Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14553048 times)

ch_scr, Qw3rtzuiop and 24 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1924
  • Country: fi
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112075 on: January 24, 2022, 06:10:26 pm »
It could be a hoax... be careful...

Yes could be, hence why I am taking it one step at a time... waiting first for a reply on my first message. That will then give me an idea of the "profile" of the seller...
Positive side is, the TTi load is still a lot of money, 400 Euros is still an awful lot of money and you can get a brand new DC load for less than that. So it's not like the seller priced it suspiciously dirt cheap.
Which means that when he sells the 34401A DMM at only 250 Euros (which again is STILL a lot of money in absolute terms), it may not be suspicious.

It would be suspicious if the ad had a "buy" button, because in this case the ad should have disappeared by now.

So first things first. Wait to see if I get a reply. If I do, most likely I will get told it's already been sold and he his waiting to receive the check from the buyer. If not, well I will see what he says and make my mind about his "profile".. if he is legit or not.

Stay tuned !  ;D

I did like you, think of offering him to buy both instruments to get a discount, though I was more greedy than you, I was thinking of offering 500 Euros not 600 !  ;D

You can also check what Ray has for alternatives.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_industriels/2104011369.htm
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Triplett-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline tggzzz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 19279
  • Country: gb
  • Numbers, not adjectives
    • Having fun doing more, with less
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112076 on: January 24, 2022, 06:49:57 pm »
When something seems too good to be true, it usually is...

As I'm in the process of disposing of vast amounts of stuff (some quite nice, but I've purloined the stuff I really like) via auction, I have to disagree :( The price is set by the underbidder.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline Vince

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4168
  • Country: fr
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112077 on: January 24, 2022, 07:02:23 pm »

The 34401A seems unfeasibly cheap, given it didn't get bought within the first 30 seconds of being listed.

When something seems too good to be true, it usually is...   :-[


No you didn't read me properly !  ;D

There is NO "buy" button on this ad, so unless the seller removes the ad by himself if he sold it... the ad will stay there forever ! There is no expiry date on ads on this site.
99% of the time when a cheap good stuff is online with no buy button, it's just that the seller a) didn't bother removing the ad or b) it's sold but he is still waiting to receive hjis check in the post, take it to his bank, then wait at least 3 days for it to clear. So usually even if the thing is sold instantly, the ad can easily stay on-line for 10 days.

This is most likely what's happening here, but I won't know until the guy replies to me and/or the ad gets deleted...



 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112078 on: January 24, 2022, 07:04:18 pm »
t seems as if your authorities have a similar agenda to ours when it comes to schools and children, must keep that distribution channel open at all costs 

Now, if you take a step back from the immediate problem; and consider what needs to happen in our societies in say 10-20 years time; how are we going to manage if there is an entire generation that's lost out 1-2-3 years in their education very clearly tipping the scales towards "less stellar performance" -- their standard of living, their financial and social well-being, their expectations on society all just slightly less well off. That's going to make them a very depressed generation, and that is going to cost, in money and quality of life.

This is where the word "holistic" really fits in, and it can be summed up like so:

People die from other things than this bloody virus too.

Making sure that the average human lives as long and prosperly as possible might, with enough statistics available, give good reason to make decisions that for the average onlooker without access to the data seem counter-intuitive; our own, naked-eye interpretation (no doubt enforced by the ad-revenue needs of Murdoch, et al.) of the forces at play, is very uninformed here. Our tendency to make trends of isolated events that fit our desires does not really help either.

Alternatively, They want to kill us to make ruling over an empty kingdom easier, with no-one to tax. 

Pick the most reasonable explanation.
This differs from right now in what way; given the radical right's systematic dismantling of public education, thereby ensuring that only those who can afford private schooling get anything approaching a proper education...?

