Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main" 

@bd - Oh, okay...  I thought you'd bought it as used, and it arrived like that. 

[ ]

North America uses star topology in their power wiring; UK and other European countries standardized on ring topology for redundancy and load sharing. As ring topology allowed use of lighter gauge wire, it became popular... then the dumbass bean counters in manufactured housing started cutting corners and using the lighter wiring in star topology to save man-hours involved in the return loop. Now you guys have a confusing-ass mix of the two.

At about this time, wire manufacturers started experimenting with aluminum wiring, so by the 80s-90s we had whole neighborhoods burning down because the houses were wired with 14ga aluminum wire in star topology rather than 12ga copper. Once upon a time 12ga copper was THE standard over here. Period, end of discussion. Now even 14ga copper is a standard that is "in a state of flux".

Of course, those fuckers never learn... so now we're going through ANOTHER round of these bastard wire manufacturers and corporate contractors trying to pawn off "copper-clad aluminum" wiring, claiming it resolves ALL THE PROBLEMS of aluminum household wiring, which is utter BS.  An electroplate-thin coating of copper isn't going to stop 1d10ts using push-in contacts on outlets (why these have STILL not been outlawed is another story of graft and corruption that results in thousands of deaths a year) and too-small wiring for the circuit.  Even licensed electricians often don't fully understand the concepts of ampacity, voltage drop and exactly when it is necessary to bump up to the next larger gauge for a longer run, or a run that will have additional branches that are too long.

And it damn sure doesn't solve the core problem with AL wiring: The soft alloys they HAVE TO USE to make it workable are too compressible. Even when wired correctly using screw terminals, the aluminum compresses, loosening the connection all by itself. Sooner or later, this results in a burned-up connection; it's not a matter of IF, it's a matter of WHEN. Then it's just dumb luck as to whether it's close enough to something flammable (like shredded newspapers  blown in as insulation) before somebody notices the flickering and "tzzzzzt!!" and does something about it.

They don't use these alloys in mains wiring; they make allowances for how hard it is to handle. Also, when they melt down (which happens all the time) it's inside a steel box connected directly to the main breaker, so results in the main breaker tripping from the heat rather than starting a fire.

Yeah... household wiring in the US is ANOTHER safety horror show... Ahhh, the joys of deregulation. 

Then we have Larry the Cable Guy offering his unlicensed "services" on the side, and his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl doing their own wiring in their own homes "cuz 'murrica, dammitt!!! "

Electricity and dumbasses are a deadly mix. Electricity and greedy dumbass bean-counters are a recipe for nationwide disaster, which actually is happening all around us, but we're all too busy contending with the burning shit-show in DC to notice. 

[ / ]

mnem

[mnementh]

Yes, a very bright red core component:   

That was a given, my friend; which I clearly acknowledged earlier.  The discussion (well, at least the one I was involved in...  ) was over the CAUSE of that missing needle; whether it was broken off, or the movement zorched, or what have you.

I thought bd had bought it like that, but no, he just posted a  listing that amused him.

   Looking at it over my morning cuppa, I suspect this: It was gutted entirely to fix another 260 after some dumbass tried to measure lines voltage with it inadvertently set up as ohmmeter. This would explain the AC/DC/DC Rev selector upside-down, the missing zeroing pot and (most likely) missing movement also taken for said other unit. Probably they only bothered to pop the zorched switches back in as it would be very visible and suspicious if all were missing. 

Still worth $20-30 if the shell is fully intact; lots of smashed ones out there that could use a body transplant. 

mnem
 

[bd139]

Someone will probably buy it anyway, stick a fucking light bulb on top of it and sell it for £200 

[Specmaster]

Mnem, you are so right, that aluminum wiring is just pure shit, even the copper plated stuff, even though we all know that it is the actual skin of the cable that carries the current. Aluminum is just too soft and it does and will compress over time to give a poor connection and a good fire starter. As to so called electricians not understanding volt drop and the need to upsize the cables on long runs to compensate for it, I have personal experience of precisely that happening in the company that I used to work for. I went to college for 8 years to gain my skills and gained high enough qualifications to become an electrical consulting engineer and I worked for a company as a technical sales engineer that involved in preparing quotes and designing schemes for a prefabricated wiring system and control for commercial/industrial lighting installations.

After being there for 15 years, the owners decided that they ought that they should give their son a job a there and so they send him on a course of about 5 to 6 weeks to become an electrician (turns out to be a course more geared to being a PAT tester (portable appliance tester) and part P compliance which would allow him to connect up a boiler for instance if one needed to be replaced rather than call out an electrician). This son then was given an internal role which to produce the quotes that I used to prepare based upon the calculations and design work I provided to my customers to ensure that the system was designed to fit etc.

On one job in particular I had to step up from the normal 1.5mm cable to a 4mm one because of the long lengths of the cable runs along corridors and I was asked why had I specified and quoted for 4mm cable when we could only do 1.5mm, which was a lie because I had done jobs in 4mm before. Anyway I explained the reason why and was asked did I mean by volt drop and WTF was volt drop    That was enough for me as management took his side of events and then began a series of witch hunts on me so I decided that I needed to get out of that toxic environment and resigned.

[bd139]

Sounds about right. My NICEIC cert electrician is so bad he just signs off notifiable stuff I have done now 

This is the guy who brought me his Megger because a battery had leaked in it two years previously. Hadn't done a sodding test in 2 years. I cleaned it up and replaced the holder. Horrid bits of kit. The front panel sticker obscures the screws to get into it so you have to peel it off first.

[mnementh]

I don't like it. The basic idea behind the ring circuit is to allow you to use smaller gauge wiring to "share" the load in theory but in actual practice that's total bullshit.    And what if one side of the circuit goes open? Now you have potentially overloaded wiring but your circuit breaker is happier than a pig in shit.

As I recall our electrical code is very specific on wire sizes for total expected load. For example: 15A requires 14 gauge minimum. 20A requires 12 gauge minimum. This totally negates using a ring circuit with smaller gauge wiring. 

Nothing wrong with it in principle; as long as each outlet has its own fuse as intended. It's when you add dumbasses and cheapskates to the mix that you have problems; when a replacement is needed, they're going to go for the outlet that doesn't have a fuse EVERY TIME.

Remember; OUR electrical code is not EVERYBODY'S code. It is more an attempt at protecting citizens from their own overwhelming dumbassery than maintaining any real electrical safety based on physics and Ohm's Law. 

All you need to do is look at all the bathrooms where somebody has installed a regular outlet right next to a sink because wifey's POS $9 hairdryer kept tripping the GFI outlet. THAT is the entire reason WHY GFI plugs EXIST. 

mnem
"It's impossible to make anything foolproof; fools are too damned inventive."

[tggzzz]

Someone will probably buy it anyway, stick a fucking light bulb on top of it and sell it for £200 

Ooh! Good idea; thanks. That's got to be more profitable than figuring out why my blasted 465B isn't sweeping, or wondering whether the latest PPAuctions stuff has be stored under damp hessian sacking for 6 months.

I might even add a mechanical tilt switch, battery and capacitor, and glue on a few brass-coloured cog wheels.

[mnementh]

Someone will probably buy it anyway, stick a fucking light bulb on top of it and sell it for £200 

...and/or plasma globe.  If we're really lucky, maybe a nixie clock from gutted Racal counters.

mnem

[tggzzz]

Someone will probably buy it anyway, stick a fucking light bulb on top of it and sell it for £200 

...and/or plasma globe.  If we're really lucky, maybe a nixie clock from gutted Racal counters.

Shame my Solartron 7075's panaplex display "module" is far too big to fit in it.

[bd139]

Someone will probably buy it anyway, stick a fucking light bulb on top of it and sell it for £200 

Ooh! Good idea; thanks. That's got to be more profitable than figuring out why my blasted 465B isn't sweeping, or wondering whether the latest PPAuctions stuff has be stored under damp hessian sacking for 6 months.

I might even add a mechanical tilt switch, battery and capacitor, and glue on a few brass-coloured cog wheels.

I feel it is time to repost this:




As for PPauctions, I agree. I couldn't decide which 34401A to take a risk on then decided fuck it and will get one on ebay.

[tggzzz]

As for PPauctions, I agree. I couldn't decide which 34401A to take a risk on then decided fuck it and will get one on ebay.

... say someone that claims not to have any money for Kempton Park!

Maybe I'll buy a 34401 and then stick it on fleabay.  Another good idea from you

[bd139]

I decided to put fixing the fence off for a couple of months 

I have my priorities in order.

[mnementh]

Mnem, you are so right, that aluminum wiring is just pure shit, even the copper plated stuff, even though we all know that it is the actual skin of the cable that carries the current. Aluminum is just too soft and it does and will compress over time to give a poor connection and a good fire starter. As to so called electricians not understanding volt drop and the need to upsize the cables on long runs to compensate for it, I have personal experience of precisely that happening in the company that I used to work for. I went to college for 8 years to gain my skills and gained high enough qualifications to become an electrical consulting engineer and I worked for a company as a technical sales engineer that involved in preparing quotes and designing schemes for a prefabricated wiring system and control for commercial/industrial lighting installations.

After being there for 15 years, the owners decided that they ought that they should give their son a job a there and so they send him on a course of about 5 to 6 weeks to become an electrician (turns out to be a course more geared to being a PAT tester (portable appliance tester) and part P compliance which would allow him to connect up a boiler for instance if one needed to be replaced rather than call out an electrician). This son then was given an internal role which to produce the quotes that I used to prepare based upon the calculations and design work I provided to my customers to ensure that the system was designed to fit etc.

On one job in particular I had to step up from the normal 1.5mm cable to a 4mm one because of the long lengths of the cable runs along corridors and I was asked why had I specified and quoted for 4mm cable when we could only do 1.5mm, which was a lie because I had done jobs in 4mm before. Anyway I explained the reason why and was asked did I mean by volt drop and WTF was volt drop    That was enough for as management took his side of events and then began a series of witch hunts on me so I decided that I needed to get out of that toxic environment and resigned.

Eeehhh... not exactly. Electron flow in HIGH FREQUENCY AC & PULSED DC works this way; with low-frequency AC and DC electron flow still travels much deeper. That's why we still don't use fat hollow wires for high-current loads.

As to the rest of it... I experienced the same exact thing as an electrician's apprentice. That's when I decided to go to school and got my Crackerjack box Associate's in Electronic Tech & Engineering; same Vo-Tech school offered Electrical Engineering courses, but I'd already seen what a toxic clusterfuck THAT job description was camouflage for. 

To this day I'm not sure I made the right decision; that school was essentially a farm team for a local electronics manufacturer that eventually was absorbed by Raytheon. It was fun while it lasted; good pay and fast-paced project ques.

But when that job went away, I was dumped into the high-stress and utterly senseless world of Dilbert-style Corporate Engineering. We all like to think Adams was exaggerating; but the truth is, that at least IME he was being charitable, if not downright nostalgic. I did NOT last long in that world, as I still had some vestigial sense of self-worth and hadn't yet sold my soul for a parking space. 

And, in all honesty, my Engineering chops were pretty weak... probably the two are somehow related. I only got as far as I did because I had a knack for being able to "see" the circuits and keep track of a hundred of them in my head at once. This made me valuable to some people who didn't trust the portability of 100% digital design; this was intimated to me on more than one occasion. Usually just before some massive shitstorm hit the department. 

mnem
*Always "Just good enough" at something to get in the deep doo-doo*

[tautech]

Sounds about right. My NICEIC cert electrician is so bad he just signs off notifiable stuff I have done now 

Yep, for those of us that have played with electrons for years none of it is that hard.
Unlike the US we can't use Ali cables other than for external mains supply runs (big'uns) and industrial sub main runs.

A foreman linesman buddy helped me do a 3ph 320m overhead sub main down to my farm water pump, helped me in that a heap of good second hand HW mysteriously turned up  Squirrel 25mm³ overhead stranded alloy cable, steel strain wraps, bobbin insulators, cross arms, stand off insulators and galv braces, bolts, tie backs, and screw anchors.
I scored the 6 second hand concrete poles from ~15 minutes away and bolted on all the HW before drilling holes, installing the tie back screw anchors and standing them up with a 8t digger from a buddy next door.
Then came the scary bit, stringing the bloody thing........working 8m up a pole takes some getting used to ! 
Takes a good while to get used to and trust a linemans belt. 
That we didn't have an extension ladder quite long enough to get to the cross arm added another interesting dynamic with needing to add bolts into the pole cross holes every 500mm to make climbing steps to get to the top. 

When all strung he came back to do the special cable to stand off insulator wrap (4 on each cross arm) and the terminations to 16mm³ coppers, he took one look at how all the poles were perfectly aligned and cable strains ever so even and offered me a linesman job on the spot !
F that ! Once was enough !

All that for some puss 3hp motor drawing 4A/phase and designed to handle 15A with a 5% voltage drop.
Damn easy with GenCalc:
https://gencalc.software.informer.com/download/

Sometimes we nearly bite off more than we can chew.   

[mnementh]

All I can say to that is that after working as an electrician's apprentice and later doing steel erection... NEVER AGAIN.

Kindof crazy for a guy with dreams of flying, I know. Maybe that's why I got into RC FPV...

mnem
No, the irony is not lost on me.

[med6753]

Mnem, you are so right, that aluminum wiring is just pure shit, even the copper plated stuff, even though we all know that it is the actual skin of the cable that carries the current. Aluminum is just too soft and it does and will compress over time to give a poor connection and a good fire starter. As to so called electricians not understanding volt drop and the need to upsize the cables on long runs to compensate for it, I have personal experience of precisely that happening in the company that I used to work for. I went to college for 8 years to gain my skills and gained high enough qualifications to become an electrical consulting engineer and I worked for a company as a technical sales engineer that involved in preparing quotes and designing schemes for a prefabricated wiring system and control for commercial/industrial lighting installations.

After being there for 15 years, the owners decided that they ought that they should give their son a job a there and so they send him on a course of about 5 to 6 weeks to become an electrician (turns out to be a course more geared to being a PAT tester (portable appliance tester) and part P compliance which would allow him to connect up a boiler for instance if one needed to be replaced rather than call out an electrician). This son then was given an internal role which to produce the quotes that I used to prepare based upon the calculations and design work I provided to my customers to ensure that the system was designed to fit etc.

On one job in particular I had to step up from the normal 1.5mm cable to a 4mm one because of the long lengths of the cable runs along corridors and I was asked why had I specified and quoted for 4mm cable when we could only do 1.5mm, which was a lie because I had done jobs in 4mm before. Anyway I explained the reason why and was asked did I mean by volt drop and WTF was volt drop    That was enough for as management took his side of events and then began a series of witch hunts on me so I decided that I needed to get out of that toxic environment and resigned.

Eeehhh... not exactly. Electron flow in HIGH FREQUENCY AC & PULSED DC works this way; with low-frequency AC and DC electron flow still travels much deeper. That's why we still don't use fat hollow wires for high-current loads.

As to the rest of it... I experienced the same exact thing as an electrician's apprentice. That's when I decided to go to school and got my Crackerjack box Associate's in Electronic Tech & Engineering; same Vo-Tech school offered Electrical Engineering courses, but I'd already seen what a toxic clusterfuck THAT job description was camouflage for. 

To this day I'm not sure I made the right decision; that school was essentially a farm team for a local electronics manufacturer that eventually was absorbed by Raytheon. It was fun while it lasted; good pay and fast-paced project ques.

But when that job went away, I was dumped into the high-stress and utterly senseless world of Dilbert-style Corporate Engineering. We all like to think Adams was exaggerating; but the truth is, that at least IME he was being charitable, if not downright nostalgic. I did NOT last long in that world, as I still had some vestigial sense of self-worth and hadn't yet sold my soul for a parking space. 

And, in all honesty, my Engineering chops were pretty weak... probably the two are somehow related. I only got as far as I did because I had a knack for being able to "see" the circuits and keep track of hundred of them in my head at once. This made me valuable to some people who didn't trust the portability of 100% digital design; this was intimated to me on more than one occasion. Usually just before some massive shitstorm hit the department. 

mnem
*Always "Just good enough" at something to get in the deep doo-doo*

2 principles whenever I do wiring. One, copper ONLY. No copper clad and certainly no AU. Two, proper screw terminals with the correct loop in the proper direction and tightened and checked. None of that "push-in" crap. I've seen them fail open completely and I've also seen them develop contact resistance and the wire starts to char. Only lazy asses use them and Mnem, you are right, push in terminals should be banned.

And while I tend to agree that 12 gauge probably should also be used in 15A circuits I have no issue with 14 gauge COPPER as long as the 2 above conditions are met.

[tautech]

All I can say to that is that after working as an electrician's apprentice and later doing steel erection... NEVER AGAIN.

Kindof crazy for a guy with dreams of flying, I know. Maybe that's why I got into RC FPV...

mnem
No, the irony is not lost on me.

Never have I been afraid of falling................only the sudden stop at the bottom ! 

[worsthorse]

It’s knackered either way. Seller is selling as “used” so if anyone bids its going to end up in a refund.

Also on UK mains: I don’t have a ring main. Most modern builds and rewiring goes to spurs and breakers.

Please explain "ring main" 

@bd - Oh, okay...  I thought you'd bought it as used, and it arrived like that. 

[ ]

North America uses star topology in their power wiring; UK and other European countries standardized on ring topology for redundancy and load sharing. As ring topology allowed use of lighter gauge wire, it became popular... then the dumbass bean counters in manufactured housing started cutting corners and using the lighter wiring in star topology to save man-hours involved in the return loop. Now you guys have a confusing-ass mix of the two.

Yeah... household wiring in the US is ANOTHER safety horror show... Ahhh, the joys of deregulation. 

Then we have Larry the Cable Guy offering his unlicensed "services" on the side, and his brother Darryl and his other brother Darryl doing their own wiring in their own homes "cuz 'murrica, dammitt!!! "

Electricity and dumbasses are a deadly mix. Electricity and greedy dumbass bean-counters are a recipe for nationwide disaster, which actually is happening all around us, but we're all too busy contending with the burning shit-show in DC to notice. 

[ / ]

mnem

Don't get me started. Okay, you got me started already...

When I did a complete rewire of the house, I had to specify everything, down to the wire, that the electrician used or he automatically picked the cheapest shit possible while charging brand name prices. Even then, he tried to sub "equivalent" crap for the equipment I spec'd.  I started doing an end-of-day walkthrough after catching him in the act the first time. After I made him pull out and redo a portion of the wiring, he got the message, mostly.  Not that that ended my daily inspections. 

Meanwhile, in Rochester NY helping my parents. Of course I checked CL and of course there's an Triplett 630NA and a Sencore FET tester that I may go buy and ship home.   

[Specmaster]

Someone will probably buy it anyway, stick a fucking light bulb on top of it and sell it for £200 

Ooh! Good idea; thanks. That's got to be more profitable than figuring out why my blasted 465B isn't sweeping, or wondering whether the latest PPAuctions stuff has be stored under damp hessian sacking for 6 months.

I might even add a mechanical tilt switch, battery and capacitor, and glue on a few brass-coloured cog wheels.

I feel it is time to repost this:




As for PPauctions, I agree. I couldn't decide which 34401A to take a risk on then decided fuck it and will get one on ebay.

Yep, The very first Heathkit VTVM I purchased that was dead as dodo, the seller thought that he listed it as not working but thought I was going to turn it into a desk lamp, refunded my money and did it himself in the end 

As to PPauctions, yeh, good luck getting one on eBay, I've been looking for for one for months now, working ones are all northwards of £200 
I still have my beady eye on a few things in their sale after the last auction of theirs I got involved in turned out satisfactory its worth the risk but only if they sell at the right price.

[Specmaster]

All I can say to that is that after working as an electrician's apprentice and later doing steel erection... NEVER AGAIN.

Kindof crazy for a guy with dreams of flying, I know. Maybe that's why I got into RC FPV...

mnem
No, the irony is not lost on me.

Never have I been afraid of falling................only the sudden stop at the bottom ! 

Yes, that bit does tend to hurt a bit 

[mnementh]

NOT FOR LONG.

mnem
*Juicy*

[mnementh]

https://youtu.be/Qs0Y8xYyrCY

@wch: 

mnem
*off to the dentist*

[Specmaster]

NOT FOR LONG.

mnem
*Juicy*

Thats only true if you fall for a short distance or a long one of course 

[tggzzz]

Never have I been afraid of falling................only the sudden stop at the bottom ! 

I've been queasy at the realisation I was going to fall the next day.

On the day the first 5 seconds were interesting, but the remainder were like a slow video game.

[bd139]

Yep, The very first Heathkit VTVM I purchased that was dead as dodo, the seller thought that he listed it as not working but thought I was going to turn it into a desk lamp, refunded my money and did it himself in the end 

That person should be shot!

As to PPauctions, yeh, good luck getting one on eBay, I've been looking for for one for months now, working ones are all northwards of £200 
I still have my beady eye on a few things in their sale after the last auction of theirs I got involved in turned out satisfactory its worth the risk but only if they sell at the right price.

Yeah I'm expecting to pay a reasonable amount of cash for it. Keysight only just stopped selling them a few months ago at £1000+VAT. With voltnuttery you have to pay to play unfortunately