Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Vince]

I don’t think I posted a picture of this one but I picked it up locally a while ago.

First order of business, is there a recommended silver solder for working on the ceramic strip mounted parts that’s in current manufacture or do I need to be on the lookout for old Tektronix stock?

Med has is view, I have mine !     Both are 100% compatible though, as I am about to explain 

Here goes :

As per the service manual :

" Solder used on ceramic strips should contain ABOUT 3% silver ".  So the actual percentage not critical. Just take any silver solder... IIRC when I went shopping for mine on Farnell, you would find solder with silver content in the range of 2 to 3%.

Also :

" Use a 40 to 75 iron, with a 1/8" wedge shape tip ". So they don't like high power irons...hmmm..

Also :

" Ordinary solder can be used occasionally without damage to the ceramic terminal strips. " So, it's not the end of the world.

Also, and this is the most interesting bit I find, that wraps up everything :

" However, if ordinary solder is used repeatedly, or if excessive is applied (ie EVEN when using silver solder ! ), then the solder-to-ceramic bon may be broken ".

So.... what I understand from all that :

- What the root problem is, is not a chemical recipe that would REQUIRE silver content for the ceramic strips to be happy. Rather, what damages the ceramic strips is too much heat /temperature for too long. Tek using silver solder (lower melting point than regular 60/40) AND recommending a low power iron on top of that, is them trying make everything they can to reduce the temperature applied to the strip. That is all there is to it I think.

From that we can conclude :

- If Med never had a problem it's probably because 1) he does rework the same joints 10 times over and over, as why would he need to anyway. 2) IIRC he said the other day his Hakko station was good for everythgin he does however it was showing its limit when used on ceramic strips, was sturggling a bit. Which means his station was unable to maintain teh set temperature... which is precisely what Tek wanted to achieve when using a low power iron (which back then would not be temp regulated I assume, so a low power iron would therefore not be able to maintain a high temp on the strips).


So... to wrap it up, I would say :

1) You may have  a better iron than Med's Hakko, so your may be able to hold the tip temps better and therefore more likely to damage/Stress the bonds.

2) No using regular solder will not make the strips explode or suicide, it's not the end of the world.

3) Silver solder is readily available and modern iron are temp controlled. So why not just do the right thing to make sure all stars line-up, for maximum peace of mind : get some silver solder, 3%, you don't need much ot it anyway so cost is irrelevant. Then lower the temp on your iron to match the lower melting point of the silver solder as that's why we are using silver solder to begin with !  If you have a metcal then get a tip set for a lower temp, it's available.

[Cerebus]

I don’t think I posted a picture of this one but I picked it up locally a while ago.



I need to spend some quality time downstairs going through Tektronix gear especially once it gets a bit colder.  First order of business, is there a recommended silver solder for working on the ceramic strip mounted parts that’s in current manufacture or do I need to be on the lookout for old Tektronix stock?

Trust me. You don't need it. Standard 60/40 will work just fine as long as you don't go crazy. It will mix easily with the silver solder already present. I have NEVER had a ceramic strip delaminate and I've done hundreds of connections this way. 

Edit....also, I have a complete parts unit so if you need something just ask.

What kind of a way is that for a TEA member to behave? Call that enablement?

Of course he needs a reel of 2% silver solder. He needs to hunt some down at a bargain price, grab the very last reel and then crow to the rest of us about what a bargain he got. Then every time he solders something he needs to post a picture to TEAgram (i.e. here) pointing out that the particular shininess of the joints is down to the bargain reel of silver sold he lucked on.

[Neper]

Even better is a non-interference design like the FIAT JTD 1.9 120hp which was also used in the Vectra I used to have. Despite FIAT it's a very reliable engine.

The 1.9 litre common rail diesel? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that engine originally developed by Alfa Romeo before the takeover by Fiat?

[Cerebus]

The NiCd's out of the 212. Don't think zapping them is gonna help. They are FUBAR. Done for. Tits up dead.  Luckily the leakage is contained. No damage.

I'm gonna go with the NiMH option. Amazon has plenty of them to chose from.

One of the things that's worth noting there is what a nice job those end caps have done in containing the grolly. There was no hint, beyond natural suspicion, of them being so far gone until the end caps came off. Sort of thing one could, if one had the wherewithall, 3D print to retrofit to existing battery packs in other things to keep the crap in check should the evil event happen.

