Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 3677447 times)

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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70400 on: September 25, 2020, 07:55:20 pm »

A free tech tip if you're ever working on the carb on one of these small 2-cycle motors: Once you put it all back together (note that the longer adjustment needle is usually the LO side), turn both adjuster screws all the way in until they bottom out, then back the LO one out 1 3/8 turns, and the HI one 1 7/8 turns. Prime, choke, etc per directions (some models have a half-choke position while some will automatically unchoke as soon as you crack the throttle open), then run the thing for a few minutes by feathering the throttle as needed to warm it up. NOW, adjust the HI by holding the trigger at WOT and cranking the HI screw out til the burn starts to clear up, then starts to break up, then crank it in until it starts to break up again. Set the HI screw halfway between the two points.

Now the LO screw: 9 times out of 10, you don't need to adjust this at all from 1 3/8 turns; first set the idle SPEED screw so it keeps running, then crank it out until it starts to buck/labor. Now turn the idle speed in (higher rpm) again until it smooths out, plus half a turn.

At this point, if the engine is warm, you should be able to hit the throttle and it'll ramp up quickly. If it bogs, open the LO screw a hair... like 1/16 turn at a time... until it ramps up like it should. Now a final check of the HI screw at WOT again; it may need 1/16 or so either way to clear up, but usually will be right on here too, and should idle down without dying. If it dies, adjust the idle SPEED up a hair, checking for bogging vs dying as it comes down from WOT.

If your engine doesn't behave like this, almost without a doubt you've missed something while cleaning, or if it is old enough, the primary diaphragm has gotten stiff and a proper rebuild with kit is necessary. But note: both of these machines are 12 years old, came from a snow-belt climate, and were still easily restored with just new fuel lines/filters and a proper cleaning. :-+


Now go burn some 2-cycles!!!


mnem
 :popcorn:
While those tips are correct for those with experience tuning small 2 stroke engines they shouldn't be attempted without a rev counter AND the manufacturers WOT max rpm spec.
Many small engines will tune happily a few 1000rpm past their max spec however it limits their life drastically.
When I was on the tools and very familiar with many small motors I would tune 'by ear' and consistently get within a few 100 rpm of spec but not now as 'the ear' is now well out of calibration.  ;)

Most of us have a suitable RPM counter on our bench.....a DSO and with a probes reference lead clipped to the grabber makes for a fine near field ignition pickup and a little maths gives us a frequency to tune to with the Hi screw.
Eg. 12000rpm/60 = 200 Hz.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
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Online Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70401 on: September 25, 2020, 07:58:18 pm »
The only explanations I have are: do not care, lazyness, dumbness in no particular order or amount.

The perpetual underestimation of the ability of parcelmonkeys to abuse your package? There does not seem to be a level of protection that shields a device from **all** possible abuse, with the possibe exception of bags of foam that set around it with 10cm of padding on all sides.

I propose explosive reactive armour for parcels.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70402 on: September 25, 2020, 08:02:07 pm »
The only explanations I have are: do not care, lazyness, dumbness in no particular order or amount.

The perpetual underestimation of the ability of parcelmonkeys to abuse your package? There does not seem to be a level of protection that shields a device from **all** possible abuse, with the possible exception of bags of foam that set around it with 10cm of padding on all sides.

      

Double-wall carton with Foam-in-place packing = Thermonuclear protection. Yes it adds $8-12 to shipping costs for a typical boat anchor. But it ensures you get the busted-ass piece of TE you PAID FOR, not the crumbled remains thereof.  ;)

You can duplicate this at home with large shopping or garbage bags and Great Stuff foam insulation; I did so for a  Holley Carburetor I sold on fleaBay years ago that was going to Baja. I put one large Wally World bag in the bottom of the box, half-full of foam, then placed the carb already wrapped in bubble-wrap on top so the foam squished up around the sides (but still inside the bag). Then another bag on top similarly half-filled with Great Stuff. Then I pressed the pad-baggie flat and closed the box with a heavy brick on top; then let it sit an hour and checked for unprotected areas on the sides. It was all foam-ily, so I sealed the box & shipped it.

Great Stuff will usually keep expanding until it sets up; sometimes as long as 15-30 minutes or longer.

mnem
moo.
« Last Edit: September 25, 2020, 08:10:43 pm by mnementh »
 

Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70403 on: September 25, 2020, 08:05:09 pm »
   Also, think I'm going to jump off a bridge now. The E4402B doesn't look better. And that's putting it mildly.

Before you do anything rash... have you tried a different patch cable? Something known 50-ohm with N-connector one end and BNC the other, no adapters? Preferably known sweep-tested to 10-12GHz...?

When you get up into these frequencies... a hinky cable or adapter can hose you big time.

Good luck my friend!

mnem
 :popcorn:

Yup. First thing I tried. Note, by the way, that the "noise floor" (hah!) Sits at 50dBm. Plus, not minus. That would be some trick for a knackered patch cable  :'(

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70404 on: September 25, 2020, 08:14:32 pm »
I've seen stranger stuff. For free in my breakfast cereal.  ;)

So figuring a frontend amp/atten fault maybe? Still gonna be a lot of assache, especially getting things cal'd at the end of the process.  :palm:

mnem
 :popcorn:
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70405 on: September 25, 2020, 08:17:36 pm »
The only explanations I have are: do not care, lazyness, dumbness in no particular order or amount.

The perpetual underestimation of the ability of parcelmonkeys to abuse your package? There does not seem to be a level of protection that shields a device from **all** possible abuse, with the possibe exception of bags of foam that set around it with 10cm of padding on all sides.

I propose explosive reactive armour for parcels.

I propose Explosive Runes... pretty much anywhere. For any reason you see fit.  >:D

mnem
beum.
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70406 on: September 25, 2020, 08:34:03 pm »
I've seen stranger stuff. For free in my breakfast cereal.  ;)

So figuring a frontend amp/atten fault maybe? Still gonna be a lot of assache, especially getting things cal'd at the end of the process.  :palm:

mnem
 :popcorn:

SOLD AS SEEN BARN FIND  :-DD

Playing test gear spotting on Stargate this evening. So far a couple of HP 180 scopes and a 5328A.

Also my new SDG is off frequency by 17Hz at 10MHz. I bet that can’t be cal’ed out.
 
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Online Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70407 on: September 25, 2020, 08:41:12 pm »
You can duplicate this at home with large shopping or garbage bags and Great Stuff foam insulation;

That being a local trade name I don't know if you're talking about one of the one part foams in a can, or two part foam.

The one part foams in a can be very variable in performance. They rely on atmospheric moisture to cure them, and if you're building up great wads of foam it can be too thick to cure as quickly as you'd like, or at all if you're really unlucky. I've had very hit and miss results using them in the way you describe.

Two part foam is much much better, it actively expands from a liquid to a foam as it reacts and cures quickly, sometimes a little too quickly. The drawback with two part foam is that (1) it can get very messy if you're not careful, (2) if you're over enthusiastic about how much to use it can try and burst out of the box, (3) the free iso-cyanates in it before it cures (it's fine once cured) are a respiratory hazard, especially to people sensitive to them, asthmatics and people with other respiratory conditions - definitely something to mix outdoors, standing upwind of all the gubbins, wearing a respirator.

You can get the two part foam pre-packaged in sealed bin-bag like bags, you crack an internal seal and squish them about a bit and the thing inflates in your hands. This cuts out all the hazard stuff but they're chuffing expensive. The brand name of the brand leader escapes me at the moment, but sometimes if you're lucky you can find the pre-packs at a discount on eBay.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70408 on: September 25, 2020, 09:09:24 pm »

A free tech tip if you're ever working on the carb on one of these small 2-cycle motors: Once you put it all back together (note that the longer adjustment needle is usually the LO side), turn both adjuster screws all the way in until they bottom out, then back the LO one out 1 3/8 turns, and the HI one 1 7/8 turns. Prime, choke, etc per directions (some models have a half-choke position while some will automatically unchoke as soon as you crack the throttle open), then run the thing for a few minutes by feathering the throttle as needed to warm it up. NOW, adjust the HI by holding the trigger at WOT and cranking the HI screw out til the burn starts to clear up, then starts to break up, then crank it in until it starts to break up again. Set the HI screw halfway between the two points.

Now the LO screw: 9 times out of 10, you don't need to adjust this at all from 1 3/8 turns; first set the idle SPEED screw so it keeps running, then crank it out until it starts to buck/labor. Now turn the idle speed in (higher rpm) again until it smooths out, plus half a turn.

At this point, if the engine is warm, you should be able to hit the throttle and it'll ramp up quickly. If it bogs, open the LO screw a hair... like 1/16 turn at a time... until it ramps up like it should. Now a final check of the HI screw at WOT again; it may need 1/16 or so either way to clear up, but usually will be right on here too, and should idle down without dying. If it dies, adjust the idle SPEED up a hair, checking for bogging vs dying as it comes down from WOT.

If your engine doesn't behave like this, almost without a doubt you've missed something while cleaning, or if it is old enough, the primary diaphragm has gotten stiff and a proper rebuild with kit is necessary. But note: both of these machines are 12 years old, came from a snow-belt climate, and were still easily restored with just new fuel lines/filters and a proper cleaning. :-+


Now go burn some 2-cycles!!!


mnem
 :popcorn:
While those tips are correct for those with experience tuning small 2 stroke engines they shouldn't be attempted without a rev counter AND the manufacturers WOT max rpm spec.
Many small engines will tune happily a few 1000rpm past their max spec however it limits their life drastically.
When I was on the tools and very familiar with many small motors I would tune 'by ear' and consistently get within a few 100 rpm of spec but not now as 'the ear' is now well out of calibration.  ;)

Most of us have a suitable RPM counter on our bench.....a DSO and with a probes reference lead clipped to the grabber makes for a fine near field ignition pickup and a little maths gives us a frequency to tune to with the Hi screw.
Eg. 12000rpm/60 = 200 Hz.

That's a reasonable concern for a no-load scenario, or an engine like on a model airplane where you may be running underpropped. In practice, weedwackers and leaf blowers usually A) have an appropriate load (especially if you leave the line in the head) and B) are limited by the stock carburetor as to max RPM anyways (safety/emissions legislation in place for decades now).  If you like to put bigger carbs on little engines, you're definitely operating above the skill-level appropriate to this discussion. ;)

My original tech tip is directed at a certain level of mechanicking skill and is thereby self-limiting; if you don't already grok in fullness and know what terms like "starts to labor" or "clears up" or "breaks up" mean, you aren't the intended audience. Run, don't walk to the nearest exit.

mnem
...and jump off a cliff. >:D
 

Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70409 on: September 25, 2020, 09:24:46 pm »
That's a reasonable concern for a no-load scenario, or an engine like on a model airplane where you may be running underpropped. In practice, weedwackers and leaf blowers usually A) have an appropriate load (especially if you leave the line in the head) and B) are limited by the stock carburetor as to max RPM anyways (safety/emissions legislation in place for decades now). 
Not as much as you might assume.
The modern engine is designed to run at high rpm and some stock tunes are as high as 13krpm with peak torque at nearly 10krpm. Back in the day when we raced chainsaws tunes to 13k were normal for production 11k rpm units with also a little porting/matching to lift peak torque.
Today many motors have a fixed main jet with a supplementary Hi screw only for fine adjustment and the only clue to this other than stripping the carb is a 3/4-1 turn Hi adjustment spec in the manual whereas the norm is 1 1/4 turns out. Those with fixed jets at least prevent less blow ups from owners twiddling with tunes thinking they know best.  ::)
Never assume the carb itself will limit max rpm anywhere near manufacturers spec.  :scared:
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 
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Offline srb1954

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70410 on: September 25, 2020, 09:50:35 pm »
   Also, think I'm going to jump off a bridge now. The E4402B doesn't look better. And that's putting it mildly.

Before you do anything rash... have you tried a different patch cable? Something known 50-ohm with N-connector one end and BNC the other, no adapters? Preferably known sweep-tested to 10-12GHz...?

When you get up into these frequencies... a hinky cable or adapter can hose you big time.

Good luck my friend!

mnem
 :popcorn:

Yup. First thing I tried. Note, by the way, that the "noise floor" (hah!) Sits at 50dBm. Plus, not minus. That would be some trick for a knackered patch cable  :'(
Maybe you could harness some of that noise floor power and put it to practical use. With +50dBm available you could power your soldering iron or light your workshop.
 
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Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70411 on: September 25, 2020, 10:36:22 pm »
That's a reasonable concern for a no-load scenario, or an engine like on a model airplane where you may be running underpropped. In practice, weedwackers and leaf blowers usually A) have an appropriate load (especially if you leave the line in the head) and B) are limited by the stock carburetor as to max RPM anyways (safety/emissions legislation in place for decades now). 
Not as much as you might assume.
The modern engine is designed to run at high rpm and some stock tunes are as high as 13krpm with peak torque at nearly 10krpm. Back in the day when we raced chainsaws tunes to 13k were normal for production 11k rpm units with also a little porting/matching to lift peak torque.
Today many motors have a fixed main jet with a supplementary Hi screw only for fine adjustment and the only clue to this other than stripping the carb is a 3/4-1 turn Hi adjustment spec in the manual whereas the norm is 1 1/4 turns out. Those with fixed jets at least prevent less blow ups from owners twiddling with tunes thinking they know best.  ::)
Never assume the carb itself will limit max rpm anywhere near manufacturers spec.  :scared:

Mmmmkay... I know regs have been pushing for a cleaner, leaner burn for a while now; in all honesty, I'm amazed 2-strokes are still legal. I'll admit I dunno everything. :o

But I've tuned 2-strokes by ear for 4 decades (including some pretty complicated modding of heads, reeds, pistons and exhaust volume), and the only engines I've ever blown up were race engines I knew I was running on the ragged edge. Maybe I just have a knack for erring on the rich side rather than too lean. :-//

I'll stick by my methods for these old beasts... if I do blow one up, I'll make sure to post in here so you can point at me and laugh.  ;)

Feel free to enjoy a pre-emptive point & laugh... I'm a big boy & I can handle it.  :-DD

mnem
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Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70412 on: September 25, 2020, 10:49:55 pm »
my new wire stripper.
https://www.wiha.com/de/de/werkzeuge/zangen/abisolierwerkzeuge/abisolierwerkzeuge/34/abisolierwerkzeug-automatisch

paid about 45 Brussels pesos for it.

Don't know if it's any good tho
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70413 on: September 25, 2020, 11:00:13 pm »
@mnem   Leaf blower Saskia style ...   (have to manage the expectations)

https://youtu.be/tNjWMGdrVJE



MUCH better use for a leaf-blower.     >:D

mnem
Whuuuuuuuuuuuttt...?!? I cannnn't heeeear youuuuu!!!
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70414 on: September 25, 2020, 11:07:10 pm »
The only explanations I have are: do not care, lazyness, dumbness in no particular order or amount.

The perpetual underestimation of the ability of parcelmonkeys to abuse your package? There does not seem to be a level of protection that shields a device from **all** possible abuse, with the possible exception of bags of foam that set around it with 10cm of padding on all sides.

      

Double-wall carton with Foam-in-place packing = Thermonuclear protection. Yes it adds $8-12 to shipping costs for a typical boat anchor. But it ensures you get the busted-ass piece of TE you PAID FOR, not the crumbled remains thereof.  ;)

You can duplicate this at home with large shopping or garbage bags and Great Stuff foam insulation; I did so for a  Holley Carburetor I sold on fleaBay years ago that was going to Baja. I put one large Wally World bag in the bottom of the box, half-full of foam, then placed the carb already wrapped in bubble-wrap on top so the foam squished up around the sides (but still inside the bag). Then another bag on top similarly half-filled with Great Stuff. Then I pressed the pad-baggie flat and closed the box with a heavy brick on top; then let it sit an hour and checked for unprotected areas on the sides. It was all foam-ily, so I sealed the box & shipped it.

Great Stuff will usually keep expanding until it sets up; sometimes as long as 15-30 minutes or longer.

mnem
moo.

Interesting idea with the Great Stuff foam.   There are several varieties of that product, do you use the Big Gap Filler version?
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70415 on: September 25, 2020, 11:11:34 pm »

my new wire stripper.
https://www.wiha.com/de/de/werkzeuge/zangen/abisolierwerkzeuge/abisolierwerkzeuge/34/abisolierwerkzeug-automatisch

paid about 45 Brussels pesos for it.   Don't know if it's any good tho

That robot stripper is too smart for a crusty old dwagon like me. Probably fuck up a firmware update and brick the fukkin' thing.  :palm:

mnem
 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70416 on: September 25, 2020, 11:11:49 pm »
[] I'll admit I dunno everything. :o

But []
:-DD
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70417 on: September 25, 2020, 11:17:36 pm »
The only explanations I have are: do not care, lazyness, dumbness in no particular order or amount.

The perpetual underestimation of the ability of parcelmonkeys to abuse your package? There does not seem to be a level of protection that shields a device from **all** possible abuse, with the possible exception of bags of foam that set around it with 10cm of padding on all sides.

      

Double-wall carton with Foam-in-place packing = Thermonuclear protection. Yes it adds $8-12 to shipping costs for a typical boat anchor. But it ensures you get the busted-ass piece of TE you PAID FOR, not the crumbled remains thereof.  ;)

You can duplicate this at home with large shopping or garbage bags and Great Stuff foam insulation; I did so for a  Holley Carburetor I sold on fleaBay years ago that was going to Baja. I put one large Wally World bag in the bottom of the box, half-full of foam, then placed the carb already wrapped in bubble-wrap on top so the foam squished up around the sides (but still inside the bag). Then another bag on top similarly half-filled with Great Stuff. Then I pressed the pad-baggie flat and closed the box with a heavy brick on top; then let it sit an hour and checked for unprotected areas on the sides. It was all foam-ily, so I sealed the box & shipped it.

Great Stuff will usually keep expanding until it sets up; sometimes as long as 15-30 minutes or longer.

mnem
moo.

Interesting idea with the Great Stuff foam.   There are several varieties of that product, do you use the Big Gap Filler version?

Ummm.... I used the "whatever they had at Homeowner Hell 10 years ago" version.  :-DD   I think the can was red.  :o

Seriously tho... I'd guess the big gap formula would probably go the farthest per can.  :-//

mnem
:popcorn:
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70418 on: September 26, 2020, 01:04:20 am »
Mmmmkay... I know regs have been pushing for a cleaner, leaner burn for a while now; in all honesty, I'm amazed 2-strokes are still legal.
mnem
I am not my pants. No, I am not your pants either.
Manufacturers have reduced emissions in primarily 2 ways, air injection into mufflers for an exhaust afterburn and the advancement in lubricants.
Long gone are the days of 1/2 pint/gal of SAE30 which was the norm when I was in short pants to 50:1 mixes for air cooled 2 strokes and 100:1 for water cooled 2 stokes however care still need be taken to choose the correct lubricant for the end use especially due to the massive difference of operating temps between air and water cooled engines.

We can have the argument of 4 vs 2 stroke all day long but remember a 4 stroke with a bit of age goes through oil too as the rings wear and get to the point where they still run fine but use more oil than a 2 stroke equivalent will.
Power/compactness vs size/weight a 2 stroke wins hands down.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
 

Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70419 on: September 26, 2020, 01:09:19 am »
Mmmmkay... I know regs have been pushing for a cleaner, leaner burn for a while now; in all honesty, I'm amazed 2-strokes are still legal.
mnem
I am not my pants. No, I am not your pants either.
Manufacturers have reduced emissions in primarily 2 ways, air injection into mufflers for an exhaust afterburn and the advancement in lubricants.
Long gone are the days of 1/2 pint/gal of SAE30 which was the norm when I was in short pants to 50:1 mixes for air cooled 2 strokes and 100:1 for water cooled 2 stokes however care still need be taken to choose the correct lubricant for the end use especially due to the massive difference of operating temps between air and water cooled engines.

We can have the argument of 4 vs 2 stroke all day long but remember a 4 stroke with a bit of age goes through oil too as the rings wear and get to the point where they still run fine but use more oil than a 2 stroke equivalent will.
Power/compactness vs size/weight a 2 stroke wins hands down.

Hard to imagine a 4 stroke weed whacker or chain saw would be much fun to use.  Even a backpack 4 stroke leafblower is easily "blown away" by a hand held 2 stroke!

If the tool is on wheels, it's a different thing - e.g. lawn mowers, big leaf blowers, snow blowers, etc., seem to be more pleasant overall as 4 strokes.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 01:12:21 am by SilverSolder »
 

Online Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70420 on: September 26, 2020, 01:40:58 am »
Power/compactness vs size/weight a 2 stroke wins hands down.

As a former enthusiastic rider of 2 stroke motorbikes, loved the lightness, hated the horrible torque curve. Noisy too, unless you go water cooled and that kind of kills the raw simplicity that is part of the 2 stroke aesthetic.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70421 on: September 26, 2020, 02:29:24 am »
I once drove a Saab 3 cyl two stroke car - The sound was awesome, but it was a smoky experience overall!

« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 02:38:32 am by SilverSolder »
 

Online mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70422 on: September 26, 2020, 02:49:45 am »
Ummmm... I was unaware there was any argument here...?  :-//

mnem
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70423 on: September 26, 2020, 03:29:53 am »
I once drove a Saab 3 cyl two stroke car - The sound was awesome, but it was a smoky experience overall!

Was that the one with the petrol cabin/pre-heater  that could be used with the engine off?
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #70424 on: September 26, 2020, 07:13:37 am »
Case opened. I've never done this before, so thumbs held.

So, seller replied with an offer of 50% unit price reduction.  I can't say I'm impressed. The lions' share of the total price was GSP handlingmutilation, and it's the shippers who fuckerized it. (from a sorry initial state of "badly packaged", of course.)

Am going to try for a total refund. How do I best go about that?

Side note: Popped the top off. It is extremely dirty inside (and out). Must have been on a shop floor; there is a Dymo label saying "GRINDER MACHINE" on it. I can very easily imagine contamination-caused shorts on the PCB leading to its decommission.


Edit: Refund received. I went to escalate and found case closed, all green.  :-+
« Last Edit: September 26, 2020, 07:39:48 am by mansaxel »
 
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