Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14550977 times)

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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88300 on: April 16, 2021, 07:43:10 am »
Yokogawa DL1200A

Okay, as promised and even though it is getting late here (01:22 MEST),
here is the teardown and a little testing of the Yokogawa DL1200A.

First of all: I'm impressed. Why? Well, because of this:

This is the box. Looking suspiciously small and I'm fearing the worst.  >:(


Let's open the box and yes: no additional packaging material. Zero! None!  :wtf:  :rant:  :palm:


Here is what I've written to the seller and the answer (Google translator is your friend):

Hallo XXX,

das DL1200A ist heute angekommen, Danke Dir.
Allerdings muss ich sagen, dass ich enttäuscht bin über die Art und Weise, wie es verpackt war. Einfach so ein empfindliches Meßgerät in eine Schachtel zu packen, ohne Dämmmaterial, um es gegen Stöße etc. zu schützen, ist grob fahrläassig. :-( Auf die Schachtel zu schreiben "Vorsicht! Zerbrechlich!" reicht nicht und wird in der Regel ignoriert. Das Gerät konnte sich in der Schachtel auch frei bewegen, normalerweise ein Garant dafür, dass es in mehreren Teilen beim Empfänger ankommt.
Ich habe es getestet und es funktioniert. Allerdings ist dieser Umstand nur zwei Dingen zu verdanken: Glück und der Tatsache, dass die japanischen Ingenieure da ganze Arbeit geleistet haben.
Ich wollte eigentlich genau das vermeiden und die Tatsache, dass Du meine Bitte für eine gute Verpackung ignoriert hast, macht mich wütend und traurig zugleich.
Bitte, falls Du wieder so ein Gerät versenden solltest, verpacke es gut! Ausreichend große, stabile Schachtel, dick polstern und so in der Schachtel platzieren, dass es von ALLEN Seiten dick mit Polstermaterial umgeben ist UND es sich in der Schachtel nicht mehr bewegen kann.

Traurige Grüße,

BU508A


The answer:
Hallo BU508A, entschuldige bitte ich dachte die Verpackung wäre ok so. Ich merke mir das für das nächste Mal. Freut mich dass es trotzdem funktioniert hat.
Ist meiner Unkenntnis zu verdanken.
Trotzdem viel Spass damit.
Liebe Grüsse
XXX


 :-// :palm: :(

First thing I did, I've shaked it a bit. Good. No rattling. The feet, plastics and connectors are looking okay.
Hope increases a bit. Here are the pictures from the outside of it.
Front, back and bottom:



Some details:
type label, BNC inputs, thingie, handle



Very impressive, this thing is build very sturdy. Good. Hope increases a bit more.

Let's open it and see, what's inside.
First, the electronics for the CRT. It is a bit dusty but besides that very clean. No rust.



HV area. I took those pictures to scare a bit bd139.  :-DD


The CRT and some labels, including a date code. This DL1200A has been built in Jan. 1991, 30 years ago.


There are several boards for the digital part, pity, they are mostly hidden and I didn't want to take it apart further.




Top view of the PSU, very compact design:


But is it working?
Let's find out.
First boot and CH1 and CH2. Looks good! This thing has survived the trip from Munich to me without any damage so far!
Very impressive!  :-+


The display is very crisp and all the functions seems to work!
I've connected my R&S dual arb generator  (type: ADS) to the scope and fooled around a little bit.
Signals are sine and triangle, 1kHz, 2Vpp. Sorry for the blurred pictures,
sometimes the cam did not focus on the display and I was too lazy to take new pictures.


I hope you've enjoyed this little teardown and testing.
I think, I've fallen in love with those Yokogawa scopes. Cute things, a bit unusual in their handling but not illogical.

But now it's bedtime, really tired at 02:14 MEST here ...  :=\


Thanks for this teardown. Was an interesting read  :-+. Certainly a space efficient scope that  :-DD. Glad to see it arrived unharmed despite the packaging. I had a tektronix 475 similarly packed once that also survived  :palm:
 
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Online Ice-Tea

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88301 on: April 16, 2021, 08:17:23 am »
Well, at least he did write "be carefull" on the package.  :-DD
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88302 on: April 16, 2021, 08:31:43 am »
Well, at least he did write "be carefull" on the package.  :-DD

Yes, or, in other words: "Please! Kick me around!"

