Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14550476 times)

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Offline Robert763

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120050 on: May 18, 2022, 05:07:52 pm »
A package arrived  :)
A clue inside.
New stuff for a change  8). Damm enablers  >:D
At least I can undo odd size connectors with flats up to 2mm wide without leaving plier marks. I have proper slim spanners for the common sizes.
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120051 on: May 18, 2022, 05:17:51 pm »
Fridge repair
...
In the meantime I have to cycle the fridge/copressor on and off by hand to keep my food fresh..... old man says ratio is about a third to a fourth. So total run time per day / 24H must be 6 to 8H, something like that. So ideally turn it on 15 minutes then turn it off for 30 to 45 minutes. but that's too much work for me... I am no slave. So I guess it will be more like 1hour on and 2 or 3 hours off....
...
Typical job for a microcontroller  >:D :-DD :-DD
/Ducks incoming wave of boots

Yep but the lab is not yet setup for that at all, so not possible to do that in an emergency. So analog it will have to be as no need for a computer or programming, just a brain, pen and paper !  >:D
 

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120052 on: May 18, 2022, 05:25:47 pm »
Fridge repair
...
In the meantime I have to cycle the fridge/copressor on and off by hand to keep my food fresh..... old man says ratio is about a third to a fourth. So total run time per day / 24H must be 6 to 8H, something like that. So ideally turn it on 15 minutes then turn it off for 30 to 45 minutes. but that's too much work for me... I am no slave. So I guess it will be more like 1hour on and 2 or 3 hours off....
...
Typical job for a microcontroller  >:D :-DD :-DD
/Ducks incoming wave of boots

Yep but the lab is not yet setup for that at all, so not possible to do that in an emergency. So analog it will have to be as no need for a computer or programming, just a brain, pen and paper !  >:D

Have you got a thermistor/thermocouple and a comparator/op-amp? Just switch the motor off when it gets to 60 Celsius or so, turn it back on at 40.
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120053 on: May 18, 2022, 05:32:30 pm »
Nope don't have thermistors....

Just looked in my stock of IC's. thank goodness I did do a rough sorting already a few weeks back... I separated the Digital IC's from the Analog ones, so that made my search much quicker. I found one N555N.

Going to download that datasheet for it, it will probably include the standard schematic for  variable duty cycle oscillator, if not I will just google it.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 05:35:35 pm by Vince »
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120054 on: May 18, 2022, 05:34:42 pm »
Borrow the one from your meter or microwave oven or meat thermometer.

Don't forget the circulating fan in your plans, otherwise your fridge won't get any cold and the evap will frost over.

mnem
 :popcorn:

« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 05:53:37 pm by mnementh »
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120055 on: May 18, 2022, 05:37:28 pm »
Borrow the one from your meter or microwave oven or meat thermometer.

mnem
 :popcorn:

What "meter" ? No not going to dismantle my poor u-wave oven !!  :horse:
No meat thermometer here either.

I want to design this thing, the time pressure / emergency makes it even more fun...
 

Offline Zoli

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120056 on: May 18, 2022, 05:37:58 pm »
Fridge repair
...
In the meantime I have to cycle the fridge/copressor on and off by hand to keep my food fresh..... old man says ratio is about a third to a fourth. So total run time per day / 24H must be 6 to 8H, something like that. So ideally turn it on 15 minutes then turn it off for 30 to 45 minutes. but that's too much work for me... I am no slave. So I guess it will be more like 1hour on and 2 or 3 hours off....
...
Typical job for a microcontroller  >:D :-DD :-DD
/Ducks incoming wave of boots

Yep but the lab is not yet setup for that at all, so not possible to do that in an emergency. So analog it will have to be as no need for a computer or programming, just a brain, pen and paper !  >:D
Then 2XCD4060+CD4001/4011; one 4060 set for 15 min, the other  for 30/45min, the 4001/4011 keep one in reset while the other one is counting.
Typical pen, paper, brain and breadboard problem ;)
/back to wind some ferrite toroids
 
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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120057 on: May 18, 2022, 05:48:00 pm »
Nope don't have thermistors....

