Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Cerebus]

Hmm, good luck trying to steer cars from the VW stable when the electrics fail. My steering is impossible to turn the wheel with no electrics and the car is stationary, and no its that I'm too weak to do it, hell I used to drive and service buses that no power steering on them at all, and they weighed in at 8 tons. I could turn the wheels on them when stationary even.

It's almost impossible to turn the steering on any stationary vehicle without assist and on top of that the manufacturers have made it more difficult in modern vehicles by changing the ratios of the mechanical steering. When the car is moving you should still be able to steer, just more effort is involved.

McBryce.

All I know is that with the ignition on but the engine not running I'm unable to turn my steering wheel. My steering is electrical assist and not hydraulic. Had it been hydraulic that would explain it, but with the engine running I can turn the steering wheel with ease. As to if I can or can't turn the wheel when the car is moving, I have no idea, but would certainly have expected that to be the case for safety sake. That said, I seriously doubt that it would be safe to continue driving without the restoration of the power assistance.

In cars there are (at least) 3 defined power states:
B+ = Things permanently connected to the battery (these have sleep modes to avoid draining the battery)
KL15 = Things that get powered with ignition on but without a running engine.
KL30 = Things that only get powered when the engine is running.

Power steering, A/C, heated windscreen and other heavy loads don't get powered until the engine is running. So your power steering is still off if the engine isn't running.

McBryce.

I beg to differ:

First off these aren't states they're signals or power supply terminals/circuits ("KL" is literally a German abbreviation for terminal/connector - Klemme). Secondly they are (DIN 72552 plus some common industry designations):

KL30 battery positive, permanently connected aka B+
KL31 battery negative, permanently connected aka B-
KL30F battery positive, permanently connected but may be disconnected under 'F'ault conditions
KL30B battery positive, only powered when "driver present" (typically activated by the door being unlocked)
KLR Ignition on position 1 (radio and accessories powered)
KL15 Ignition on position 2 (ready to start/running)
KL50 Ignition on position 3 (engine start signal/starter motor engaged)

[Zucca]

KL30 battery positive, permanently connected aka B+
KL31 battery negative, permanently connected aka B-
KL30F battery positive, permanently connected but may be disconnected under 'F'ault conditions
KL30B battery positive, only powered when "driver present" (typically activated by the door being unlocked)
KLR Ignition on position 1 (radio and accessories powered)
KL15 Ignition on position 2 (ready to start/running)
KL50 Ignition on position 3 (engine start signal/starter motor engaged)

The good old times, starting from 2018 they developed a wonderful new state machine algo that decide and specify all the aboves. 
Don't ask for details, you do not want to know them.

[med6753]

More re-cap work on the Type 547.

This time C771 and C773A/B/C. These capacitors provide additional filtering and decoupling to the Vertical plug-in.




Pulled C771. Left C773A/B/C in place. Original C771 was 2 x 40uf/250V in parallel. Replaced with single 82uf/250V. C773A was 40uf/250V. Replaced with 47uf/250V. C773B was 20uf/350V. Replaced with 22uf/350V. C773C was 20uf/450V. Replaced with 22uf/450V.




This completes the restoration and re-cap work. Checked the -150V reference and in spec. All PSU voltages in spec. As usual sharp trace. Next step is final calibration then project complete.

[McBryce]

Hmm, good luck trying to steer cars from the VW stable when the electrics fail. My steering is impossible to turn the wheel with no electrics and the car is stationary, and no its that I'm too weak to do it, hell I used to drive and service buses that no power steering on them at all, and they weighed in at 8 tons. I could turn the wheels on them when stationary even.

It's almost impossible to turn the steering on any stationary vehicle without assist and on top of that the manufacturers have made it more difficult in modern vehicles by changing the ratios of the mechanical steering. When the car is moving you should still be able to steer, just more effort is involved.

McBryce.

All I know is that with the ignition on but the engine not running I'm unable to turn my steering wheel. My steering is electrical assist and not hydraulic. Had it been hydraulic that would explain it, but with the engine running I can turn the steering wheel with ease. As to if I can or can't turn the wheel when the car is moving, I have no idea, but would certainly have expected that to be the case for safety sake. That said, I seriously doubt that it would be safe to continue driving without the restoration of the power assistance.

