Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.
The DP832 opinion poll thread has started !
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-quality-of-the-rigol-dp832(a)
The DP832 opinion poll thread has started !
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-your-opinion-of-the-quality-of-the-rigol-dp832(a)That link doesn't seem to go anywhere.
Bask in AWE!
2"Think sold pine top, rear posts are both 4x6 beams and everything on this table is more that adequate to take my own weight.
There is an under-shelf, holding both tube testers a crtrejuveinwhatsittester and the oscilloscope i'm fixing for shits and giggles.
Main table is holding (from left to right down to up), Heathkit IM-8, HK ETI-7020, HK-7010, Instek GDM-8034, HK IM-5228, B&K 1801, Instek GFG-8020H, Bel merit FC-200, Fairchild 7050, Fluke 8010, Fluke 8050, Keithley 177, HP 3312A
First shelf is holding (from left to right down to up), HP 608C, random homemade supply, HK 0-12, Paco C-25, HK IN 5281, PD TW-4005, random high current low voltage power supply and then behind then is a pair of 20A @ 20v supplies
Top layer, Tek 7704A with 7A18, 7A26, Tb85 and 7B85 then to its right is a Simpson 415A
That is how much equipment this shelf can hold without overflowing onto the work area, maybe a little more if the pieces are properly shaped.
.... or not.
Clearly there has to be some commonality between the two, as glyphosates are being linked (in studies outside the US, of course) to genetic damage in animals and people similarly to agent orange exposure. It was my understanding that the development of glyphosates was a direct result of that usage, and I guess I conflated that they used agent orange as a base rather than a negative-comparison model, especially when I read of the host of genetic diseases glyphosates are suspected of causing.
I'll be the first to admit my chemistry-Fu is weak, and you clearly have done your research. So please, tell us, if you can, what could be the cause of these concerns with glyphosates? Obviously, the chemical's interaction with plant life is not the same as animal life. Dumb it down for me, please.
Yes, I get the irony here; however I have done a fair amount of research into the subject... enough that I find it scary, but also overwhelmingly technical in a discipline that is alien to me.
mnem
*Makes mental note to do more research*
Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.
Glyphosate is an organophosphorus compound. The phrase "organophosphorus compound" should set off alarm bells on any biologist or biochemists hearing of it. I don't offhand know of any organophosphorus compounds that could be regarded as intrinsically safe or harmless. On the other hand I know of many hugely toxic and dangerous organophosphorus compounds such as the insecticides malathion, parathion, diazinon, fenthion, dichlorvos, chlorpyrifos, ethion, and trichlorfon; not forgetting the organophosphorus nerve agents soman, sarin, tabun, and VX. With classmates like that no one would blame you for distrusting anyone else in the class. I would not use any organophosphorus compound known to be biologically active without protective equipment including a respirator, gloves, eye protection and a bunny suit or lab coat.
Evil bastards the lot of 'em, I'd trust 'em as far as I could spit, mnem.
@ Cerebus
Right on the money 100%.
Rarely have I ever seen such an accurate summary and previous commentary on AO.
But one correction, Dioxins were the byproduct of 245-T manufacture and the cleanest and last production was done here in NZ. However such is the toxicity of Dioxin even the very lowest levels are still undesirable and local production was ceased some 30+ years ago.
24D on the other hand is till a very useful pasture weed control tool and modern modified formulations of such are still in widespread use today.
Glysophates by comparison are somewhat innocuous formulations where toxicity gram for gram is similar to common salt. This is established by way of a lethal dose that kills 50% of the lab specimens and is documented as LD50.
Bask in AWE! 2" Think sold pine top, rear posts are both 4x6 beams and everything on this table is more that adequate to take my own weight. There is an under-shelf, holding both tube testers a crtrejuveinwhatsittester and the oscilloscope i'm fixing for shits and giggles. Main table is holding (from left to right down to up), Heathkit IM-8, HK ETI-7020, HK-7010, Instek GDM-8034, HK IM-5228, B&K 1801, Instek GFG-8020H, Bel merit FC-200, Fairchild 7050, Fluke 8010, Fluke 8050, Keithley 177, HP 3312A.
First shelf is holding (from left to right down to up), HP 608C, random homemade supply, HK 0-12, Paco C-25, HK IN 5281, PD TW-4005, random high current low voltage power supply and then behind then is a pair of 20A @ 20v supplies. Top layer, Tek 7704A with 7A18, 7A26, Tb85 and 7B85 then to its right is a Simpson 415A. That is how much equipment this shelf can hold without overflowing onto the work area, maybe a little more if the pieces are properly shaped.
.... or not.
Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.
(1)I like the overall "industrial loft reclamation project" feel of the thing; that prominent "Property of Coca-Cola" stamp is a nice touch.
(2)The "7704 of Damacles" is a bit high to be convenient as one would want for a "go-to" piece of equipment, and usually people configure a bench with scopes, meters, signal sources higher at eye level, and power supplies, speakers, loading devices at work surface level. It's all about optimizing the layout to be convenient for workflow.
(3)Nicely done overall!
(4)Once you start using the bench for actual work you'll rearrange stuff to be convenient for you... the template I suggest is just that; a suggestion based on observation of a LOT of installations.
mnem
*Sghetti & meatballz time*
Why is there a discussion of Agent Orange in a test equipment thread. Can you please do it in the General Chat area?
Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.
Why is there a discussion of Agent Orange in a test equipment thread. Can you please do it in the General Chat area?
This thread has degenerated into a poor version of Twatter, with messages akin to "my parcel is coming up the driveway" and similar.
It's here because this is where our friends are, and we tolerate a certain level of OT here. In all honesty, we find "OT Nazi-ing" generally much more offensive than a page or two of OT.
It is in large part that tolerance which has made this one of the most popular threads on the server.
Clearly there has to be some commonality between the two, as glyphosates are being linked (in studies outside the US, of course) to genetic damage in animals and people similarly to agent orange exposure. It was my understanding that the development of glyphosates was a direct result of that usage, and I guess I conflated that they used agent orange as a base rather than a negative-comparison model, especially when I read of the host of genetic diseases glyphosates are suspected of causing.
I'll be the first to admit my chemistry-Fu is weak, and you clearly have done your research. So please, tell us, if you can, what could be the cause of these concerns with glyphosates? Obviously, the chemical's interaction with plant life is not the same as animal life. Dumb it down for me, please.
Yes, I get the irony here; however I have done a fair amount of research into the subject... enough that I find it scary, but also overwhelmingly technical in a discipline that is alien to me.
mnem
*Makes mental note to do more research*
Agent Orange - the then manufacturing methods for 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T produced dioxins, as an unintended by-product, in more than trivial quantities. Dioxins are highly toxic, affecting gene expression in all eukaryote species. They poison at a very fundamental level of cell biology that can cause immediate damage, cancer and birth defects. The dread PCBs in old transformer oils are a related and similarly toxic class of chemicals. Any possible acute or chronic toxicity from 2,4-D and 2,4,5-T pales in comparison to the toxicity attributable to the presence of dioxins in Agent Orange.
Glyphosate is an organophosphorus compound. The phrase "organophosphorus compound" should set off alarm bells on any biologist or biochemists hearing of it. I don't offhand know of any organophosphorus compounds that could be regarded as intrinsically safe or harmless. On the other hand I know of many hugely toxic and dangerous organophosphorus compounds such as the insecticides malathion, parathion, diazinon, fenthion, dichlorvos, chlorpyrifos, ethion, and trichlorfon; not forgetting the organophosphorus nerve agents soman, sarin, tabun, and VX. With classmates like that no one would blame you for distrusting anyone else in the class. I would not use any organophosphorus compound known to be biologically active without protective equipment including a respirator, gloves, eye protection and a bunny suit or lab coat.
Evil bastards the lot of 'em, I'd trust 'em as far as I could spit, mnem.
Please don't spit me... I'm large and tough and stringy and you'll play hell getting me up on the rotisserie. Also, it's with a little "m" on purpose, not because I can't be arsed to capitalize.
That... was pretty effing amazing. It brings the base chemistry much more clearly into view than any other discussion I've seen on AO or glyphosates. Thank you.@ Cerebus
Right on the money 100%.
Rarely have I ever seen such an accurate summary and previous commentary on AO.
But one correction, Dioxins were the byproduct of 245-T manufacture and the cleanest and last production was done here in NZ. However such is the toxicity of Dioxin even the very lowest levels are still undesirable and local production was ceased some 30+ years ago.
24D on the other hand is till a very useful pasture weed control tool and modern modified formulations of such are still in widespread use today.
Glysophates by comparison are somewhat innocuous formulations where toxicity gram for gram is similar to common salt. This is established by way of a lethal dose that kills 50% of the lab specimens and is documented as LD50.
The really big problem with glyphosates is not just the potential effects, but the fact that Monsanto-Bayer A) have been engaged for decades in a brutal multimillion dollar campaign to PREVENT any meaningful studies on the damage they and neonicotinids pose to those living near where they are used, and have shown time & again that they will bring the Litigation Angels of Death down upon any scientist who dares suggest the food they spray it on isn't safe to eat, and 2) are literally producing this shit by the oil-tanker-full to distribute worldwide as part of their GMO/Pesticide/Herbicide Global Hegemony campaign. The "relatively harmless" notion you suggest is meaningless in the face of THAT kind of volume. The fact they're fighting so hard to keep it from being studied tells me they already know just how dangerous the shit is, and that it's VERY dangerous, but they don;t give a fuck as long as it helps them promote their stranglehold on the world's food supply.
The GMO foods they are producing are specifically so the plants are able to withstand the toxic cocktail of pesticides and to prevent collateral damage of crops in areas cleared of "nuisance verge" with their herbicides.
It should scare the shit out of ANYONE to think that the whole reason for GMOs is because they're pouring so much poison on our food that it kills the food too...
An interesting side note re: dioxins. They were first discovered as a byproduct of the bleaching of wood pulp for paper. Both the county I grew up in Central New York and later in Pittsburgh had areas declared hazardous waste disasters due to the abandoned waste escaping unregulated storage from shuttered paper mills.
mnem
*Sghetti & meatballz time*
It's here because this is where our friends are, and we tolerate a certain level of OT here. In all honesty, we find "OT Nazi-ing" generally much more offensive than a page or two of OT.
Well I have a lot of friends here too go figure. It's off topic. WAY off topic. So that's what the General chat area is for. If you want to talk Agent Orange or Pepperoni pizza recipes you can go there - that's what it's for. This is the Test Equipment Board and a thread about test equipment - Not Agent Orange.QuoteIt is in large part that tolerance which has made this one of the most popular threads on the server.
I've been on it a long time mnementh, and it's mostly all test equipment. Going off page after page on Agent Orange isn't what makes it a popular thread.
xrunner
*Letting Loose*
There... you've got that off your chest. I hope you feel better. You have a right to your opinion, just as you have a right to choose which haunts you frequent.
That said... I will not be browbeaten into censoring the discussion for anything short of outright trolling or personal attack. I have a pretty well-developed sense of where the OT line is, both in nature and duration, and I've probablyherded more catsmoderated more discussions than you've seen over the last 3 decades.
On this point then, I shall hold my own counsel above yours, thank you.
To get a decent grasp is to understand the philosophy of chemicals usage and why we need to use them.
Herbicides, vaccines, fertilizers, antibiotics, GE plants and so on and on.
All affect our quality of live, sustainability and productive capability to provide for the existing population and our ability into the future.
WRT food production, we can no longer plant, control disease or weeds and harvest by hand so it must be mechanized so nuisances like weeds that might clog machinery or contaminate the harvest need be managed so they don't. Traditionally selective sprays were used but just like any organism weeds develop immunity so rather than pursue the past methods of a decade of chemical research to find new compounds suitable for 'safe' control, modern science has opened the path of GE so that crops can be modified to resist the use of the 'desirably low toxicity' chemicals to control those weeds to maintain or grow production levels and quality.
Is GE good or bad or is it no different to the centuries of selective breeding of plants and animals that has already taken place ?
The modern way of thinking that a compound that controls/kills something else 'must be bad' is the issue here rather than examine the documentation that demonstrates safeness and suitability from a plethora of blind and 2nd/3rd party tests.
Just because the public has zero perception/comprehension of the depth of research involved before products even gets to market certainly reveals they are much like a mob of sheep, just blindly following some leader.
There... you've got that off your chest. I hope you feel better. You have a right to your opinion, just as you have a right to choose which haunts you frequent.
Thank you.QuoteThat said... I will not be browbeaten into censoring the discussion for anything short of outright trolling or personal attack. I have a pretty well-developed sense of where the OT line is, both in nature and duration, and I've probablyherded more catsmoderated more discussions than you've seen over the last 3 decades.
I doubt it, I used to own a forum and also Admin two others. No, I doubt you've moderated more than I have.
Ah but I didn't ask you to censor a thing. See you're getting so flustered you aren't taking time to think. I can't tell you what to do. I asked you to do the discussion in the proper area (Chat) as a friendly request. Didn't you say we're all friends here? That is not censoring. Far from it, it's simply organizing the discussions to where they should be.QuoteOn this point then, I shall hold my own counsel above yours, thank you.
As I do above yours as regards this talk.
xrunnner
*telling it like it is*
And I suppose that you know better than everybody having the conversation where that conversation belongs?
And I suppose that you know better than everybody having the conversation where that conversation belongs?
In this particular case of agent orange ... absolutely!
xrunner
*I quote from HAL - "Has never made a mistake or distorted information"*
I'm going to be facetious and remark that a discussion about other forums and moderation is off-topic in this thread. Could you lads please move along?