Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 1617933 times)

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Online 0culus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29875 on: April 22, 2019, 06:25:41 am »


A legend replacing a failed tant in a Tek 465B  :-+
 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29876 on: April 22, 2019, 06:35:54 am »
And notice that he did it from the TOP side of the board.  :-+ ;D
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29877 on: April 22, 2019, 06:49:03 am »
And notice that he did it from the TOP side of the board.  :-+ ;D

Like a boss!  :-+

Using my 7904A has made me realize how much I was depending on even the limited automation on the 2465B. It's quite fun, actually. Sometimes have to sit and think about how to do something that the software interface of the 2465B sort of handles for you (such as setting up for a risetime measurement using the graticule).  :-DD [edit] the 2465B seems to do something to keep the rising edge on the screen as you speed up the timebase. Have to find it again manually on the 7904A.

Next thing to do is find some time to do the compensation adjustments on the 7A26 amplifier.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 06:51:17 am by 0culus »
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29878 on: April 22, 2019, 07:10:41 am »

In other Nixie news, I picked up a Keithley 160 today. Here it is (middle instrument) measuring 10V out from an HP 6114A precision power supply. My Keysight U1282A reports the output as 10.009V. Nothing's been warmed up in advance. I just turned it on to see it all run, but it hasn't changed since it was cold about 20 minutes ago. Good stuff. Just needs a little adjustment.

Nice! The Keithley appears somewhat red on the photo. There's no need for it to feel embarrassed that I can see, though. ;)

Haha, yeah, the Keithley is wearing (dark) rose-colored glasses. It's definitely red compared to the Fluke 8100A.
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29879 on: April 22, 2019, 08:13:56 am »
The only good thing about this revolving date pagan event is the reduced guilt of buying and eating Chocolate  ;D

I think "jittery" is better than "revolving".

Somebody should do an Allen plot of Oestre's frequency :)
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29880 on: April 22, 2019, 09:14:38 am »
Jittery indeed. I have nightmares about RFC 5545 recurrence section  :scared:

Well has an interesting morning here. Got up, slipped over on some pens my youngest left in the middle of the living room carpet and spent a chunk of it in hospital. Sprained elbow. Fun. Not  :--

A tribute to the NHS and London here. If you’re going to fuck yourself up, do it on a bank holiday. 7 minutes there on the bus, Took 5 minutes to triage, 5 minutes to X-ray then 20 minutes to see consultant. 15 minutes home on bus via pharmacy to get some naproxen. Bingo. Total cost < $15 in dollarydoos.
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29881 on: April 22, 2019, 09:34:58 am »
Jittery indeed. I have nightmares about RFC 5545 recurrence section  :scared:

What's particularly bad about recurrence, compared with all the other messes associated with dates and times?

I've had occasion to drum into people just how awkward date and time are. Start with the easy questions like "how many hours are there in a day?", and proceed to more obscure questions.

Quote
Well has an interesting morning here. Got up, slipped over on some pens my youngest left in the middle of the living room carpet and spent a chunk of it in hospital. Sprained elbow. Fun. Not  :--

A tribute to the NHS and London here. If you’re going to fuck yourself up, do it on a bank holiday. 7 minutes there on the bus, Took 5 minutes to triage, 5 minutes to X-ray then 20 minutes to see consultant. 15 minutes home on bus via pharmacy to get some naproxen. Bingo. Total cost < $15 in dollarydoos.

Ouch. Daughter broke her elbow like that (avulsive fracture).

I've still got some naproxen from a a few years ago. I expect it is out of date, but it is comforting to have it in the "store cupboard" along with all the other items that might become difficult to obtain.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29882 on: April 22, 2019, 09:48:24 am »
Jittery indeed. I have nightmares about RFC 5545 recurrence section  :scared:

Well has an interesting morning here. Got up, slipped over on some pens my youngest left in the middle of the living room carpet and spent a chunk of it in hospital. Sprained elbow. Fun. Not  :--

A tribute to the NHS and London here. If you’re going to fuck yourself up, do it on a bank holiday. 7 minutes there on the bus, Took 5 minutes to triage, 5 minutes to X-ray then 20 minutes to see consultant. 15 minutes home on bus via pharmacy to get some naproxen. Bingo. Total cost < $15 in dollarydoos.