In cars there are (at least) 3 defined power states:
B+ = Things permanently connected to the battery (these have sleep modes to avoid draining the battery)
KL15 = Things that get powered with ignition on but without a running engine.
KL30 = Things that only get powered when the engine is running.

Power steering, A/C, heated windscreen and other heavy loads don't get powered until the engine is running. So your power steering is still off if the engine isn't running.

McBryce.

I beg to differ:

First off these aren't states they're signals or power supply terminals/circuits ("KL" is literally a German abbreviation for terminal/connector - Klemme). Secondly they are (DIN 72552 plus some common industry designations):

KL30 battery positive, permanently connected aka B+
KL31 battery negative, permanently connected aka B-
KL30F battery positive, permanently connected but may be disconnected under 'F'ault conditions
KL30B battery positive, only powered when "driver present" (typically activated by the door being unlocked)
KLR Ignition on position 1 (radio and accessories powered)
KL15 Ignition on position 2 (ready to start/running)
KL50 Ignition on position 3 (engine start signal/starter motor engaged)

Sorry, you are of course 100% correct. Shame on me for slapping a half-hearted post together on a mobile phone at the traffic lights.
To be honest, I haven't had to use or work with these terms for many many years. I just push paper these days.

McBryce.

[Robert763]

The seat-belt bitchamatron beeping

It is there to make it nigh impossible to drive without being belted. That is a good thing for you, so stop bitching and buckle up.

I've had the belt/airbag bruises and scars from crashes I would not have walked/limped from had I not been buckled up, and I cherish the memories, because I would perhaps not be alive to do so otherwise.

Indeed,
I remember the law comming in to force in the UK. The boss at my part time job was vaery pro seat belts and he was a direct example of being saved by NOT having one on a few years previously. The rear of his car was sidewiped by a lorry (driver fell asleep) and he was spun of the motoway at high speed. He was flung into the passenger footwell just before the drivers side hit  a concrete bridge butress about 4 ft off the ground. The drivers space was totally destroyed, I've seen the photos. He spent 6 weeks in hospital. He said that there was no way he would ever drive without a seatbelt after that. The chances of surviving that in that way were so small.

[med6753]

Mandatory seat belt use became Federal law once, in 1974. Every new passenger vehicle sold in the USA had a starter interlock to prevent you from starting the car unless the driver and front passenger buckled their seat belt. The public outcry was so loud that the interlock was removed starting in 1975. And the interlock on the 1974 cars was easy to defeat.

As far as I know every state now requires mandatory seat belt use but there is no interlock. Just the reminder light on the dash and the nanny buzzer.

 

[m k]

Get you friend to demonstrate how, while driving along, he deals with

• the screen starts misting up: how does he redirect ventilation
• you are about to drive through smoke from a fire; how does he switch from external air to recirculating air

I can't speak to the Tesla case but the number of bells and whistles in the new (to me) BMW surprised me in this regard. If in "auto" climate mode the answer in both cases would be "nothing", there are sensors for both misting up and external air quality and the car will automatically do the right thing. There are also physical "demist the windows with the aircon" and "fresh/recirculate/auto air circulation" buttons if I have the climate control off or in manual mode. The answer for the old car would vary between "fiddle with lots of manual controls" or "stop and put the roof up/down", but it had the two great advantages over the 'new' car of (1) having a soft top, (2) having the engine just behind the driver's seat - both qualities I shall miss.

Lotus Elise?

1997 MGF VVC

I didn't even know that MG was/is alive, or maybe I did but can't remember.
If I've seen any of those new ones they are probably passed by as Mazdas.

One other car thing.
Already around 20 years ago Citroen(C4) was using some extra electricity tricks, like a double action ash tray light.
The second function is a fuse for headlight height adjuster, what obviously is in annual inspection must work category.
Extra air pump for cold catalysator warm up speed up system is also there.
The pump motor, inside its case, is vertical and in a rubber sock, so water can't, even in theory, leak or dry and a faulty pump will salute you by turning on the engine light.
Maybe profits were just extra low back then.

[m k]

Also have one Thyristor, type 17127A

That number felt very familiar and sort of green.
So, just in case, I have two of them but without A.

Also 2x 17088H & 17089R.

[Vince]

Oh wow, cool, what were the odds ! Incredible... and still in their little boxes...