Ummm... you're making this into a really evil Sophie's Choice here; I think there has to be some better answer than "herd them into the abbatoirs so they're not a drain on future society", which is the ultimate end of such reasoning. I dunno... Maybe tax a rich motherfucker for a change? :palm:

EDIT: I mean... we're talking about a nation that took on all comers in 2 World Wars, and pulled together (at home and with our allies) to win, and to make the new world after a better place. Why is it too much to hope that we should again rise to the occasion in the face of such a worldwide disaster...?

mnem
*sick of this failed experiment in antisocial Darwinism*
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 08:10:51 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 
The following users thanked this post: Specmaster

Offline Vince

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4168
  • Country: fr
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112079 on: January 24, 2022, 07:04:33 pm »


You can also check what Ray has for alternatives.

https://www.leboncoin.fr/equipements_industriels/2104011369.htm


Yeah I saw that ad but I can recognize anything of interest in his crappy pictures... and if I did, guy would want extortionate amounts of money for it no doubt  ::)

 

Offline m k

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1924
  • Country: fi
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112080 on: January 24, 2022, 07:20:51 pm »
And for Irvine, California, USA we are hopelessly too far.

Keithley 2015
Check pics 28/33 and 29/33.

https://www.allsurplus.com/asset/16/13284
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Triplett-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 
The following users thanked this post: Vince, mnementh, duckduck

Offline Atomillo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: es
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112081 on: January 24, 2022, 07:21:54 pm »
Hi:

I'm here once again to ask probably stupid questions!

The Keithley 181 nanovoltmeter arrived today. After opening it to change the mains voltage to 230V as well as to inspect everything is ok, I power it up. I measure some normal voltages and everything is fine. Here comes the weird thing. I try to zero the meter by connecting the input cable and shorting it. When I made this measurement, the unit had been powered on for 40 minutes with the cable connected in order to let everything stabilize. And yet, look at that result! VERY far from zero. Is that normal?

I also tried a small piece of copper shorting the inputs. Letting it stabilize for 10 minutes gave me a similar result.

I'm unfamiliar with low level voltage measurements. I've watched Marco Reps video and he's able to get very close to zero. I've taken the same precautions and yet it doesn't seem to matter.

I would greatly appreaciate any advice

 
The following users thanked this post: ch_scr

Online AVGresponding

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4643
  • Country: england
  • Exploring Rabbit Holes Since The 1970s
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112082 on: January 24, 2022, 07:28:39 pm »
When something seems too good to be true, it usually is...

As I'm in the process of disposing of vast amounts of stuff (some quite nice, but I've purloined the stuff I really like) via auction, I have to disagree :( The price is set by the underbidder.

So you're saying if something seems too good to be true, it's usually true..?   ???
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 

Online AVGresponding

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4643
  • Country: england
  • Exploring Rabbit Holes Since The 1970s
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112083 on: January 24, 2022, 07:33:09 pm »

The 34401A seems unfeasibly cheap, given it didn't get bought within the first 30 seconds of being listed.

When something seems too good to be true, it usually is...   :-[


No you didn't read me properly !  ;D

There is NO "buy" button on this ad, so unless the seller removes the ad by himself if he sold it... the ad will stay there forever ! There is no expiry date on ads on this site.
99% of the time when a cheap good stuff is online with no buy button, it's just that the seller a) didn't bother removing the ad or b) it's sold but he is still waiting to receive hjis check in the post, take it to his bank, then wait at least 3 days for it to clear. So usually even if the thing is sold instantly, the ad can easily stay on-line for 10 days.

This is most likely what's happening here, but I won't know until the guy replies to me and/or the ad gets deleted...

Yeah, I got it, but if it were me selling it I'd take the ad down the instant the sale was final, otherwise I'd be spammed to death!

FWIW I just now missed an LD300, the winner had to pay £310.
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 

Offline Cerebus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10576
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112084 on: January 24, 2022, 07:40:09 pm »
Hi:

I'm here once again to ask probably stupid questions!

The Keithley 181 nanovoltmeter arrived today. After opening it to change the mains voltage to 230V as well as to inspect everything is ok, I power it up. I measure some normal voltages and everything is fine. Here comes the weird thing. I try to zero the meter by connecting the input cable and shorting it. When I made this measurement, the unit had been powered on for 40 minutes with the cable connected in order to let everything stabilize. And yet, look at that result! VERY far from zero. Is that normal?

I also tried a small piece of copper shorting the inputs. Letting it stabilize for 10 minutes gave me a similar result.

I'm unfamiliar with low level voltage measurements. I've watched Marco Reps video and he's able to get very close to zero. I've taken the same precautions and yet it doesn't seem to matter.

I would greatly appreaciate any advice



If I'm reading that right, that's reading ~15uV. That's definitely in the range where thermal EMF could be responsible for all of that reading without very careful measurement technique. I suggest a good read of Keithley's Low Level Measurements Handbook (if you haven't already) and a double check of your measurement setup in light of that before you start considering looking for instrument faults.
Anybody got a syringe I can use to squeeze the magic smoke back into this?
 

Offline xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7496
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112085 on: January 24, 2022, 07:41:10 pm »
Hi:

I'm here once again to ask probably stupid questions!

The Keithley 181 nanovoltmeter arrived today. After opening it to change the mains voltage to 230V as well as to inspect everything is ok, I power it up. I measure some normal voltages and everything is fine. Here comes the weird thing. I try to zero the meter by connecting the input cable and shorting it. When I made this measurement, the unit had been powered on for 40 minutes with the cable connected in order to let everything stabilize. And yet, look at that result! VERY far from zero. Is that normal?

I also tried a small piece of copper shorting the inputs. Letting it stabilize for 10 minutes gave me a similar result.

I'm unfamiliar with low level voltage measurements. I've watched Marco Reps video and he's able to get very close to zero. I've taken the same precautions and yet it doesn't seem to matter.

I would greatly appreaciate any advice

Look on page 2-5 of the manual (see pic below). I think you need to use the Zero function as it states.
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline Atomillo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: es
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112086 on: January 24, 2022, 07:46:48 pm »
Hi:

I printed Keithley book. It's highly recommended in a lot of threads and also it is free. I fully understood why it was so recommended, there's a lot of things that can fool such a measurement, specially in a hand lab environment and with an inexperienced operator like myself.

I also suspected thermal EMFs. That's why I let it turned on for some time. The connectors are the Keithley original, copper plated, so there also should not be any metal difference.

If instead of shorting the input through the cable, I do it using a small piece of copper wire, due to the small mass, it should easily reach thermal equilibrium. Thus if the voltage reading is due to thermal EMF it should be reduced, right?

Thanks for your kind help
 

Offline Atomillo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: es
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112087 on: January 24, 2022, 07:48:48 pm »
Yes, at first I thought the same, but then I rewatched Marcos video, and he seems to almost reach zero without using the zero function:

https://youtu.be/BPnQeYuuAv4

At minute 16:20.
 

Offline xrunner

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7496
  • Country: us
  • hp>Agilent>Keysight>???
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112088 on: January 24, 2022, 07:58:19 pm »
Yes, at first I thought the same, but then I rewatched Marcos video, and he seems to almost reach zero without using the zero function:

https://youtu.be/BPnQeYuuAv4

At minute 16:20.

 :-//

Later on in the video toward the end he's using another shorting method and he gets a higher reading. I don't understand why you are not using the zero function that the manufacturer has designed into the instrument for it's intended purpose.  ???
I told my friends I could teach them to be funny, but they all just laughed at me.
 

Offline Vince

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4168
  • Country: fr
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112089 on: January 24, 2022, 08:03:49 pm »

The 34401A seems unfeasibly cheap, given it didn't get bought within the first 30 seconds of being listed.

When something seems too good to be true, it usually is...   :-[


No you didn't read me properly !  ;D

There is NO "buy" button on this ad, so unless the seller removes the ad by himself if he sold it... the ad will stay there forever ! There is no expiry date on ads on this site.
99% of the time when a cheap good stuff is online with no buy button, it's just that the seller a) didn't bother removing the ad or b) it's sold but he is still waiting to receive hjis check in the post, take it to his bank, then wait at least 3 days for it to clear. So usually even if the thing is sold instantly, the ad can easily stay on-line for 10 days.

