Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 1902392 times)

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Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26000 on: February 22, 2019, 07:45:00 pm »
Today's acquisition: a very clean (inside) HP 3478A to keep my 3468A company.  It was quite cheap, probably because something like a 141T fell on it and left a big dent in the top / scrunch on the bezel.  Nonetheless, the front/rear panels and chassis are flawless and it seems to work fine in all modes.  It was still cold from its trip when the picture was taken; it has settled in nicely at 10.0000 V after a bit of a warm-up on the bench.  Battery is sitting at 3.02V, though, so I may be performing open heart surgery soon.

I can beat the cover back into shape, I'm pretty sure; still contemplating what to do about the bezel.  Perhaps I can take it out and rig up a form to squeeze it back into approximate shape with a little judicious hot air applied?

Oh, the perils of getting into a conversation with the designer of a particular piece of gear, who then points out some bargain examples online...   :popcorn:

Use the angled face of a PCI slot filler (or if the area you need to work is too broad for that face, make a new 90° bend in the middle) as a form on the inside edge of the corner to apply gentle pressure while applying heat around the outside edge. Avoid touching the outside edge; anything you touch it with will leave impressions in the finish that invariably look worse than before you started (I know from hard-learned experience.... over and over. :palm:) You should probably completely remove the bezel in this case to have full control of the work.

I use a Ungar heat shrink gun for this kind of work; it gives more control. But it is easier to burn/bubble if you're careless, just as a hot air rework station can be if you set it too aggressively.

Good luck!

mnem
 :popcorn:
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 07:55:52 pm by mnementh »
 
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26001 on: February 22, 2019, 07:49:57 pm »
Certainly NOT like the old banked tracked professional Roller Derby I used to watch on TV when I was a kid. They beat the shit out of one another. And the women were worse than the men.  :o

Mnem....you lecherous old coot....welcome to my club.  :-DD

Very true.  When derby was re-started in 2004 the emphasis was on athleticism and safety.  The flat track is not only simpler and cheaper to set up, it prevents the skaters from attaining dangerously high speeds prior to contact.  Injuries do happen - it is a contact sport - but actually far more often among the adult leagues because, well, we're easier to break.  And we have strict discipline about contact, safety equipment and EMT participation at practice as well as bouts.  It does not keep them from letting out their aggression in a sanctioned manner, but most of our injuries have been from carelessness or not in derby at all.  I've participated as a volunteer for over 10 years now and can't speak highly enough of the young athletes we've fostered in that time.  It has led to me becoming involved as an official photographer and working at 2 national championships so far. 

And it keeps me from hovering on The Bay all day looking for more stuff to buy.    :-DD
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26002 on: February 22, 2019, 07:53:14 pm »

A free service, provided by the team photographer.   ;D  Derby gets all sizes and shapes, from some tiny 7-8 year olds up to adult-sized skaters.  We like the fact that it discourages bullying and eschews preferential treatment (as long as the skater can meet minimum requirements for the team).  We just like to gently remind the audience that they are kids, and that we're trying to help them become good adults by encouraging team spirit, sportsmanship and fair play.  We're very proud that people come to our league with that in mind.  Some of them become amazing athletes in the process, which is a wonderful side effect. 

Certainly NOT like the old banked tracked professional Roller Derby I used to watch on TV when I was a kid. They beat the shit out of one another. And the women were worse than the men.  :o

Mnem....you lecherous old coot....welcome to my club.  :-DD

Dude... I used to LIVE where they filmed that shit when I was growing up. Literally upstairs from one rink in Buffalo, NY for a while. You think THAT didn't have an effect on my raging-hormone-influenced development...  :scared:

mnem
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« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 08:02:50 pm by mnementh »
 

Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26003 on: February 22, 2019, 07:59:20 pm »
OK. I managed to stop pulling my hair out long enough to accomplish something. The circuitry that, in the manual, is labeled 'calibrator' is completely absent. With that little fact figured out i was able to test the voltages; -9, +76.25, -75 and +183 as opposed to -12.6, +100, -100, and +248. Welp looks like i have a project that may or may not be put as a repair thread.

Check the metal film resistors on the PSU board haven't drifted high in value or gone open circuit, I'm finding it's sometimes a problem with 60's or 70's HP test gear, I've had it in my 606B, someone I helped on here had similar problems with a 140T and someone on the UKVRR forum recently posted about it with their 141T.
And they sometimes fail without any signs of distress too.

By the way the calibrator function is not present because it was only used with the 14xx series oscilloscope plug-ins, which had probably been discontinued by the time your 141T was made.

Thanks for the 141T teardown.

I have nearly bought a couple of them recently but was scared off by the mechanical problems with the plugins and the lack of any decent pictures.

I am now thoroughly put off with the idea  :-DD

I'm going to pick up my second 141 series SA tomorrow, which is also apparently also dead, but the tracking generator that comes with it is supposed to be working. Not sure how they tested it with the non-functional display section though.

David
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26004 on: February 22, 2019, 08:01:22 pm »
Certainly NOT like the old banked tracked professional Roller Derby I used to watch on TV when I was a kid. They beat the shit out of one another. And the women were worse than the men.  :o

Mnem....you lecherous old coot....welcome to my club.  :-DD

Very true.  When derby was re-started in 2004 the emphasis was on athleticism and safety.  The flat track is not only simpler and cheaper to set up, it prevents the skaters from attaining dangerously high speeds prior to contact.  Injuries do happen - it is a contact sport - but actually far more often among the adult leagues because, well, we're easier to break.  And we have strict discipline about contact, safety equipment and EMT participation at practice as well as bouts.  It does not keep them from letting out their aggression in a sanctioned manner, but most of our injuries have been from carelessness or not in derby at all.  I've participated as a volunteer for over 10 years now and can't speak highly enough of the young athletes we've fostered in that time.  It has led to me becoming involved as an official photographer and working at 2 national championships so far. 

And it keeps me from hovering on The Bay all day looking for more stuff to buy.
   :-DD



Sir, I'll refer you to this from Page One...  :-DD

mnem
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26005 on: February 22, 2019, 08:56:45 pm »

Dude... I used to LIVE where they filmed that shit when I was growing up. Literally upstairs from one rink in Buffalo, NY for a while. You think THAT didn't have an effect on my raging-hormone-influenced development...  :scared:

mnem
To this day I love me a woman who's as tough as I am. And I married her. ;)

Mine is a world championship contending sabre fencer, so I don't dare incur the wrath; ya gotta sleep sometime.

I also have a friend (who not surprisingly does roller derby) who was locally famous a couple of years ago when she confronted a home invader with her SCA freshly-sharpened fighting sword.  With friends/relatives like these, I have to behave.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26006 on: February 22, 2019, 09:36:59 pm »
@Kosmic: What's that thing got... like 12 hours on it?   :-DD

It was in a rackmount adapter so that might explain the good shape. From the stickers it look like it's coming from lockheed martin and was last calibrated in 2017. I guess they take care of their instruments ?  :)
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26007 on: February 22, 2019, 10:44:13 pm »
Today's acquisition: a very clean (inside) HP 3478A to keep my 3468A company.  It was quite cheap, probably because something like a 141T fell on it and left a big dent in the top / scrunch on the bezel.  Nonetheless, the front/rear panels and chassis are flawless and it seems to work fine in all modes.  It was still cold from its trip when the picture was taken; it has settled in nicely at 10.0000 V after a bit of a warm-up on the bench.  Battery is sitting at 3.02V, though, so I may be performing open heart surgery soon.

I can beat the cover back into shape, I'm pretty sure; still contemplating what to do about the bezel.  Perhaps I can take it out and rig up a form to squeeze it back into approximate shape with a little judicious hot air applied?

Oh, the perils of getting into a conversation with the designer of a particular piece of gear, who then points out some bargain examples online...   :popcorn:

You can get good bargains on them, that's why I have 2.  I just changed the battery on the second one and didn't screw it up so it still passes self test.  However, the RIFA cap swap has to wait.  I ordered 1 KVDC Kermet film caps and received 250VDC caps.  I have an email to Digikey.  If I don't hear from them by Monday, there will be a phone call.
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Offline bitseeker

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26008 on: February 22, 2019, 10:50:16 pm »
The top of the bezel was deformed by the case pressing on it, and indeed it squared up a little once I eased the case off.  I have a good hot air gun with switchable temp.  I may just heat up the corner of the bezel carefully and see if it wants to relax before resorting to more forceful means.  First I have to figure out how to extract it properly though!

I look forward to hearing/seeing the outcome of your experience restoring it!
I TEA.
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26009 on: February 22, 2019, 11:33:42 pm »
Like beanflying in post #25975, I had to do a lot of cleaning and replace the leaky and dead battery packs in my HP 419A. I replaced the original batteries with packs that were designed as phone replacement batteries and they fit with little difficulty. The new batteries have been in the HP 419A for a couple of years on what was fast charge for the original smaller batteries but is trickle charge on the new larger ones.

Thanks :) I did have a brief look at getting locally made size and style matched Varta 350mA replacement packs made but circa $50x4 is a little crazy. I actually still had some brand new 1100mA 6 Cell packs from an R/C Car project I jumped straight to LiPo's with so I will re arrange them into two sticks of 10. Make up a simple 3D printed mount for them.

Also going to crank out another 1.35V reference board like I made for my 740B to replace the Mercury Cell.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2019, 11:48:01 pm by beanflying »
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26010 on: February 23, 2019, 12:00:47 am »
I look forward to hearing/seeing the outcome of your experience restoring it!
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26011 on: February 23, 2019, 12:11:43 am »
20 Hours later 56 microvolts apart and both seem to have similar Tempco drifts (1 PPM/C). Glitches are where I needed to use the 34401A for a proper job and forgot to switch it back to Hiz mode before hooking back onto the reference :palm:

Gratuitous screengrab just because  8)
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26012 on: February 23, 2019, 12:14:08 am »
I think it's fair to say that I am dead chuffed at getting both meters for a bargain price.  I find that I absolutely love the nice silent buttons and relays, and even the LCD is very readable in the lighting I have.  HP meters have a special charm - that's one reason I fought against the lure for so long.  Now they're challenging the Flukes for dominance!   :-DD

The top of the bezel was deformed by the case pressing on it, and indeed it squared up a little once I eased the case off.  I have a good hot air gun with switchable temp.  I may just heat up the corner of the bezel carefully and see if it wants to relax before resorting to more forceful means.  First I have to figure out how to extract it properly though!

Yes the 3468A and 3478A are indeed nice meters but if you should see the designer again, perhaps you could ask him why the 3468A is not just a straight forward copy of the 3478A (range wise) but in portable format, the 3478A has a far better resolution on the DC volts, for instance 10mV input reads .009985VDC on the 3468A while on the 3478A it reads 09.9850mV DC which is much more useful?  :-//

Thanks for the camera tips, I shall be getting to testing them out soon, but for now as direct comparison to the 50D, I be using it in the same fashion first and then I'll get a bit more adventurous with the custom menus. :-+   
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Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26013 on: February 23, 2019, 12:30:02 am »
Like beanflying in post #25975, I had to do a lot of cleaning and replace the leaky and dead battery packs in my HP 419A. I replaced the original batteries with packs that were designed as phone replacement batteries and they fit with little difficulty. The new batteries have been in the HP 419A for a couple of years on what was fast charge for the original smaller batteries but is trickle charge on the new larger ones.
   Thanks :) I did have a brief look at getting locally made size and style matched Varta 350mA replacement packs made but circa $50x4 is a little crazy. I actually still had some brand new 1100mA 6 Cell packs from an R/C Car project I jumped straight to LiPo's with so I will re arrange them into two sticks of 10. Make up a simple 3D printed mount for them.

Also going to crank out another 1.35V reference board like I made for my 740B to replace the Mercury Cell.

Well, one thing's for sure... you won't have to worry about it moving from where you put it with that pack installed.  :-DD

mnem
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26014 on: February 23, 2019, 01:11:49 am »
Chuck a big enough prop and motor on it and I could move it ;)

We used to play with 27 Cell Sub C 1000mAh NiCad packs (1.1kg) and strap them on to 200+km/hr airframes weighing 2.5kg. Batteries dead flat at 70 seconds runtime or even less if you were doing it right. 419A without some panels is under 3kg. Brushless motor LiPos easily 200+ 419A >:D
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26015 on: February 23, 2019, 01:19:36 am »
Chuck a big enough prop and motor on it and I could move it ;)

Nah, stick a jet engine on it  :-DD
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Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26016 on: February 23, 2019, 01:29:01 am »
1/10 & 1/8 scale AA dragsters back in the day... we ran 20-30 cell 1/2-sub C packs right at 1 - 1.4kg. Between burnouts to warm the tires and the run, 600mAH going back into the pack for approx 10 sec of runtime. 680 size motors, some of us experimenting with 3-turn drill motors wound with 12ga cut from ROMEX and hand-drawn Kynar sleeving. We used copper pennies for shunts.  :-DD Golf cart contactors were the "Speed control" of choice.

I made one of the first automated cell-cycling rigs back in the day; it would monitor 6 cells at a time connected to a serial header from a QBASIC program to break them down.

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« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 01:30:38 am by mnementh »
 

Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26017 on: February 23, 2019, 02:08:18 am »
20 Hours later 56 microvolts apart and both seem to have similar Tempco drifts (1 PPM/C). Glitches are where I needed to use the 34401A for a proper job and forgot to switch it back to Hiz mode before hooking back onto the reference :palm:

Gratuitous screengrab just because  8)

So that means either one, or both, need a calibration.....correct?
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Online beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26018 on: February 23, 2019, 02:38:18 am »
20 Hours later 56 microvolts apart and both seem to have similar Tempco drifts (1 PPM/C). Glitches are where I needed to use the 34401A for a proper job and forgot to switch it back to Hiz mode before hooking back onto the reference :palm:

Gratuitous screengrab just because  8)

So that means either one, or both, need a calibration.....correct?

What one or both of them need an 'adjustment' but only after they have been looked at with an appropriate Calibration source. If I was to 'assume' an actual voltage was exactly between the two measurements then both would in theory still be inside their 1 year spec for accuracy either side of that mid point. So it is not a disaster by any means but if both are being used on the bench and disagree by 0.006% on what seems like most common DC voltages it is less than ideal as this will compound when accurately measuring RTD's (0.6C+ error at 100C) or other precision resistors.

The 34401A was last Calibrated in 2014 and the 34461A has never been Calibrated as far as it is clean and unstickered. So getting a baseline for both is important and as the 34401A was last Calibrated by Agilent elsewhere in the world it may be possible to get an idea of long term drift of it if their unit tracking is what it claims to be (7 years of data).

The other option is to do what you have done is set your 1, 10, 100 V as from your best meter then Cal the rest from it assuming in your case the Siglent to be that source. For 95% of what I do that method would be fine but some of the monitoring stuff I am playing with needs a NATA/NIST starting point.

When the A1 & A2 get back using their calibration data I can then go through 'all' of my other gear using the pair to reduce the measured uncertainty of what they are or are not. So Reference L,C & R's, AC and DC voltage sources and references, multiple other 6.5-7.5 digit measuring gear can be tested against their own specs to that combined uncertainty. That pool can then in turn be used to sanity check each other until I then get one or both recalibrated next time around. Basically chase my own tail  ;)

Temp is back up to 28 and the differential has closed to 52 microvolts so a rough idea is both meters drift slightly with temp against a heated reference and one or both are still 'wrong' in spite of tracking each other very closely over time and temperature.

Keysights Cal lab will be my third very best clock but for how many $ I am still waiting for a quote  :o
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Offline Vgkid

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26019 on: February 23, 2019, 03:12:23 am »
bought something I always wanted , and never had a use for(and still don't...) was always going for too much.
a Keithley 260 nanovolt source , in a rather ugly shape. It passes the fluke 87-1 metrology test :)
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26020 on: February 23, 2019, 03:16:17 am »
What one or both of them need an 'adjustment' but only after they have been looked at with an appropriate Calibration source. If I was to 'assume' an actual voltage was exactly between the two measurements then both would in theory still be inside their 1 year spec for accuracy either side of that mid point. So it is not a disaster by any means but if both are being used on the bench and disagree by 0.006% on what seems like most common DC voltages it is less than ideal as this will compound when accurately measuring RTD's (0.6C+ error at 100C) or other precision resistors.

The 34401A was last Calibrated in 2014 and the 34461A has never been Calibrated as far as it is clean and unstickered. So getting a baseline for both is important and as the 34401A was last Calibrated by Agilent elsewhere in the world it may be possible to get an idea of long term drift of it if their unit tracking is what it claims to be (7 years of data).

The other option is to do what you have done is set your 1, 10, 100 V as from your best meter then Cal the rest from it assuming in your case the Siglent to be that source. For 95% of what I do that method would be fine but some of the monitoring stuff I am playing with needs a NATA/NIST starting point.

When the A1 & A2 get back using their calibration data I can then go through 'all' of my other gear using the pair to reduce the measured uncertainty of what they are or are not. So Reference L,C & R's, AC and DC voltage sources and references, multiple other 6.5-7.5 digit measuring gear can be tested against their own specs to that combined uncertainty. That pool can then in turn be used to sanity check each other until I then get one or both recalibrated next time around. Basically chase my own tail  ;)

Temp is back up to 28 and the differential has closed to 52 microvolts so a rough idea is both meters drift slightly with temp against a heated reference and one or both are still 'wrong' in spite of tracking each other very closely over time and temperature.

Keysights Cal lab will be my third very best clock but for how many $ I am still waiting for a quote  :o
Check the menu of your 34461A. There should be a last calibration date and number of times calibrated in there. Make sure to find out whether it counts from 0 or 1.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26021 on: February 23, 2019, 03:23:02 am »

Check the menu of your 34461A. There should be a last calibration date and number of times calibrated in there. Make sure to find out whether it counts from 0 or 1.

Cal String = 16Apr1423C with a count of 60. As I haven't taken it apart  :o I gather those figures are from the factory and are a put in a box date after internal testing?
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Offline GregDunn

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26022 on: February 23, 2019, 05:34:31 am »
The top of the bezel was deformed by the case pressing on it, and indeed it squared up a little once I eased the case off.  I have a good hot air gun with switchable temp.  I may just heat up the corner of the bezel carefully and see if it wants to relax before resorting to more forceful means.  First I have to figure out how to extract it properly though!

I look forward to hearing/seeing the outcome of your experience restoring it!

I have a friend who does metalwork looking into squaring up the case, so between the two of us I may be able to get this device to 95% or more of its original appearance!  Once I have something to report I'll probably make a thread for it and its sibling (which was as near perfect as any used gear I've ever bought).
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26023 on: February 23, 2019, 06:23:36 am »
Sounds great, Greg! :-DMM
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #26024 on: February 23, 2019, 08:11:16 am »
Chuck a big enough prop and motor on it and I could move it ;)

Nah, stick a jet engine on it  :-DD

At my local airfield there was an RC Me262,  the ww2 fighter with two jet engines.

The model's engines were, to my surprise,  electric fans running at 22krpm
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