I see from your pic that it was made by RCA, no wonder I can't find a datasheet for it !   

Well at least your pic show what the pinout is, so it's better than nothing...

[m k]

That HNKRCA from those others didn't help at all.

Google is not a friend.

[cyclin_al]

Yes because also they tend to squeeze a mess of menus of menus inside of a touch screen. An old lady has no chance anymore to operate modern cars correctly.

Even if the layout was perfect, intuitive and didn't require any delving within menu levels, the delicacy and dexterity required to operate a touchscreen, and the focus necessary is a real no-no while trying to control a vehicle in a dynamic situation - dynamic both in terms of physically bouncing around and on terms of a 'dynamic environment' that requires your full attention to keep track of what's happening around you.

I've tried to use a single task touchscreen satnav on the move and determined that, for me at least, that's too difficult and dangerous a thing to be doing. To place most of a vehicle's auxiliary controls on a touchscreen seems to me to be one of the stupidest ideas ever.

And voice control? Let's put it like this, in a modern VW Golf with it you can get into a lot of trouble if you say the wrong sentence including the keyword "Volkwagen" to your passenger(s)...

Exactly this. With a real switch or knob you can locate it by touch without taking your eyes off the road and then activate it.
This is impossible with a touch screen.

Absolutely correct.  Any flight test pilot will go one step further that you should be able to know the position of the control in a  tactile manner from putting your hand on it.   Old automotive HVAC controls are marginal in that you would have to turn the control to a limit and then count back detents to the desired position.  Modern rotary switches do not qualify, and touch screen is far worse.

My criteria is all automotive controls should be able to be operated without vision.  Vision is meant for input and situational awareness of the world outside the car.   No car has passed my criteria, but it feels like lately that none are coming even close.

Displays should be more for confirmation and redundancy, not a necessary thing and definitely not as a distraction.  After all, speed can be estimated by engine sounds, knowing which gear is selected and viewing the world flashing by... and so on.

[cyclin_al]

While I agree that most motors on modern cars are not servo motors, the throttle butterfly on virtually every moden spark ignition engine IS a servo moter with no mechanical back-up This is certainy throttle by wire. Direct injection compression ignition engines also use eectronic throttles.
Steering uses an electric or electrically controlled hydraulic servo system on a lot of modern cars. This is steer by wire. There is a mechanical connection for back-up but it is only to get you to the side of the road. Automatic transmissions on modern cars have no mechanical linkage to the selector So three out of the four major controls require electronics for operation. I think that makes it Drive by Wire. On most cars the brake system also requires electronics to work fully. some even have electric parking / emergency brakes so that bit is brake by wire.
I agree too much electronics in general.

The CR-V has all that crap except the parking brake. It is cable operated.

The Civic has none of that crap. Mechanical throttle. Vacuum assisted power brakes with no ABS. Hydraulic power steering. Manual transmission. No traction control or similar. Manual roll down windows. Manual door locks. The ECU controls engine functions only and maybe the HVAC and charging system.

The newer ones are not like yours!

Most of those that you mentioned are electronic on the Clarity (a Honda like your fleet).

Subaru is much the same way.  I keep a 2004 Impreza for real driving, although the 2018 Impreza is for commuting/road trips.

EDIT:

Hmm, good luck trying to steer cars from the VW stable when the electrics fail. My steering is impossible to turn the wheel with no electrics and the car is stationary, and no its that I'm too weak to do it, hell I used to drive and service buses that no power steering on them at all, and they weighed in at 8 tons. I could turn the wheels on them when stationary even.

Not just VW.  Authorities in North America have investigated and mandated recalls due to impossible steering coupled with unreliable electrics.

[Zucca]

This is a good idea.

BTW, the most dangerous touch display is statistically the driver phone one. 

[Specmaster]

I know that somefolk love to pour scorn on Skoda's, but they are seriously misguided and I suggest that they go test drive one and have their minds changed.

No, we love to take the piss out of our mates who have Škoda's, there's a difference. 

HaHa, I still take mine over yours any day 

By the way, you do know what BMW means don't you? Back in Mechanics Workshop 

I refer my honourable friend to Ms. Rice-Davis' reply in Crown vs. Ward and the respondent's reply in Arkell vs. Pressdram. 

Foxtrot Oscar, there's a good boy 

[Specmaster]

Another bit of stupidity: The seat-belt bitchamatron beeping takes precedence over all other auditory notification, including essential driver information like the turn-signal tick-tick and even the collision-avoidance emergency klaxon.

Hold on, let me get a beer and some popcorn, I wanna hear how you found out that exact final particular nugget of information! 

Yeah, I'm not always best at getting my seatbelt on in a timely fashion except when the kids are in the car; the design places them pretty inconveniently to reach and the receiver for the buckle is deep in the seat and doesn't self-align (more really bad engineering) but rather fights you plugging it in. 

Also, probably a bit of perverse subconscious resistance to being nagged by the bitch-in-a-box. 

As for "How I know this..." Well, the collision avoidance warning resets itself every time the ignition is turned on, so rarely gets turned off, and it is pretty aggressive. As in some dingbat changing lanes a couple car-lengths ahead of me can set it off if they're moving quick enough, even though most drivers would consider it just normal city traffic or at worst "a wee bit of a rude driver".

Now imagine if said driver really did cut it close during that 30-60 seconds I sometimes take to "get around to it" or while I'm fumbling with my seatbelt because the bucking fuckle fights you... like close enough to trigger level 3; which is actual collision avoidance brake activation. It hasn't happened yet, but it probably is just a matter of time. And it is very obvious no real usability testing was done on this, because what happens when the driver ignores the bitch-a-ma-tron is an obvious real-world scenario which should be tested for.

Yeah, yeah, yeah... I know I should be wearing my seatbelt before I put it in gear. All I can claim in my defense is the usual old fart syndrome.

mnem
 

HaHa.. Translation, someone's loud arse gets in the way of the seatbelt buckle, something I'm familiar with. But here's the thing, I make sure my belt is on, before I drive off, that is just a question of self preservation.

[mnementh]

I've owned at least a dozen cars that never had them, and most of those were when I was in my "formative years". Old habits die hard. And the fact is, it's still none of the car's fucking business if I'm wearing my seatbelt. If you want to come nag me about my seatbelt in person, more power tooya. But programming my car to do it and I don't have a say in the matter...? FUCK YOU.

As for the seatbelt buckle... no, it's just awful. Everybody has trouble with them, even the stringbean boi. If you don't get it perfectly centered and square, it jams up. Period. It's like this:



Which is more than a wee bit ironically perverse when you've got the car bitching at you about not having your seatbelt on, but at the same time it is fighting you while you're trying to do it.

mnem
The perversity of the Universe tends to the maximum.

[bd139]

Ugh one of those days.

50/50 on the Dunstable Downs boot sale now. Had a bit of a sore right foot when I got back from hiking on Sunday which isn't unusual. Well roll on today and I got out of bed and fell on my arse instantly when I put weight on it. It turns out I managed to fuck up my right leg achilles tendon completely . Got a nice large bag of naproxen and codeine to play with from the hospital though. Hopefully it'll be good enough for a Sunday drive and hobble through a field of stinky old hams (present company excepted from that - I think  ).

Some good news though. When I was hobbling around earlier I found some more test leads lurking in a bag that had fallen down the back of the hall cupboard shelves. Including a couple of Pomona BNC ones. Still devoid of anything suitable for firing up the Heathkit counter yet. Grr.  Also found a roll of really nice pink teflon hookup wire I bought about 10 years ago and forgot about.

[Robert763]

So the DDC HSR-203 SYNCHRO/RESOLVER ANGLE INDICATOR arrived. Dispite being "untested" it is working fine from a quick test. The display filter has started to delaminate but the display is perfecty readable in normal light. I've been having a bit of a clearout and stuff seems to be selling really well on ebay despite the supposed squeeze.
I've not seen much to buy though. I've a couple of tools coming later in the week though.
Looking forward to the Dunstable Downs car boot on Sunday.

[DH7DN]

Space Ceiling, the final frontier... These are the voyages of a TEA guy. His continuing mission, To explore his apartment and basement, to seek out new Test Equipment and new bargains money sinks. To boldly measure quantities which no (wo)man has done before."

 

I'll take that PG507 from the top shelf thanks! 

I wish I had one spare for you   

The guy who sold it to me confessed like this: "I'm a ham radio operator and I [desperately] need to reduce my inventory" 

[tautech]

Nothing in the modern vehicle is worse than this and if it can't be easily disabled I'm buying something else ! 

I see, so dying in the modern vehicle is less of a nuisance?

You need get out and about more. 
Recently as a passenger in a 4x4 .....something that you city folk may not be aware of is they are frequently used off public roads and at combatively low speed where also as a rural work vehicle in and out of it often opening gates and such a permanently bleeping beeping seatbelt warning all day everyday is nothing but misery !

I'll stick to my guns on this, if it can't be disabled it can go back to its maker and be shoved where the sun don't shine !   
Door not shut buzzers get the same treatment here too......oh inside light is On or the door warning light on the dashboard and I must have an audible warning too ? FFS if I can't see the obvious door open indicators then I shouldn't be driving. 

[vutt]

Bought recently my very first full scale bench SA - Advantest U4341.
Finally decided to be little bit bolder with disassembly in order to chase off all those 25+year old dust bunnies 

One of the boards (pic attached) is sporting ungodly amount of jump wires. Hm Advantest/TR isn't your random back alley garage shop. How could this happen?!?

[Robert763]

Just checked on ebay and found a offer I put in on a E2V Argus 3 thermal imager has been accepted. As if i needed a third TI.
At least this one will do false colour which a lot of people like to see. It needs to be enabled via a serial interface. It uses the same Raytheon peltier cooled 320x240 25/30 fps pixel BST sensor as my wasp. It seems complete and comes from a seller of mostly military / aviation surplus.
Photos when it turns up.

[tggzzz]

Yes because also they tend to squeeze a mess of menus of menus inside of a touch screen. An old lady has no chance anymore to operate modern cars correctly.

Even if the layout was perfect, intuitive and didn't require any delving within menu levels, the delicacy and dexterity required to operate a touchscreen, and the focus necessary is a real no-no while trying to control a vehicle in a dynamic situation - dynamic both in terms of physically bouncing around and on terms of a 'dynamic environment' that requires your full attention to keep track of what's happening around you.

I've tried to use a single task touchscreen satnav on the move and determined that, for me at least, that's too difficult and dangerous a thing to be doing. To place most of a vehicle's auxiliary controls on a touchscreen seems to me to be one of the stupidest ideas ever.

And voice control? Let's put it like this, in a modern VW Golf with it you can get into a lot of trouble if you say the wrong sentence including the keyword "Volkwagen" to your passenger(s)...

Exactly this. With a real switch or knob you can locate it by touch without taking your eyes off the road and then activate it.
This is impossible with a touch screen.

Absolutely correct.  Any flight test pilot will go one step further that you should be able to know the position of the control in a  tactile manner from putting your hand on it.   Old automotive HVAC controls are marginal in that you would have to turn the control to a limit and then count back detents to the desired position.  Modern rotary switches do not qualify, and touch screen is far worse.

My criteria is all automotive controls should be able to be operated without vision.  Vision is meant for input and situational awareness of the world outside the car.   No car has passed my criteria, but it feels like lately that none are coming even close.

Displays should be more for confirmation and redundancy, not a necessary thing and definitely not as a distraction.  After all, speed can be estimated by engine sounds, knowing which gear is selected and viewing the world flashing by... and so on.

Just so, but I can add two other classes of users...

As a glider pilot waiting for launch, I regularly grabbed the airbrake, realised the feel was wrong, and grabbed the cable release. Using the airbrake instead of the cable release would probably have been fatal.

I remember seeing a photo of the control room of a new nuke plant. All control levers  and dials were standardised (and looked very neat), so the first thing the operators did was fix different shapes onto the critical levers. Looked a mess, and made the designers look clueless.

[mnementh]

boom.

mnem
 

[tggzzz]

Ugh one of those days.

50/50 on the Dunstable Downs boot sale now. Had a bit of a sore right foot when I got back from hiking on Sunday which isn't unusual. Well roll on today and I got out of bed and fell on my arse instantly when I put weight on it. It turns out I managed to fuck up my right leg achilles tendon completely . Got a nice large bag of naproxen and codeine to play with from the hospital though. Hopefully it'll be good enough for a Sunday drive and hobble through a field of stinky old hams (present company excepted from that - I think  ).

Unpleasant.

Consider putting some scrap in the car and paying £10 to be a trader. If you sell something,that would be a bonus!