 >:( :palm:
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88303 on: April 16, 2021, 08:58:23 am »
Heads up for the UK boys at least, it seems this weekend there is another £1 max selling fee weekend, I have just received my offer.
Who let Murphy in?

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Offline beanflying

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88304 on: April 16, 2021, 09:12:47 am »
This is not a bad deal if you need a quality RTD as a reference eBay auction: #333827379223 If you are looking to pair it with non Fluke just check out the Ro first or you will need to apply a fudge to the results when you get to uber accuracy.

Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88305 on: April 16, 2021, 09:27:36 am »
sorry, could not resist.
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88306 on: April 16, 2021, 10:01:36 am »
Bored?
Want to fiddle around with some RF black magic?

Shahriar from The Signal Path will help you out.  :-DD

“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88307 on: April 16, 2021, 10:18:13 am »
Heads up for the UK boys at least, it seems this weekend there is another £1 max selling fee weekend, I have just received my offer.

Thanks for the heads up.  Got mine too.

Listing mostly Lego this weekend  :-DD
 
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88308 on: April 16, 2021, 10:26:10 am »
protect your bare feet!  :-DD
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 
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Offline tonyalbus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88309 on: April 16, 2021, 10:28:47 am »
Power Supply time this weekend

I have seen people trying the 6006. so i ordered the 6018 , 1080Watts  8)

And a new 'Sleep-over' borrow from ELEshop.nl / Eleshop.eu
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 10:30:43 am by tonyalbus »
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Offline tautech

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88310 on: April 16, 2021, 10:31:59 am »
Bored?
Want to fiddle around with some RF black magic?

Shahriar from The Signal Path will help you out.  :-DD

capt bullshot should know the answer to the viewers puzzle if he's played with his SVA enough.
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88311 on: April 16, 2021, 10:35:59 am »
Power Supply time this weekend

And a new 'Sleep-over' borrow from ELEshop.nl / Eleshop.eu

You can daisy chain units of these together to a max of 500 V !
Avid Rabid Hobbyist
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88312 on: April 16, 2021, 10:57:14 am »
protect your bare feet!  :-DD

Haha this is all fortunately bagged and boxed already  :phew:
 

Offline BU508A

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88313 on: April 16, 2021, 11:00:59 am »
protect your bare feet!  :-DD

Haha this is all fortunately bagged and boxed already  :phew:

Good luck. May dumb and/or untrustworthy people avoid your auctions.
“Chaos is found in greatest abundance wherever order is being sought. It always defeats order, because it is better organized.”            - Terry Pratchett -
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88314 on: April 16, 2021, 11:15:45 am »
protect your bare feet!  :-DD

Haha this is all fortunately bagged and boxed already  :phew:

Good luck. May dumb and/or untrustworthy people avoid your auctions.

Yeah plenty of them around. Thank you for the blessing :)

I am sending everything signed for these days even cheap items.
 

Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88315 on: April 16, 2021, 11:30:50 am »
Bored?
Want to fiddle around with some RF black magic?

Shahriar from The Signal Path will help you out.  :-DD

capt bullshot should know the answer to the viewers puzzle if he's played with his SVA enough.

What he had shown looks just like an effect I know from FFTs: The signal "hops" from one output bin to the next, and kind of disappears between the bins (it's still there if you sum up the bins correctly). This was my first thought, but couldn't be the correct answer since the VNA doesn't use an FFT over that size of span. IMO the correct answer is in the comments of the video: The VNA uses 201 points only for quite a large span, resulting in some 100MHz spacing between the points, while the YTF (Yig tuned filter) has a bandwidth of less than 100MHz (a quick google showed, one can get them from 10MHz BW on). So the the measured frequency points miss the center frequency of the YTF, resulting in reduced amplitude. That's just the joy of discrete frequencies and digital instruments. A fully analog VNA (one wouldn't need an VNA here, a scalar network analyzer would do just fine) wouldn't show that behaviour.


Regarding the "stump the experts part": I've got no idea what's wrong with the setup. To me it looks like the analyzer gets out of sync with the received signal when he increases the sample size. Look at the constellation diagram, the "dots" start to rotate, IMO this is a sign for the receiver carrier frequency is slightly off the transmitter carrier frequency. I don't know how this is supposed to work with these instruments, which way they recover the carrier or if they need a common reference for transmitter and receiver, so I can't tell what wrong here.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 11:43:02 am by capt bullshot »
Safety devices hinder evolution
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88316 on: April 16, 2021, 11:42:19 am »
Want to cause a feeding frenzy in 3 easy steps? There's a guy on the Facebook Tek Group in Lowell, Masshole (about 4 hours away) giving away for free a fully functional Type 535A with a CA plug-in. Must pick up, no ship.

Even if my wings weren't clipped I'd be tempted but would pass. Already have one plus I keep trying to convince myself that I have no room. And after my disastrous last road trip I'm a little gun shy.

But I am tempted.  :P :-DD 

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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88317 on: April 16, 2021, 11:53:29 am »
Well it can't be worse than last time  :-DD

First batch of lego listed  :phew:.

Thinking about flogging that FT-818ND. As much as it's nice I'm not going to use it. In fact mostly it got used for listening in to heathrow tower when i was bored.
 
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Offline PA0PBZ

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88318 on: April 16, 2021, 12:08:46 pm »
And a new 'Sleep-over' borrow from ELEshop.nl / Eleshop.eu

After what happened to your previous guest I'm not so sure about the 'Sleep-over' thing. :-DD
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88319 on: April 16, 2021, 12:13:20 pm »
Yes that's an explanation reserved for wives  :popcorn:
 
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Offline med6753

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88320 on: April 16, 2021, 12:28:54 pm »
Yes that's an explanation reserved for wives  :popcorn:

I want to be a fly on the wall when the explanation is attempted and how well it is received.

I suspect it will go over like a fart in church.   :-DD
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88321 on: April 16, 2021, 01:20:43 pm »
If you have no capacitance meter a genuine DE-5000 is a good choice. If you already have a good LCR meter the ESR 70 is a good option.

If you have a good LCR meter why would you need a ESR70 ? smaller ? easier to manipulate and take less place on the bench ?
To measure ESR  :-DD
I said LCR meter not LCR ESR meter  your other points are a good reasons too.

ESR is the same as the series resistance (Rs). Normally a good LCR meter can measure series resistance adequately.

From IET LCR primer (https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/application_notes/030122%20IET%20LCR%20PRIMER%201st%20Edition.pdf)



I never heard of "LCR ESR meter", do you have a example?

Normally, modern LCR meter measure impedance and shouldn't have any problem giving you Rs (ESR). A lot of ESR meter actually estimate Rs using different techniques and that's why they can't measure anything else.

I suspect what he meant was a LCR/ESR meter; as in a single device which combines the two functions. These are common nowadays, they weren't always.

When ESR meters as commonly used in electronics repair were first devised, they showed two parameters: Capacitance and ESR. They worked on capacitors, period.

Some LCR Meters, particularly older laboratory units, use a substitution bridge to determine the value of the DUT and don't actually offer ESR or Tan δ parameters.

It is only later models which can use the magic of cheap microprocessors and multiple ADCs which can offer all the above in a single device, even giving all these parameters in one test.

Or is that not the question you were asking...?

mnem
 :popcorn:

It would be really surprising to find a LCR meter that is not able to measure Rs. Even if they have different name, ESR is equal to Rs. All LCR meters can measure Rs. Even the old one.

Personally, I think ESR meters are useless when you have a good LCR meter. Maybe ESR meters have better range ?

I'm not sure why people tend to believe ESR meters actually measure something that LCR meters can't. The LCR meter is the superior instrument, ESR meter only measure a subset (Rs and if you are lucky Cs) of what a LCR meter can do.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:12:06 pm by Kosmic »
 

Online xrunner

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88322 on: April 16, 2021, 01:57:40 pm »
Here's the first pic dump for the hp 437B power meter. As you can see on the serial number label - it was made in the U.K., a nice surprise. The meter is very clean, just a little fine dust at the back on the top PCB, and virtually none on the bottom PCB. The front panel has a nice shiny rf shield that looks as shiny as the day it came off the assembly line. The top and bottom covers have an rf shielding coating applied inside.

The system uses an intel 80C51BH microcontroller. The top PCB has eight red LEDs that can show error conditions, otherwise LEDs 5 - 8 are flashing continuously. The display can also show error codes, so presumably the LEDs would be used to find the error code if the display failed. The service manual has the secret decoding-ring table.

The foot-feet are missing, but I already have a stash of them on-hand. The battery checks out good at 3.2V (but may replace ...). Front N connector shows no signs of abuse. All-in-all very clean.

A minor problem is that the relative indication meter has a loose dial plate, which should be easy to repair. It's probably due to old cracked adhesive. I will show those steps in a coming post.

One of the parameters I can check without the sensor (8481A on order) is the cal reference output. It's specified to be 50 MHz +/- 500 kHz  (a wide tolerance) and 1.0 mW (0.0 dBm) +/- 0.7%. I'll be looking at that closer, but it does appear initially to be very close to correct.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2021, 02:47:28 pm by xrunner »
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 
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Offline Cerebus

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88323 on: April 16, 2021, 02:44:11 pm »
In the early '50s, I was given Phenobarb, which may have worked, but gave me heart palpitations.

I think you've misremembered. That would have been ephedrine and phenobarbitol in combination. Ephedrine to treat the asthma, phenobarbitol to counter the methamphetamine like effects of the ephedrine, but only on the behavioural side of things and then only poorly; you still get all the somatic bad side effects of the ephedrine (high blood pressure, palpitations, sweating, insomnia, trembling and many more). I too was fed that evil combination in my youth.

The modern replacement for ephedrine, given when other things aren't working, is aminophylline (theophylline) and they hook you up to a cardiac monitor while they are giving you the loading dose and for a day or so until they are sure they have got the dose right. The therapeutic index (the difference between and effective dose and a dangerous dose: LD50/ED50) of aminophyline is about 3, one of the lowest of any drug in use (For cocaine it's 15, for morphine 70). i.e. Take three pills instead of the one you're supposed to and it'll probably kill you. That this has replaced ephedrine tells you all you need to know about the safety of ephedrine.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #88324 on: April 16, 2021, 02:58:30 pm »

I suspect what he meant was a LCR/ESR meter; as in a single device which combines the two functions. These are common nowadays, they weren't always.

When ESR meters as commonly used in electronics repair were first devised, they showed two parameters: Capacitance and ESR. They worked on capacitors, period.

Some LCR Meters, particularly older laboratory units, use a substitution bridge to determine the value of the DUT and don't actually offer ESR or Tan δ parameters.

It is only later models which can use the magic of cheap microprocessors and multiple ADCs which can offer all the above in a single device, even giving all these parameters in one test.

Or is that not the question you were asking...?

mnem
 :popcorn:

It would be really surprising to find a LCR meter that is not able to measure Rs. Even if they have different name, ESR is equal to Rs. All LCR meters can measure Rs. Even the old one.

Personally, I think ESR meters are useless when you have a good LCR meter. Maybe ESR meters have better range ?

I'm not sure why people tend to believe ESR meters actually measure something that LCR meters can't. The LCR meter is the superior instrument, ESR meter only measure a subset (Rs and if you are lucky Cs) of what a LCR meter can do.

I think it's the test parameters, and the inconvenience. ESR meters typically operate at one of several... well, I can't even call it a standard, as there really is no such thing... lets call it "commonly used" frequencies dependent upon capacitance range, such that results from one design of ESR meter are comparable to another.

Calculating it from Rs means knowing what frequency the LCR meter is running at right now, with this DUT, and it means that while you're diag-ing a PCB, every time you have to stop probing, pick up a pencil, and do some math to determine whether the cap is healthy or not.

ESR as it is used on a repair bench boils all that down to a simpler, more repeatable result of ESR vs Capacitance which you can just eyeball, gauge whether it's reasonable, and move on to the next suspect component. Having used the DE-5000 for a couple years now, and being able to compare results from both test functions, I find that the Tan δ function is much more reliable as far as giving a definitive Yes/No answer, simply because if you aren't sure based on the internal "chart" one develops when using any such device, you can usually find this parameter in a MFR's datasheet.

The entire table of "acceptable ESR values" that people refer to is based on a chart created by Dick Smith decades ago, which unfortunately didn't include a LOT of today's Low and Ultra-Low ESR capacitor product lines. So what has evolved since is kindof a mishmash of both. That in and of itself is the main reason ESR as measured by an ESR meter is pretty useless from an enginerding standpoint.

That is also, I think, part of the reason Robert and I butted heads on this so hard (and keep doing so)... he's a hardcore engineer who has kept up with his professional development, so has a lot invested in knowing what he's doing, while I'm a retired engineer who was (a) never really that good at any of it except keeping several hundred circuits from a design in my head and (2) had to fall back on service & repair for my livelihood because I couldn't hack the modern corporate crazy-factory that is commercial/industrial engineering.  :-//

Cheers,

mnem
 :popcorn:

alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 
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