Just looked in my stock of IC's. thank goodness I did do a rough sorting already a few weeks back... I separated the Digital IC's from the Analog ones, so that made my search much quicker. I found one N555N.

Going to download that datasheet for it, it will probably include the standard schematic for  variable duty cycle oscillator, if not I will just google it.

You just vary the proportion of the discharge resistor (between +ve and pin 7) and the threshold+trigger resistor (between 7 and 6+2). This stuff is burned into my brain...   :scared:
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120058 on: May 18, 2022, 05:48:32 pm »
Oh there are CMOS chips dedicated to generating long periods ?! Cool.... sadly though I do have lots of TTL chips, I only have a few random 4000 CMOS chips, and they aren't sorted/easily accessible. The TTL chips are plenty and sorted all in one drawer, in little bins... so quickest route first !

Will have a quick look for the 4060 just in case I might have one, though, as it sounds like a nifty little chip indeed ! >:D
You never know your luck...

 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120059 on: May 18, 2022, 05:56:17 pm »
Nope don't have thermistors....

Just looked in my stock of IC's. thank goodness I did do a rough sorting already a few weeks back... I separated the Digital IC's from the Analog ones, so that made my search much quicker. I found one N555N.

Going to download that datasheet for it, it will probably include the standard schematic for  variable duty cycle oscillator, if not I will just google it.

You just vary the proportion of the discharge resistor (between +ve and pin 7) and the threshold+trigger resistor (between 7 and 6+2). This stuff is burned into my brain...   :scared:


Wow I am impressed, I think you need to seek help !  :-DD

Just realized I don't even need to bother keeping the frequency constant while modifying the duty cycle... I can just keep say the OFF time constant and only vary the ON time. Doing so will vary the frequency a bit, but it's of zero importance here !  :palm:   Only the ratio / DC is important...

OK so it's dead simple, let's get cracking, I have the breadboard and a NE555N out on the bench !!  >:D
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120060 on: May 18, 2022, 06:01:46 pm »
Borrow the one from your meter or microwave oven or meat thermometer.

mnem
 :popcorn:

What "meter" ? No not going to dismantle my poor u-wave oven !!  :horse:
No meat thermometer here either.

I want to design this thing, the time pressure / emergency makes it even more fun...
So... you don't have a proper bench thermometer, or even a "K" thermocouple as used on almost every DMM since the dawn of time...?

What. The. Actual. Fuck.  :wtf:

Seriously, this is an egregious shortcoming we shall have to pick on you for... at least the next 5 minutes.  :-DD

If you go dismantle that cheap digital thermometer you have on the wall right now we'll forgive you... for now.  >:D

mnem
pssst... on most microwaves that have a thermometer, it plugs in. Easy-peasy to borrow. ;)
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120061 on: May 18, 2022, 06:11:36 pm »
Borrow the one from your meter or microwave oven or meat thermometer.

mnem
 :popcorn:

What "meter" ? No not going to dismantle my poor u-wave oven !!  :horse:
No meat thermometer here either.

I want to design this thing, the time pressure / emergency makes it even more fun...
So... you don't have a proper bench thermometer, or even a "K" thermocouple as used on almost every DMM since the dawn of time...?

What. The. Actual. Fuck.  :wtf:

Seriously, this is an egregious shortcoming we shall have to pick on you for... at least the next 5 minutes.  :-DD


I do indeed would love to be able to measure temperature, it's on my todo list.
I do have one DMM that can measure temperature. My Metrix MX54C. It's the only one in the MX 53/54/56 that can do so.
But I have yet to buy a thermo-couple for it. But I know nothing of this subject, so I don't know what to buy where, what problem I could potentially run into with cheap crap ones, if I unknowingly bought one.
So if people can answer these questions and show me a decent affordable one for hobbyist / occasional use, I am all ears...


Quote from: mnementh
If you go dismantle that cheap digital thermometer you have on the wall right now we'll forgive you... for now.  >:D
mnem

?? What " thermometer on the wall "  are you toolking aboot, as Dwagon would say ?!


I just founda 55 "calculator" online that, when I give it the required info, frequency and duty cycle, it spits out NEGATIVE resistor values !  :-DD

I think I will just go by the datasheet and use my brain and TI85 calculator instead.... sounds safer this way....