This is most likely what's happening here, but I won't know until the guy replies to me and/or the ad gets deleted...

Yeah, I got it, but if it were me selling it I'd take the ad down the instant the sale was final, otherwise I'd be spammed to death!

Ah. Well, it's not how people here work... you would be surprised all the weird and nonsensical seller do on this site. You just can not apply logic or reason or science to the way they do things and react to your inputs... they are not like us nerds who use maths and facts to compute what we should do. No. Not at all.
I have enough experience on this site now (and of French people) to know that absolutely anything can happen... good or bad.

Sometimes, people will post their ad, then leav for a week or two on hols, and check their account only when they get back home 2 weeks later, and when they face all the e-mails, they read them top to bottom of course.. which means that the LAST guy who replied to his add, will get replied to first, and get the item... and then when he gets to his last e-mail hence see what the FIRST / quickest buyer said... he will just reply "oh sorry it's already sold I didn't see that you e-mailed me first !! "

It happened to me once or twice. Once, guy said "too bad", other time guy was decent and corrected his mistake.

From what I see here for theses two pieces of TE, I might be in this particular scenario : been 24 hourss now and the seller still has not logged to his account to read my message !
So clearly not in a hurry...

What also happens is, they wait for 3 days to get lots of e-mails, and they take the highest "bidder"... even though it's not an auction, it's supposed to be a fixed price...

Really, there are a multitude of scenarios I have witnessed, some really weird.

So for now, I can't say much... still need to wait for the seller to read my message to begin with...


Quote from: AVGresponding
FWIW I just now missed an LD300, the winner had to pay £310.[/color][/size][/b]

That would be close to the 400 Euros seller wants for his LD400...
Might be on the lookout for a less powerful but cheaper TTi load.. don't need 400 Watts and don't need 80 amps.
How I am on a budget so... if I can find a less powerful model so I can get it cheaper AND trade current for a high voltage excursion... I would both save money and have a more useful / versatile unit.

 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112090 on: January 24, 2022, 08:13:42 pm »
And for Irvine, California, USA we are hopelessly too far.   Keithley 2015   Check pics 28/33 and 29/33.

https://www.allsurplus.com/asset/16/13284
:'(

mnem
*toddles off to do something... else*
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 08:17:59 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Online ch_scr

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 809
  • Country: de
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112091 on: January 24, 2022, 08:15:07 pm »
I put the OCXO with the unusual phase noise behaviour on a different board. Only parts common are the OCXO itself and the 7805. The surrounding circuit is the same on both units (misbehaving and behaving). That only leaves either a mistake on my part interpreting the readings or a fault in the one OCXO  :-//

On the DMTD, I would like a logic-compliant sharp rise time output. That means a comperator. I bodged on a LM293 without hysteresis. I know this can give problems like multiple edges with slow / noisy signals. The downmixed 10Hz is slow but not (too)noisy. And it is differential with a DC offset. The problem here is, I can't find a circuit for comparator hysteresis for differential inputs; and I can't imagine one (I like) without a differential output on the comperator.
I did look (closely) at the transition of the comparator output I bodged on and it looks fine. I can see a wee bit of noise in the transition and I can make it misbehave by putting my finger on the input bodge wires, the noise coupling from that is enough to give multiple edges on the transition.
I think this would be "good enough" but is there anything simple I can do? I know I could put hysteresis in one of the differential paths but somehow this feels wrong?   :-\

Edit: The easiest fix that came to mind is to reduce impedance before the comperator, thus making it less likely for stray noise to find its way in...
« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 08:18:16 pm by ch_scr »
 
The following users thanked this post: mnementh

Offline Atomillo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: es
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112092 on: January 24, 2022, 08:18:16 pm »
Hi:

I think you are correct. I misunderstood the manual. My bad.

This result was taken around 15 minutes after zeroing the meter, this itselft being done 15 minutes after the short copper piece was connected (letting enough time to let all temperatures equalize).

This result is very sensitive. Getting close to the instrument alters it, and even more so blowing into the copper short.

So even if just using Cu-Cu unions, the sensitivity to thermal effects at this low of a level is extremely high. However, according to Keithley manual, Cu-Cu union has a Seebeck coefficient of 0.2uV/Cº. So the measured voltage without the zero enabled is still way too high, because it would imply a 75 Cº temperature difference!

Thus, I understand that this offset is due to other causes. Which causes could they be?
 

Offline mnementh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17541
  • Country: us
  • *Hiding in the Dwagon-Cave*
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112093 on: January 24, 2022, 08:51:14 pm »
Capacitive coupling between that loop antenna and the paint on the walls...?

It is my understanding that in this range such things are entirely possible...?

mnem
okay... maybe a slight exaggeration.     ;)

« Last Edit: January 24, 2022, 08:53:50 pm by mnementh »
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline Atomillo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 205
  • Country: es
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112094 on: January 24, 2022, 09:02:55 pm »
Well, might be!
I've given some though to this, and seen the various attempts in this forum to replicate the shorting plug originally selled by Keithley.
I'm thinking that might be using a plastic pill container and filling it with thermal insulator and putting it over the short might reduce thermal effects.
I've read quite a bit while waiting for this Nanovoltmeter but this sensitivity is quite amazing. Reading a thing and then seeing it happen and being measured are different things.
 

Online factory

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112095 on: January 24, 2022, 09:05:46 pm »
For those that think they have at least one of everything....

Spotted this Varian Rubidium Magnetometer on eBay  --> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/304269246229

Usual disclaimers:  I know nothing about the seller.  I have no idea if it is remotely possible to get this adjusted or even working at all.

Thinking of doing geophysics & joining Time Team?  :-DD First hit on the web search seems to be archaeology related, just need the sensors & other bits to go with it. The pdf references the Varian Associates, V-4938 Rubidium Magnetometer Data Sheet (Palo Alto, Calif.,1963)..
http://www.breiner.com/sheldon/papers/Rubidium%20Magnetometer%20in%20Archeological%20Exploration.pdf



David
 
The following users thanked this post: mnementh, ch_scr, Andrew_Debbie, mansaxel, cyclin_al

Offline VK5RC

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 2672
  • Country: au
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112096 on: January 24, 2022, 09:10:02 pm »
I looked into a bit of low volt-nuttery a while back - issues could be
1. I thought most terminals on meters were copper-telurium - 'pure' copper too soft
2. Very small impurities in the joint - finger oils etc. Even good quality IPA used for cleaning can leave residual trace organics.
3 Copper oxide to copper has a gradient
4 Gradients inside the meter, 15mins may not be long enough - draft shielding-thermal stability. For a 3458 24hrs is typical minimum.
5 Look at the EM noise environment of the lab, my led downlights can blow measurements by 10s of microvolts

Hope this helps - TiN's website very useful.
Rob
Whoah! Watch where that landed we might need it later.
 
The following users thanked this post: Vince, mnementh, cyclin_al, Atomillo

Online factory

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2842
  • Country: gb
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112097 on: January 24, 2022, 09:18:25 pm »
Oh, and did anyone else notice the TEA chips in Dave's combiscope vid..?   :-DD



No completely missed those, but probably have some Philips TEA ICs somewhere from scrapped TV boards.

Wonder how quickly he'll find the fault. The PSU does have a protection crowbar function of the secondary side, which can be triggered by overvoltage & temperature, these trigger a thyristor to short one of the secondary rails and the primary then goes into current limiting with the PSU squeal he had.
I've got an older PM3055 with an intermittent PSU fault, it's on the round-tuit pile waiting for a re-capicide. If ignored the primary circuit of the SMPS can fail as a result, the one at work eventually did.

David
 

Offline mansaxel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3554
  • Country: se
  • SA0XLR
    • My very static home page
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112098 on: January 24, 2022, 09:21:59 pm »
This differs from right now in what way; given the radical right's systematic dismantling of public education, thereby ensuring that only those who can afford private schooling get anything approaching a proper education...?

Ummm... you're making this into a really evil Sophie's Choice here; I think there has to be some better answer than "herd them into the abbatoirs so they're not a drain on future society", which is the ultimate end of such reasoning. I dunno... Maybe tax a rich motherfucker for a change? :palm:

EDIT: I mean... we're talking about a nation that took on all comers in 2 World Wars, and pulled together (at home and with our allies) to win, and to make the new world after a better place. Why is it too much to hope that we should again rise to the occasion in the face of such a worldwide disaster...?

mnem
*sick of this failed experiment in antisocial Darwinism*

I'm terribly sorry you live in that parody of a society. What I am talking about is the very careful reasoning of our public health administration (CDC, like, so not hospital operators but more overarching view on population health) on the proper balance between taking preventive measures for short-term and long-term threats. They are not elected (the Director-General is appointed by government and usually is a physician specialised in the field). They have a mission to perform and do that, and during this process they have been very open with the fact that they are modeling this from incomplete data, but also that they are taking a very long perspective on things, and that clashes very clearly with what politicians like to do, come up with catchy phrases people can remember. We are watching them think, and adapt.  Eerie, not the least to the media, who do not understand how to make headlines of this.

What has not been so much adapted over time, is their position that schools are to be kept running as long as possible, because the bad health effects from forcing children out of school have been thoroughly proven earlier. Further, given that the present unpleasantness affects children less, the tradeoff is somewhat easier to motivate.

And, we tax our rich. Not enough, but still. (For income from work, all people pay municipal tax, which is about 32%. If you earn above ~550000 SEK per year, you also pay 20% state tax on the amount above the limit which means that those incomes are taxed at about 52-53%. For capital gains et c, it is not as progressive; there the tax is a flat 30%)

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #112099 on: January 24, 2022, 09:43:31 pm »
This differs from right now in what way; given the radical right's systematic dismantling of public education, thereby ensuring that only those who can afford private schooling get anything approaching a proper education...?

Ummm... you're making this into a really evil Sophie's Choice here; I think there has to be some better answer than "herd them into the abbatoirs so they're not a drain on future society", which is the ultimate end of such reasoning. I dunno... Maybe tax a rich motherfucker for a change? :palm:

EDIT: I mean... we're talking about a nation that took on all comers in 2 World Wars, and pulled together (at home and with our allies) to win, and to make the new world after a better place. Why is it too much to hope that we should again rise to the occasion in the face of such a worldwide disaster...?

mnem
*sick of this failed experiment in antisocial Darwinism*

I'm terribly sorry you live in that parody of a society. What I am talking about is the very careful reasoning of our public health administration (CDC, like, so not hospital operators but more overarching view on population health) on the proper balance between taking preventive measures for short-term and long-term threats. They are not elected (the Director-General is appointed by government and usually is a physician specialised in the field). They have a mission to perform and do that, and during this process they have been very open with the fact that they are modeling this from incomplete data, but also that they are taking a very long perspective on things, and that clashes very clearly with what politicians like to do, come up with catchy phrases people can remember. We are watching them think, and adapt.  Eerie, not the least to the media, who do not understand how to make headlines of this.

What has not been so much adapted over time, is their position that schools are to be kept running as long as possible, because the bad health effects from forcing children out of school have been thoroughly proven earlier. Further, given that the present unpleasantness affects children less, the tradeoff is somewhat easier to motivate.

And, we tax our rich. Not enough, but still. (For income from work, all people pay municipal tax, which is about 32%. If you earn above ~550000 SEK per year, you also pay 20% state tax on the amount above the limit which means that those incomes are taxed at about 52-53%. For capital gains et c, it is not as progressive; there the tax is a flat 30%)

It's not fair to call the American society a "parody"...    the difference is that Scandinavian countries are far more homogeneous than the USA, making the latter more difficult to govern.  Scandinavia doesn't have large sections of society that are deeply religious and suspicious of science, for example.  I find it hard to imagine many Scandinavians putting up heated arguments against vaccines, for example...   And it isn't just a matter of education - it is a cultural / attitude-to-life difference.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf