Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14556156 times)

EggertEnjoyer123, Qw3rtzuiop, Vince, K0ELB, TERRA Operative and 21 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88200 on: April 15, 2021, 03:56:44 pm »
..... and might not realise the SPO2 is below 50% (seriously!)
I'm no physician, but my understanding is that that person will have some serious problems well before they get down to 50%!!

Speaking as an asthmatic who has seen a lot of my own SpO2 readings and been able to correlate them to how you feel at different readings I can confirm that. SpO2 < 90% you won't notice if you're sitting down, and you won't notice walking at a sedate pace but you would notice walking at a normal pace, SpO2 < 80% and any walking, even from your bed to the toilet, becomes hard work, < 70% and you won't even get to your feet.

Reliability and repeatability of the inexpensive 'stick on your finger' type SPO2 probes is, like probing with a meter or scope, all about technique. I've found the inexpensive probes to be as good as the hospital ones, both in terms of repeatability and accuracy, in direct comparison. Basically, that means that the hospital's £2000 non-invasive probes are as crappy as the £15 ones you can buy yourself. Gold standard is an actual arterial blood gas test which involves a junior doctor hunting around inside your wrist for the artery with a needle and hurts like fuck. If you are ever unlucky enough to need ABGs taken, try to get a woman to do the needle sticking - personal experience suggests that they are more competent, less painful, and most importantly if they can't get it 1st or second try have the humility to get a better colleague to do it rather than press on trying hopelessly again and again while the patient suffers.

Edit: Just checked the BTS guidelines for the treatment of acute asthma - if your SpO2 is less than 92% then they say treat with at least 6L/min oxygen and for someone suffering from an acute asthma attack they would admit you if they can't maintain an SpO2 > 92% with oxygen treatment and admit to ICU if ABGs show any significant change in blood pH. I know from experience that if your SpO2 is below 92% they take you from the ambulance straight into resuscitation (where there's a whole team ready to act now and there are always eyes on you even if you're apparently stable) rather than a cubicle.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 04:25:01 pm by Cerebus »
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 
The following users thanked this post: mnementh, Specmaster, mansaxel

Offline mansaxel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3554
  • Country: se
  • SA0XLR
    • My very static home page
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88201 on: April 15, 2021, 03:59:36 pm »
Considering a Fitbit Versa3 for that purpose.

EDIT: Also, just bought a DE-5000. Feel better already.

HTH, HAND.

Your friendly enabler

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88202 on: April 15, 2021, 04:03:20 pm »


And just like that... I have a Mac in the house again. After... ummm... fifteen years...? So far, really not that hard to figure out the differences... functionality seems essentially the same as Winblows, just have to figure out where they put the things you use. I like "The Mac Way" of handling multiple boot devices tho... much more sensible than anything I've seen from any other OS/hardware ecology. I'm sure there will come a long laundry list of quirks I love or hate, just as with any other OS I've used.  :-//

   

Currently just exploring the old HDDs and trying to decide what to do with the machine; Part of me wants to get a cheap SSD and stick it in here, so that INSTALL EL CAPITAN drive may need to hang around a bit longer rather than nuking it for Mint. I've tried several other variants of LINUX & BSD on this box while I waited for stuff to arrive; they all either crashed during install and refused to help me figure it out in any way, or they don't function properly once installed and I can't figure out if it's the underlying kernel or the GUI installed with that particular flavor.

At this point, I really don't care. Mint/Cinnamon just plain works. :-//

I am toying with the idea of replacing one of the optical drives with the DL-DVD/Blu-Ray drive I used for the original install tho... the 30" Cinema Display makes a compelling argument for using this as a backup movie machine.  :-DD This may require moving that SATA connector permanently, or finding an empty SATA port on the mainboard. We'll see.

mnem
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 04:09:21 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88203 on: April 15, 2021, 04:21:25 pm »
Time to open the Scotch bottle.

Doing battle with https://github.com/fra589/grbl-Mega-5X/wiki GRBL and pinmap comparisons between Duino/Clones/RAMPS/Old/New :palm:
I have however won the battle  :-+ UGS, Candle and Flatcam all in sync with Fusion 360/Eagle and my 3018 modding project.

My brain hurts just looking at that. I may bitch about Marlin, but at least it I can semi-navigate. Maybe my poor ol' reptile brain is finally setting like concrete... :o

mnem
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88204 on: April 15, 2021, 04:30:47 pm »
Have you ever considered doing this blinky stuff in 3D?

Yes, but never built one.

https://de.aliexpress.com/item/32888551895.html


Argh... that shit link has poisoned all my cookies for AliEx, and I don't know how to clear that shit out of Safari yet.  |O

I fucking hate you right now. ;)

mnem
Also, to a lesser extent, AliEx... >:(
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88205 on: April 15, 2021, 04:37:54 pm »
Went to start the PSU re-cap of the Type 422 and hit a big snag. The parts list, schematic, and capacitors I ordered in no way match the physical PSU I have on the bench.  :wtf: After a bit of research discovered at a higher S/N Tek did a complete redesign of the PSU. The manual I have reflects that redesign. It took a bit of searching but I finally found a manual that matches this PSU. And yep, completely different.  :palm: So I had to generate a new BOM and submitted an order to Mouser. Get the proper capacitors next week.   
The fun never ends, does it?  :-DD
It's my fault. Knowing that Tek is always upgrading equipment I should have checked the S/N range. I didn't so I need to kick my own arse.  :o

Sorry mate... didn't mean to infect you with my particular strain of "Tinkerer's Murphy Disorder"... but it appears I somehow have. Is it possible I've breached the metaphysical membrane here...? :o

mnem
*toddles off to do something... even if it's wrong...*
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19281
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88206 on: April 15, 2021, 04:42:41 pm »
..... and might not realise the SPO2 is below 50% (seriously!)
I'm no physician, but my understanding is that that person will have some serious problems well before they get down to 50%!!

Covid-19 continues to surprise physicians! Search for "silent hypoxemia" and you will find things like these...

"Patient RM, a 74-year-old man, tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, and COVID-19 was diagnosed. While he was receiving 15 L/min oxygen by reservoir mask, his SpO2 was 62%, and arterial blood gas revealed a PaO2 of 36 mm Hg, a PaCO2 of 34 mm Hg, and an SaO2 of 69%. On questioning, he consistently denied any difficulty with breathing (including while drinking). On examination, he was comfortable and not using accessory muscles of respiration."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7397783/

"But when Covid pneumonia first strikes, patients don’t feel short of breath, even as their oxygen levels fall. And by the time they do, they have alarmingly low oxygen levels and moderate-to-severe pneumonia (as seen on chest X-rays). Normal oxygen saturation for most persons at sea level is 94 to 100 percent; Covid pneumonia patients I saw had oxygen saturations as low as 50 percent.
To my amazement, most patients I saw said they had been sick for a week or so with fever, cough, upset stomach and fatigue, but they only became short of breath the day they came to the hospital. Their pneumonia had clearly been going on for days, but by the time they felt they had to go to the hospital, they were often already in critical condition."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

"In another example described to ABC News by Kiliddare, a patient in Pennsylvania did notice he was having trouble breathing -- but by then his oxygen levels had already dropped to a seriously dangerous 68%"
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/silent-hypoxics-docs-warn-coronavirus-link-mysterious-low/story?id=70366959

"While he practices at Littleton Regional Healthcare in New Hampshire, Levitan recently spent almost two weeks volunteering in the emergency room of a New York City hospital near the epicenter of the city's devastating outbreak. There he watched patients come into the emergency room with blood oxygen levels as low as 50%, so low they should have been incoherent, even unconscious. Normal blood oxygen saturation is between 95% and 100%, and anything below 90% is considered abnormal."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/health/happy-hypoxia-pulse-oximeter-trnd-wellness/index.html
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88207 on: April 15, 2021, 05:01:08 pm »
It was the radial cap. Which is odd, because it measured fine. Guess I really have to get round to buying an ESR meter one of these days...
The DE-5000 is a no-brainer. Really.
On my shortlist. Together with the Peak.   I've done scope ESR measurements in the past. Rather prefer a slightly more "in your face" method ;)
Second thumbs-up from me for the DE-5000. Best ESR meter I've owned.   McBryce.
The Peak kit is very nice and just works, not as capable all-round as the DE5000 but lower cost, small and automatic.

The DE-5000 is cheaper than the ESR-70/ESR70+; I have both. The LCR45 costs even more. I see that PEAK has come down on their prices; but not that much.  :-//

Bang/buck the DE-5000 is the best out there by an order of magnitude. I like it better than my ESR-70/ESR Plus, which I've had over a decade. It offers both ESR to several digits and  Tan δ, which parameter can be directly compared against a MFR's datasheet. Also, the LO DCR function can be a very useful diag tool.

Get the kit with the TL-21 & TL-22 adapters; optionally the AC adapter if they don't try to rape you on it. I haven't bothered because life of an alkaline battery is awesome with this thing, and the isolation inherent in battery operation is a complete no-brainer to me.

Typically, the DE-5000 can be had for ~US$90 bare, ~US$110 with the TL-21 & TL-22.

There is also a kit with fitted case if that floats your boat; it usually adds aboot $30-40 to the kit price. I've been tempted, but so far I just couldn't stomach that hideous shade of red, which appears to be the only color it comes in.



NAWTS, just an example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DER-EE-LCR-Meter-DE-5000-with-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23-and-Plastic-Case/224315687171

Cheers,

mnem
 :-DMM
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 05:29:21 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88208 on: April 15, 2021, 05:24:49 pm »
My eldest daughter just tested positive for Corona. Well, that sucks donkey balls.
Best of luck Ice-Tea, hope it's going to be a speedy recovery for your daughter. Hope it's not one of the variants, they are apparently no fun.

That pretty much sums it up for me too. Dunno what the health care situation is over there, but in the US any kind of COVID-related hospitalization means essentially bankruptcy even if you have insurance for most of the working classes, and is a death warrant for those without insurance.

"Sobering thought" doesn't even begin to cover it.

mnem
*sigh*
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88209 on: April 15, 2021, 05:25:41 pm »
..... and might not realise the SPO2 is below 50% (seriously!)
I'm no physician, but my understanding is that that person will have some serious problems well before they get down to 50%!!

Covid-19 continues to surprise physicians! Search for "silent hypoxemia" and you will find things like these...

"Patient RM, a 74-year-old man, tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, and COVID-19 was diagnosed. While he was receiving 15 L/min oxygen by reservoir mask, his SpO2 was 62%, and arterial blood gas revealed a PaO2 of 36 mm Hg, a PaCO2 of 34 mm Hg, and an SaO2 of 69%. On questioning, he consistently denied any difficulty with breathing (including while drinking). On examination, he was comfortable and not using accessory muscles of respiration."
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7397783/

"But when Covid pneumonia first strikes, patients don’t feel short of breath, even as their oxygen levels fall. And by the time they do, they have alarmingly low oxygen levels and moderate-to-severe pneumonia (as seen on chest X-rays). Normal oxygen saturation for most persons at sea level is 94 to 100 percent; Covid pneumonia patients I saw had oxygen saturations as low as 50 percent.
To my amazement, most patients I saw said they had been sick for a week or so with fever, cough, upset stomach and fatigue, but they only became short of breath the day they came to the hospital. Their pneumonia had clearly been going on for days, but by the time they felt they had to go to the hospital, they were often already in critical condition."
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/sunday/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html

"In another example described to ABC News by Kiliddare, a patient in Pennsylvania did notice he was having trouble breathing -- but by then his oxygen levels had already dropped to a seriously dangerous 68%"
https://abcnews.go.com/Health/silent-hypoxics-docs-warn-coronavirus-link-mysterious-low/story?id=70366959

"While he practices at Littleton Regional Healthcare in New Hampshire, Levitan recently spent almost two weeks volunteering in the emergency room of a New York City hospital near the epicenter of the city's devastating outbreak. There he watched patients come into the emergency room with blood oxygen levels as low as 50%, so low they should have been incoherent, even unconscious. Normal blood oxygen saturation is between 95% and 100%, and anything below 90% is considered abnormal."
https://edition.cnn.com/2020/05/06/health/happy-hypoxia-pulse-oximeter-trnd-wellness/index.html

Imagine what data we would have if doctors were forced to give as much of a shit about everyone’s conditions instead of this one...  :popcorn:
 
The following users thanked this post: mnementh

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88210 on: April 15, 2021, 05:27:28 pm »
It was the radial cap. Which is odd, because it measured fine. Guess I really have to get round to buying an ESR meter one of these days...
The DE-5000 is a no-brainer. Really.
On my shortlist. Together with the Peak.   I've done scope ESR measurements in the past. Rather prefer a slightly more "in your face" method ;)
Second thumbs-up from me for the DE-5000. Best ESR meter I've owned.   McBryce.
The Peak kit is very nice and just works, not as capable all-round as the DE5000 but lower cost, small and automatic.

The DE-5000 is cheaper than the ESR-70/ESR70+; I have both. The LCR45 costs even more. I see that PEAK has come down on their prices; but not that much.  :-//

Bang/buck the DE-5000 is the best out there by an order of magnitude. I like it better than my ESR-70/ESR Plus, which I've had over a decade. It offers both ESR to several digits and  Tan δ, which parameter can be directly compared against a MFR's datasheet. Also, the LO DCR function can be a very useful diag tool.

Get the kit with the TL-21 & TL-22 adapters; optionally the AC adapter if they don't try to rape you on it. I haven't bothered because life of an alkaline battery is awesome with this thing, and the isolation inherent in battery operation is a complete no-brainer to me.

Typically, the DE-5000 can be had for ~US$90 bare, ~US$110 with the TL-21 & TL-22.

There is also a kit with fitted case if that floats your boat; it usually adds aboot $30-40 to the kit price. I've been tempted, but so far I just couldn't stomach that hideous shade of red, which appears to be the only color it comes in.

[img height=240]https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/test-equipment-anonymous-(tea)-group-therapy-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=1211414;image/img]

NAWTS, just an example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DER-EE-LCR-Meter-DE-5000-with-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23-and-Plastic-Case/224315687171

Cheers,

mnem
 :-DMM

Peak has somewhat excellent reputation for support, calibration and repair. Worth paying extra for that in my mind.
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88211 on: April 15, 2021, 05:27:56 pm »
I had one of those baked spuds and some pork roast. Yumm.

mnem
 :=\
Baked spud and grated cheese, lovely grub  :)

Yebbutt, now I have too clean the cheese crumbs oot of my Mac...  :o

mnem
 :P
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 
The following users thanked this post: Specmaster

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88212 on: April 15, 2021, 05:44:36 pm »
The Peak kit is very nice and just works, not as capable all-round as the DE5000 but lower cost, small and automatic.
The DE-5000 is cheaper than the ESR-70/ESR70+; I have both. The LCR-45 costs even more. I see that PEAK has come down on their prices; but not that much.  :-//

Bang/buck the DE-5000 is the best out there by an order of magnitude. I like it better than my ESR-70/ESR Plus, which I've had over a decade. It offers both ESR to several digits and  Tan δ, which parameter can be directly compared against a MFR's datasheet. Also, the LO DCR function can be a very useful diag tool.

Get the kit with the TL-21 & TL-22 adapters; optionally the AC adapter if they don't try to rape you on it. I haven't bothered because life of an alkaline battery is awesome with this thing, and the isolation inherent in battery operation is a complete no-brainer to me.
Typically, the DE-5000 can be had for ~US$90 bare, ~US$110 with the TL-21 & TL-22.   

There is also a kit with fitted case if that floats your boat; it usually adds aboot $30-40 to the kit price. I've been tempted, but so far I just couldn't stomach that hideous shade of red, which appears to be the only color it comes in.

NAWTS, just an example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DER-EE-LCR-Meter-DE-5000-with-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23-and-Plastic-Case/224315687171

Cheers,

mnem
 :-DMM
Peak has somewhat excellent reputation for support, calibration and repair. Worth paying extra for that in my mind.
Yeah, sure if you live in the UK. The rest of the world, the cost of shipping makes it a moot point. Also... quite frankly... the ESR-70/ESR+ just does't have the resolution or half the features of the DE-5000.

LCR-45 I can't comment on; no hands-on experience. But demo videos quite frankly don't inspire confidence that it is materially better than the usual Cheap & Cheerful Chinese complete Tester; just better calibrated with a more extensive compensation table. Yes, that has value... but I still feel the DE-5000 is a better value overall.

I mean... if you have the money to throw at both, get both. But if only one... the DE-5000 for sure. It'll be your go-to in no time. There's a reason I left the ESR-70 in my trailer and brought the DE-5000, even tho it takes up 4x the space.

mnem
 :popcorn:
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88213 on: April 15, 2021, 05:48:11 pm »
..... so I'll be trying to rebuild it with parts from the new mov't.

Should keep me off the street
Possibly.

Quote
....and out of trouble for a while.  :-DD
Doubtful.

Watch out... I have a fatbike now. I could be knocking on your door in a fortnite...  >:D

mnem
This space for rent.
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2779
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88214 on: April 15, 2021, 05:59:51 pm »
It was the radial cap. Which is odd, because it measured fine. Guess I really have to get round to buying an ESR meter one of these days...
The DE-5000 is a no-brainer. Really.
On my shortlist. Together with the Peak.   I've done scope ESR measurements in the past. Rather prefer a slightly more "in your face" method ;)
Second thumbs-up from me for the DE-5000. Best ESR meter I've owned.   McBryce.
The Peak kit is very nice and just works, not as capable all-round as the DE5000 but lower cost, small and automatic.

The DE-5000 is cheaper than the ESR-70/ESR70+; I have both. The LCR45 costs even more. I see that PEAK has come down on their prices; but not that much.  :-//

Bang/buck the DE-5000 is the best out there by an order of magnitude. I like it better than my ESR-70/ESR Plus, which I've had over a decade. It offers both ESR to several digits and  Tan δ, which parameter can be directly compared against a MFR's datasheet. Also, the LO DCR function can be a very useful diag tool.

Get the kit with the TL-21 & TL-22 adapters; optionally the AC adapter if they don't try to rape you on it. I haven't bothered because life of an alkaline battery is awesome with this thing, and the isolation inherent in battery operation is a complete no-brainer to me.

Typically, the DE-5000 can be had for ~US$90 bare, ~US$110 with the TL-21 & TL-22.

There is also a kit with fitted case if that floats your boat; it usually adds aboot $30-40 to the kit price. I've been tempted, but so far I just couldn't stomach that hideous shade of red, which appears to be the only color it comes in.



NAWTS, just an example: https://www.ebay.com/itm/DER-EE-LCR-Meter-DE-5000-with-TL-21-TL-22-TL-23-and-Plastic-Case/224315687171

Cheers,

mnem
 :-DMM

Well that link is $159 not $110 (it's got a case but not $50 worth.
Over here a DE-5000 on ebay is about £85 bare plus possible tax and duty. On Amazon they are £140. All from unknown suppliers. Peak ESR 70 is £84 from the manufacturer.
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88215 on: April 15, 2021, 06:19:37 pm »
Yup... 84 quid (not USD) PLUS SHIPPING and Export. Do the math. My ESR-70/ESR+ cost me US$130 ten years ago direct from Peak, and that was to the US which doesn't have duty on almost anything. My DE-5000 cost me US$112 delivered with the TL-21, TL-22 & TL-23.

Yes, that link was for the kit with case; just an example. It adds ~US$40, just like I said.

mnem
 :-/O
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:51:20 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline Saskia

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2893
  • Country: de
  • you unlock this door with the key of imagination
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88216 on: April 15, 2021, 06:25:41 pm »
My eldest daughter just tested positive for Corona.

Well, that sucks donkey balls.

speedy recovery and no complications
 

Offline xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7496
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88217 on: April 15, 2021, 06:26:43 pm »
Preview pic from the 437B. Didn't notice the label details until just now.

 :-+
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
The following users thanked this post: factory, Kosmic

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88218 on: April 15, 2021, 06:29:07 pm »
Yeah, sure if you live in the UK. The rest of the world, the cost of shipping makes it a moot point. Also... quite frankly... the ESR-70/ESR+ just does't have the resolution or half the features of the DE-5000.

You don't need a lot of resolution for ESR. You need a finger in the air measurement. I refer to my ESR meter  :-DD



LCR-45 I can't comment on; no hands-on experience. But demo videos quite frankly don't inspire confidence that it is materially better than the usual Cheap & Cheerful Chinese complete Tester; just better calibrated with a more extensive compensation table. Yes, that has value... but I still feel the DE-5000 is a better value overall.

Couldn't disagree with this more.

I'll write an essay here as the Chinese component testers are pretty terrible as a whole. The Chinese LC meter specific variants are all derived from a paper that was written in the late 1980s about frequency based LC meters. Due to a clever bit of algebra, one reference capacitor and a differential frequency measurement technique you can get a pretty decent L or C measurement out of them. The original version required an external frequency counter and a BASIC program to derive the measurement.  Roll on a few years and someone worked out you could do this with a PIC microcontroller as the counter based on the reference PIC counter AN592 rev 1 version (1997) [1] and use one of the many floating point libraries appearing to get the answer out and write it to an HD44780 module. AADE made a commercial version of this eventually which used the internal comparator of later PICs as the signal conditioning from the analogue front end rather neatly. Of course in the 2000s the Chinese cloned all this and evolved the design from there.

But they are mostly, and I'm being polite here, fucking shit as there is no compensation or stability in their measurements at the best of time. Also on top of that the measurement is frequency dependent and there is absolutely no guarantee of any tolerances against the ranges as there is no calibration data.

There is a complete "componentless" version which is the common one everyone sees these days as a "transistor tester" but no that's just as bad. It is at best a finger in the air instrument. Even running the same instrument on the same part 2-3 times can see 20% variations.



So in comes Peak and says "I know we can do this better". So they did. What you have in the LCR45 is a precision programmable oscillator and measurement bridge with a 12-bit ADC up front in the MCU. It's not built like the above to a price point. Same goes for all of their products.  You're backed up with spare parts availability (can order displays / cases / labels / cables for them), traceable calibration with certificate, product lifecycle spanning 19 years on the LCR line, fixed price repair if you murder it. Oh and you can actually phone them up and talk to the guy who designed it if you have a problem.

Here it's £85 approx. Versus £82 for the DE-5000.

DER DE-5000 - literally 90% fuck knows. It's more shit from China, with two ASIC blobs on it, no calibration info (from what I could find) and zero support. Objectively it does have more buttons though and lots of buttons are really good (if you can remember what they all do)  :-DD.

But you're writing the Peak off (which is shipped from the US to start with) on the service options costing $40 on shipping which don't even exist for the DER DE-5000  :-//. If you blow it up or it goes out of cal, throw your entire investment in the bin which is more than the $40 in shipping!

[1] http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00592d.pdf
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:30:39 pm by bd139 »
 
The following users thanked this post: factory

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88219 on: April 15, 2021, 06:29:36 pm »
..... and might not realise the SPO2 is below 50% (seriously!)
I'm no physician, but my understanding is that that person will have some serious problems well before they get down to 50%!!

Speaking as an asthmatic who has seen a lot of my own SpO2 readings and been able to correlate them to how you feel at different readings I can confirm that. SpO2 < 90% you won't notice if you're sitting down, and you won't notice walking at a sedate pace but you would notice walking at a normal pace, SpO2 < 80% and any walking, even from your bed to the toilet, becomes hard work, < 70% and you won't even get to your feet.

Reliability and repeatability of the inexpensive 'stick on your finger' type SPO2 probes is, like probing with a meter or scope, all about technique. I've found the inexpensive probes to be as good as the hospital ones, both in terms of repeatability and accuracy, in direct comparison. Basically, that means that the hospital's £2000 non-invasive probes are as crappy as the £15 ones you can buy yourself. Gold standard is an actual arterial blood gas test which involves a junior doctor hunting around inside your wrist for the artery with a needle and hurts like fuck. If you are ever unlucky enough to need ABGs taken, try to get a woman to do the needle sticking - personal experience suggests that they are more competent, less painful, and most importantly if they can't get it 1st or second try have the humility to get a better colleague to do it rather than press on trying hopelessly again and again while the patient suffers.

Edit: Just checked the BTS guidelines for the treatment of acute asthma - if your SpO2 is less than 92% then they say treat with at least 6L/min oxygen and for someone suffering from an acute asthma attack they would admit you if they can't maintain an SpO2 > 92% with oxygen treatment and admit to ICU if ABGs show any significant change in blood pH. I know from experience that if your SpO2 is below 92% they take you from the ambulance straight into resuscitation (where there's a whole team ready to act now and there are always eyes on you even if you're apparently stable) rather than a cubicle.

I've had one of the Cheap & Cheerful Chinese fingertip SpO2 meters in my Band-Aid bin for over a decade, right next to the digital thermometer and Cheap & Cheerful Chinese BP Cuff. I've found that as long as you put it on left index or middle finger, results are very repeatable, and it seems to work as well for any member of our family.

Personal experience shows that as long as it indicates higher than ~95%SpO2, I feel no difference in any day-to-day activities. Any lower and I quickly feel similar fatigue and difficulty walking or dizziness similar to orthostatic hypotension whenever I try to move fast. I've only experienced this in cases of extreme bronchitis from cold/Flu.

Down in Tejas, early spring brings strong wind for days, which carries with it virus/bacteria laden dust from the plains. I would catch something very nearly pneumonia-like almost every year from it, and there is an uptick every year for MRSA cases this time of year in Central Tejas as well.    :scared:

mnem
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline Robert763

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2779
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88220 on: April 15, 2021, 06:32:35 pm »
The Peak kit is very nice and just works, not as capable all-round as the DE5000 but lower cost, small and automatic.
The DE-5000 is cheaper than the ESR-70/ESR70+; I have both. The LCR-45 costs even more. I see that PEAK has come down on their prices; but not that much.  :-//

Bang/buck the DE-5000 is the best out there by an order of magnitude. I like it better than my ESR-70/ESR Plus, which I've had over a decade. It offers both ESR to several digits and  Tan δ, which parameter can be directly compared against a MFR's datasheet. Also, the LO DCR function can be a very useful diag tool.

Get the kit with the TL-21 & TL-22 adapters; optionally the AC adapter if they don't try to rape you on it. I haven't bothered because life of an alkaline battery is awesome with this thing, and the isolation inherent in battery operation is a complete no-brainer to me.
Typically, the DE-5000 can be had for ~US$90 bare, ~US$110 with the TL-21 & TL-22. 

There is also a kit with fitted case if that floats your boat; it usually adds aboot $30-40 to the kit price. I've been tempted, but so far I just couldn't stomach that hideous shade of red, which appears to be the only color it comes in.



Cheers,

mnem
 :-DMM
Peak has somewhat excellent reputation for support, calibration and repair. Worth paying extra for that in my mind.
Yeah, sure if you live in the UK. The rest of the world, the cost of shipping makes it a moot point. Also... quite frankly... the ESR-70/ESR+ just does't have the resolution or half the features of the DE-5000.

LCR-45 I can't comment on; no hands-on experience. But demo videos quite frankly don't inspire confidence that it is materially better than the usual Cheap & Cheerful Chinese complete Tester; just better calibrated with a more extensive compensation table. Yes, that has value... but I still feel the DE-5000 is a better value overall.

I mean... if you have the money to throw at both, get both. But if only one... the DE-5000 for sure. It'll be your go-to in no time. There's a reason I left the ESR-70 in my trailer and brought the DE-5000, even tho it takes up 4x the space.

mnem
 :popcorn:

How much resolution do you need for ESR?
As far as capacitance goes 4 digit resolution is no use without accuracy.
Also the prices we have both quoted so far are for copies of the IET DE-5000. These have no proper specification. A genuine IET DE-5000  or even DER one is another matter.

If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

EDIT, got distracted while typing and BD139 had made a better response
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:40:07 pm by Robert763 »
 
The following users thanked this post: bd139

Offline AVGresponding

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4643
  • Country: england
  • Exploring Rabbit Holes Since The 1970s
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88221 on: April 15, 2021, 06:36:20 pm »
The PM 5193 arrived today, with bonus footprints on the box   :palm:

Fortunately this thing is made for the apocalypse, so despite devon_it_recycling's poor packing, and ParcelFarce's abuse, the only damage was some dents and a bit of plastic flaked off one of the feet.

Functionally, the working bits are the pulse/TTL generator, and the modulation section, the CPU, the display.
The non-functional things are the normal output, the RAM, and any waveforms. Oh, and the internal ref is all over the place with a waveform best described as "interesting".

Haven't cracked the case yet, but looks initially like one or more of the power rails is kaput, amongst other things.

This was supposed to be a long weekend, with Friday booked off, but I have to do some overtime on Saturday and Sunday now, so it seems the PM 5193 will have to wait.   >:(



-snip-
DER DE-5000 - literally 90% fuck knows. It's more shit from China, with two ASIC blobs on it, no calibration info (from what I could find) and zero support. Objectively it does have more buttons though and lots of buttons are really good (if you can remember what they all do)  :-DD.

But you're writing the Peak off (which is shipped from the US to start with) on the service options costing $40 on shipping which don't even exist for the DER DE-5000  :-//. If you blow it up or it goes out of cal, throw your entire investment in the bin which is more than the $40 in shipping!

[1] http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00592d.pdf

I thought the DER was Japanese? And the Peak UK?   :-//
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 
The following users thanked this post: bd139, Kosmic

Offline bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 23018
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88222 on: April 15, 2021, 06:41:14 pm »
I thought the DER was Japanese? And the Peak UK?   :-//

DER is Japanese design apparently but the LCR meter is made in Taiwan (China might argue that's China!  :-DD) out of Chinese sourced parts.

Peak is UK designed, UK assembled, EU manufactured, out of Chinese sourced parts  :-DD

Good luck with the Philips. Sounds like it might be fun to repair that one though.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:43:04 pm by bd139 »
 
The following users thanked this post: AVGresponding

Offline Specmaster

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14483
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88223 on: April 15, 2021, 06:44:41 pm »
Further to my earlier posting with the E4B flying command plane, I have come across this that explains a bit more about what it is and why they (4 such planes) are so important.



« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:53:48 pm by Specmaster »
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
The following users thanked this post: bd139

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88224 on: April 15, 2021, 06:45:55 pm »
Yeah, sure if you live in the UK. The rest of the world, the cost of shipping makes it a moot point. Also... quite frankly... the ESR-70/ESR+ just does't have the resolution or half the features of the DE-5000.

You don't need a lot of resolution for ESR. You need a finger in the air measurement. I refer to my ESR meter  :-DD   

LCR-45 I can't comment on; no hands-on experience. But demo videos quite frankly don't inspire confidence that it is materially better than the usual Cheap & Cheerful Chinese complete Tester; just better calibrated with a more extensive compensation table. Yes, that has value... but I still feel the DE-5000 is a better value overall.

Couldn't disagree with this more.

I'll write an essay here as the Chinese component testers are pretty terrible as a whole. The Chinese LC meter specific variants are all derived from a paper that was written in the late 1980s about frequency based LC meters. Due to a clever bit of algebra, one reference capacitor and a differential frequency measurement technique you can get a pretty decent L or C measurement out of them. The original version required an external frequency counter and a BASIC program to derive the measurement.  Roll on a few years and someone worked out you could do this with a PIC microcontroller as the counter based on the reference PIC counter AN592 rev 1 version (1997) [1] and use one of the many floating point libraries appearing to get the answer out and write it to an HD44780 module. AADE made a commercial version of this eventually which used the internal comparator of later PICs as the signal conditioning from the analogue front end rather neatly. Of course in the 2000s the Chinese cloned all this and evolved the design from there.

But they are mostly, and I'm being polite here, fucking shit as there is no compensation or stability in their measurements at the best of time. Also on top of that the measurement is frequency dependent and there is absolutely no guarantee of any tolerances against the ranges as there is no calibration data.

There is a complete "componentless" version which is the common one everyone sees these days as a "transistor tester" but no that's just as bad. It is at best a finger in the air instrument. Even running the same instrument on the same part 2-3 times can see 20% variations.



So in comes Peak and says "I know we can do this better". So they did. What you have in the LCR45 is a precision programmable oscillator and measurement bridge with a 12-bit ADC up front in the MCU. It's not built like the above to a price point. Same goes for all of their products.  You're backed up with spare parts availability (can order displays / cases / labels / cables for them), traceable calibration with certificate, product lifecycle spanning 19 years on the LCR line, fixed price repair if you murder it. Oh and you can actually phone them up and talk to the guy who designed it if you have a problem.

Here it's £85 approx. Versus £82 for the DE-5000.

DER DE-5000 - literally 90% fuck knows. It's more shit from China, with two ASIC blobs on it, no calibration info (from what I could find) and zero support. Objectively it does have more buttons though and lots of buttons are really good (if you can remember what they all do)  :-DD.

But you're writing the Peak off (which is shipped from the US to start with) on the service options costing $40 on shipping which don't even exist for the DER DE-5000  :-//. If you blow it up or it goes out of cal, throw your entire investment in the bin which is more than the $40 in shipping!

[1] http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/appnotes/00592d.pdf

I am not writing off the ESR-70. I just feel it is an inferior tool for diag-ing electronics that need repair, plus a capable home lab instrument as well, which nobody would suggest is true of the ESR-70. I own both. I kept the DE-5000 with me when I crossed the border. That is how much better I like the DE-5000. Dunno how much more simply I can state it. :-//

Don't get me wrong... I was tickled pink back in the day when I bought my ESR-70... I pre-ordered and literally waited 2 months for the ESR+ upgrade model to be available. And it was my go-to instrument for years when troubleshooting, part of which was time working as a repair technician in a shop.

But now, compared side by side with the DE-5000, and based on numerous threads right here on eevBlog, I have absolutely zero reservations aboot recommending the DE-5000 over the ESR-70/ESR+. None whatsoever. That is my considered opinion as someone who has used both, and used the ESR-70 in a commercial repair environment where time is the enemy.

Cheers,

mnem
 :-DMM
« Last Edit: April 15, 2021, 06:47:56 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf