the dekatron spin.



If nothing else, it is a useful way of indicating to people that HV is not always dangerous.

[bsdphk]

Interesting to see that the high voltage that feeds the 'FHZ74V'  GM tube (50 Roentgen/h) is directly adjustable on the front panel.
Maybe the counter was sold with different GM tube models that needed different HV values.

GM tube varies so much that you always need to adjust the voltage to the tube for best/nominal sensitivity.

Modern equipment does it automatically.

[factory]

I've repaired two HP meters now, one on a 427A Voltmeter, and just recently one on a 339A distortion measurement set.
I scan the face in high resolution, stick it into my CAD software and trace it, then print on glossy sticker paper at best settings on my inkjet, then pass it through my sticker cutter (I have a Silhouette Cameo 3) to cut out the mirror window.
The hardest bit is sticking it down without bubbles...

I challenge you to find another 339A with legible red inking on the meter face..... 

Very nice, I'm going to have to learn that process one day, there are many here that could be improved, mostly the older ones.

Haven't got a 339A, but I do have a 410C with the original red scale printing still visible, guess it must have spent it's working life in a very very dark room.

David

[factory]

[...]
The other item is another counter, because I just haven't got enough of them, this one is a Scaler counter, the first one I've found with a probe, need to find a bit more about both the ESI 237, the FHZ74V probe and see what I can find around here to check with it.

Interesting to see that the high voltage that feeds the 'FHZ74V'  GM tube (50 Roentgen/h) is directly adjustable on the front panel.
Maybe the counter was sold with different GM tube models that needed different HV values.

That's possible they provided the adjustment, to use with different GM tubes.

I'm not convinced this GM tube was supplied with this scaler counter, more that it was a replacement, hence the bodge with electrical tape and the GM socket being replaced with a regular BNC.
I'm going to have a look inside, to see if I can at least work out the age of the counter, also it's made by "ESI nuclear" and not ESI as in the maker of the Madonna resistance box on the previous page.

GM tube varies so much that you always need to adjust the voltage to the tube for best/nominal sensitivity.

Modern equipment does it automatically.

Thanks for that info and to tggzzz for confirming that, as I was wondering how to work out what it should be set to, I've also got older equipment where it's not adjustable from the outside.

David

[duckduck]

My most recent addition, a Heiden Power 1136 series DC Load/Power Supply with some features specifically tailored towards the automotive sector.
Basically I already have all the equipment in my shop to do everything it does, but having it all in one unit, with no setup, that's quite nice.


Features:
-milliamp mode (up to 200mA) with accurate display (useful when checking standby consumption, no external measuring required)
-boost mode with up to 150% of rated current for up to 20 seconds
-3 presets (voltage only, current has to be set manually; both voltage and current can be set with the output turned off)
-dynamic load/supply operation (load up to 160W continous, 320W peak at 50% duty cycle)
-charge/discharge testing of batteries
-replication of the car ignition sequence according to DIN 40839

And a bunch of smaller nice details.
But do you want to know what I like best?
The customer support.

This series has been out of production for 15 or so years now, yet Heiden replied to my email real quick, no questions asked. And the manual, well, that's what any manual should look like.
Beyond the usual instructions, a complete schematic with EVERY single component listed, in detail. Values, tolerance, footprint, even the supplier, when relevant. Lovely.

That looks very nice. I see it has LAN and USB. Schematic and BOM is incredible. Does it do power and load at the same time, or is it built only for one at a time?

[TobyG]

That looks very nice. I see it has LAN and USB. Schematic and BOM is incredible. Does it do power and load at the same time, or is it built only for one at a time?

The power supply and load go through the same connectors, so it does one at a time, but it does switch on its' own, once the voltage at the output connection exceeds the voltage set in the power supply, it switches to load mode.


Yes, it does have the optional 9991-905 RS232&USB&TCP/IP card installed. As it is, not terribly useful to me.
There was a free software available, but unfortunately it's not archived at the manufacturer nor elsewhere on the internet.
Wayback machine has the download page of their website archived, but not the files.
Odds of finding it are low, but I did start a thread in a german forum, on the off chance...

That being said, the driver for the USB is freely available, Windows straight up recognizes it, too, for a FTDI USB Serial converter.

Commands and DIP switch settings are listed in the manual (see 1.1.44 in the attached *pdf file), but the manual is from before the card installed in my unit was available,
so that is not terribly helpful, either. EDIT: Nevermind, just got an email, they did dig up a copy of the manual 
I haven't played around with them, yet, but LEDs below the USB and Ethernet ports are not lit, the one under the RS232 port is, however.

Hence the reason I guess the DIP switches might just work a bit different on the card I got in there.



Of course, if anyone has the *PDF manual for 9991-905 and the Heiden Slidercontrol or Slidercontrol2 installation files...

[Hydron]

A quick skim of the PDFs suggest that it's just SCPI over RS232/Ethernet (IIRC those LAN ports in your pic have a controller inside for converting UART to ethernet). You don't need the original software to run it - if you're able to put the time into writing an instrument definition then you can use something like HKJ's TestController (see forum thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/) or just write your own code to talk to it (python is my go-to because I'm lazy). You can even just control it manually (SCPI is ASCII based so just type stuff in a terminal).

[rdenney]

You guys are a bad influence. I just pulled the trigger on a Rigol DHO804 scope, which will be a big improvement on the even cheapier Hantek I've been using. No, I didn't get the Siglent, notwithstanding better specs, simply because for what I do those specs aren't important. But I like what I see with the Rigol UI, and I really like being able to throw a larger touchscreen at it without having to devote a computer to IP into the built-in web interface. Managing computers is not fun for me (too much like work), though if there was ever a justification for a Linux distro with nothing but a web browser on it, this would be it. For the audio stuff I play with, 70 MHz is fine, but it appears to me that this scope does much better than that if you limit it to one channel input.

I have to say that the many threads comparing the 4-channel, 70MHZ Rigol with the Siglent devolved into unhelpful arguments with far more heat than light. It took a long time to scan through all that to find out what the scopes would actually do, to see if I could be persuaded that the Siglent's better specs were useful enough to overcome what I liked about the Rigol's UI and HDMI port. Now you guys can tell me what an idiot I am

If I put a computer on the bench, it will be running REW, which I've used for distortion analysis of vintage audio that isn't too demanding of test equipment.

Rick "who will have to sneak it into the house when it is delivered" Denney

[TobyG]

A quick skim of the PDFs suggest that it's just SCPI over RS232/Ethernet (IIRC those LAN ports in your pic have a controller inside for converting UART to ethernet). You don't need the original software to run it - if you're able to put the time into writing an instrument definition then you can use something like HKJ's TestController (see forum thread here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/) or just write your own code to talk to it (python is my go-to because I'm lazy). You can even just control it manually (SCPI is ASCII based so just type stuff in a terminal).

I'm gonna out myself here, but that's all pretty much greek to me.


But hey, time to learn something new. I'd already seen myself starting from scratch, with just what the manual provided (which seems to be plenty - if you know what you're doing).
That'd have taken ages, at best.

For a first little success I did set the DIP switches for USB, the program does recognize there is something connected.
Ohhh boy, I'm excited.


Will keep y'all updated on what happens, whether you want to or not, once I got some time to play with that.

[Robert763]

[...]
The other item is another counter, because I just haven't got enough of them, this one is a Scaler counter, the first one I've found with a probe, need to find a bit more about both the ESI 237, the FHZ74V probe and see what I can find around here to check with it.

Interesting to see that the high voltage that feeds the 'FHZ74V'  GM tube (50 Roentgen/h) is directly adjustable on the front panel.
Maybe the counter was sold with different GM tube models that needed different HV values.

Hmm, that counter and tube came through my hands at one time. I sold it on ebay around 2010. The probe has a "european" low voltage tube. It was a standard probe used on several cold war era west german counters, It's the high range (low sensitivity) variant. The FHZ-76 was 50 times more sensitive. Thay bothe used Philips tubes ZP 13xx series but I don't recall the exact numbers. They run atound 400-500V.
The counter is an educational model, nothing special. I only put the tube with it to prove it was working. I got the tubes as mixed bags of NOS from Helmut Singer. Should have bought more of them. I don't have many left....
I recognise the 431A too. You should just come by here and cut out the middle man :-)

Robert.

[Vince]

I about to part ways with my pair of old HP 416B reflectometers.
I rescued them from the dump 2 years ago but I have zero need for them and they take lots of valuable space so... sadly they are among the first in line in my TE downsizing 

I would like to find them a good home if possible, rather than taking them apart, but I guess if I want a decent chance  of finding a taker, I will need to advertise at least nation-wide, or Europe-wide, which means I will need to pack them for shipping... which is both expensive and a pain in the butt so... I don't feel like bothering with that if they sell for only 50 Euros or something...

So, I am asking the experts there how much these things are worth ? I mean, realistically, not day dreaming...

The issue is, I Googled and found only ONE single ad for a 416B, on Ebay USA, for 200 bucks on offer. So with a sample of only one, I don't know if the thing is actualyl worth that much, or if the guy is out of touch and even for 50 bucks he won't sell it at all... so I am asking the vintage HP experts their opinions !

https://www.ebay.com/itm/332317468655

Please tell me what you think.

What I fear is that it's worth bugger all because it's not a general purpose piece of equipment like say a scope or power supply... so nobody would want one.

Mine are both in great nick inside out, they just need to be fixed electrically. I did buy an original printed copy of the manual, at great expense...

If someone here might be interested, speak up...

[factory]

Well I don't think I've ever seen one for sale or sold over here, probably all been recycled by the glassware dealers. 

Application note 54 shows the uses and refers to note 61 for the equipment that replaced it, a 130 series oscilloscope and levelled sweep oscillator (I have a 691D and various 8620).
Of the test setups for the 416B, I have most of the equipment for the crystal detector matching one.

https://www.hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_54.pdf
https://www.hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_61.pdf

If I had the correct the RF plumbing, that goes with test setups, I guess I could eventually use one.
If you can't find a local buyer, I would be interested in at least one of them, please don't trash the outer cases if you decide you don't want to deal with posting heavy TE.

Edit: And application note 65 discusses later TE, such as the 1416A plug-in for the 140 series scope, which replaced the 130C setup. There is a 1416A & 1417A* here too.
https://hpmemoryproject.org/an/pdf/an_65.pdf

*Which seems to be very uncommon, the only reference on the web is a tiny mention in "wireless world" magazine.

David

[Vince]

Well I don't think I've ever seen one for sale or sold over here, probably all been recycled by the glassware dealers. 

 

Application note 54 shows the uses and refers to note 61 for the equipment that replaced it, a 130 series oscilloscope and levelled sweep oscillator

Oh, how fitting that I just got a 130 scope then ! 

If I had the correct the RF plumbing, that goes with test setups, I guess I could eventually use one.
If you can't find a local buyer, I would be interested in at least one of them, please don't trash the outer cases if you decide you don't want to deal with posting heavy TE.

David

For you they are free, you can have both if you want, at least they will be loved.
You will "only" have to pay for shipping but that's freaking expensive, so it's up to you... I will weigh them and check the shipping cost and get back to you.
If you can't afford shipping for the two of them, maybe just get one and I will try to find a local taker for the other one...  Let's work something out in the best interest of these puppies !!   

I find the cabinets and front panels so beautiful, I so wish I could keep them if just so I can keep looking at them...  it's tough trying to be reasonable 

[TERRA Operative]

In a slight departure from Test Equipment....

Anyone in UK able to do me a favour to on-ship a phone part to me?
Seems basically all the sellers of new original back covers for my phone are UK based, with the usual inflated international shipping costs....

[AVGresponding]

In a slight departure from Test Equipment....

Anyone in UK able to do me a favour to on-ship a phone part to me?
Seems basically all the sellers of new original back covers for my phone are UK based, with the usual inflated international shipping costs....

DM me

[Robert763]

Those HP 416B meters are of very little value or practical use. They are not even RF devices. They are 1kHz audio level meters.
As Factory alludes to you need a bunch of RF bits to put them to any use. I hate to say it but probably best as parts donors for more useful or historically interesting kit.

Talking of th RF bits does anyone in the UK have a slotted line they want to sell? It's only for a demonstration so don't mind what make model or even condition. 

Robert.

[factory]

Application note 54 shows the uses and refers to note 61 for the equipment that replaced it, a 130 series oscilloscope and levelled sweep oscillator

Oh, how fitting that I just got a 130 scope then ! 

If I had the correct the RF plumbing, that goes with test setups, I guess I could eventually use one.
If you can't find a local buyer, I would be interested in at least one of them, please don't trash the outer cases if you decide you don't want to deal with posting heavy TE.

David

For you they are free, you can have both if you want, at least they will be loved.
You will "only" have to pay for shipping but that's freaking expensive, so it's up to you... I will weigh them and check the shipping cost and get back to you.
If you can't afford shipping for the two of them, maybe just get one and I will try to find a local taker for the other one...  Let's work something out in the best interest of these puppies !!   

I find the cabinets and front panels so beautiful, I so wish I could keep them if just so I can keep looking at them...  it's tough trying to be reasonable 

Thank you Vince, if no-one wants the second one let me know the rough costs to pack & send both of them, it's going to be impossible to sneak them in though. 

Now got to find an affordable (definitely not Scottrade then  ) dual directional coupler, check if I have one or two detectors etc.

Those HP 416B meters are of very little value or practical use. They are not even RF devices. They are 1kHz audio level meters.
As Factory alludes to you need a bunch of RF bits to put them to any use. I hate to say it but probably best as parts donors for more useful or historically interesting kit.

Talking of th RF bits does anyone in the UK have a slotted line they want to sell? It's only for a demonstration so don't mind what make model or even condition. 

Robert.

I did eventually manage to find a complete & undamaged HP slotted line, to use with the 1416A, complete with non-matched probes for the slotted line sweep adaptor, because I got them several years apart.

I've also got another one that went via GSP from the US, it did get some damage, it's currently somewhere in the wardrobe in the spare room, it has the untuned probe if I remember, only have one of those.

If it's for a demonstration do you need it afterwards? I could loan one of mine if it helps.

David

[factory]

[...]
The other item is another counter, because I just haven't got enough of them, this one is a Scaler counter, the first one I've found with a probe, need to find a bit more about both the ESI 237, the FHZ74V probe and see what I can find around here to check with it.

Interesting to see that the high voltage that feeds the 'FHZ74V'  GM tube (50 Roentgen/h) is directly adjustable on the front panel.
Maybe the counter was sold with different GM tube models that needed different HV values.

Hmm, that counter and tube came through my hands at one time. I sold it on ebay around 2010. The probe has a "european" low voltage tube. It was a standard probe used on several cold war era west german counters, It's the high range (low sensitivity) variant. The FHZ-76 was 50 times more sensitive. Thay bothe used Philips tubes ZP 13xx series but I don't recall the exact numbers. They run atound 400-500V.
The counter is an educational model, nothing special. I only put the tube with it to prove it was working. I got the tubes as mixed bags of NOS from Helmut Singer. Should have bought more of them. I don't have many left....
I recognise the 431A too. You should just come by here and cut out the middle man :-)

Robert.

Well that is most unexpected, finding the one counter with tube you once owned, with a dealer at the nearest radio/ham sale to me. 

Your right I should have gone direct to you, do you still have any of the more sensitive probes? Or anything older that might be usable with the ancient Advance scaler counters SC1 or SC3?

I must confess I recognised the 431A once I had seen a picture of it, I have a picture of it from 2013, back when I had no need for power meters. Should have realised sooner when you mentioned "431" previously, I just assumed it was a later C variant.



I've found a bit more about the ESI that made the educational scaler counter, the full name on the device is "ESI Nuclear", with ESI standing for Edwards Scientific International, they seemed to have at least two sites, one in Mirfield Yorkshire, haven't found much about that one, except some politics involving the closure of the site in 1975 & a possible mention of making calculators for Sinclair, no idea if that is true or not. 

ESI Nuclear were based in Redhill Surrey and had a number of adverts in electronics magazines in 1973, a later article form 1979 shows a different probe (maybe what they sold with these).



Mine seems to be a little newer, suggesting part of ESI survived the 1975 closure, with date codes on the various parts of 1980/81. Inside is a fairly heavy transformer for the low & high voltages, with a multiplier circuit for the EHT, using some some ITT caps that would probably benefit from replacement.



Wonder what voltage is going through that ribbon cable, to the EHT pot on the front panel? 



The counter side has a 555 based reference clock, no fancy quartz rubbish in sight  , the rest is the usual 7490 & other TTL ICs.





There is a coax cable going to the 10kHz socket that has fallen off the PCB, I think I know where it should go and will confirm with a scope over the weekend.





David