[bd139]

Even better is a non-interference design like the FIAT JTD 1.9 120hp which was also used in the Vectra I used to have. Despite FIAT it's a very reliable engine.

The 1.9 litre common rail diesel? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that engine originally developed by Alfa Romeo before the takeover by Fiat?

If it’s a 1.3 variant of that engine it’s a fucking turd. Absolute shit show beyond all compare. I owned one.

[Cerebus]

- What the root problem is, is not a chemical recipe that would REQUIRE silver content for the ceramic strips to be happy. Rather, what damages the ceramic strips is too much heat /temperature for too long. Tek using silver solder (lower melting point than regular 60/40) AND recommending a low power iron on top of that, is them trying make everything they can to reduce the temperature applied to the strip. That is all there is to it I think.

No, the issue is that the silver plating on the ceramic strips will dissolve into the solder if there isn't already silver in the mix. It still will with silver in the solder, but much more slowly, A small quantity (2-3%) of silver has little, if any, effect on the eutectic point of solder.

[AVGresponding]

Even better is a non-interference design like the FIAT JTD 1.9 120hp which was also used in the Vectra I used to have. Despite FIAT it's a very reliable engine.

The 1.9 litre common rail diesel? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that engine originally developed by Alfa Romeo before the takeover by Fiat?

If it’s a 1.3 variant of that engine it’s a fucking turd. Absolute shit show beyond all compare. I owned one.

My bad, I meant Alfa Romeo, not FIAT. Still, given they have a similar (well deserved) reputation for unreliability, I stand by my use of the word "despite"...   

[mnementh]

Lead-tin silver bearing solder is pretty hard to buy fresh anymore... and the tin/silver/copper alloys they make now melt around 220°C vs ~185°C for proper 60/40. If you want to stick with silver-bearing solder, you're going to have to risk buying NOS lead/tin/silver to keep the temp nice & low.

Interestingly, you can still buy Kester 44 (hopefully nice & fresh, as I'd expect them to have some fair turnover) direct off Amazon.ca for ~$50/lb:

https://www.amazon.ca/Kester-Solder-24-6040-0027-Activated-Rosin/dp/B0032UVNJW

https://www.amazon.ca/KESTER-SOLDER-32117-24-6040-0027-Diameter/dp/B00068IJPO/

I'm not sure if there is any material difference between these two listings; both appear to be the same Kester number, and both sold and shipped by Amazon.ca. 

mnem
 

[Martin.M]

First order of business, is there a recommended silver solder for working on the ceramic strip mounted parts that’s in current manufacture or do I need to be on the lookout for old Tektronix stock?

please look at first if there is a roll with silver solder inside mounted in the scope.
It was common to all of them to have a solder mounted inside. 

310A is very cute, the book folding chassis.
There are some capacitors inside what need a test.

[Vince]

Can you post a picture of the pens they used. If they are the ones that I think, there are actually sources available from a completely different rabbit hole hobby.

McBryce.

Close-up pics below. Took one of the pens out and measured it more accurately, using calipers this time.  I would say they are 23,25mm long by 4,9mm in diameter.

A source in Germany for them.
http://www.lass-shop.de/epages/63686166.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63686166/Products/%22US%20017.01%22

From this thread on the UKVRR forum. https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=142034

David

Wow, thanks ! 

This forum thread has everything I need indeed ! 

This German shop has some for sale that do the job apparently ! A web site selling small accessories for medical equipment ?! Whatever, as long as their pens work on my GOULD I a happy !!!     Medical stuff, was that the hobby you had in mind Bryce  ?

Forum also helps with the paper roll, saying any stationary shop will do, just need to shop for the correct width ! 

Even more interesting... it says that some of these 16XX series scopes DID come with a THERMAL Printer instead of the plotter !  Even said that when GOULD swapped the plotter for a thermal printer, the H/W only required a F/W update !

Even better... shall I come across one of these thermal printers, they say the thermal paper for it is already sorted out : it's the same as that used on the French " Minitel " terminal way back when !!  Better... a guy on that forum said he grabbed a shit load of these paper roll and is happy to offer some ! 


wow so I am all sorted then ?! Just need to fork out 22 Euros plus shipping to buy a set of pens from this German shop, and when I run out of paper I can just search for it at regular stationary shops, easy ! 


Thank you chaps, what would I do without you !!! 

Or maybe I should rather HATE you instead ?! I am torn ! I mean, if I can get fresh consumables for this plotter, it will work like new and then there will be NO WAY in hell I would want to sell it, I would just be playing with the thing all day long !   

[Vince]

- What the root problem is, is not a chemical recipe that would REQUIRE silver content for the ceramic strips to be happy. Rather, what damages the ceramic strips is too much heat /temperature for too long. Tek using silver solder (lower melting point than regular 60/40) AND recommending a low power iron on top of that, is them trying make everything they can to reduce the temperature applied to the strip. That is all there is to it I think.

No, the issue is that the silver plating on the ceramic strips will dissolve into the solder if there isn't already silver in the mix. It still will with silver in the solder, but much more slowly,

Interesting ! I wonder though why Tek didn't even hint at that even though they had a special paragraph in the manuel warning about the soldering of teh strips. Seems odd.

A small quantity (2-3%) of silver has little, if any, effect on the eutectic point of solder.

You have to be wrong... it's Tautech a few years back who told me I would just fall in love with the lower melting point of the silver solder. I remember vividly.
Tautech is never wrong. Tautech please show up.

[bd139]

Even better is a non-interference design like the FIAT JTD 1.9 120hp which was also used in the Vectra I used to have. Despite FIAT it's a very reliable engine.

The 1.9 litre common rail diesel? Someone correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't that engine originally developed by Alfa Romeo before the takeover by Fiat?

If it’s a 1.3 variant of that engine it’s a fucking turd. Absolute shit show beyond all compare. I owned one.

My bad, I meant Alfa Romeo, not FIAT. Still, given they have a similar (well deserved) reputation for unreliability, I stand by my use of the word "despite"...   

You’re excused 

This time 

[mnementh]

- What the root problem is, is not a chemical recipe that would REQUIRE silver content for the ceramic strips to be happy. Rather, what damages the ceramic strips is too much heat /temperature for too long. Tek using silver solder (lower melting point than regular 60/40) AND recommending a low power iron on top of that, is them trying make everything they can to reduce the temperature applied to the strip. That is all there is to it I think.

No, the issue is that the silver plating on the ceramic strips will dissolve into the solder if there isn't already silver in the mix. It still will with silver in the solder, but much more slowly, A small quantity (2-3%) of silver has little, if any, effect on the eutectic point of solder.

Hmmm... is it worth risking the extra ~60°C for the Sn/Ag/Cu alloy to keep the Sg content up? The melting point is still well below the boiling point of 60/40, so not likely going to burn the existing solder. Of course, then we'd be diluting the existing Pb content so...

Cu in the alloy could be a problem... but really more than the trace amounts from shearing component leads, etc...?

mnem
hmmmmm...   

[mansaxel]

(SCNR, it's probably only funny for the Germans here) 

Nah. I actually got that one 

Me too, but I've been known to do all interaction with the locals in their own language when in Germany.

Once I even made a lame engineer joke only valid for people speaking Swedish and German. My German-born colleague cringed in precisely the right way as I delivered it. (It'll take like half a page to explain it to people not fluent in those languages, and I'll ruin it en route, so you'll have to take my word for it. It also was very contextual.)

[Martin.M]

The NiCd's out of the 212. Don't think zapping them is gonna help. They are FUBAR. Done for. Tits up dead.  Luckily the leakage is contained. No damage.

I'm gonna go with the NiMH option. Amazon has plenty of them to chose from.

you can be lucky, sure.
It makes absolutely no fun to repair the board when the leakage acid have destroyed parts and connections there.
I have some experience with them.
About NiMH instead of NiCd: NiMH are not good to hold the charge for a longer time. The good old NiCd will do the job here better.
Also, the NiMH don`t like overcharging, to be connected the whole day to the AC. 212 will not display "full loaded".

make it running. And collect the others also... to be complete is to own
211 single channel .5mc
212 2 channel .5mc
213 single channel 1mc + onscreen DMM
214 2 channel .5mc storage
and the fast 221  single channel 5mc

[25 CPS]

First order of business, is there a recommended silver solder for working on the ceramic strip mounted parts that’s in current manufacture or do I need to be on the lookout for old Tektronix stock?

please look at first if there is a roll with silver solder inside mounted in the scope.
It was common to all of them to have a solder mounted inside. 

310A is very cute, the book folding chassis.
There are some capacitors inside what need a test.

I remember saying that these old Teks never come up near me and ever since I said that, a bunch have turned up. I guess I should have spoken up sooner…. Anyways, besides the 310, I have:

564B
2x535A, but one is a parts unit that was raided for its tubes so it’s unionwon if it has its roll of solder still.
2x547

Hopefully one or more of these scopes still has its spare solder roll in place.  One of my friends is coming from out of town to visit for a few days and he’s into electronics as well so maybe we’ll dig into the vintage Tek gear while he’s here if the weather’s crappy.

[McBryce]

Can you post a picture of the pens they used. If they are the ones that I think, there are actually sources available from a completely different rabbit hole hobby.

McBryce.

Close-up pics below. Took one of the pens out and measured it more accurately, using calipers this time.  I would say they are 23,25mm long by 4,9mm in diameter.

A source in Germany for them.
http://www.lass-shop.de/epages/63686166.sf/de_DE/?ObjectPath=/Shops/63686166/Products/%22US%20017.01%22

From this thread on the UKVRR forum. https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/showthread.php?t=142034

David

Wow, thanks ! 

This forum thread has everything I need indeed ! 

This German shop has some for sale that do the job apparently ! A web site selling small accessories for medical equipment ?! Whatever, as long as their pens work on my GOULD I a happy !!!     Medical stuff, was that the hobby you had in mind Bryce  ?

Forum also helps with the paper roll, saying any stationary shop will do, just need to shop for the correct width ! 

Even more interesting... it says that some of these 16XX series scopes DID come with a THERMAL Printer instead of the plotter !  Even said that when GOULD swapped the plotter for a thermal printer, the H/W only required a F/W update !

Even better... shall I come across one of these thermal printers, they say the thermal paper for it is already sorted out : it's the same as that used on the French " Minitel " terminal way back when !!  Better... a guy on that forum said he grabbed a shit load of these paper roll and is happy to offer some ! 


wow so I am all sorted then ?! Just need to fork out 22 Euros plus shipping to buy a set of pens from this German shop, and when I run out of paper I can just search for it at regular stationary shops, easy ! 


Thank you chaps, what would I do without you !!! 

Or maybe I should rather HATE you instead ?! I am torn ! I mean, if I can get fresh consumables for this plotter, it will work like new and then there will be NO WAY in hell I would want to sell it, I would just be playing with the thing all day long !   

No actually, vintage computers. There were several printers / plotters such as the Atari 1020 that used the same pens. They are often on offer on retro computer sites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_1020
The original Atari pens were made of metal and the top can be popped off and re-filled.

McBryce.

P.s. Where's the close-up picture??

[Cubdriver]

I've found silver bearing solder to be readily available new.  It's not cheap, but you can get it.

https://smile.amazon.com/Kester-Solder24-7150-0018-Solder-Wire-315%C3%83%C3%82%C2%B0C/dp/B00DDF2DE0/ref=sr_1_1?crid=333RHXWAY8RN3&dchild=1&keywords=kester+62%2F36%2F2&qid=1632252031&sprefix=kester+62%2F%2Caps%2C150&sr=8-1

-Pat

[bd139]

Oooh mine. Only up the road and buyer collects.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/194381196324

Looks real clean. How high are you willing to go?

Edit.....mine was $40 USD and it worked other than needing a cleaning/calibration and of course I did a recap.

Probably about £45 I reckon. Always wanted one so worth the punt.

[mnementh]

- What the root problem is, is not a chemical recipe that would REQUIRE silver content for the ceramic strips to be happy. Rather, what damages the ceramic strips is too much heat /temperature for too long. Tek using silver solder (lower melting point than regular 60/40) AND recommending a low power iron on top of that, is them trying make everything they can to reduce the temperature applied to the strip. That is all there is to it I think.

No, the issue is that the silver plating on the ceramic strips will dissolve into the solder if there isn't already silver in the mix. It still will with silver in the solder, but much more slowly,

Interesting ! I wonder though why Tek didn't even hint at that even though they had a special paragraph in the manuel warning about the soldering of teh strips. Seems odd.

A small quantity (2-3%) of silver has little, if any, effect on the eutectic point of solder.

You have to be wrong... it's Tautech a few years back who told me I would just fall in love with the lower melting point of the silver solder. I remember vividly.
Tautech is never wrong. Tautech please show up.

IIRC, leaded-alloy silver-bearing solder often contained small mounts of other metals, or just plain less tin as it was replaced with silver. No magic; simple metallurgy. 

EDIT: The Kester lead/tin silver-bearing solder that Cubdriver just posted a link to is listed as melt temp of 179°C; vs regular 60/40 at 183°C. With non-eutectic alloys like these, the solidus point vs liquidus point is a range of as much as 8-12°; with liquidus being the point where proper wetting during soldering is available.

Eutectic alloys like 63/37 have a solidus/liquidus temp that is very nearly the same. This can be a bit of a pain if you're trying to solder large masses, as achieving proper wetting can be difficult where the mass of the work is sucking the heat away very fast and it develops lumps where the solder solidifies while still wetting/flowing.

mnem
 

[Vince]

[..] Medical stuff, was that the hobby you had in mind Bryce  ?

No actually, vintage computers. There were several printers / plotters such as the Atari 1020 that used the same pens. They are often on offer on retro computer sites. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_1020
The original Atari pens were made of metal and the top can be popped off and re-filled.

McBryce.

P.s. Where's the close-up picture??

Oh interesting ! Yes if you know of another source for these pens, please share !

Piccies ? Oops sorry forgot to attach them, a disease of mine !

I edited my message to add the pics, you can scroll back to see them.... well I will attach them here as well for convenience...

[duckduck]

Maybe there is a cure for TEA. I mean, looking too long at THAT thing might very well break any affection for test equipment. This thing is so fecking ugly that I did not dare to post a picture of it.
Steel yourself for something really, really horrible and take a look:

https://www.ebay.de/itm/294250484573

Hurrrlk!

Soviet ТЛ-4М (ТL-4М) voltmeter from the Bay of Pay. It shipped from Latvia and I just got it yesterday.

It's bright orange, and it includes the battery cover. There are brass inserts in the plastic for the battery cover to screw into. Looks like one of the precision wire-wound resistors is toast and the glass meter cover is cracked. I tried the DC voltage up to 300V and it's reasonably accurate. It has 1,000V AC and DC modes but I don't have anything that makes 1000V DC (yet!). It's all hand assembled. Some Deoxit faderlube helped the mode-selection wheel to turn much easier. The switch in the lower left marked - ~ is the DC/AC mode selector switch. That's different. I grew up during the cold war, which makes this meter all the more interesting. Does anyone have any idea what year this was mode? I'll have to cut and paste some Cyrillic characters into a translating site to read what is written on the back.

EDIT:

Thanks, Neomys Sapiens. You meant to gross us out but instead triggered a spell of "What an odd little meter. I simply must have it."

EDIT:

"8512" on the diode. Is that a date code? Also, 84 and 85 markings on some of the resistors. Perhaps that's a year?

EDIT:

I just noticed the wire lacing. How many meters have that as a construction feature? Not too damn many, I'd wager.

[mansaxel]

The HF-225 is a late 80's design that was produced until 1997. It was mostly Plessy SL series IC's designed for military radios. It wasn't cheap at around £500 (US$850) but had good performance, holding it's own against receivers costing twice as much. They are still sought after. It's small and neat enough to sit on a bedside table or similar.

I have its little brother, the HF-150. I like it. At my place it suffers from a bad antenna and significant interference from various noisemakers, but on good nights I can get audible Radio 4 from Droitwich with it.

[Neper]

Eutectic alloys like 63/37 have a solidus/liquidus temp that is very nearly the same.

You know the most intriguing words. 

Since it appears we have some experts around here, is there a limit to the shelf life of 60/40 and ROHS solder? I've bought a life supply of both, some years ago. Just wondering...

[Cerebus]

- What the root problem is, is not a chemical recipe that would REQUIRE silver content for the ceramic strips to be happy. Rather, what damages the ceramic strips is too much heat /temperature for too long. Tek using silver solder (lower melting point than regular 60/40) AND recommending a low power iron on top of that, is them trying make everything they can to reduce the temperature applied to the strip. That is all there is to it I think.

No, the issue is that the silver plating on the ceramic strips will dissolve into the solder if there isn't already silver in the mix. It still will with silver in the solder, but much more slowly,

Interesting ! I wonder though why Tek didn't even hint at that even though they had a special paragraph in the manuel warning about the soldering of teh strips. Seems odd.

A small quantity (2-3%) of silver has little, if any, effect on the eutectic point of solder.

You have to be wrong... it's Tautech a few years back who told me I would just fall in love with the lower melting point of the silver solder. I remember vividly.
Tautech is never wrong. Tautech please show up.

62/36/2 - eutectic point 179ºC (452 K), 63/37 - eutectic point 183ºC (456 K). So a 0.87% depression in melting point.