Author Topic: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread  (Read 14556661 times)

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Offline Zoli

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120175 on: May 19, 2022, 05:41:53 pm »
Fridge Timer Update
...
No, I ma NOT going to destroy my Dim Bulb Tester merely to get a socket !  :horse:
...
Instead destroy a light bulb, connect the socket to the relay, then borrow the dim bulb tester for the purpose - problem solved.
As side effect, the use of the dim bulb tester will ensure that the modification don't became permanent(Hi Murphy).  >:D :-DD :-DD :-DD
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120176 on: May 19, 2022, 05:43:14 pm »
Fridge Timer Update


OK so picked a relay, plenty to choose from with a 12V coil.  Picked a big ass one to be sure it doesn't catch fire, and also because it's got a transparent case. I don't trust relays... I want to see inside to see condition of the contacts and if they operate properly. Also it's just cool to see the contacts  8)

Measured coil resistance, 220R. Under 12V supply minus teh transistor saturation voltage, about 50+ mA.

Picked a 2N2222A transistor, 800mA so plenty enough. hFE 75 so a single mA in the base should be enough. Of course I doubled that hence the 47K as the pull-up in the diode NOR gate, which doubles as the base resistor for the transistor.

I added a diode in series with the base of the transistors to make sure it's not on the vege of conducting when the diodes of the NOR gate are pulled low. That would ruin my day.

I like my transistors so I added a free-wheeling diode across the relay coil. Found a 2A 600V one, should do it  ;D

Then added  a green LED across the coil to provide feedback, tell me when the fridge compressor is running.

Then I fired all that up and... worked first time !!!  :D

Look at that !!!

So now I need solder it permanently on a proper proto board, and I need to make a 12V power supply for it. Well I could just use a spare car battery I have here in the living room just a meter away from the fridge. That would the easiest and fastest way to go about it I guess !  :-DD
However would be cool to power it from the mains instead... would be neater, more practical than having an external power supply...

I will see what I can find laying around. Worse case.. a cheap consumer grade supply, as I have seen so many times.... just a Zener diode with a beefy 3W or so 100K+ series resistor and call it a day !
I had that in an Espresso coffee machine.... and that was powering directly a couple CMOS chips... and it was working just fine !  :o
I do have the relay drawing 60mA for 25% of the time though... so at least I would need a big reservoir cap to store that burst of current.

Stay tuned !  8)

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention back when you were working on the timer... just to be sure: You need to make sure the compressor has off time of at least 5-10 minutes to allow the refrigerant to bleed back, or the compressor will be trying to start against a partial head of freon under pressure.

Should not run much more than 5-10 minutes at a time, unless trying to bring temp down a lot of degrees. Oh, and make sure you include the circulating fan in your plans, so it runs as well; if you don't, the fridge side will not get any cold air and the evap will frost shut in the freezer side.

mnem
 :-/O

You have not been listening !  >:D

Runs one a one hour cycle with a 25% duty cycle. Compressor runs for 15min, off for 45 min rinse and repeat. Old man been training white good repair technicians for 35 years, he knows what a fridge is .... I am not pulling these numbers out of my butt !  >:D
He also replaced the compressor 20 years ago (fridge is from 1985, older than I thought), with one made in Sweden, apparently they made good compressors back then, still working really well.

In the video the relay runs much faster because as explained in the relevant post it's for practicality during the design phase. I was not going to sit for 2 hour waiting for the scope to draw me a trace, so I tapped the frequency divider chain on Q4 and Q5, that run obviously much faster, rather than Q13 and Q14 that will be used later to achieve the 60 minute period.

I hope that clears it up for you Dwagon, not worried any more ?!  >:D

 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120177 on: May 19, 2022, 05:44:14 pm »
Currently doing battle with my fecking ink jet printer which prints in colour, only if you want black :rant: :rant: :rant:

HP? Send it back to hell  >:D

Sitting on a train here on way to random meetup.com curry night. Wish my intestines luck  :-DD
We have a second-hand HP all-in-One inkjet we quite like... about 5 years old, has automatic sheet feeder on the scanner and does NOT have the usual HP printhead integrated into the cartridge, but rather separate tanks. So ink is effing cheap. Like 2 full sets, including oversized black tank, for ~$20 delivered next day via Prime.  :-+

Also, fuck your intestines.  :-DD They deserve you.

mnem
and you deserve what you get for torturing them with gigadoses of curry.   >:D
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120178 on: May 19, 2022, 05:45:55 pm »
Currently doing battle with my fecking ink jet printer which prints in colour, only if you want black :rant: :rant: :rant:

HP? Send it back to hell  >:D

Sitting on a train here on way to random meetup.com curry night. Wish my intestines luck  :-DD
Hmm, curry and a redhead sounds a tad risky, what could possibly go wrong  :o At least on the ink jet front, ground is being taken at a rate never before seen, at last  :-+
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
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Offline Zoli

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120179 on: May 19, 2022, 05:46:24 pm »
Fridge Timer Update


OK so picked a relay, plenty to choose from with a 12V coil.  Picked a big ass one to be sure it doesn't catch fire, and also because it's got a transparent case. I don't trust relays... I want to see inside to see condition of the contacts and if they operate properly. Also it's just cool to see the contacts  8)

...

Then added  a green LED across the coil to provide feedback, tell me when the fridge compressor is running.

Then I fired all that up and... worked first time !!!  :D



My bet is: When you use it to switch the actual compressor, EMI from the relay contacts will disturb you circuit, e.g. the counter skipping an amount of clock pulses, and the switching cycle might be faster or otherwise unexpected.

If you will have done everything right, it'll work and prove me wrong  >:D
Helping out Vince: the counter goes to 16383; I estimate that the relay will add max 20 cycles which is ~0.1%; I think the oscillator stability is worse than that... :-DD :-DD :-DD
 

Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120180 on: May 19, 2022, 05:51:24 pm »
Currently doing battle with my fecking ink jet printer which prints in colour, only if you want black :rant: :rant: :rant:

HP? Send it back to hell  >:D

Sitting on a train here on way to random meetup.com curry night. Wish my intestines luck  :-DD
We have a second-hand HP all-in-One inkjet we quite like... about 5 years old, has automatic sheet feeder on the scanner and does NOT have the usual HP printhead integrated into the cartridge, but rather separate tanks. So ink is effing cheap. Like 2 full sets, including oversized black tank, for ~$20 delivered next day via Prime.  :-+

Also, fuck your intestines.  :-DD They deserve you.

mnem
and you deserve what you get for torturing them with gigadoses of curry.   >:D
Today for the very first time, I discovered how to refill my cartridges, previously I was unable to find anything online to assist in that dept. I always used to fill all my printers, and still have plenty of bulk ink, so that is now going into this Brother MFC-J5910DW printer which I like, when it works, It is about 8 years old now though, but it is a scanner, fax, copier and a network printer that will also print A3, but only scan A4.
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120181 on: May 19, 2022, 05:56:49 pm »
...I hope that clears it up for you Dwagon, not worried any more ?!  >:D

 :o   Sorry... I drifted off there for a second. You were saying...?  >:D

Yeah, sure... I'm not worried, provided you heeded the much more important second part about the circulating fan. Well, that and as long as you make sure it all actually cycles on at least once like it's supposed to before you go to bed.  :-DD

mnem

(Jump ahead to 1:30 if you have ADD like me... and the cats.  ;))
alt-codes work here:  alt-0128 = €  alt-156 = £  alt-0216 = Ø  alt-225 = ß  alt-230 = µ  alt-234 = Ω  alt-236 = ∞  alt-248 = °
 

Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120182 on: May 19, 2022, 05:58:01 pm »
Fridge Timer Update


OK so picked a relay, plenty to choose from with a 12V coil.  Picked a big ass one to be sure it doesn't catch fire, and also because it's got a transparent case. I don't trust relays... I want to see inside to see condition of the contacts and if they operate properly. Also it's just cool to see the contacts  8)

...

Then added  a green LED across the coil to provide feedback, tell me when the fridge compressor is running.

Then I fired all that up and... worked first time !!!  :D



My bet is: When you use it to switch the actual compressor, EMI from the relay contacts will disturb you circuit, e.g. the counter skipping an amount of clock pulses, and the switching cycle might be faster or otherwise unexpected.

If you will have done everything right, it'll work and prove me wrong  >:D


EMI what ?! We shall see !  >:D

A miracle just happened : I DID find a mains socket, just one ! A luxurious one at that, for outdoor use. But well, a socket is a socket...

Better : I even found a b ig project box to put together the socket and the timer board ! I hate it. It's cheap crap and ugly, so no remorse using it for my quick and dirty purposes here !
I can't even find the cover/lid for it ! But that's OK I can do without it...

OK so I am in good shape !   

19H58 here, will  start working on the mechanicals while listening to the evening news in the background...

 

Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120183 on: May 19, 2022, 06:01:37 pm »
Sorry, I wasn't paying attention back when you were working on the timer... just to be sure: You need to make sure the compressor has off time of at least 5-10 minutes to allow the refrigerant to bleed back, or the compressor will be trying to start against a partial head of freon under pressure.

Should not run much more than 5-10 minutes at a time, unless trying to bring temp down a lot of degrees. Oh, and make sure you include the circulating fan in your plans, so it runs as well; if you don't, the fridge side will not get any cold air and the evap will frost shut in the freezer side.

mnem
 :-/O

Don't know what fridge Vince has, but none of the small fridge/freezers, we've owned over the years had a fan fitted AFAIK. Maybe the oversize large US style fridges in the shops have a fan, but I don't know, wouldn't want anything bigger as the running costs will just keep going up.  ;)

David
 
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Offline Vince

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120184 on: May 19, 2022, 06:02:26 pm »
...I hope that clears it up for you Dwagon, not worried any more ?!  >:D

 :o   Sorry... I drifted off there for a second. You were saying...?  >:D

Yeah, sure... I'm not worried, provided you heeded the much more important second part about the circulating fan. Well, that and as long as you make sure it all actually cycles on at least once like it's supposed to before you go to bed.  :-DD

mnem

(Jump ahead to 1:30 if you have ADD like me... and the cats.  ;))

Nope I didn't get your fan story, there is no fan in this fridge.  It can't make a difference between me cycling the power , or the thermostat cycling the comprfessor. It's 100% the same.

Don't complicate simple things   :)

 

Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120185 on: May 19, 2022, 06:14:50 pm »
Wow that HP 95LX MS-DOS computer looks cool  8) :-+

It is. It even has Lotus 123 in ROM, invoked via the blue 123 key.

The manual is ~4 times the volume of the computer, and much heavier!

The later 100LX was slightly improved. There was even the OmniGo 700lx where you could ram a Nokia 2110 mobile phone up its backside. I wonder why that didn't catch on? (Hint: Nokia did it right)


Wow, that thing's tiny.

As you can see, it is HP35-sized. The keyboard are good old HP calculator keys, and the keyboard is perfectly usable in two thumb mode.

As you can also see, it it dwarfed by the user guide.




Quote
Mobile phones have come a long way. However, my Fuba Porty sports a 9pin Sub-D rs232 port for true compatibility, just don't try carrying it very far...

The HP95LX has something that looks like an overgrown 4-pin USB socket; the cable had a D connector on the other end.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120186 on: May 19, 2022, 06:16:33 pm »
And also missing from Vince's lab: a simple, commercial day or week timer switch.  :-//

I have multiples of these, perhaps I should send him one, in the spirit of Entente Cordiale.

That's very nice of you !  ;D

I guess it would not be economical though !....

But what would I do with such a thing, in the lab ?  Use case example please ?!  ;D
When you are not needing it to control your fridge
- you could switch something on and off repeatedly
- you could limit the charging time for a battery/charger which you do not trust to do it by itself
- you could activate something at a predetermined time for recording or generating a signal.

The one I thought about initially is electromechanic. It has a circle of little tabs with one tab equating 15minutes.
See? pull every 4th one out and plug the fridge in.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 06:32:41 pm by Neomys Sapiens »
 
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Offline Specmaster

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120187 on: May 19, 2022, 06:16:44 pm »
...I hope that clears it up for you Dwagon, not worried any more ?!  >:D

 :o   Sorry... I drifted off there for a second. You were saying...?  >:D

Yeah, sure... I'm not worried, provided you heeded the much more important second part about the circulating fan. Well, that and as long as you make sure it all actually cycles on at least once like it's supposed to before you go to bed.  :-DD

mnem

(Jump ahead to 1:30 if you have ADD like me... and the cats.  ;))

Nope I didn't get your fan story, there is no fan in this fridge.  It can't make a difference between me cycling the power , or the thermostat cycling the comprfessor. It's 100% the same.

Don't complicate simple things   :)


Fridges and freezers with air circulating fans are usually of the frost free type and are from the upper price levels of appliances.
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 

Offline m k

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120188 on: May 19, 2022, 06:23:42 pm »
Something from the other side.
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Triplett-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 
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Offline factory

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120189 on: May 19, 2022, 06:25:59 pm »
And also missing from Vince's lab: a simple, commercial day or week timer switch.  :-//

I have multiples of these, perhaps I should send him one, in the spirit of Entente Cordiale.

That's very nice of you !  ;D

I guess it would not be economical though !....

But what would I do with such a thing, in the lab ?  Use case example please ?!  ;D
When you are not needing it to control your fridge
- you could switch something on and off repeatedly
- you could limit the charging time for a battery/charger which you do not trust to do it by itself
- you could activate something at a predetermined time for recording or generating a signal.

The one I thought about initially is electromechanic. It has a circle of little tabs with one tab equating 15minutes.
See? pull every 4th one out and plug the fridge in.

We repaired two & four switch versions of this Trafag thermostat at work, the newer ones with Omron switches seemed to fail quicker (welded contacts) and the RIFA madness paper cRaps were sometimes open circuit after only 5 years use.  >:D The adjustments were not not fun, each adjuster would slightly interact with the others.  |O The BR repair book listed all the temperature setting/types & some were even used for chillers.


Edit: found pictures of two stage version, not exactly the same as those we worked on & not fitted in a case.


David
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 06:37:13 pm by factory »
 

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120190 on: May 19, 2022, 06:52:44 pm »
Hey BD, there's a 427 with Option 01 (mains) and accessory kit available here. Won't be cheap, I guess. I can help with practical parts.

https://www.tradera.com/item/340198/542024892/hp-427a-voltmeter-opt1-komplett-med-hf-prob

Offline mansaxel

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120191 on: May 19, 2022, 06:57:16 pm »
The HP 35665A Dynamic Signal Analyzer is making some progress:


There's one, fully kitted out and in good condition available locally. Will be expensive. You writing up yours has me very tempted.  But I should focus on finding an Audio Precision System whatever instead.

Offline Saskia

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120192 on: May 19, 2022, 07:04:17 pm »
got a Korg A3 joyful noise generator from Catawiki. Hosed, dead battery. lost settings. Got 2 equipment cables, performed battery change, factory reload/reset, plugged it in the Ibanez GX30/ Fender Strat and heard a cat die.
 
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Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120193 on: May 19, 2022, 07:16:35 pm »
So, its test it thursday: Update from the "Fun with (Ice-)TEA" dept.

One of the key features of a precision power meter is phase alignment between voltage and current over a wide frequency range.
If you're measuring power at an phase angle near 0°, a small phase deviation between voltage and current will cause large errors in Q (reactive power).
The other way 'round, if you're measuring near 90°, the real power will be near zero while there might be quite large reactive power, and small phase errors will cause large errors in real power (P).

Every half-decent power meter does the real power calculation by multiplying u(t) by i(t) and integrating the result over a multiple of input period time. Calculation of Q might depend on the actual implementation or might not be available at all.

So for my tests, it was the natural choice to conduct the measurements at 90° phase between voltage and current over a large frequency range.

This is the first setup:



The dual channel AFG provides output signals at 90° phase. One channel is fed directly into the voltage path of the instruments. The other is routed through the high speed amplifier and a 50 Ohm load resistor into the current measurement paths. The dummy load resistor provides non-reactive response to a few MHz, it's not that good but good enough for this test.

DUT are the WT1600 and the Clarke-Hess model 2330 power meter.

This is the plot from 10Hz to 800kHz, read out real power of these instruments. Apparent power seen by the meters is about 1.27VA during the tests. Calculating errors is left to those playing along at home as an exercise to the reader, I've attached a text file with the raw values. You've got to look up these attachments at the other thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/yokogawa-wt1600-digital-power-meter/msg4184464/#msg4184464




Next one, the WT1600 vs. the Voltech PM3300:






Last, but not least: WT1600 vs. Tek A6302 plus AM503 and RTB2004 Math and Measurement features:





Note:
The NF 4005 amplifier has a specified frequency response to 1MHz, so one has to expect more or less relevant phase errors at frequencies above maybe 200kHz. So I don't know wether the -0.7W deviation at the end of the frequency axis (800kHz) is caused by the power meter or by the amplifier / dummy load.
At least all the power meters agree to some degree, so this points to the amplifier causing the phase shift, otherwise the Tek current probe and the scope should have enough bandwidth to not cause a significant error here. I haven't investigated why the phase shift at this combo is into the other direction (positive real power displayed instead of negative).

I've deskewed the current probe vs, the voltage channel, so I'd put some trust into the scope measurement, otherwise it's the only measurement that largely disagrees with the power meters ...
So no idea ATM which one is more correct.



Edit / P.S.: Now that I'm looking at the finished post, it's quite obvious I did the deskewing wrong, leading to a phase lead at the current probe / scope setup. So it's this last measurement that's lest trustworthy.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2022, 07:25:59 pm by capt bullshot »
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Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120194 on: May 19, 2022, 07:20:51 pm »
Hey BD, there's a 427 with Option 01 (mains) and accessory kit available here. Won't be cheap, I guess. I can help with practical parts.

https://www.tradera.com/item/340198/542024892/hp-427a-voltmeter-opt1-komplett-med-hf-prob

Ooh thanks for the heads up on that. Looks like a near perfect example and well looked after. Will keep an eye on it :)
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120195 on: May 19, 2022, 07:23:31 pm »
Well that was good. Think karma paid what it owes me now. Got a couple of things on the watch list. No integrated circuits in any of them. Hold my, err lack of beer  :popcorn:

Thali from this evening attached. Not bad for £9.50! Hand for size. Note I have huge hands  :-DD
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120196 on: May 19, 2022, 07:35:18 pm »
Well that was good. Think karma paid what it owes me now. Got a couple of things on the watch list. No integrated circuits in any of them. Hold my, err lack of beer  :popcorn:

Thali from this evening attached. Not bad for £9.50! Hand for size. Note I have huge hands  :-DD

Looks like a decent South Indian thali, i.e. veg, not much chilli, not much sugar, lots of flavour from tamarind, coconut, and spices.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Having fun doing more, with less
 

Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120197 on: May 19, 2022, 07:38:32 pm »
...I hope that clears it up for you Dwagon, not worried any more ?!  >:D

 :o   Sorry... I drifted off there for a second. You were saying...?  >:D

Yeah, sure... I'm not worried, provided you heeded the much more important second part about the circulating fan. Well, that and as long as you make sure it all actually cycles on at least once like it's supposed to before you go to bed.  :-DD

mnem

(Jump ahead to 1:30 if you have ADD like me... and the cats.  ;))

Nope I didn't get your fan story, there is no fan in this fridge.  It can't make a difference between me cycling the power , or the thermostat cycling the comprfessor. It's 100% the same.

Don't complicate simple things   :)


Fridges and freezers with air circulating fans are usually of the frost free type and are from the upper price levels of appliances.
If it has both a fridge and a freezer you can pretty much bet your bippy it has a circulating fan; they make the cold in the freezer side and bring a portion of it as cold air to the fridge side. Many are near-silent; at least until the bushings dry out and they start to screech.

Even the cheapest, bottom of the line fridges over here have both and a circulating fan. The only kind that doesn't are chest freezers and some upright freezers, and little "pregnant ice chest" sized dorm fridges, which cool the fridge by an exposed cold plate and convection. Even a lot of upright freezers have a fan; the one I have does.

That fan seizing up is literally one of the most common failure modes in consumer fridges, and when it stops running it can cause other failures as well. Lack of airflow through the evap will make the compressor run hot and draw too much current, and it can cause premature failure of the compressor start relay and/or overload thermistor/thermodisc.

Vince, give me a make and model and I'll look it up, just for the sake of you not eating spoiled meat. ;)

mnem
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Offline capt bullshot

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120198 on: May 19, 2022, 07:42:50 pm »

Even the cheapest, bottom of the line fridges over here have both and a circulating fan. The only kind that doesn't are chest freezers and some upright freezers, and little "pregnant ice chest" sized dorm fridges, which cool the fridge by an exposed cold plate and convection. Even a lot of upright freezers have a fan; the one I have does.


Please consider you're not living in Europe. Here (tm) only the "no-frost" type (high end) fridges and freezers have a circulating fan. So my bet clearly is: Vince' fridge doesn't have one.
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Offline mnementh

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Re: Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread
« Reply #120199 on: May 19, 2022, 07:57:29 pm »

Even the cheapest, bottom of the line fridges over here have both and a circulating fan. The only kind that doesn't are chest freezers and some upright freezers, and little "pregnant ice chest" sized dorm fridges, which cool the fridge by an exposed cold plate and convection. Even a lot of upright freezers have a fan; the one I have does.


Please consider you're not living in Europe. Here (tm) only the "no-frost" type (high end) fridges and freezers have a circulating fan. So my bet clearly is: Vince' fridge doesn't have one.


Okies... iff'n you say so. I'd rather be sure than wrong when it comes to spoiled food, though. ;) You have no idea how many fridges I stripped down and serviced that fan on at the Ding & Dent store... nor do I. Hundreds, easy.

mnem
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