Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 2035643 times)

slburris, mnementh, DaJMasta, Tomorokoshi, kj7e, Kosmic, xrunner (+ 1 Hidden) and 34 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Specmaster

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7614
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16575 on: September 20, 2018, 10:42:22 am »
True, I have heard other say that too, but the frequency of such events is very low, probably have a higher chance of getting struck by lightning in reality. 
Who let Murphy in?
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12139
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16576 on: September 20, 2018, 11:34:05 am »
If you eliminate Duracell from your life it will be much better.
 

Offline BillB

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Country: us
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16577 on: September 20, 2018, 12:42:07 pm »
If you eliminate Duracell from your life it will be much better.

If you eliminate Duracell alkaline from your life it will be much better.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12139
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16578 on: September 20, 2018, 03:01:10 pm »
Not quite yet. Alkaline still has excellent power density and a good shelf life.
 

Offline BillB

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Country: us
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16579 on: September 20, 2018, 03:18:50 pm »
Ain't worth it for me.  Anymore they leak like sieves.  The extra cost for lithium is worth the peace of mind of not finding another device damaged because I didn't do a monthly well-being check on some crappy alkaline battery before it decided to piss itself.   
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12139
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16580 on: September 20, 2018, 03:52:02 pm »
Absolutely fine as long as you don’t drain them flat in situ and don’t buy Duracell’s (I use GP). Looking at my rapid order history I’ve bought well over 1000 GP AA’s in the last three years and not had a single leak.

100% of the destruction I see is stuff that has been left for months in low drain (soft power switches), Duracell’s and stuff that has been sitting there for years and the batteries out out of date.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8157
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16581 on: September 20, 2018, 04:04:07 pm »
Not quite yet. Alkaline still has excellent power density and a good shelf life.
Both are useless if the cells destroy your equipment.
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12139
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16582 on: September 20, 2018, 04:09:44 pm »
I think we need to consider all types of batteries here:

1. Alkaline. Leak
2. Lead acid. Gassing, sulfation, meltdowns.
3. Lithium chemistry. Violent explosions. Leaks (think CMOS/backup batteries)
4. Zinc carbon. No energy density worth mentioning
5. Nimh. Low cell potential

Know your cells and look after them. All battery chemistries are a compromise and all dense energy storage mediums are risks.
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3653
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16583 on: September 20, 2018, 04:22:23 pm »
Ain't worth it for me.  Anymore they leak like sieves.  The extra cost for lithium is worth the peace of mind of not finding another device damaged because I didn't do a monthly well-being check on some crappy alkaline battery before it decided to piss itself.

Hmm, and Lithium based batteries have such a good record of safety and stability...

Look what I found in my tablet one morning a fortnight ago.



That battery is supposed to be flat and only 3mm thick instead of the bulging 14mm item shown here. I don't like to think what might have happened if I hadn't spotted it and removed it both from power and from the the tablet.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:27:46 pm by Cerebus »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8157
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16584 on: September 20, 2018, 04:33:27 pm »
I think we need to consider all types of batteries here:

1. Alkaline. Leak
2. Lead acid. Gassing, sulfation, meltdowns.
3. Lithium chemistry. Violent explosions. Leaks (think CMOS/backup batteries)
4. Zinc carbon. No energy density worth mentioning
5. Nimh. Low cell potential

Know your cells and look after them. All battery chemistries are a compromise and all dense energy storage mediums are risks.
"Lithium chemistry" is a family and it's mostly the most common rechargeable one that has earned it its bad rap. Li-ion can be violent, LiFePO 4 and upcoming  solid state cells are much less of a hassle. There's plenty more of them.
 

Online BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6256
  • Country: 00
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16585 on: September 20, 2018, 04:36:35 pm »
My personal journey with alkalines, and yes, they're genuine and local Energizer offered for replacement, but enough is enough for me.

In 2013 .. watch the date code at the cells, and they're not drained at all.




Above bastards caused this at my Fluke 287.  >:(




And last year 2017 ... again   :( -> YARA

Offline Specmaster

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7614
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16586 on: September 20, 2018, 04:42:46 pm »
Hmm, and Lithium based batteries have such a good record of safety and stability...

Look what I found in my tablet one morning a fortnight ago.



That battery is supposed to be flat and only 3mm thick instead of the bulging 14mm item shown here. I don't like to think what might have happened if I hadn't spotted it and removed it both from power and from the the tablet.
Phew that bugger was reall close to letting fly with horrible consequences. What drew your attention to them in the first place, where they distorting the tablet?
Who let Murphy in?
 

