Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[AVGresponding]

When did the rule on using torque screwdrivers come in in the UK? I didn't see the muppet who replaced our consumer unit a couple of years ago. Mind you he managed to trip it off a couple of times. One was terminating a SWA feed for a heat pump to the isolator. He connected the MCB before the isolaotor 
Anyone using SMAs or precision RF connectors should have torque spanners too. I have several and a torque calibrator to set them  (cross checked with the fancy digital one at work).

With the 18th edition regs.

There’s something to be said in support of a proper apprenticeship scheme where a year or two of gripping and dragging cables builds sufficient strength to twist a screwdriver with sufficient force to make a properly sound connection.
Limp wristed sparkles need be shown the door and warned not to let it hit them on the way out ! 

Harsh words considering that we are now having an influx of the fairer sex into the trade now, who probably don't have that degree of strength in their wrists and any attempt to show the door is likely to, especially if she is a batshit crazy red head going to be rather painful 

The one female apprentice electrician we have has a lot more strength in her wrists than one of the new male ones. Not gonna mention any names, despite the vanishingly small chance of anyone else that knows either of them reading it.

An equally large problem to loose connections is overtightening. It's not "more", it's "right", that's needed. I find that when I torque to spec which I try to do these days, I experience the torque required as substantially less than what I'd use if I did things by feel.

Torque control tooling is applied science, from a large data set. A no-brainer for someone with TEA, methinks.

Indeed, it is overtightening that has prompted the requirement for torque drivers, as it's now believed to be more likely than under tightening to cause fires.

[bd139]

Three Words  -   N H S

My inguinal hernia repair cost me exactly £0.00   That includes clinic appointments  before surgury, post op. medication and two followup visits to my GP   (they don't see us back in the hospital or clinic unless things go badly wrong)

There are no bills, no co-pays, no insurance forms, no visits from a friendly hospital administrator with clipboard asking about insurance and no surprise bills a month later.

Edit:  Almost forgot been so long since we lived in the USA:  No spending hours on hold with the insurance company.

Until you want dental care that is. Which cost me just over £1k last month because the lead time on anything is about 8 months here by which time any infection probably spreads to your heart...

Oh and that time they actively tried to kill my ex wife, twice ...

... but they unclogged me.

Overall it's about a 5/10 rating for NHS here.

[Andrew_Debbie]

I don't go anywhere near an NHS dentist.   We pay for private dental care and do not have any dental insurance.   

Costing me less than it did in the US, but the dental care here is not as good*.  I've been tempted to fly back to the US for dental  or  work it into one of our holiday trips.


*I'm in rural North Wales.  Might be better dentists elsewhere.    dunno.

[Cubdriver]

An equally large problem to loose connections is overtightening. It's not "more", it's "right", that's needed. I find that when I torque to spec which I try to do these days, I experience the torque required as substantially less than what I'd use if I did things by feel.

Torque control tooling is applied science, from a large data set. A no-brainer for someone with TEA, methinks.

Indeed, it is overtightening that has prompted the requirement for torque drivers, as it's now believed to be more likely than under tightening to cause fires.

That really doesn't surprise me.  I bought the Wiha torque driver about ten years ago when I began my house rewiring, and was surprised how little torque the proper tightening required.  The reality is that if someone not using torque tools leaves a connection too loose, it's most likely to be because they didn't tighten it at all.



-Pat

[bd139]

I don't go anywhere near an NHS dentist.   We pay for private dental care and do not have any dental insurance.   

Costing me less than it did in the US, but the dental care here is not as good*.  I've been tempted to fly back to the US for dental  or  work it into one of our holiday trips.


*I'm in rural North Wales.  Might be better dentists elsewhere.    dunno.

Dentists good here (SW London) but cost proper money.

[Saskia]

which reminds me.

Too much stress, gotta get back to taking care of myself.

[Robert763]

Just won two instruments on the latest Ramco auction. Bit of nostalgia, I designed the electronics in them about 18 years ago. Back then they were £9950 each. I paid less than £25 including fees and VAT for both. I've no use for them as is but lots of useful bits inside. Unfortunatly we were bought out by an American company and as it competed with their existing product they stopped production and support so no market for used ones from the users.

[Specmaster]

Three Words  -   N H S

My inguinal hernia repair cost me exactly £0.00   That includes clinic appointments  before surgury, post op. medication and two followup visits to my GP   (they don't see us back in the hospital or clinic unless things go badly wrong)

There are no bills, no co-pays, no insurance forms, no visits from a friendly hospital administrator with clipboard asking about insurance and no surprise bills a month later.

Edit:  Almost forgot been so long since we lived in the USA:  No spending hours on hold with the insurance company.

Until you want dental care that is. Which cost me just over £1k last month because the lead time on anything is about 8 months here by which time any infection probably spreads to your heart...

Oh and that time they actively tried to kill my ex wife, twice ...

... but they unclogged me.

Overall it's about a 5/10 rating for NHS here.

WTF did you have done to cost that much? New set of false teeth  As you know, I pulled my crown off last Saturday, and bearing in mind I have a NHS dentist, rang them Monday, got an emergency appointment for tomorrow morning to re-glue it back in place. Cost I expect to be around £50, no 8 months waiting at all here.

On the other hand, if Murphy doesn't get ya one way, he will find another. Had to take one of my cats to the vets today as it turns out she was bitten by another cat in the garden last night, 2 injections later, £140. Then, just now, the larder freezer in the garage was found with the door open and everything defrosted. Nobody owned up to leaving it open, so we assume the door seal has gone, so now looking around for a new freezer. I hate Murphy.

Chucked away loads of food but kept things like jacket potatoes, chips, peas as they were all raw to start with so should be OK again once refrozen, might be a bit difficult getting a portion out when required as I expect they will refreeze in a lump, keeping fingers crossed.

[bd139]

Tooth out, 2 fillings, spacer, cleaning.

As for cat, that's why I have no pets. My sister is a vet and I know how much she charges 

Freezer - also pain in the arse

[Specmaster]

Tooth out, 2 fillings, spacer, cleaning.

As for cat, that's why I have no pets. My sister is a vet and I know how much she charges 

Freezer - also pain in the arse
[/quo

Tooth out, 2 fillings, spacer, cleaning.

As for cat, that's why I have no pets. My sister is a vet and I know how much she charges 

Freezer - also pain in the arse

That tooth treatment, must have been private treatment for that amount of work, surely. I think that for a NHS dentist would have been about £80.

[bd139]

Got an NHS appointment for it in Jan 2022...

[mansaxel]

I stand corrected.

EDIT:

Except that if it's using spring pressure, it is not enough to create the deliberate deformation of the wire I was talking aboot. You have no way of knowing if there is plastic in some part of the cam mechanism that can melt/deform away, decreasing that pressure unless you take one of every package you buy apart to make sure. You also have no way of knowing if the person doing any particular job bought decent or shite ones.

These are valid points, and there are some Wago clamps that are not suited to all wire formats. Single-core is quite OK, actually, as is
very stranded wire. The layup we're using in Sweden, called "FK" which is a 7-strand (in 1,5mm²) wire for conduit is actually the most picky one. The 221 clamp was made especially to cater to this while at the same time handling the other strands well. Using anything else than 221 with FK is a very effective firestarter.

Simply making sure you get Wago 221 and that they're used correctly (which is limited to "stripping 11mm and inserting fully in an open hole, clicking it shut") will deal with your concerns.

[mansaxel]

my one day in a commifornia hospital cost me 38675 USD ... and that was about 20 years ago ...

To me, it's usually the parking that's the most expensive.

[mnementh]

I stand corrected.

EDIT:

Except that if it's using spring pressure, it is not enough to create the deliberate deformation of the wire I was talking aboot. You have no way of knowing if there is plastic in some part of the cam mechanism that can melt/deform away, decreasing that pressure unless you take one of every package you buy apart to make sure. You also have no way of knowing if the person doing any particular job bought decent or shite ones.

These are valid points, and there are some Wago clamps that are not suited to all wire formats. Single-core is quite OK, actually, as is
very stranded wire. The layup we're using in Sweden, called "FK" which is a 7-strand (in 1,5mm²) wire for conduit is actually the most picky one. The 221 clamp was made especially to cater to this while at the same time handling the other strands well. Using anything else than 221 with FK is a very effective firestarter.

Simply making sure you get Wago 221 and that they're used correctly (which is limited to "stripping 11mm and inserting fully in an open hole, clicking it shut") will deal with your concerns.

Consider me an honest skeptic.

I remember my grand-dad telling stories of working for an electrical contractor during the time of the Rural Electrification Act; back when wiring was cloth-insulated and run in pairs on joists with porcelain insulators. I also remember him telling of a number of "incidents" revolving around the lead pot used to tin/solder the connections at each end.

Yes, things have changed; some for worse and some for better. Scary bit is that there are probably still houses in Arkansas with that wiring in daily use, and haven't burned down yet.    Of course we have completely different needs of our electrical supply as they did back when it was put in; but I'm not sure I believe any of these new plastic bits & gimcracks will last a century under any circumstances.   

And I have a feeling our grandkids will look down on today's electrical "standards" just like we do that prehistoric house wiring and aluminum ROMEX in-wall.

mnem
"Honey... the mynocks are after the bathroom plasma conduit again... when are you gonna call the exterminator...?"

[dl6lr]

My experience with Philips capacitors in Fluke gear is that they are complete shit. 

Not restricted to Fluke equip. My gas heating stopped working some years ago with strange buzzing sound. The blueish Philips crapacitors did go south and the µC did not respond well to full wave rectified unfiltered supply voltage... So replaced them with Panasonic FC and was working again. Last year I had to replace more of them as the control got weird with some bypass caps failing. Worked again until yesterday, when a nearby lightning strike (about 50m from our house) induced some voltages on the sensor lines...
Yeah what a disco: Light & Sound almost synchronously.

[mansaxel]

Yes, things have changed; some for worse and some for better.

I think you'll find that once you get to Europe, and Germany especially so, the state of affairs in electrical contracting has been historically  good and is getting better. Sweden and the other Nordics too. Italy in the 80s was, ehm, interesting. It improves there as well, but perhaps not to the same standards in reality.

Edison fucked the US up real good with his DC follies. You're still suffering. Add to that a completely relentless focus on speed in everything (The Larry Haun framing videos are a good example from another construction field) and top it off with a race to the bottom in cost-cutting, and you have the recipe for disaster.

[McBryce]

Yes, things have changed; some for worse and some for better.

I think you'll find that once you get to Europe, and Germany especially so, the state of affairs in electrical contracting has been historically  good and is getting better. Sweden and the other Nordics too. Italy in the 80s was, ehm, interesting. It improves there as well, but perhaps not to the same standards in reality.

Edison fucked the US up real good with his DC follies. You're still suffering. Add to that a completely relentless focus on speed in everything (The Larry Haun framing videos are a good example from another construction field) and top it off with a race to the bottom in cost-cutting, and you have the recipe for disaster.

Newly built houses in Germany are usually an example of how it should be done, but there are many older houses (one of which I live in) that are full of unpleasant surprises, Red/Black wiring, diagonal routing across a wall, dodgy fusing strategies, strange loops and unexpected series and parallel wiring. You shouldn't need a wire detector in a new German house when drilling holes, but you certainly need one in older buildings.

McBryce.   

[Specmaster]

Got an NHS appointment for it in Jan 2022...

What? is that because you haven't registered with a NHS dentist, then? Or did you miss several appointments, and they booted you off their register? I know thats what happened to me a few years ago, without telling that had done it. I then needed to register again, and now I go for a checkup and a clean about every 8 to 9 months. You could have a pet as well and be able to afford your Sister's fees if needed. 

[Specmaster]

Yes, things have changed; some for worse and some for better.

I think you'll find that once you get to Europe, and Germany especially so, the state of affairs in electrical contracting has been historically  good and is getting better. Sweden and the other Nordics too. Italy in the 80s was, ehm, interesting. It improves there as well, but perhaps not to the same standards in reality.

Edison fucked the US up real good with his DC follies. You're still suffering. Add to that a completely relentless focus on speed in everything (The Larry Haun framing videos are a good example from another construction field) and top it off with a race to the bottom in cost-cutting, and you have the recipe for disaster.

Newly built houses in Germany are usually an example of how it should be done, but there are many older houses (one of which I live in) that are full of unpleasant surprises, Red/Black wiring, diagonal routing across a wall, dodgy fusing strategies, strange loops and unexpected series and parallel wiring. You shouldn't need a wire detector in a new German house when drilling holes, but you certainly need one in older buildings.

McBryce.   

I've seen a few modern houses where the cables have been run diagonally and then plastered over , and these have been in some countries best known builders where I saw that before the plasters moved in and covered them over 

[bd139]

Got an NHS appointment for it in Jan 2022...

What? is that because you haven't registered with a NHS dentist, then? Or did you miss several appointments, and they booted you off their register? I know thats what happened to me a few years ago, without telling that had done it. I then needed to register again, and now I go for a checkup and a clean about every 8 to 9 months. You could have a pet as well and be able to afford your Sister's fees if needed. 

No - overloaded dentists here due to population density. Also a lot of dentists retired or quit during Covid and went private because they were told they weren't allowed to take on patients 

[Specmaster]

Got an NHS appointment for it in Jan 2022...

What? is that because you haven't registered with a NHS dentist, then? Or did you miss several appointments, and they booted you off their register? I know thats what happened to me a few years ago, without telling that had done it. I then needed to register again, and now I go for a checkup and a clean about every 8 to 9 months. You could have a pet as well and be able to afford your Sister's fees if needed. 

No - overloaded dentists here due to population density. Also a lot of dentists retired or quit during Covid and went private because they were told they weren't allowed to take on patients 

Bloody hell, that really stinks. I suspect that is part of the great master plan of the department of health so they can say the NHS is not fit for purpose again.

My dentist is a good one, we have 4 dentists 1 of which is now doing only private customers, he's the owner and semi retired I think. My own dentist loves the NHS and he has been during his summer holidays until last year at least, lead a team of dentists going out to 3rd world countries and doing voluntary dentistry to help out, he's one of the good ones.

[bd139]

I think it's more the fact that no one wants the job now. I mean you can do an AWS cert and get paid more than a dentist for sitting on your arse at home all day and sounding like you know what you're doing 

[tggzzz]

I think it's more the fact that no one wants the job now. I mean you can do an AWS cert and get paid more than a dentist for sitting on your arse at home all day and sounding like you know what you're doing 

Not everybody takes money as the most important thing. I once turned down a job that paid noticeably more, in favour of one I thought (correctly) was more interesting

[Cymaphore]

I don't know where all those wild theories about not enough spring pressure and wire deformation come from. The technology is successfully in use for decades, these terminals from quality vendors usually have a huge collection of independent worldwide approvals and very reliable ratings. It's not rocket science. The WAGOs are even UL listed, and that's what you look for when you buy products for the little electrons usually, isn't it?

Other means of connection are good and valid as well, of course. Someone capable and experienced with screw terminals or twisting nuts will probably do just a fine job with those things as she or he would do with spring terminals.



Two extreme examples next to each other, just because I enjoyed doing it and describing it, to get my head off work.

Left: Will last for a hundred years if you ask me, if you keep it away from water and amateurs.

Right: Home handyman's proudest hour. Still telling his grandkids how he himself has proudly shown those wires for the electrons their place! Doesn't have weak writs at all! And knows that you don't stop twisting before the thing you're working on starts to squeal. Doesn't know nor care about it being completely dry (no contact grease applied, of course). Then another turn... Will glow soon. Will break down at some point in the future. Congratulations on a job well done.

Installations like the right one have been done by private people and even some professionals in east germany quite often before the Wende and even after. You regularly find it melted down even under moderate load. That's why Aluminium is now forbidden for new installations for diameters <16mm².

Aluminium is delicate. It tells you a lot about quality of work and quality of material. Because unlike copper, it doesn't forgive, it doesn't forget, and it will put your house on fire if you don't know what you're doing. :-)

[bd139]

I think it's more the fact that no one wants the job now. I mean you can do an AWS cert and get paid more than a dentist for sitting on your arse at home all day and sounding like you know what you're doing 

Not everybody takes money as the most important thing. I once turned down a job that paid noticeably more, in favour of one I thought (correctly) was more interesting

You’re right there but it’s not much fun poking around inside people’s faces. A dentist told me that once.

Put some offers on stuff because I’m bored. Let’s see if they bite…