 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120062 on: May 18, 2022, 06:19:35 pm »

WIFI with async web services NICE TO HAVE, but I do not want to chose a wifi board which compromise the stability.

Learning MQTT right now, very interesting stuff, but I have no experience with it. Pondering to have a stupid (BUT REALIABLE) wifi board (looks like not ESP32) and move the horse power into the MQTT brocker/server.

Slightly off topic question, why it is so hard to find a RELIABLE SBC platform?

The clue to doing reliable, scalable, maintainable software systems is to have a good separation between functional parts. A minimal sensor implementation that throws MQTT messages, to a hub pair, off of which consumers, several, can siphon the data is a clever thing. One of the consumers should be persistent storage, others can be things like near-real-time displays et c.

I've done a lot of data collection in the times before MQTT et al, where I got the values in, made SQL statements of them, threw them on the end of a defined file name, and then put that file as standard-in to a mysql client, with && rm file on the end. If the SQL operation runs well, the file is cleaned, if not, it is a cache of statements to be inserted later. This very well survives shaky Internet connections.

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120063 on: May 18, 2022, 06:20:26 pm »
There is FreeBSD for Raspberry Pi.


mnem
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and even if you're successful, no good can possibly come of it." ~me
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120064 on: May 18, 2022, 06:30:26 pm »
...If you go dismantle that cheap digital thermometer you have on the wall right now we'll forgive you... for now.  >:D

?? What " thermometer on the wall "  are you toolking aboot, as Dwagon would say ?!

So wait... you don't even have a household thermometer...? How dooya know when it's time to sweat...? Or cold enough to shiver?

*points and giggles* Look everybody... the amazing temperature-defective frog-gineer...  :-DD

mnem
Okay... your 5 minutes are up. I'm not allowed to abuse you anymore until you pay again. >:D
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120065 on: May 18, 2022, 06:40:23 pm »
I do indeed would love to be able to measure temperature, it's on my todo list.
I do have one DMM that can measure temperature. My Metrix MX54C. It's the only one in the MX 53/54/56 that can do so.
But I have yet to buy a thermo-couple for it. But I know nothing of this subject, so I don't know what to buy where, what problem I could potentially run into with cheap crap ones, if I unknowingly bought one.
So if people can answer these questions and show me a decent affordable one for hobbyist / occasional use, I am all ears...
As I suggested earlier; if it's a DMM, odds are it's a type K thermocouple. Look at the manual for your meter. You can literally buy these as a universal with banana plugs for 3 bux shipped on fleaBay, and they're going to be close enough for all practical porpoises (and more practical cetaceans) no matter who made them. They're literally a jellybean bit. You don't have to spend more than this unless you have a real need for laboratory precision.

Cheers,

mnem
 :-/O
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120066 on: May 18, 2022, 06:45:58 pm »
...If you go dismantle that cheap digital thermometer you have on the wall right now we'll forgive you... for now.  >:D

?? What " thermometer on the wall "  are you toolking aboot, as Dwagon would say ?!

So wait... you don't even have a household thermometer...? How dooya know when it's time to sweat...? Or cold enough to shiver?

*points and giggles* Look everybody... the amazing temperature-defective frog-gineer...  :-DD

mnem
Okay... your 5 minutes are up. I'm not allowed to abuse you anymore until you pay again. >:D

No, no need for that. The heater (burns wood pellets) is in the living room of course. House is small, only 60m2, all at ground level. Tee heater has a built-in thermostat, works just fine. I have spent 3 winters in this house now, and never felt the need for a remote/wall thermostat. I just set the heater thermostat to 19°C and that's all, I never have to touch it...

Have this one :  http://www.red365.it/fr/s1-poeles/

Well merely because that's what my house builder proposed to me...
I did ask about the existence of a remote/ wall thermostat. He said yes it does exist, WIfi thing, but he wanted 300 Euros for it ! I said fuck it I am not paying 300 Euros for 4 buck WIfi freaking thermometer ! He then replied 300 is a good price, retail is 500 !  :wtf:

So I said fuck it no way, can't afford it anyway. So when realized there was zero need for a remote thingy, I said fuck it I am not going to buy one.

