Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Cubdriver]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Poor counters can’t get no love…. 


-Pat

I'm in the market for some counters 

5334B, 5316B and 5381A are on the list of acceptable counters.

If anyone guesses the "theme" of those counters, you win bugger all other than my respect

None of them have nixie displays so there's no worry that I'd be bidding against you?   

-Pat

[bd139]

5440 5B40 update:

U165 is toast.  The trigger signal arrives, in-spec, to it, and does not depart. There's no blown tant on its supply; it has just below 5V on the supply pin, and it's not noisy. It does also draw some power.

Parts list sez:

Code: [Select]

U165     155-0109-00    B010100  B021739    MICROCIRCUIT,LI:MONOLITHIC,TRIG       80009   155-0109-00
So, a quick Ebay glance gives that it is not Unobtanium; there are a couple sellers on the bay who want around 25 money for one, plus transatlantic shipping. Stiff prices, them.  Does anyone here sit on a few?

Look for the part in Tek wiki and then check eBay for plugins to sacrifice 

I will keep an eye out at Newbury. Lots of Tek stuff appears there usually.

[nixiefreqq]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

Poor counters can’t get no love…. 


-Pat

I'm in the market for some counters 

5334B, 5316B and 5381A are on the list of acceptable counters.

If anyone guesses the "theme" of those counters, you win bugger all other than my respect

None of them have nixie displays so there's no worry that I'd be bidding against you?   

-Pat

hmmmmm.

boring as shit 7 segment leds?

they do have another common flaw.

but you could send them to med and he could hack a fan on to the back for you.

edit   don't you already have a 5334b?  didn't you do a homebrew channel c mod?

[mnementh]

That suggestion... was pure unadulterated eeevil.

mnem
I tip my hat to you, sir. 

[srb1954]

I don't  understand the comparison between the two ? I mean they are just different things. 4000 series has a voltage range of 3 to 15V. 74HC / HCT if I believe the datasheet I just pulled, is 2 to 6V.
I understand your points, taken...but if I need to supply the logic for whatever reason above 6V, I am screwed with 74-anything.
Or if the circuit doesn't have stable supply voltage and the logic cheap needs to be able to operate with a changing supply voltage ?! 

It's probably cheaper now to just chuck a 78L05 in the circuit and be done. That will handle both problems for pocket change.

Not so good if you want ultra-low current consumption for running off batteries. The quiescent current of the 78L05 will drain your battery far faster than the quiescent current of the CMOS logic it is supplying.

There are lower quiescent current versions of the 78L05 but they are considerably more expensive than the jellybean 78L05.

[Saskia]

urgs fever still high. hubby started coughing. eff

@bd I could offer you a Keysight 3054t or a 2002 with MSO options, etc.
interested?

[cyclin_al]

Might be just us, but around here electricity is so cheap it would only make sense to install solar panels if you can't get connected to the grid.

It is just you. Most of us in most of the rest of the world don't have "hydro" as part of the local power company name.

I understand about the rest of the world but was wondering about USA. Probably depend of the state you live in. It's true that we are exporting a lot of electricity so it has to be more expensive over there.

Even within Canada, I suspect that 25_CPS pays double for electricity what Kosmic and I pay ...

[vk6zgo]

l

Naaahhh... you're not wrong. Characterizing noise is one of the areas that, IMO, a good analog scope still excels at and in many ways beats out a DSO. In this scenario, it does the averaging by dint of its inherent nature. You don't need the absolute detail that digitizing gives you; you just want to see where the fuzz is thickest and where it ends.

Amaze youngsters by using an analogue scope to quickly and easily measure the RMS value of wideband noise.

At amaze them with an HP 3400A which is even easier

Talking of which I need one of them to measure noise figure on something.

OK. Go on. Do that by the end of the week, rather than at some indefinite time in the future

Considering I don’t have any analogue oscilloscopes at the moment I shall defer until some indefinite time in the future

A clear demonstration of how unwise it is to dispose of anything.

Theres a compromise somewhere there.

Actually if I’m remembering how to do it properly it might be possible to do it with intensity grading or persistence on the Siglent. I will have to make a noise source and try it. After I’ve moved!

Do try it and let us know the result. Obviously a simple max/min/mean trace won't help. If you can determine the right colour or intensity, you might not need to use the second channel.

Indeed. Experimentation time.

I need a reference power measurement to compare it against. That might neatly line up with the Bird wattmeter thread 

As per my .sig, how about a noisy resistor, an audio amp, and a moderate quality multimeter. Plus the scope, of course.

Back in the day, we used to determine blanking level noise on video waveforms with a magic Tek device ( I think it was part of a Tek 148), which blanked out a portion of the DOT noise & inserted a known source of noise, calibrated in RMS volts.
When the DOT  noise was the same level as the inserted noise, the value of noise was the same as that of the inserted noise, read off a scale on the tester.

[mnementh]

huh. 

Only $4400...

https://www.3bscientific.com/us/experiment-training-oscilloscope-ii-115-v-5060-hz-8000671-ue3070850-115,p_1425_28447.html

mnem

[Cubdriver]

Interesting & slightly badly listed vintage DVM for those in the USA, cheap start price but could be expensive as it has a reserve. 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/295045755315



David

I took a crack at it, but the reserve was higher than my bid.  Oh well - I have too many projects already!

-Pat

[Cubdriver]

I talked to the guy I got the counters and meter from - learned that the NLS meter probably hadn't been powered up in 30 years or so, and he was happy to see that I am working on getting it going again.

Played a bit with the macro lens tonight:






-Pat

[mansaxel]

5440 5B40 update:

U165 is toast.  The trigger signal arrives, in-spec, to it, and does not depart. There's no blown tant on its supply; it has just below 5V on the supply pin, and it's not noisy. It does also draw some power.

Parts list sez:

Code: [Select]

U165     155-0109-00    B010100  B021739    MICROCIRCUIT,LI:MONOLITHIC,TRIG       80009   155-0109-00
So, a quick Ebay glance gives that it is not Unobtanium; there are a couple sellers on the bay who want around 25 money for one, plus transatlantic shipping. Stiff prices, them.  Does anyone here sit on a few?

Look for the part in Tek wiki and then check eBay for plugins to sacrifice 

I will keep an eye out at Newbury. Lots of Tek stuff appears there usually.

Thanks!

Shipping is a killer for most deals I can find on the bay. And some parts units are just that, "some parts", but not all:



Did find a trigger board with the right IC pair on though, and in Europe at that. Will hold for Newbury results to come in. 

These are modules that use the part:

5B25N
5B31
5B40, 5B42 (U300, U400), 5B44
7B50A, 7B53A
7B80, 7B85, 7B87, 7B81P, 7B90P
7612D
7S14 / 5S14N (U270)
SC502, SC503, SC504 (U3238)

[mansaxel]

A request to go against the spirit of the group:

At work, we've established that we need a Timing Interval Analyser. I tried buying the one Robert had for sale, but was too late. Does anyone else have a hp 5371A or one of the Yokogawa TA series, or similar, they'd be willing to part with?

It needs to be reasonably well working (another break with the spirit) and it can cost some money (again, against the very moral fibre!) but not "Korea instrument reseller insane".  An official-looking invoice is a cool thing.  In Europe is a definite bonus.

Ice-Tea?

[AVGresponding]

The point is that it is unwise to act on the presumption that future variants won't be a major problem.

Which is why I said "will tend to" rather than "will". There was no presumption, just a expression of likelihood based on knowing what tends to happen with viruses.

Plus we are all a couple of years older, and that translates to a 25% higher risk (I.e. doubles every 6 years)

You might be a couple of years older, but the collective we, the population, isn't.

But it (the population) is aging, if not quite at that rate.  https://www.worldometers.info/world-population/uk-population/#:~:text=The%20median%20age%20in%20the%20United%20Kingdom%20is%2040.5%20years.

[AVGresponding]

We're all fucked at some point. It's just about controlling how soon as best as possible.

Just found out how much Russia fucked my pension today. 3 years of contributions down the shitter. I've just shit canned all contributions to it in the short term and will spend it on beer, floozies, scopes and power supplies 

So the standard reply to:

Interviewer: Mr. Bloke how are you going to spend your lottery winings?
Mr. Bloke: Well, I'll spend most of it on booze and women, and the rest I'll just fritter away.

Isn't that a paraphrase of something George Best said?    https://twitter.com/football__tweet/status/1362009651080884228?lang=en-GB

[AVGresponding]

Starting to dig into and sort my IC's.

After only 2 minutes I am already pulling my hair out.

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

I thought things were simple, clear.. and now I have this hybrid of a chip 

So I ha d alook on Wikipedia to see the list of 74 chips....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits

I should not have looked, I should not have... really really not...

My old book on ICs lists like 75 chips for the 4000 series and about the same for TTL Chips..... but wikipedia says there are now HUNDREDS of chips !!!!! 

Says the 74 series "borrowed" (STOLE !) some chips from the 4000 CMOS family... and vice versa.

So how do I sort these hybrids ! I cut the chips in two halves with angle grinder and I put one halve in the 74 drawer and the other half in the 4000 series drawer ?!   

I HATE chip manufacturers !!!! 

I am starting to admire people who work in libraries, that try to organize and categorize books, and decide on what shelve they will put them on

Not to mention all the variations for each IC number in terms of F, ACT, S (do love me a pun, however I can shoehorn it in) etc, then there's the MIL spec ones, ceradips, hermetically sealed space qualified jobbies, the variety is almost endless!

[Robert763]

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

The 4000 series have one nice characteristic: operation at IIRC 3V to 15V

Back in the late 70s I used some to build a fllter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors, capable of measuring 1pW using  bog-standard LF351 op amps, and a dynamic range of 180dB (90dB optical).

And of course the 4046 PLL . 4000 series small scale logic is no moer dead than any other small scale logic that isn''t 3.3V or less.
It's just the dragon stirring.

[AVGresponding]

Starting to dig into and sort my IC's.

After only 2 minutes I am already pulling my hair out.

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

I thought things were simple, clear.. and now I have this hybrid of a chip 

So I ha d alook on Wikipedia to see the list of 74 chips....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_7400-series_integrated_circuits

I should not have looked, I should not have... really really not...

My old book on ICs lists like 75 chips for the 4000 series and about the same for TTL Chips..... but wikipedia says there are now HUNDREDS of chips !!!!! 

Says the 74 series "borrowed" (STOLE !) some chips from the 4000 CMOS family... and vice versa.

So how do I sort these hybrids ! I cut the chips in two halves with angle grinder and I put one halve in the 74 drawer and the other half in the 4000 series drawer ?!   

I HATE chip manufacturers !!!! 

I am starting to admire people who work in libraries, that try to organize and categorize books, and decide on what shelve they will put them on

Actually the thing here is really good. The old 4000 series were slow as hell, fragile and had incompatibilities with other logic families. Some genius came along and said "hey if we do HCT then they get faster chips that work with TTL and go in the same sockets and don't blow up or suffer from migration deaths quite as quickly" thus the 74HC4060 counter was born.

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

Wouldn't surprise me if it was the auto industry kept 4000 series alive; they were really common for a time in car control electronics, before overall integration of separate systems and microprocessor control meant that since there was a need for regulated sub-12V you may as well use the likes of HCT etc anyway.

[capt bullshot]

Got  chip marked 74HCT4060 

4060 is 4000 series CMOS of course... and 74HCT is.. well 74 series. Two different things. How can I see both merged into one single part number ! Is it a 4060 or a 74 chip ?!

That's an easy one:
4060 function and pinout in HC / HCT technology. So basically it runs off 5V only and faster than the original 4060

[Robert763]

I don't  understand the comparison between the two ? I mean they are just different things. 4000 series has a voltage range of 3 to 15V. 74HC / HCT if I believe the datasheet I just pulled, is 2 to 6V.
I understand your points, taken...but if I need to supply the logic for whatever reason above 6V, I am screwed with 74-anything.
Or if the circuit doesn't have stable supply voltage and the logic cheap needs to be able to operate with a changing supply voltage ?! 

It's probably cheaper now to just chuck a 78L05 in the circuit and be done. That will handle both problems for pocket change.

Yes again not saying 4000  is better, just saying it's different and it thus allows potentially to do stuff you can't do with a 74 (alone).
It's up to the designer and bean counters to decide if it makes more sense for a particular project to go one route or the other. But at least 4000 series gives you options, and options are always good... 

These days we have more options like lower threshold MOSFET gates so we don't need to use level convertors so much and in this realm is where 4000 were so beneficial.
Lots of fun playing with glue logic that most can't be bothered with these days and instead just use a micro which is fine if you think  you can program. 

FTFY

[AVGresponding]

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

The 4000 series have one nice characteristic: operation at IIRC 3V to 15V

Back in the late 70s I used some to build a fllter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors, capable of measuring 1pW using  bog-standard LF351 op amps, and a dynamic range of 180dB (90dB optical).

Yes and no. A lot of the characteristics were wide across the voltage range which was a big problem. A fine example I saw was a car alarm built around a couple of CD4001's. It only worked properly if the battery was above about 11.5 volts. So if you didn't use your car for a few weeks then it'd go off all by itself 

You are a bad mouth, you simply failed to appreciate the rich feature set of this alarm. It has an option to alarm you when your battery is running low, which is useful in itself !
Especially on modern cars I hear, where a low battery can upset lots of ECU all around the car and they fill the main ECU with thousands of nonsensical errors that don't even exist 

Frequently a self-created alarm, as the drain currents on some of these aftermarket systems were ludicrously high (into the tens of milliamps!).

[capt bullshot]

A request to go against the spirit of the group:

At work, we've established that we need a Timing Interval Analyser. I tried buying the one Robert had for sale, but was too late. Does anyone else have a hp 5371A or one of the Yokogawa TA series, or similar, they'd be willing to part with?

It needs to be reasonably well working (another break with the spirit) and it can cost some money (again, against the very moral fibre!) but not "Korea instrument reseller insane".  An official-looking invoice is a cool thing.  In Europe is a definite bonus.

Ice-Tea?

This guy:
https://messgeraete-markt.de/

A well known seller of TEA (at least for some of the German members of the TEA party), has some of the Yokogawa TA series (320, 520, 720) in his stock.
IMO, he can meet all your criteria.

He's also got an ebay shop, and his stock definitely is larger than what is shown at the website and ebay listings. So just contact him (Mr. Knopf) and ask what he's got for you.

[bsdphk]

I have a 5372A in good shape in Denmark which I almost never use any more.

Drop me an email, phk/freebsd.org

[nfmax]

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

The 4000 series have one nice characteristic: operation at IIRC 3V to 15V

Back in the late 70s I used some to build a fllter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors, capable of measuring 1pW using  bog-standard LF351 op amps, and a dynamic range of 180dB (90dB optical).

And of course the 4046 PLL . 4000 series small scale logic is no moer dead than any other small scale logic that isn''t 3.3V or less.
It's just the dragon stirring.

4000 series CMOS is very useful indeed! First, it's slow, so that it suffers far less from glitches, EMI & transient problems than modern logic families. Then it is very tolerant of wide supply voltage ranges, ideal for running off batteries. When not switching, it is extremely low power - basically nothing, which is also great for battery powered devices. Because of the high voltage tolerance and relatively large geometry, an ordinary 4000 series output can (usually - check the datasheet) source or sink enough current to supply other parts of the system. So they can be turned off when not needed to further save battery power.

Here's an example: a remote cesspit monitor. Every 2:13 it wakes up and transmits a radio message telling if the float switch in the tank is indicating high level or not. Runs off 4 AA batteries, which should last about 7 years according to my calculations.

A special bonus point to the first person to correctly describe what purpose D1 serves

[bd139]

Personally the old CMOS 4000 series are DEAD other than the CD4007 which is still quite useful as it's basically uncommitted MOSFET inverter which can be snuck into various analogue circuits.

The 4000 series have one nice characteristic: operation at IIRC 3V to 15V

Back in the late 70s I used some to build a fllter with a Q of 4000 using 10% capacitors, capable of measuring 1pW using  bog-standard LF351 op amps, and a dynamic range of 180dB (90dB optical).

And of course the 4046 PLL . 4000 series small scale logic is no moer dead than any other small scale logic that isn''t 3.3V or less.
It's just the dragon stirring.

It’s definitely dead. Noise immunity is terrible at lower voltage and as of a number of years ago I understand there’s only one fab still running the 10um process which means that they aren’t going to produce them in huge numbers. Building a new product on them is risky. It was on the no stock list at a company I worked for 20 years ago with a forced transition to HC.

There’s an HC4046 PLL and even that’s dying. Nexperia kicked out a HCT9046 which was vastly superior to both. And then there’s the LV4046A which has an extra phase comparator to play with and will quite happily run to 30MHz or so!

Absolutely fine for the odd thing here and there within the known constraints of course.