Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14554018 times)

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Offline worsthorse

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49625 on: February 13, 2020, 05:45:52 pm »

On the recently completed 485 I mentioned that I was unable to adjust out some peaking on fast rise time pulses. Decided to see if I could determine why. The pulses were fine until the last IC before the vertical output and that's where the issue was. Closer examination of that area revealed some prior gorilla has been in here. The IC was clearly changed out. And I suspect some damage to traces might have occurred which has screwed up impedance matching. So....investigated how difficult would it be to swap over the vertical board from the parts mule.   ...First off...the service manual gives absolutely no instructions on how to remove the vertical board. So I was on my own. Turns out it's not too bad. Most of the board is modular except for 2 solder connections for the delay line.

   But the biggest issue was the vertical output IC is stud mounted to the chassis crammed next to the CRT...   

Wow... from a engineering and balanced-capacitance/noise-isolation standpoint that design is very clever... but from a serviceability standpoint it's a dicksore. If they'd moved that IC a cm or three in almost any direction it would've been safer in terms of getting a wrench/fingers in there by that fragile CRT and plate leads.  |O

mnem
Just put a dropcloth over the 'scope until you're finished, okay...? >:D

When one of our production systems ended up with something like that, it was because we had some basic design or specification problem that couldn't be solved any other way. One of the graphics memory boards I had a very small oscillator board basically glued to the end of it to move a clock circuit a very small and rarely visible bit of noise into the pixel stream. It showed up as a quivering pixel.  Such "features" were always a PITA to get working in the first place and all you could hope for when they shipped is that you'd never have to work on them in the field.
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Online bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49626 on: February 13, 2020, 05:53:42 pm »
Cheapest amazon P6100 probes. I am confused:

Need me some Bodnar.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 05:55:20 pm by bd139 »
 

Offline madao

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49627 on: February 13, 2020, 06:03:02 pm »
Darf mehr sein ?  (May be more ?)

40ns risetime is real, bodnar-pulser is using
927484-0

ca  320ps risetime.
927492-1

~300ps, much reflexion
927496-2


Most fastest scope in my hands
927500-3
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 06:08:59 pm by madao »
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49628 on: February 13, 2020, 06:06:26 pm »
Cheapest amazon P6100 probes. I am confused:
And direct to BNC connection ?
50 ohm termination required ?
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49629 on: February 13, 2020, 06:29:12 pm »

On the recently completed 485 I mentioned that I was unable to adjust out some peaking on fast rise time pulses. Decided to see if I could determine why. The pulses were fine until the last IC before the vertical output and that's where the issue was. Closer examination of that area revealed some prior gorilla has been in here. The IC was clearly changed out. And I suspect some damage to traces might have occurred which has screwed up impedance matching. So....investigated how difficult would it be to swap over the vertical board from the parts mule.   ...First off...the service manual gives absolutely no instructions on how to remove the vertical board. So I was on my own. Turns out it's not too bad. Most of the board is modular except for 2 solder connections for the delay line.

   But the biggest issue was the vertical output IC is stud mounted to the chassis crammed next to the CRT...   

Wow... from a engineering and balanced-capacitance/noise-isolation standpoint that design is very clever... but from a serviceability standpoint it's a dicksore. If they'd moved that IC a cm or three in almost any direction it would've been safer in terms of getting a wrench/fingers in there by that fragile CRT and plate leads.  |O

mnem
Just put a dropcloth over the 'scope until you're finished, okay...? >:D

When one of our production systems ended up with something like that, it was because we had some basic design or specification problem that couldn't be solved any other way. One of the graphics memory boards I had a very small oscillator board basically glued to the end of it to move a clock circuit a very small and rarely visible bit of noise into the pixel stream. It showed up as a quivering pixel.  Such "features" were always a PITA to get working in the first place and all you could hope for when they shipped is that you'd never have to work on them in the field.



If it were the amplifier pair directly East on bd's pic of the PCB above, I'd agree. But I see very little objective reason it couldn't have been moved North or South.

I suspect not wanting to move that part once the cramped location was discovered had a lot more to do with time constraints and the "advanced layout & design process" documented above (which I have worked with personally  |O). A lot easier to warn the factory techs with an in-house memo than to spend time & man-hours relocating because it turned out to be a bit of a PITA to service. ;)

mnem
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49630 on: February 13, 2020, 08:26:18 pm »
I'm currently looking at adding a few tables or benches to the lab. I'm seeing a lot of overly sturdy wooden constructions in labs although I'm not entirely sure why. I guess they're cheap and boat anchor resistant. I'm thinking of using proper workshop benches like you'd find in a machine shop or maybe using a few of those square framed lunchroom office type tables. The latter should probably do the job just fine and seem to be quite wallet friendly. What do you reckon?
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49631 on: February 13, 2020, 08:47:08 pm »
I'm currently looking at adding a few tables or benches to the lab. I'm seeing a lot of overly sturdy wooden constructions in labs although I'm not entirely sure why. I guess they're cheap and boat anchor resistant. I'm thinking of using proper workshop benches like you'd find in a machine shop or maybe using a few of those square framed lunchroom office type tables. The latter should probably do the job just fine and seem to be quite wallet friendly. What do you reckon?

My labs table is, and let me tell you little dirty secret, the sturdy thick wooden one, at some corner will turning into ad-hoc hammering spot  >:D, say for flattening soft aluminum panel thats bulging or bending/straightening soft metals that most electronics project used, without causing serious damage to the surface, just few minor scars wont hurt.

Instead of you have drag the lazy feet and bring the stuff to the real mechanical bench to do job, especially quite far, and overtime, trust me, you will appreciate it.

Pretty sure I'm not alone here.  :-DD

Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49632 on: February 13, 2020, 09:28:43 pm »
1 vote for sturdy benching in the shack
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49633 on: February 13, 2020, 09:37:07 pm »
I'm currently looking at adding a few tables or benches to the lab. I'm seeing a lot of overly sturdy wooden constructions in labs although I'm not entirely sure why. I guess they're cheap and boat anchor resistant. I'm thinking of using proper workshop benches like you'd find in a machine shop or maybe using a few of those square framed lunchroom office type tables. The latter should probably do the job just fine and seem to be quite wallet friendly. What do you reckon?

Depending on what you can get locally and what budget you had in mind these work well eBay auction: #391222619273 I had a spare pair (I own four of them for making coffee off) of these on wheels. The lower shelf I have loaded with 60-80kg of water in the past and one of mine in the shack is holding a rack case with 40kg of gear in it. On the top I have reguraly sat 80-100kg of Coffee machine. These are the back or spare benches.

Lifetime solution  ;)
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49634 on: February 13, 2020, 09:38:20 pm »
1 vote for sturdy benching in the shack
Why and how sturdy are we talking? Most homebrew benches seem oblivious overkill.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49635 on: February 13, 2020, 09:46:43 pm »
Depending on what you can get locally and what budget you had in mind these work well eBay auction: #391222619273 I had a spare pair (I own four of them for making coffee off) of these on wheels. The lower shelf I have loaded with 60-80kg of water in the past and one of mine in the shack is holding a rack case with 40kg of gear in it. On the top I have reguraly sat 80-100kg of Coffee machine. These are the back or spare benches.

Lifetime solution  ;)
That's one option I hadn't considered. I'm not sure it quite suits my needs but I can imagine situations where they would be excellent.
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49636 on: February 13, 2020, 09:53:02 pm »
Cheapest amazon P6100 probes. I am confused:

Need me some Bodnar.
Looks OK to my eye, or am I missing something here?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 09:57:44 pm by Specmaster »
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49637 on: February 13, 2020, 10:22:42 pm »
Cheapest amazon P6100 probes. I am confused:

Need me some Bodnar.
Looks OK to my eye, or am I missing something here?
Looks OK sure but probably much faster than the risetime of that probe.
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Offline worsthorse

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49638 on: February 13, 2020, 10:29:34 pm »

On the recently completed 485 I mentioned that I was unable to adjust out some peaking on fast rise time pulses. Decided to see if I could determine why. The pulses were fine until the last IC before the vertical output and that's where the issue was. Closer examination of that area revealed some prior gorilla has been in here. The IC was clearly changed out. And I suspect some damage to traces might have occurred which has screwed up impedance matching. So....investigated how difficult would it be to swap over the vertical board from the parts mule.   ...First off...the service manual gives absolutely no instructions on how to remove the vertical board. So I was on my own. Turns out it's not too bad. Most of the board is modular except for 2 solder connections for the delay line.

   But the biggest issue was the vertical output IC is stud mounted to the chassis crammed next to the CRT...   

Wow... from a engineering and balanced-capacitance/noise-isolation standpoint that design is very clever... but from a serviceability standpoint it's a dicksore. If they'd moved that IC a cm or three in almost any direction it would've been safer in terms of getting a wrench/fingers in there by that fragile CRT and plate leads.  |O

mnem
Just put a dropcloth over the 'scope until you're finished, okay...? >:D

When one of our production systems ended up with something like that, it was because we had some basic design or specification problem that couldn't be solved any other way. One of the graphics memory boards I had a very small oscillator board basically glued to the end of it to move a clock circuit a very small and rarely visible bit of noise into the pixel stream. It showed up as a quivering pixel.  Such "features" were always a PITA to get working in the first place and all you could hope for when they shipped is that you'd never have to work on them in the field.



If it were the amplifier pair directly East on bd's pic of the PCB above, I'd agree. But I see very little objective reason it couldn't have been moved North or South.

I suspect not wanting to move that part once the cramped location was discovered had a lot more to do with time constraints and the "advanced layout & design process" documented above (which I have worked with personally  |O). A lot easier to warn the factory techs with an in-house memo than to spend time & man-hours relocating because it turned out to be a bit of a PITA to service. ;)

mnem
*off in search of a better HDMI switch*

mebbe yes, mebbe no, though i was thinking more about the connector than that particular IC.  as for the IC location, it may just have been too expensive and time consuming to re-spin the board if they considered it an issue at all.  and for those that weren't around then, board layout was a very different animal than it is today.  when we were doing 16x18 inch eight layer boards with two traces between pads (1981ish), there were two board houses in the United States that could do the work (and weren't captive). these tek boards, though not as dense or complicated had, i imagine much more stringent characterization requirements.

for me it is fun to see the design choices that were made then. that's why i like the tek 184 so much even though i cant get the damn thing to run. it really pushed the edge for the time.


edit: wish i had watched the tektronix video before i posted... that was two generations before the boards i worked with. i haven't done a board "the tek way" since high school shop.  man, that brought back some memories, thanks for posting it.  :-+
« Last Edit: February 13, 2020, 11:38:06 pm by worsthorse »
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Offline WastelandTek

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49639 on: February 13, 2020, 10:45:01 pm »
1 vote for sturdy benching in the shack
Why and how sturdy are we talking? Most homebrew benches seem oblivious overkill.

For myself, because I don't like things wobbling around.  I have a small vise mounted on one of my benches I use for all manner of tasks and nothing is more annoying than a vise that doesn't stay put.

You say that the homebrew benches seem overkill.  I assume that you mean the, kind of standard, 2x4 frame with plywood top.  I do not feel that they are overkill.  My benches are precisely these and I have had to add intermediate legs due to the sag that tends to develop over time with a few hundred pounds of TE stacked up.

Also just ease of construction, for about $60 US you get 16' of 24" bench that can be assembled in a couple hours.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 03:56:05 am by WastelandTek »
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Offline GreyWoolfe

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49640 on: February 14, 2020, 03:09:32 am »
For myself, because I don't like things wobbling around.  I have a small vise mounted on one of my benches I use for all manner of tasks and nothing is more annoying than a vise that doesn't stay put.

You say that the homebrew benches seem overkill.  I assume that you mean the, kind of standard, 2x4 frame with plywood top.  I do not feel that they are overkill.  My benches are precisely these and I have had to add intermediate legs due to the sag that tends to develop over time with a few hundred pounds of TE stacked up.

Also just ease of construction, for about $60 US you get 8' of 24" bench that can be assembled in a couple hours.

Mine is 8" by 33" with 2X4 risers for the adjustable shelf brackets and I use 3/4" MDF instead of plywood.  My bench easily handles my overly large and fat arse with hardly a creak.  I don't have a few hundred pounds of TE so I had no need for intermediate legs.  Most of my TE are on the shelves.  One suggestion I have and I did, add a set of wheels.  I have a shelf on the bottom and as sure as the sun rises, stuff rolls under it.  My 19" wall mounted rack is also behind and above the bench shelves.  I can roll the bench out to touch that as needed.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49641 on: February 14, 2020, 04:54:42 am »
As I am not a Catholic think I still need to confess my Sins somewhere and seek absolution :-DD

Forgive me TEA I WEA'd again .... instead of buying the recently mentioned GDO. I saw this on evilbay and it spoke to me and said I need a home and by the patent and details the youngest it can be is 96 and oldest at 110 :shock: https://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/routers/stanley/stanley_71.5.html It is a bit niche but I could have used one over the last month a few times but made do with a chisel.

Time for some elbow grease and loving then put an edge on it and put it back to work  >:D
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 06:49:38 am by beanflying »
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Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49642 on: February 14, 2020, 05:54:11 am »
*snip*
mnem
*off in search of a better HDMI switch*

If you find one let me know, mine regularly crashes   :-\
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Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49643 on: February 14, 2020, 06:27:12 am »
Code: [Select]
[url=https://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/route]https://www.hyperkitten.com/tools/route[/url] ... _71.5.html
Time for some elbow grease and loving then put an edge on it and put it back to work  >:D

There I fixed the link for you. Took 5 minutes of morning time I really should have spent on getting ready for work, but, something was wrong on the Internet  |O

Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49644 on: February 14, 2020, 06:54:56 am »
Thanks I blame the heat/lack of beer or a combination of the two  ;)

Several hours later still needs a proper edge but a bit of Linseed Oil and Vinegar combined with elbow grease works well. And NO Not in the Nixiefreq @Med grease happy ending way either  :-DD

Call it a first pass cleanup but there is still life left in it.
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49645 on: February 14, 2020, 07:55:05 am »
Thanks I blame the heat/lack of beer or a combination of the two  ;)

Several hours later still needs a proper edge but a bit of Linseed Oil and Vinegar combined with elbow grease works well. And NO Not in the Nixiefreq @Med grease happy ending way either  :-DD

Call it a first pass cleanup but there is still life left in it.
::) You are a sucker for wood working tools aren't you Bean ?
Now how many Stanley 45's do I have, at least a couple and in their original boxes.  :P
Plus a 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 and a few assorted rabbit, block and bullnose planes.

Tools, too many tools !  :scared:
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Offline Zucca

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49646 on: February 14, 2020, 07:58:43 am »
Thanks I blame the heat/lack of beer or a combination of the two  ;)

This winter/summer was so depressing, almost no winter in the north emisphere and boiling hot in the poor south.
I feel for you bean.
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49647 on: February 14, 2020, 08:11:41 am »
Thanks I blame the heat/lack of beer or a combination of the two  ;)

Several hours later still needs a proper edge but a bit of Linseed Oil and Vinegar combined with elbow grease works well. And NO Not in the Nixiefreq @Med grease happy ending way either  :-DD

Call it a first pass cleanup but there is still life left in it.
::) You are a sucker for wood working tools aren't you Bean ?
Now how many Stanley 45's do I have, at least a couple and in their original boxes.  :P
Plus a 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 and a few assorted rabbit, block and bullnose planes.

Tools, too many tools !  :scared:

BLASPHEMER!!!  Too many tools.   ::) :palm:  That is unpossible!  It's like too many counters, or too many oscilloscopes, or too many meters...   Too many tools is simply not a thing!   :P

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49648 on: February 14, 2020, 08:20:09 am »
Thanks I blame the heat/lack of beer or a combination of the two  ;)

Several hours later still needs a proper edge but a bit of Linseed Oil and Vinegar combined with elbow grease works well. And NO Not in the Nixiefreq @Med grease happy ending way either  :-DD

Call it a first pass cleanup but there is still life left in it.
::) You are a sucker for wood working tools aren't you Bean ?
Now how many Stanley 45's do I have, at least a couple and in their original boxes.  :P
Plus a 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7 and a few assorted rabbit, block and bullnose planes.

Tools, too many tools !  :scared:

BLASPHEMER!!!  Too many tools.   ::) :palm:  That is unpossible!  It's like too many counters, or too many oscilloscopes, or too many meters...   Too many tools is simply not a thing!   :P

-Pat
You missed lathes and welders !  :P
But I don't have a laser cutter or a 3d printer and I'm not gunna get either. Rabbit holes I ain't got time for.  :horse:
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #49649 on: February 14, 2020, 08:28:40 am »
I am trying to tell myself I don't 'need' a #7 as I am only doing this for fun and home projects it most likely makes more sense than a planer/thicknesser in my case. 4, 5, 7, block and a router plane is a sensible set I reckon  ;) Most of the other special Stanleys Electric Routers and other methods should cover.

Always room for a 3D printer too  >:D
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