The electronics  in this heater is crap though. Got the "obligatory" eye bleeding blue backlit graphical LCD.  Problem is, nothing to do with the LCD though, it that the clock in this thing is CRAP ! It runs way too fast ! In just a few weeks it reads several minutes ahead of all my other clocks !  :wtf:

Like I don't know, say I set it to 20H00 one day, well a month later or whatever, it will say 20H05 or something ! :palm:

First time in my life I see a clock that's so crap. Maybe it uses a dedicated RTC chip that runs on its own crystal oscillator, and the crystal is bad. Might crack the heater open one day to pull the electronics board ouf of it and study it a bit... that would male for some appropriate TEA content to boot...  >:D



« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 06:55:56 pm by Vince »
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120067 on: May 18, 2022, 06:51:08 pm »
Okay, okay... I'm done teasing.  ;)

It's just that there are thermistors and thermocouples everywhere in our lives; it wouldn't surprise me if you have a old PCB, maybe one from a power supply (PC power supplies almost always do) or even a SMPS wall-wart that has one in it.

Oh... another thing. If you have a dead rechargeable battery pack from a laptop, phone, camera, tablet or power tool lying around... odds are it has a thermistor you can repurpose for this experiment as well.

Cheers!

mnem
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120068 on: May 18, 2022, 07:01:03 pm »
I do indeed would love to be able to measure temperature, it's on my todo list.
I do have one DMM that can measure temperature. My Metrix MX54C. It's the only one in the MX 53/54/56 that can do so.
But I have yet to buy a thermo-couple for it. But I know nothing of this subject, so I don't know what to buy where, what problem I could potentially run into with cheap crap ones, if I unknowingly bought one.
So if people can answer these questions and show me a decent affordable one for hobbyist / occasional use, I am all ears...
As I suggested earlier; if it's a DMM, odds are it's a type K thermocouple. Look at the manual for your meter. You can literally buy these as a universal with banana plugs for 3 bux shipped on fleaBay, and they're going to be close enough for all practical porpoises (and more practical cetaceans) no matter who made them. They're literally a jellybean bit. You don't have to spend more than this unless you have a real need for laboratory precision.

Cheers,

mnem
 :-/O

So you mean they aren't bad ones, I can just buy the fisrt random generic nu branded super cheap one on Ebay or XYZ, and it will be just fine ?
3 bucks at that ?!

Well OK will buy one real soon then !  :D

The MX54C can use either a PT100 or PT1000 thermocouple, if I believe the documentation I have, below.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 08:44:08 pm by Vince »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120069 on: May 18, 2022, 07:01:17 pm »
Edit to keep on topic since we've advanced a page....



I popped the cover off of the 4800A and took a few more pictures of it.  Normal HP construction of the era - well laid out and easy to access, no surprises.
Top view of open chassis:


The oscillator circuitry resides inside the shielded box in the front right corner:


Other pics at: https://pmanning.smugmug.com/Electronics/HP-4800A-Vector-Impedance-Meter  (Crappy iPad pics, at some point I'll take better ones with the DSLR)

-Pat

Great post. Thoroughly enjoyed that. I actually spent an hour or so reading the HP 4800A service manual and reverse engineering the A1 / A9 utility amplifiers. Very nice little discrete opamp.

Now I want one  :-DD
 
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120070 on: May 18, 2022, 07:13:05 pm »
Borrow the one from your meter or microwave oven or meat thermometer.

mnem
 :popcorn:

What "meter" ? No not going to dismantle my poor u-wave oven !!  :horse:
No meat thermometer here either.

I want to design this thing, the time pressure / emergency makes it even more fun...
I would go into my cellar storage, fetch a industrial standalone controller with a range extending to 0...10°C (PT100-based, Philips, Siemens, ICE, Jumo, PCE - there is at least one around), and if I wouldn't find any, I would set up a controller using a S5-95U or -100U. Then jury-rig it into the place of the fridge thermostat.
Do you need a controlller now? (not the S5's of course, because they fall under the 'my preciousss' category.)
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 07:30:53 pm by Neomys Sapiens »
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120071 on: May 18, 2022, 07:28:14 pm »
Many electronic thermometers (Metrawatt, Beha) have an analogue voltage output for recorder connection. (usually 0..1/5/10V). Working with a comparator from this standardised signal would be much easier, of course.
If I look around here, I could even use the huge YEW strip recorder with stopped recording and abuse the limit alarm contacts..
With a proper PID controller, you would probably tell us all in a week how a fridge should really be run...
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 07:30:28 pm by Neomys Sapiens »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120072 on: May 18, 2022, 07:30:46 pm »
Since I burned my fingers with the evil raspberries (I do not like them...) this time I ask before.

Are you happy with the ESP32 based boards? Is the ESP32 running stable for you? Can be used in production?´
Many thanks.

I’ve stayed away after reading horror stories. Things like crashes when you write to flash during interrupts, undocumented behaviour and the ADC sucking complete balls. However there are very few SoC at that level which have the out of box features you might need and you can actually still get the things.

Ergo I’d put the engineering hat on, write your feature requirements down, do a KT decision analysis against that and STM32 and see what comes out.

As for seatbelts, I only wear them on Mondays, Thursdays and occasionally Sundays  :popcorn: *

* oh the power of carefully misstating positions

And then completely fail to find any stock of the STM32 model arrived at.

Actually, there are some relatively new STM32s with onboard wireless functions (if that's why the ESP32 is of interest) and they're new enough that few are actually being used in production, which means there is a little stock availability of them. However they are mostly dual core and rely on that for the wireless functionality, so there are many subtle synchronisation bugs awaiting the unwary embedded programmer who doesn't have a solid understanding of the same.

Many thanks to all you gang! As always it is beautiful to swim in this TEA pond.
For production I mean something that do not crash for unknown reasons and leave you with a sad monkey face.
Example for production level SW: FreeBSD, ZFS, just to understand what I am talking about.

I do not want cheap stuff, I want stuff that is reliable and don't care too much about money.

I do not want to touch thinker stuff anymore.
If I need to invest my time to learn new stuff, no problem but I do not want to be disappointed later.
Learning FreeBSD after many decades or windows was not easy but boy it was worth every single penny.

Basically I need just a µC to collect/process temperature and relative humidity and show them up in a display (touchy, why not? it will not used in a car).
Target is a dew point calculation, maybe with an air pressure sensor in the big picture.

I am in a very early design stage I just want to start with the right foot.

WIFI with async web services NICE TO HAVE, but I do not want to chose a wifi board which compromise the stability.

Learning MQTT right now, very interesting stuff, but I have no experience with it. Pondering to have a stupid (BUT REALIABLE) wifi board (looks like not ESP32) and move the horse power into the MQTT brocker/server.

Slightly off topic question, why it is so hard to find a RELIABLE SBC platform?

Did some thinking about this and I know how I would solve this on a "mid range cost scale". I'd look at something like Digi XBee ( https://www.digi.com/xbee ). They do simple and cheap endpoint modules and gateways that bridge between their network and IP networks. Then I'd use a custom board for the sensor side of things which basically plops an AVR, ICSP header, sensor interface and power management on it. Why AVR? Because the AVR-GCC stack is the least painful and you can run FreeRTOS on it without too much difficulty. Less difficulty than it its pissing around with STM32 and working out which bits of the ST data sheets are built on stacks of lies and dung beetle collections anyway.

That does away with MQTT and transport concerns as well.

 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120073 on: May 18, 2022, 07:35:02 pm »
P.S.2: refitting a switch contact to analogue meter movements (or watches) is described in detail in the Lockerbie report, I think!  >:D
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120074 on: May 18, 2022, 07:35:27 pm »
Your eyes are not deceiving you. There are 3 of them. 2 fully functional and 1 still needs some work. Ever since college 51 years ago I've wanted a Type 547. In the past year or so the TE gods have seen fit to bless me with 3 of them. I'll describe the story of each in detail.

Amazing work as always. Another great read.  :-+

I'm glad there's some TE content in here still  :-DD

Getting hankering for HP and Tek kit now  :popcorn:
 
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