Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Neomys Sapiens]

Some more lab tidying at 1AM and I will be done for today...


This morning along with the rolling chair, I also happened to receive the plastic " comb " thing used for routing wires in electrical cabinets... whatever it's called.  " Goulotte de câblage " here...

Anyway, it's 2 meter long. Cut a 50cm piece and screwed it in place. Populated it with my new coax cables and all my 4mm leads. With some sort of order so I can find what I want quicker, and put it back in its proper place more easily as well.  First the shorter coax cables, 50cm, then 100cm then 150cm ones. The 4mm leads sorted by colour and length. Long red then long black then short red then short black... looks like I have only one of the latter ?!    I guess I will find a few more over the coming weeks, as I keep digging deeper and deeper into my storage  boxes. Can't believe I have only one... that's highly suspicious ! 

That takes about half the comb's length. So with the other half I have space to put some more test leads. DMM leads, and I have a couple with a BNC on one end and god knows what at the other end, can't remember. Crocodile clips maybe.

The bench top runs all around the comb, so it's a back bending chore to stick the leads in place, not to mention the big parallax problems when trying to line up the top and bottom part of the comb... That's why I put the most used ones, ie coax and long 4mm leads, closed to me.
Think I might cut the lower half of the comb off. Not needed and just makes my life more difficult.

Of course that's not sustainable, it's only a first step... later I think I might mount the comb onto a long drawer runner so I can just grab the tip of the comb, drag it out over the bench top so that it's easily accessible, grab what I need on there, then push it back into place, out of the way. Much needed and shouldn't be too hard to DIY, so I think that will get done pretty soon.

That's it for today....

Whoa, now you woke my sense of pity (not known to stir in it's catatonic slumber normally).
Do you really have no other test leads than red and black?
No blue, green, yellow, white, brown and violet ones? And no 2mm at all?
Ok, send my a PM with your adress. I can at least send you a handful of SMA cables and I will look what else turns up from the reserves.

[AVGresponding]

By that argument, a crimped terminal damages the conductor; as it extrudes both conductor and terminal slightly if done correctly.

My comparison against an alligator clip have nothing to do with the contact area of the jaws; I'm talking about how the two sides of the clamp are "electrically connected".

Covalent area of the WAGO is still a small fraction of that produced by twisting the wires together.


mnem
 

Yes, crimp terminals do damage the conductor. If done correctly, it's not enough to cause critical failure. If over-crimped, it is. This affects solid conductors more than stranded. If you think about the mechanical forces involved, you'll see why.

Ok smartass, answer me this. In a 1mm² CSA conductor, what do you think the area of connection is from one part of the wire to another? You think making a wire nut with maybe 5mm² of contact area is in any way relevant? As long as the Wago meets or exceeds that 1mm² of contact area for a 1mm² CSA wire, it's as good as the wire itself, there is NO ADVANTAGE to increasing that contact area further.

[mnementh]

covalent | kəʊˈveɪl(ə)nt |

adjective Chemistry

relating to or denoting chemical bonds formed by the sharing of electrons between atoms. Often contrasted with ionic.

No other meanings listed.

D'oh! 

Must've gotten that brain-cell cross-connected with the one that stored confluent... or convergent... or maybe compost...? Who knows. 

mnem
memoria fugit...

[mnementh]

By that argument, a crimped terminal damages the conductor; as it extrudes both conductor and terminal slightly if done correctly.

My comparison against an alligator clip have nothing to do with the contact area of the jaws; I'm talking about how the two sides of the clamp are "electrically connected".

Covalent area of the WAGO is still a small fraction of that produced by twisting the wires together.


mnem
 

Yes, crimp terminals do damage the conductor. If done correctly, it's not enough to cause critical failure. If over-crimped, it is. This affects solid conductors more than stranded. If you think about the mechanical forces involved, you'll see why.

Ok smartass, answer me this. In a 1mm² CSA conductor, what do you think the area of connection is from one part of the wire to another? You think making a wire nut with maybe 5mm² of contact area is in any way relevant? As long as the Wago meets or exceeds that 1mm² of contact area for a 1mm² CSA wire, it's as good as the wire itself, there is NO ADVANTAGE to increasing that contact area further.

Of course it makes a difference. The copper shares a covalent bond with itself across that entire area. Not so when the wire is just pressed against the surface of a connector or another wire, even if you could cut them perfectly flush with each other. That gulf is massive in atomic scale.

This: O is the shape of the contact area you have with a wire in a WAGO connector. When you twist the wires, you deform the copper such that the confluent area is more like two adjoining hexagons. Bonus: it tends to exclude O² for more of that area.

Okay, smartass... with your WAGO connectors, can you twist the wire inside the connector? Pretty sure you can. That, IMO, is not tight enough.

Look... we're not going to agree on this. You seem to believe I'm just ignorant; I am not, and I have given these things a lot of thought.

Cheers,

mnem
*toddles off to collect the boi*

[Robert763]

So I bid on a non-TE ebay item on Sunday and go it for 99p. Well pleased. It arrived today and there was a TE "gift" in the box. A NOS sealed in the military packaging thermometer. The seller lists these at £15.
Anyone know what the mystery item (it's a set of bit that go together) is? I was 99% sure I knew and was right.

[BU508A]

Stresstest of a Wago 222 clamp. Sorry, video is in german:

[AVGresponding]

By that argument, a crimped terminal damages the conductor; as it extrudes both conductor and terminal slightly if done correctly.

My comparison against an alligator clip have nothing to do with the contact area of the jaws; I'm talking about how the two sides of the clamp are "electrically connected".

Covalent area of the WAGO is still a small fraction of that produced by twisting the wires together.


mnem
 

Yes, crimp terminals do damage the conductor. If done correctly, it's not enough to cause critical failure. If over-crimped, it is. This affects solid conductors more than stranded. If you think about the mechanical forces involved, you'll see why.

Ok smartass, answer me this. In a 1mm² CSA conductor, what do you think the area of connection is from one part of the wire to another? You think making a wire nut with maybe 5mm² of contact area is in any way relevant? As long as the Wago meets or exceeds that 1mm² of contact area for a 1mm² CSA wire, it's as good as the wire itself, there is NO ADVANTAGE to increasing that contact area further.

Of course it makes a difference. The copper shares a covalent bond with itself across that entire area. Not so when the wire is just pressed against the surface of a connector or another wire, even if you could cut them perfectly flush with each other. That gulf is massive in atomic scale.

This: O is the shape of the contact area you have with a wire in a WAGO connector. When you twist the wires, you deform the copper such that the confluent area is more like two adjoining hexagons. Bonus: it tends to exclude O² for more of that area.

Okay, smartass... with your WAGO connectors, can you twist the wire inside the connector? Pretty sure you can. That, IMO, is not tight enough.

Look... we're not going to agree on this. You seem to believe I'm just ignorant; I am not, and I have given these things a lot of thought.

Cheers,

mnem
*toddles off to collect the boi*

Not enough thought, because that is not the shape of the contact area. Any plastic deformation of the conductor is undesirable, for reasons already mentioned. The Wago has enough force to allow elastic deformation to conform to the contact area if necessary. This means you can make and break the connection as many times as you like for maintenance or alteration works without having to cut the cable back and lose length like you would with any other type of connection.

The contact shape is a squared-off U for the seat, with the clamp making a fourth side, though from my experiments (idle playing, or fiddling if you like) you're not going to hit more than 3 sides including the clamp.

The UL certification for these isn't going to be like the ones you get on Chinese Export items; they're a big German company, and it's not something you could cheat like VW with the emissions thing.

[GreyWoolfe]

Getting old ain't for wussies.

There is no such thing as growing old gracefully.  I would like to meet the person that coined the phrase and rip out his arms and beat him about the head and shoulders with the bloody ends.  I do so kicking and screaming with joints popping and much gnashing of tooth before the dentures go in.

[Cerebus]

Stresstest of a Wago 222 clamp. Sorry, video is in german:

Sorry I can't understand German smoke and flames, too much Strum und Drang.  Still, better than country music, too much strum and twang.

[GreyWoolfe]

Gee I was 2 years and a month old !

Looked like even back then you were a fan of wooden dark brown furniture 

Looks like you also quickly upped your game... scope on first / most recent picture shows a much fancier scope than the one on the oldest/second pic !

The scope in the older pix is a Heathkit IO-4540 (I think) that I built around 1977 or so. I later sold it and bought the B&K 2120 which I still have and works a treat.

And yes, wood stain is Minwax #230 Early American on Southern Yellow Pine with semi-gloss poly which I still use today.

Edit, and I told you I was older than dirt. 

The B&K 2120 was the scope I used at ITT Technical Institute in the late 90's.  They are too expensive to indulge in nostalgia but I did pick up a GW-Instek scope, DMM and power supply in the great ITT equipment purge.  I am as old as dirt also, in 1979 I was a year out of college working my first job and owning my first new car, a 1979 Chevy Nova.

[ch_scr]

Stresstest of a Wago 222 clamp. Sorry, video is in german:

Sorry I can't understand German smoke and flames, too much Strum und Drang.  Still, better than country music, too much strum and twang.

I think the "wire glowing, wago connection still the coldest part" speaks clearly enough, no matter the language 

[mnementh]

Getting old ain't for wussies.

There is no such thing as growing old gracefully.  I would like to meet the person that coined the phrase and rip out his arms and beat him about the head and shoulders with the bloody ends.  I do so kicking and screaming with joints popping and much gnashing of tooth before the dentures go in.

            BWAHAHAHAHA!

mnem
*kicks Death in the knee and hobbles away*

[mnementh]

mnem
 

[mnementh]

Stresstest of a Wago 222 clamp. Sorry, video is in german:

Sorry I can't understand German smoke and flames, too much Strum und Drang.  Still, better than country music, too much strum and twang.

*lobs Londonward several soggy ol' boots and a cat stuck in a lute*

mnem
needs more cowbell.

[mnementh]

...Anyone know what the mystery item (it's a set of bit that go together) is? I was 99% sure I knew and was right.

Damn you Robert... I know we've seen that in here before; it uses a Sony Watchman with the 90° CRT as a display.

Does it work...?

mnem
digs around the office for his brain cudgel*

[Saskia]

I don't know what that hubbub about wago is all about. I used them for bridge igniter cabling from the electronics bay to the 12 gauge case withe the black powder or nitrocellulose reservoir to eject a parachute after apogee.
They were subjected to up to 15g and about 200m/s and held up fine. they were also subjected to an atmosphere of 10grams of black powder blowing up (and a similar amount of nitrocellulose). And they held up fine.

[Vince]

I seem to have won the relay battle by pounding the dissident voices into oblivion with a 25-page presentation.
So hermetic it will be...
And my NGRU was put to work for verification that they are really polarity insensitive.

The Blue one is polarised. That type has a small permanent magnet to make them more sensitive. It also means the drop out voltage is very low. I've tested 24V examples that held in down to 3V. You have to be careful of sneak paths when the drop out is that low.

This I knew.
1.) it has the proper symbol for that
2.) I know those series.
Regarding the 'Relay battle', I was referring to the 'Centigrid' type (visible in the upper right), respectively a RF optimised variant of them.

Centigrid are nice, very expensive though. Funnily enough yesterday I found a PCB from a 2" aircraft indicator I designed in about 1995. It has a centigrid on it.
Virtual cookie to anyone who can identify the aircraft type 

Well there are so many types of Aircraft it's a difficult one Sir Robert ! 

A hot air balloon  ??
A gyrocopter ?
A helicopter  ?
A space rocket ?
The space shuttle ?
A missile ?
A satellite ?
A space probe going to Mars ?
.. an airplane ?

Whatever that was, I hope this board didn't go into production, for it reads " issue A ", and the first issue of any board rarely is 100% perfect ! 

I will vote for an Airplane because it's the most common type of aircraft, and go for the A320 because so many have been made that statistically that gives me the highest chances of being right ! 

[Vince]

Some more lab tidying at 1AM and I will be done for today...


This morning along with the rolling chair, I also happened to receive the plastic " comb " thing used for routing wires in electrical cabinets... whatever it's called.  " Goulotte de câblage " here...

Anyway, it's 2 meter long. Cut a 50cm piece and screwed it in place. Populated it with my new coax cables and all my 4mm leads. With some sort of order so I can find what I want quicker, and put it back in its proper place more easily as well.  First the shorter coax cables, 50cm, then 100cm then 150cm ones. The 4mm leads sorted by colour and length. Long red then long black then short red then short black... looks like I have only one of the latter ?!    I guess I will find a few more over the coming weeks, as I keep digging deeper and deeper into my storage  boxes. Can't believe I have only one... that's highly suspicious ! 

That takes about half the comb's length. So with the other half I have space to put some more test leads. DMM leads, and I have a couple with a BNC on one end and god knows what at the other end, can't remember. Crocodile clips maybe.

The bench top runs all around the comb, so it's a back bending chore to stick the leads in place, not to mention the big parallax problems when trying to line up the top and bottom part of the comb... That's why I put the most used ones, ie coax and long 4mm leads, closed to me.
Think I might cut the lower half of the comb off. Not needed and just makes my life more difficult.

Of course that's not sustainable, it's only a first step... later I think I might mount the comb onto a long drawer runner so I can just grab the tip of the comb, drag it out over the bench top so that it's easily accessible, grab what I need on there, then push it back into place, out of the way. Much needed and shouldn't be too hard to DIY, so I think that will get done pretty soon.

That's it for today....

Whoa, now you woke my sense of pity (not known to stir in it's catatonic slumber normally).
Do you really have no other test leads than red and black?
No blue, green, yellow, white, brown and violet ones? And no 2mm at all?
Ok, send my a PM with your adress. I can at least send you a handful of SMA cables and I will look what else turns up from the reserves.

That bad ?! 

I was so proud of showing off my beautiful long red and black leads.... generously donated recently by a fellow TEA member ! Were it not for him, the situation would be a lot worse...

Fancy coloured 4mm leads ?! Wow now you are talking luxury !  No none of that here for sure.... except for 2mm leads, I DO have some of those !
Never get to use them, but I have some. Nice quality silicon wires with gold plated plugs. Mostly tiny / short ones though, 20cm and up.

I have them because they are part of a brief case that my dad gave me 30 years ago when he left work and retired. He used these brief cases to teach his students / trainees digital logic. In the pouch inside the case, there are lots of TTL chips and all those cables. You could plug the chips in the sockets and wire everything up using those tiny cables.
I even have some plugs left so I can make new cables if I need to... assuming I can get my hands on 2mm silicon cable... I thought I had some left somewhere but can't find it right now. Maybe I will find it once I am done unpacking all my stuff / boxes.

While digging out these 2mm cables, I came across more 4mm cables as you can see ! Half a dozen of them.. but tiny ones, 30cm at first glance, so not very useful in practice.

[factory]

Anyone in the US interested in a functioning HP 5340A? According to the 1977 catalog the H10 option on the back is "frequency extension to 23GHz", if it had international shipping I might have bought it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294742357414




David

[Cubdriver]

Anyone in the US interested in a functioning HP 5340A? According to the 1977 catalog the H10 option on the back is "frequency extension to 23GHz", if it had international shipping I might have bought it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294742357414




David

Dammit!!!  I'd been staying away from eBuy!   

-Pat

[BU508A]

Anyone in the US interested in a functioning HP 5340A? According to the 1977 catalog the H10 option on the back is "frequency extension to 23GHz", if it had international shipping I might have bought it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294742357414




David

Dammit!!!  I'd been staying away from eBuy!   

-Pat

Congrats!

[Cerebus]

This arrived today:



Containing these:



Which measured out like this:



So, nominally 100 off 10k 1% RN55D type resistors (known to Vishay as CMF-55). Vishay as usual do better than the 1% tolerance "on the box" except when it comes to counting them, there were 102 - that's a 2% error.

Just thought it would be interesting to have the statistics on a batch as they came from the factory. Lowest value 10,001Ω, highest 10,044.2Ω, average 10,020.72Ω, 1 sigma 8.15Ω. So I make that +0.44% absolute worst case, and mean deviation a little under +0.20% from nominal (mode arguably at +0.175% or +0.15%, call it +0.16% for cash). Not shabby.

You can work out the median yourself if you think that's useful; you would of course then find yourself in the company of economists, politicians and other people who abuse statistics for a living.

[Neomys Sapiens]

That bad ?! 

I was so proud of showing off my beautiful long red and black leads.... generously donated recently by a fellow TEA member ! Were it not for him, the situation would be a lot worse...

Fancy coloured 4mm leads ?! Wow now you are talking luxury !  No none of that here for sure.... except for 2mm leads, I DO have some of those !
Never get to use them, but I have some. Nice quality silicon wires with gold plated plugs. Mostly tiny / short ones though, 20cm and up.
.
.
.
While digging out these 2mm cables, I came across more 4mm cables as you can see ! Half a dozen of them.. but tiny ones, 30cm at first glance, so not very useful in practice.

I would not say that they are not useful. They tend to be needed in at least the same numbers than the longer ones.
For example
- for crosswiring terminals at breakout boxes
- wiring an additional element, such as a limiter or ammeter, into a supply line
- shorting/bypassing or closing some loop
and many more.

[nixiefreqq]

Anyone in the US interested in a functioning HP 5340A? According to the 1977 catalog the H10 option on the back is "frequency extension to 23GHz", if it had international shipping I might have bought it.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/294742357414




David

Dammit!!!  I'd been staying away from eBuy!   

-Pat

cowabunga!  have its brother but still would have been tempted at that price. 

i do not approve of the guy sticking his rubber duck antenna into that connector.

upon arrival please post pictures of it measuring something microwavy.
 

[xrunner]

I don't understand what the drama is about. I looked at your pic and I struggle to see what it is that you couldn't reproduce in seconds with any mid '90s word processor on a 486 CPU with Windows 3.1 ?! 

The buttons are just rectangles, any word processor can draw basic shapes like this, which you can position pixel by pixel exactly where you want it to be.
The button caption is just a "text box" which is a graphical element and as such again, can be positioned accurately where ever you want.

It's only a few minutes job.. longest part is looking at all the fonts to find one that's good enough to your taste...

Right - so I've got it to 99% of what I want this label to look like, at least using a test on white paper. The best matching font for it was plain old Times New Roman.

What do you think Vince? I didn't even use a 90's word processor on a 486 w/Windoze 3.1, I used Windows 10 and a Ryzen 7 1700 8 core 3.2 GHz processor to re-create what was possible 30 years ago! And to think people ask why we constantly need more powerful computers!