Ouchy no heavy Tea for you for a bit  :o

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29883 on: April 22, 2019, 10:24:49 am »
Jittery indeed. I have nightmares about RFC 5545 recurrence section  :scared:

What's particularly bad about recurrence, compared with all the other messes associated with dates and times?

I've had occasion to drum into people just how awkward date and time are. Start with the easy questions like "how many hours are there in a day?", and proceed to more obscure questions.

Recurrence is a nasty one. Here's a real world anecdote.

It forces the question of "how do you store it" which turns out to be very difficult if you are a typical CRUD programmer (99% of them). The naive SQL-obsessed person takes the RFC and implements a piece of code which writes each occurrence of the event to a table. That is until a client comes along and accidentally adds one event every hour until the year 2150. This all happens in a nice little for loop, IOPS go through the roof and the operations team go purple. The next naive manager comes along and adds a restriction which shoots the clients down who legitimately have an appointment every week for the next two years by saying that they can't schedule more than a year ahead. Clients go purple. Then someone decides it's a fantastic idea to add attachments to this and subcontracts this out to the lowest bidding outsourcer who decides a chunk of it needs futzing around. About 3 months later, the operations team suddenly go purple again as all the CPUs on all the nodes are rammed at 100%. Well it turns out that a DST change and a poor understanding of time zones meant that all events an hour long had collapsed to 0 minutes and kicked off infinite loops on every node causing thread pool starvation and total platform outage and some steaming crashdumps and purple customers.

This is when I usually get dragged in to work out what the fuck has gone on. Stage one, discover that the start event is stored in UTC and the end of the event is stored in local time. Wowsers. Unravelled that one in a couple of hours. Stage two, add some circuit breakers and unit tests to cover the infinitely loop condition. Stage three, design a sparse storage model which (a) abstracts the entire RFC 5545 model (b) scales to 20,000 concurrent users (c) has no arbitrary event recurrence limitations (d) works across different timezones (e) can be slid into the existing fucked up mess of spaghetti written by the outsourcers. Then obtain a suitably sized LART and educate everyone involved while navigating politicians, bringing down a whole chain of CYA and generally Hulk smashing everything into oblivion in the way of it.

Horribly complex due to humans of course.

The solution was to use sparse spans. All events are a "series" which are stored with appropriate start and end dates. When you peek into a time span by specifying a date range, the only useful constraint in the system, you pull all the events in the series down which are present in that time span then construct the real events on the fly outside of the database black box. Events don't have to exist as a concrete corporeal row in a table, only the notion of when they may exist. This is difficult for most people to process apparently  :-// ... I was nearly burned at the stake!

Quote
Well has an interesting morning here. Got up, slipped over on some pens my youngest left in the middle of the living room carpet and spent a chunk of it in hospital. Sprained elbow. Fun. Not  :--

A tribute to the NHS and London here. If you’re going to fuck yourself up, do it on a bank holiday. 7 minutes there on the bus, Took 5 minutes to triage, 5 minutes to X-ray then 20 minutes to see consultant. 15 minutes home on bus via pharmacy to get some naproxen. Bingo. Total cost < $15 in dollarydoos.

Ouch. Daughter broke her elbow like that (avulsive fracture).

I've still got some naproxen from a a few years ago. I expect it is out of date, but it is comforting to have it in the "store cupboard" along with all the other items that might become difficult to obtain.

Yeah I sympathise with her. I did my other arm about 15 years ago (cycling). Glad it wasn't fractured this time!

Naproxen is good stuff. Had that when I broke my ankle years ago. I've got a nice stash of prescription meds as well. They hand them out willy nilly here which is handy and we tend not to take them. SWMNLBO is diabetic so is prescription fee exempt as well which is handy.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2019, 10:32:52 am by bd139 »
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29884 on: April 22, 2019, 10:26:59 am »
Ouchy no heavy Tea for you for a bit  :o

This is actually the largest concern for me at the current time believe it or not :-DD
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29885 on: April 22, 2019, 10:40:09 am »
Jittery indeed. I have nightmares about RFC 5545 recurrence section  :scared:

What's particularly bad about recurrence, compared with all the other messes associated with dates and times?

I've had occasion to drum into people just how awkward date and time are. Start with the easy questions like "how many hours are there in a day?", and proceed to more obscure questions.

Recurrence is a nasty one. Here's a real world anecdote.

It forces the question of "how do you store it" which turns out to be very difficult if you are a typical CRUD programmer (99% of them). The naive SQL-obsessed person takes the RFC and implements a piece of code which writes each occurrence of the event to a table. That is until a client comes along and accidentally adds one event every hour until the year 2150. This all happens in a nice little for loop, IOPS go through the roof and the operations team go purple. The next naive manager comes along and adds a restriction which shoots the clients down who legitimately have an appointment every week for the next two years by saying that they can't schedule more than a year ahead. Clients go purple. Then someone decides it's a fantastic idea to add attachments to this and subcontracts this out to the lowest bidding outsourcer who decides a chunk of it needs futzing around. About 3 months later, the operations team suddenly go purple again as all the CPUs on all the nodes are rammed at 100%. Well it turns out that a DST change and a poor understanding of time zones meant that all events an hour long had collapsed to 0 minutes and kicked off infinite loops on every node causing thread pool starvation and total platform outage and some steaming crashdumps and purple customers.

This is when I usually get dragged in to work out what the fuck has gone on. Stage one, discover that the start event is stored in UTC and the end of the event is stored in local time. Wowsers. Unravelled that one in a couple of hours. Stage two, add some circuit breakers and unit tests to cover the infinitely loop condition. Stage three, design a sparse storage model which (a) abstracts the entire RFC 5545 model (b) scales to 20,000 concurrent users (c) has no arbitrary event recurrence limitations (d) works across different timezones (e) can be slid into the existing fucked up mess of spaghetti written by the outsourcers. Then obtain a suitably sized LART and educate everyone involved while navigating politicians, bringing down a whole chain of CYA and generally Hulk smashing everything into oblivion in the way of it.

Horribly complex due to humans of course.

So the usual "there's 24 hours in a day" plus the inability to distinguish between a time (instant) and a duration.

So the usual scalability issues that aren't noticed by XP TDD, a.k.a. it is working because the build system's test light is green. (That's the tenuous connection to TEA, right there)

No doubt exacerbated by the HR-droids belief that 35 year old people are "past sell by date", and that experience with language X is irrelevant because they are using Y, and the "never mind the quality, feel the width" bean counting. Not to forget that "overseas programmers cost 1/3 as much, so we'll simply employ 3 times as many". Mythical man month? What's that.

I feel an attack of woodpeckers is coming, with IoT being the soft underbelly.

Nothing new there; I read Isaac Asimov's "The Star Mangled Spanner" when I was a kid.
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29886 on: April 22, 2019, 10:43:37 am »
Totally agree. TDD is easy to subvert though:

Code: [Select]
[Test]
public void TestDoesBD139ThinkThisIsGoodEnoughToRelease()
{
    Assert.Fail("Hell no");
}
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29887 on: April 22, 2019, 10:49:57 am »
Totally agree. TDD is easy to subvert though:

Code: [Select]
[Test]
public void TestDoesBD139ThinkThisIsGoodEnoughToRelease()
{
    Assert.Fail("Hell no");
}

Or, more subtly, have tests that cannot fail. Or code which, in many places, simply catches and swallows occasional exceptions without finding their source.

Yup, I've seen that in fintech produced by UK developers. Nobody cared, even when it was pointed out to them.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29888 on: April 22, 2019, 10:49:59 am »
And notice that he did it from the TOP side of the board.  :-+ ;D
Yep, I was going to point out that he did that, why not as long as you can be certain that the solder on the other side doesn't bridge or form loose solder balls?

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29889 on: April 22, 2019, 10:57:09 am »
Or, more subtly, have tests that cannot fail. Or code which, in many places, simply catches and swallows occasional exceptions without finding their source.

Yup, I've seen that in fintech produced by UK developers. Nobody cared, even when it was pointed out to them.

Yes that's been my life for the last 15 years. Apathy, ignorance and even worse "risk acceptance culture" will ruin us all eventually.

At the end of the day I am cynical to the point of sensibility. My objective is to funnel cash into bricks, mortar, test gear, life experiences and concrete insurance against the idiocy of the other humans on the planet :)
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29890 on: April 22, 2019, 10:59:06 am »
Jittery indeed. I have nightmares about RFC 5545 recurrence section  :scared:

Well has an interesting morning here. Got up, slipped over on some pens my youngest left in the middle of the living room carpet and spent a chunk of it in hospital. Sprained elbow. Fun. Not  :--

A tribute to the NHS and London here. If you’re going to fuck yourself up, do it on a bank holiday. 7 minutes there on the bus, Took 5 minutes to triage, 5 minutes to X-ray then 20 minutes to see consultant. 15 minutes home on bus via pharmacy to get some naproxen. Bingo. Total cost < $15 in dollarydoos.
That's going to prevent a of TEA activity for a while, light duties only. Make your son do the heavy lifting if there is any, karma for him

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29891 on: April 22, 2019, 11:04:19 am »
Indeed. No sons. Three girls. Oldest two are going shopping today. Joy to teenagers. Zap them some cash and it's sorted.  :-DD
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29892 on: April 22, 2019, 11:11:55 am »
Indeed. No sons. Three girls. Oldest two are going shopping today. Joy to teenagers. Zap them some cash and it's sorted.  :-DD
Change son for daughter, same karma rules apply

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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29893 on: April 22, 2019, 11:14:24 am »
Indeed. No sons. Three girls. Oldest two are going shopping today. Joy to teenagers. Zap them some cash and it's sorted.  :-DD

That depends on what they spend the cash on :(

I was lucky: at 14 my daughter and friends were just discovering local regional shopping centres and thinking they were fun. Well, OK - but there is more to life than that.

Fortunately I decided that my 50th was coming up and I really ought to go gliding - so we learned together. Great fun, she wanted to do things with me for longer than would have been the case, and the non-flying experiences were wonderful for her CV. Winner all round.

But she still thinks my test equipment is worthless, and makes the point that "if people like you are buying stuff from your youth, what will be the resale value when you all want/need to downsize?". Difficult to counter that, especially since the "downsizing" is the diplomatic scenario!
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Having fun doing more, with less
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29894 on: April 22, 2019, 11:22:48 am »
And notice that he did it from the TOP side of the board.  :-+ ;D
Yep, I was going to point out that he did that, why not as long as you can be certain that the solder on the other side doesn't bridge or form loose solder balls?

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Yep, that is SOP for me when I did tant changes on 465/475.
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29895 on: April 22, 2019, 11:25:03 am »
And notice that he did it from the TOP side of the board.  :-+ ;D
Yep, I was going to point out that he did that, why not as long as you can be certain that the solder on the other side doesn't bridge or form loose solder balls?

Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk

Yep, that is SOP for me when I did tant changes on 465/475.
Sop?

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29896 on: April 22, 2019, 11:41:41 am »
Good grief HP Nixie counters are still fetching big money. HP 5221B closed at $101.50 plus shipping. :o

You can't complain too much, you do have a much better chance of finding those counters than we have over here.  :(

This is the only HP Nixie one on ePay UK at the moment, but unfortunately the price has the decimal point in the wrong place.  :palm:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183533749997

David
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29897 on: April 22, 2019, 12:08:26 pm »
Good grief HP Nixie counters are still fetching big money. HP 5221B closed at $101.50 plus shipping. :o

You can't complain too much, you do have a much better chance of finding those counters than we have over here.  :(

This is the only HP Nixie one on ePay UK at the moment, but unfortunately the price has the decimal point in the wrong place.  :palm:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183533749997

David

What? "For parts or not working?"
This has got to be a joke.
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29898 on: April 22, 2019, 12:13:54 pm »
Indeed. No sons. Three girls. Oldest two are going shopping today. Joy to teenagers. Zap them some cash and it's sorted.  :-DD

That depends on what they spend the cash on :(

I was lucky: at 14 my daughter and friends were just discovering local regional shopping centres and thinking they were fun. Well, OK - but there is more to life than that.

They're all quite sensible now, well mine are anyway; I can't speak for other people's children. Certainly better than my generation. Shopping isn't seen as a productive activity now because money is better spent on other things now that the Internet has shown how much things really can not cost. I expect it's probably different outside London as well. Also conspicuous consumption appears to have declined finally!

Fortunately I decided that my 50th was coming up and I really ought to go gliding - so we learned together. Great fun, she wanted to do things with me for longer than would have been the case, and the non-flying experiences were wonderful for her CV. Winner all round.

I would love to go and do something like that. We did abseiling the last time. That form of controlled falling was cheaper :-DD. I may revisit PPL as well. Prices for renting a Cessna out for the day and the tuition are starting to look more affordable once the mortgage is gone. That would make a good family activity too.

But she still thinks my test equipment is worthless, and makes the point that "if people like you are buying stuff from your youth, what will be the resale value when you all want/need to downsize?". Difficult to counter that, especially since the "downsizing" is the diplomatic scenario!

Yes this is an interesting point. I've got a little spreadsheet which shows current assets and value of each. They know where that is if I get squished or pack in irreparably. Safely to say none of you lot are getting an ebay bargain out of the bits because they know what they are worth!

Downsizing is an interesting concept. I align with it philosophically but I appear to be incapable of doing it effectively. I'm a pragmatist and mostly buy stuff I need rather than because I like it (the two mostly overlap fortunately!). To complete a named task there is a minimum subset of equipment required. To complete all named tasks, that's quite a lot of equipment. Not sure what tasks I need to complete, yet, therefore I tend to buy the larger subset of equipment just in case. This, when combined with all the stuff I'm bouncing on ebay to pay for the stuff I need, has a significant mental and space burden. As a particularly OCD person, the clutter gets to me and then I have a grand clear out. Then I miss it or realise I've sold something I needed and suffer regrets and buy it again. I'm sure they do pills to fix this. Alternatively a larger house. And then there's the infinite loop of TEA ownership disorder for me at least.

Good grief HP Nixie counters are still fetching big money. HP 5221B closed at $101.50 plus shipping. :o

You can't complain too much, you do have a much better chance of finding those counters than we have over here.  :(

This is the only HP Nixie one on ePay UK at the moment, but unfortunately the price has the decimal point in the wrong place.  :palm:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/183533749997

David

What? "For parts or not working?"
This has got to be a joke.

I'm considering putting a £15 offer on it  :-DD
 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #29899 on: April 22, 2019, 01:44:59 pm »
They're all quite sensible now, well mine are anyway; I can't speak for other people's children. Certainly better than my generation. Shopping isn't seen as a productive activity now because money is better spent on other things now that the Internet has shown how much things really can not cost. I expect it's probably different outside London as well. Also conspicuous consumption appears to have declined finally!

Yes, all those points are interesting, and positive. The negative factor is that Generation Rent has to move stuff frequently.

Quote
Fortunately I decided that my 50th was coming up and I really ought to go gliding - so we learned together. Great fun, she wanted to do things with me for longer than would have been the case, and the non-flying experiences were wonderful for her CV. Winner all round.

I would love to go and do something like that. We did abseiling the last time. That form of controlled falling was cheaper :-DD. I may revisit PPL as well. Prices for renting a Cessna out for the day and the tuition are starting to look more affordable once the mortgage is gone. That would make a good family activity too.

Yes, but the falling lasts much longer with gliding. Cessnas are boring[1][2], like being in an especially noisy car - and bloody expensive. Gliding is more entertaining: 0-50mph in 5s, climb with your feet higher than your head, pull 3Gs in a turn and feel your jowls creep downwards, fly in loose formation with other aircraft, and then there are the aerobatic manouevres you need to be adept at before going solo. Build your own rollercoaster in the sky! And it is much less expensive, ~£35/hour including tuition :)

Daughter also did climbing as part of her DofE, and enjoyed it. I enjoyed a two week hike on the Klettersteige / Via Ferrata in the Dolomites a few decades ago. With zero tuition, I climbed this:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@46.5398887,11.8276568,3a,75y,253.91h,134.13t/data=!3m8!1e1!3m6!1sAF1QipO9Sv_21BTbfyKm2ImCwfnk76_P8RcBjEpOJMqs!2e10!3e11!6shttps:%2F%2Flh5.googleusercontent.com%2Fp%2FAF1QipO9Sv_21BTbfyKm2ImCwfnk76_P8RcBjEpOJMqs%3Dw203-h100-k-no-pi-0-ya140.07956-ro-0-fo100!7i8192!8i4096

[1] When glider pilots transition to power flying, they have two problems: remembering they can fly straight and level, and finding a way to stop falling asleep when they do so.
[2] While I've taken off 7 times in a light aircraft, I've only managed to land in one once.

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I'm considering putting a £15 offer on it  :-DD

I bid £14.00, hoping they'll miss the decimal point :) (They probably won't since P&P is free :) ) There's another offer outstanding.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 


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