Online mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5285
  • Country: ca
  • *Escaping The Suck*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16587 on: September 20, 2018, 04:46:22 pm »
Geez......You're STILL fussing and we've yet to see the demo.  |O |O |O |O :-DD :palm: :-DD :-DD :-DD :blah: :blah: :blah:

Nah... yesterday was just a big steaming load of Murphy's for me. As my grandmother would say, "One gawddamn thing after another..." all topped off with my son bringing home some summer cold bug and a filling crumbling in one of my teeth. I just decided to take it out on the 9V battery that was such a thorn in my side rather than the people at my daughter's school, who are hamstrung by the State of Texas' War on Public Education.

Also, I'm trying to fix the AC in the ol' Franken-Cruiser; this has been a bit of a higher priority, I'm afraid. I gave it a shot of dye last fall when I found it was low; but I can't find a trace of it. Means the leak is either super slow and high enough that no oil is carried with, or it's in the evap and not enough to be carried out with the condensate. I've declared a strategic withdrawal on that front as well; gonna just add enough refrigerant to bring it up to normal operating pressures and make it stop short-cycling.

@mnementh I find it amazing that didn't download a copy of the manual for your  DE 5000 before buying it. Then you'll have known that needed 9v and either have prepared like a boy scout should be, or looked at other meters.

I always have around 100 to 240v handy and that doesn't include 9v batteries of which I normally have 27 to 36v in my spares containers.

Just think about it, had you gone for the XJW01 then you would have done your playing around and would have presented your demo by now. And no batteries to cause these problems [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

Perhaps we should all chip in and buy him a few.  >:D :-DD :-DD
You know I've had plenty of the normal single cells shit over the devices that they were supposed to be powering. But I honestly have had a 9v battery crap it self yet on any of my equipment, I've seen some that were rusty in a piece of Heathkit gear, 9v FTW especially on small low power items that aren't going to be used that much.

I suspect that's because they're typically made up of cells within the outer case, rather than the outer case directly containing the chemicals as it is with a normal AA, C or D cell.  That means that the nastiness needs to breach two barriers instead of just one before it can run amok corroding the crap out of the innards of one's precious and pricey piece of gear. This is a good thing, IMO.

-Pat
I actually DID download a manual, as the listing warned me that the meter was coming from Japan with all packaging and documentation in Japanese. I just expected to be able to stop in and grab ONE on the way home; I wasn't prepared to spend a steak dinner's worth on batteries I didn't need or want. The rest was just real life getting in the way with OTHER shit I had to do instead of play with my new toy.  |O

Alkaline 9V batteries used to be made of AAAA cells tab-welded together; however since the mercury-free days, I don't think I've seen one made that way. The ones I've seen since all appear to be series stacked polymer-block construction very similar to regular carbon-zinc. These DO have a new failure mode; when they leak, they blow the ends off the battery and "grow" lengthwise, cracking the battery box of whatever they're installed in. I've seen a bunch of wireless microphones in various AV depts that died this way.

I think we need to consider all types of batteries here:

1. Alkaline. Leak
2. Lead acid. Gassing, sulfation, meltdowns.
3. Lithium chemistry. Violent explosions. Leaks (think CMOS/backup batteries)
4. Zinc carbon. No energy density worth mentioning
5. Nimh. Low cell potential

Know your cells and look after them. All battery chemistries are a compromise and all dense energy storage mediums are risks.
"Lithium chemistry" is a family and it's mostly the most common rechargeable one that has earned it its bad rap. Li-ion can be violent, LiFePO 4 and upcoming  solid state cells are much less of a hassle. There's plenty more of them.

Lixx cylindrical cells, particularly the 18650 variant, now have decades of service in everyday life under some of the most rigorous abuse-case scenarios and have proven themselves generally much more reliable and safer than alkaline. The main real safety issue they present is that inherent in their high-energy density; that they CAN deliver dangerous amounts of current in a short-circuit scenario.

LiPo cells used in any consumer electronics is simply a calculated risk; one that the public has shown they're willing to live with for the sake of thin & light. They are a fragile technology; physicallly, environmentally and electrically. They are NOT suited to use in a TOOL, nor in any hostile environment.

Cheers,

mnem
I'm vertical and wearing pants. What the fuck more dooya want?!?

« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 04:49:59 pm by mnementh »
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3653
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16588 on: September 20, 2018, 04:57:57 pm »
Phew that bugger was reall close to letting fly with horrible consequences. What drew your attention to them in the first place, where they distorting the tablet?

It's a Nexus 9, which has a quite flexible plastic back that allowed them to bulge without doing any damage. If I hadn't had it in a comparatively thick case I'd have, in retrospect, noticed it a few days earlier when it was at a less advanced stage. I put the case down on the table, noticed that it was rocking rather than sitting flat, pulled it out of the case, and the bulging was quite obvious through the back of the tablet. Abound a fortnight before that I'd had it out of the case to use in a mount in the car as a huge, easy to follow GPS, and there was no problem evident then.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4153
  • Country: nl
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16589 on: September 20, 2018, 05:04:41 pm »
Phew that bugger was reall close to letting fly with horrible consequences. What drew your attention to them in the first place, where they distorting the tablet?

It's a Nexus 9, which has a quite flexible plastic back that allowed them to bulge without doing any damage. If I hadn't had it in a comparatively thick case I'd have, in retrospect, noticed it a few days earlier when it was at a less advanced stage. I put the case down on the table, noticed that it was rocking rather than sitting flat, pulled it out of the case, and the bulging was quite obvious through the back of the tablet. Abound a fortnight before that I'd had it out of the case to use in a mount in the car as a huge, easy to follow GPS, and there was no problem evident then.

I found more or less the same in my Samsung S7 Edge while wondering why it was trying to work off the back. It looks like these batteries are producing a lot of gas for some reason.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline Ice-Tea

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1503
  • Country: be
    • Freelance Hardware Engineer
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16590 on: September 20, 2018, 05:38:46 pm »
Been waiting all day for the delivery of the racks that will hold my gear in the new office.

Apparently, they made a bit of a SNAFU as they confirmed delivery for today by mail but can't deliver for another two weeks. Wouldn't be terrible if I hadn't wasted all day for it.

eBay shop with all the gear you need!
FS: Agilent 54825A, R&S CMU200, CRTU, Marconi 6201B, Lecroy WP 950, 9354TM, 9354M, 9374L LC584A, Tek THS720P, TDS7154B, Anritsu MG3671A 2.75G I/Q RF gen, Keithley 238 SMU 707 matrix, HP 8642B, 8903A, 8110A, 8156
 

Online mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5285
  • Country: ca
  • *Escaping The Suck*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16591 on: September 20, 2018, 06:06:24 pm »
Phew that bugger was reall close to letting fly with horrible consequences. What drew your attention to them in the first place, where they distorting the tablet?

It's a Nexus 9, which has a quite flexible plastic back that allowed them to bulge without doing any damage. If I hadn't had it in a comparatively thick case I'd have, in retrospect, noticed it a few days earlier when it was at a less advanced stage. I put the case down on the table, noticed that it was rocking rather than sitting flat, pulled it out of the case, and the bulging was quite obvious through the back of the tablet. Abound a fortnight before that I'd had it out of the case to use in a mount in the car as a huge, easy to follow GPS, and there was no problem evident then.

I found more or less the same in my Samsung S7 Edge while wondering why it was trying to work off the back. It looks like these batteries are producing a lot of gas for some reason.
Puffing in a LiPo is a fault condition, not part of normal operation. This is not usually caused by the cell, but rather by some abuse of the cell. The reason for the puffing is that some of the microscopic-thin plates in the cell have shorted out, and the gas is produced as those plates arc and burn away. If the fault is bad enough, then you have a LiPo fire. What abuse? Unfortunately, there are many potential causes with LiPo technology.

Over-discharge is the most common; it causes the electrolyte to shrink away such that the bare plates are exposed and have opportunity to contact. The cell's protection circuitry is supposed to prevent this; evidently this is an area where more development is necessary. Often it is the normal expansion of the next charge cycle which reveals the damage; with incendiary results.

Exposure to excessive heat or cold, most often caused by the device being left outdoors or in a car, is the other most likely cause.

Very rarely do you have physical damage, such as puncture caused by physical ingress into the device, or as was the case with the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 recently, a change in supply chain resulted in LiPo cells that were slightly oversized, and no longer had sufficient room for expansion as in the original design spec. This resulted in compression and damaging of the plates.

Cheers,

mnem
*Back to the salt mines*
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 12139
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16592 on: September 20, 2018, 06:09:28 pm »
Phew that bugger was reall close to letting fly with horrible consequences. What drew your attention to them in the first place, where they distorting the tablet?

It's a Nexus 9, which has a quite flexible plastic back that allowed them to bulge without doing any damage. If I hadn't had it in a comparatively thick case I'd have, in retrospect, noticed it a few days earlier when it was at a less advanced stage. I put the case down on the table, noticed that it was rocking rather than sitting flat, pulled it out of the case, and the bulging was quite obvious through the back of the tablet. Abound a fortnight before that I'd had it out of the case to use in a mount in the car as a huge, easy to follow GPS, and there was no problem evident then.

I found more or less the same in my Samsung S7 Edge while wondering why it was trying to work off the back. It looks like these batteries are producing a lot of gas for some reason.

They just do that if you dick around with them. They are very intolerant of any abuse. Once the gas has escaped they are inert. The problem is the rate of gas generation and the temperature during it. This can end catastrophically if the cells are poorly designed. I’ve actually got an iPhone 5s that currently lives in the garden as the battery started to bulge. It hasn’t exploded yet but it did pop the screen. Some insects appear to have made it home. I initially assumed at some point it would go Pompeii on their arses but alas nothing.

Great video showing how they make the cells here:

https://youtu.be/JivACPT4tcg
 
The following users thanked this post: bitseeker

Offline BillB

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 600
  • Country: us
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16593 on: September 20, 2018, 06:15:22 pm »
Ain't worth it for me.  Anymore they leak like sieves.  The extra cost for lithium is worth the peace of mind of not finding another device damaged because I didn't do a monthly well-being check on some crappy alkaline battery before it decided to piss itself.
Hmm, and Lithium based batteries have such a good record of safety and stability...

I'll rephrase.  I'll only use Lithium Iron Disulfide AA/AAA/9V cells in my gadgets.
 

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4153
  • Country: nl
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16594 on: September 20, 2018, 06:25:00 pm »
The thing with my Samsung (and I guess Cerebus' tablet) is that you could expect the charge circuit to be ok, and I didn't 'dick around' with it, never left it in my car and there was no visible damage or suspect construction problems as with the Note. I did punch a very small hole in it and let the gas escape and it worked ok for another month. After that the capacity dropped like Flynn's trousers and I replaced it. I still have it so if anyone has a suggestion what to look for I can do it (outside  ;) ).
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Offline Specmaster

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7614
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16595 on: September 20, 2018, 06:39:50 pm »
So amazing how clean that factory was and how they arrange for breaks to keep it clean, watching that does kind of put a new face on Made in China, they are building quality in at each step along the route to the final product.
Who let Murphy in?
 

Online mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5285
  • Country: ca
  • *Escaping The Suck*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16596 on: September 20, 2018, 06:40:06 pm »
They just do that if you dick around with them. They are very intolerant of any abuse. Once the gas has escaped they are inert. The problem is the rate of gas generation and the temperature during it. This can end catastrophically if the cells are poorly designed. I’ve actually got an iPhone 5s that currently lives in the garden as the battery started to bulge. It hasn’t exploded yet but it did pop the screen. Some insects appear to have made it home. I initially assumed at some point it would go Pompeii on their arses but alas nothing.
(SNIP)

Puffed cells can hold a large portion of their rated storage capacity; don't ever believe that a puffed cell is inert. They only stop releasing gas when they catch fire and burn up. ;)

Another issue with LiPo technology is that it is a "livestock" type commodity; it has a fixed lifespan, whether in use or not. From the moment it is manufactured, a LiPo cell begins to degrade internally; electrolysis alters the actual chemistry of the cell, increasing internal resistance and decreasing net capacity.  Eventually the chemistry of the cell is no longer within the design specs of the control circuitry, and over-charge or over-discharge occurs as a result. THIS is the safety-concern scenario Apple had to face when they started throttling back the CPU in devices with aging LiPo batteries.

This is a reality that is just now becoming common knowledge as eventually, all LiPo packs will probably die this way; it's just a matter of  time. I foresee litigation outlawing the permanent encapsulation of LiPo batteries in products as Apple has been doing for almost 2 decades; manufacturers may be forced to either use metal-cased cells or abandon LiPo non-replaceable battery designs altogether.

mnem
*Sick & tired of being sick... and tired.*
« Last Edit: September 20, 2018, 08:00:18 pm by mnementh »
 
The following users thanked this post: PA0PBZ

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3653
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16597 on: September 20, 2018, 06:48:03 pm »
Yeah, I suspect the failure mode of mine was simply age-related fragility. The tablet and its battery have always been cosseted. It lives in a case for mechanical protection, it never gets heavily discharged (I doubt that it has seen less than 50% SoC more than two or three times), it's used almost exclusively in the house under very moderate temperature extremes. The manufacturing date on the battery is 14th August 2014.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Online PA0PBZ

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4153
  • Country: nl
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16598 on: September 20, 2018, 07:38:13 pm »
The manufacturing date on the battery is 14th August 2014.

22-04-2016 here, so I guess 2 years is what you can expect? Thanks mnem for the insight.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Online mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5285
  • Country: ca
  • *Escaping The Suck*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #16599 on: September 20, 2018, 08:24:28 pm »
Welcome.

I've been using LiPos without protection   >:D :scared:  :o for over a decade; they're pretty much the only thing for RC flight anymore.

I've had my share of spectacular LiPo failures; even with battery bugs and high-end balance chargers, it's just too easy to make a mistake. Particularly with multirotors, its virtually impossible to make a protection circuit that'll work; it'd have to be able to pass 300A surge current without frying the switching element, which just isn't feasible. Also, there is the safety issue; an unpowered multirotor becomes a 1-2 kilo brick falling at  9.8 meter/sec², so you'd much rather kill a battery bringing it down in a controlled manner than have a safety circuit kill all power without warning.

Cheers,

mnem
*Juicy*
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf