Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[Robert763]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

Note I’m so high tech I had to go round someone’s house the other day and borrow their PC to put a CD-ROM contents on a USB stick. I don’t even have a CD drive now.

In fact I didn’t even use floppy disks back in the 90s. Had moved to Zip disks and CDRs.

Floppies are absolutely marvelous, I much prefer them to punch cards, sorry 

It's really difficult to write a shopping list or a quick schematic on the back of a floppy disk. 

Just use a sharpie 

[Vince]

Good morning TEA !!!

Overcast and rainy here, just woke up.

Let's see what's been going on while I was sleeping...

Oh, networks again  ! 

Networks will never exterminate removable media, doesn't make sense, two different things for different use cases and people. You IT nerds need to realize most people aren't like you and never will. Most people are IT illiterate, including me to a big extent, because I don't give a fuck about computers any more and networks are way too complex and a chore to set up and maintain and fix. I can't do it, never mind my mum or the average Joe in the street. If anything, removable media is the only thing that is simple (and cheap enough) enough to use yet gets the job done, for the vast majority. No need to be an IT nerd to use it, just shove your USB stick into any USB port and drag and drop your files. Most (still, not all) people can do it.
As for the internet, it's just a joke, we are in 2022 and even in western country like France there are still millions of people that still don't have a working ADSL link, their internet is unusable. Telling these people they need to rely on that to move data around is just such a laugh it's hard to find words to express it. Yes, all these people have been promised high speed internet in every single house for.. 20 years now. So they know it will never happen, because IT operators just don't give a fuck a bout them. Fiber in big city centers, and dial-up for rural areas. Don't like it ? Well sucks to be you !
I would rather slit my wrists right now than having to rely on networks and be deprived of removable media.

Saying networks will kill every removable media on the planet is like saying ari liners will make all cars disappear or that paper and pencil will disappear because tablets are so much cooler, or that fridges will all be connected to the internet.. I heard that 20 years ago, still waiting for that (not really, don't want that crap).

In 20 years from now there will still be USB sticks for sale, or whatever removable media replacing it, and your average joe still won't be an IT nerd that understand and can design and configure and maintain and fix it's own networks at home, not even close. People don't even back up their data, they leave all the baby pictures in their freaking smartphone, that they throw in the ocean at the beach, or in the toilet, or drop on the ground... and you expect them to study networks and build one for themselves at home ? Yeah right... 


Have a good day all ! 

[m k]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

Note I’m so high tech I had to go round someone’s house the other day and borrow their PC to put a CD-ROM contents on a USB stick. I don’t even have a CD drive now.

In fact I didn’t even use floppy disks back in the 90s. Had moved to Zip disks and CDRs.

Floppies are absolutely marvelous, I much prefer them to punch cards, sorry 

It's really difficult to write a shopping list or a quick schematic on the back of a floppy disk. 

Just use a sharpie 

Rotring 0.25

[m k]

No, I still maintain floppies are much better.

That is because you are not comparing them to the state of the art. What people should do is to have their files on a networked drive.  Compared to a networked file system the floppy drive and its media are slow, unreliable, insecure, and have puny capacity.

(of course, if you don't mind Someone Else reading that file (and I'm not talking about GENERAL ERROR  ) you can outsource that part. Flipping the RO tab on a 3,5" diskette will take longer time than copying a 1,4MiB file over most networks built the last 20 years, so speed is not an issue. )

And yes, I'm jumping around with first comparing to punch cards, then networked file systems. Point is, that floppy drives and media are an all-time low in medium reliability, only underbid by the practice of storing files to compact cassettes as was popular on several home computers.

Well we don't all have our own servers, FTP site or whatever so when we want to transfer a small file it's either a 3rd party site or email which is not as secure as handing over physical media. With Microsoft trying to kill off CD's & DVDs if I want to transfer more than a few tens of megabytes e.g provide a manual with a bit of TE, it means buying several Gb of USB stick.  And unless they are "branded" they are no more reliable than a quality CDR.
Maybe I'm just a luddite, but I don't like the idea of relying on my data (and if MS have their way software) being on someone elses hardware.

Get a crossover rj45 cable and learn to share a directory.
I use the name "transfer" and it's the same everywhere, and read only from outside.
Username is always the same but password changes and is regularly forgotten, but since both ends are available all the time it doesn't really matter.
I also seem to be flipping since one XP machine is writable, not much of a difference though.

So the principle of procedure is fetch.
The local machine put stuff available and others can read but not write.

[TERRA Operative]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

Note I’m so high tech I had to go round someone’s house the other day and borrow their PC to put a CD-ROM contents on a USB stick. I don’t even have a CD drive now.

In fact I didn’t even use floppy disks back in the 90s. Had moved to Zip disks and CDRs.

How'd that Zip click-of-death go for you?

(I had a parallel Zip drive back in the day, I liked it. I should get one again as it's compatible with the D-series TDS 600 and 700 series scopes )

[m k]

I thought you won one of the 180 series SA mainframes, in the last PP auction, it should work in the SA mainframe, just some of the later ones haven't got the scope cal outputs, as they were made long after the scope modules became obsolete.
I'm I the only one on here with some 180 scopes in my collection?

David

I have a 181 here.


Lab Cat looking none too pleased with the poor probe compensation:


-Pat

"Ok, I'm ready"

- after too long

"Really funny, Pat"

[m k]

More 465B shenanigans. So I figured I'd just do a short check on the IC and see if it was pin specific. Well it was.  Only the A3 line pin 4 was short to ground which is the CH1 select line.

(snip)

74S287A looks to have the same pinout, and I see a datasheet claiming 30ns. Maybe also look at N82S129 and AM27S21.

I don't see any of those in my parts pile, and with postage from the US you are probably still better off finding one in the UK. But, if you can't, I will take another look. If did find one I could program it here too.

Thanks for suggestions. Look at those and they are a good match. But again as always I don't have the programming capability available and that will cost more money and time than just buying the part.

Just in case of emergency.
The thing is that they don't really need a programmer since they are field programmable.
Somebody here also have recent experience with titanium-tungsten PROMs, Specmaster came in mind.

If memory serves you put address on, short selected bit to down, rise Vcc to >10V and tap chip enable, and it will burn the selected titanium-tungsten fuse and bit will become high.
Then just repeat few times.

[bd139]

Good morning TEA !!!

Overcast and rainy here, just woke up.

Let's see what's been going on while I was sleeping...

Oh, networks again  ! 

Networks will never exterminate removable media, doesn't make sense, two different things for different use cases and people. You IT nerds need to realize most people aren't like you and never will. Most people are IT illiterate, including me to a big extent, because I don't give a fuck about computers any more and networks are way too complex and a chore to set up and maintain and fix. I can't do it, never mind my mum or the average Joe in the street. If anything, removable media is the only thing that is simple (and cheap enough) enough to use yet gets the job done, for the vast majority. No need to be an IT nerd to use it, just shove your USB stick into any USB port and drag and drop your files. Most (still, not all) people can do it.
As for the internet, it's just a joke, we are in 2022 and even in western country like France there are still millions of people that still don't have a working ADSL link, their internet is unusable. Telling these people they need to rely on that to move data around is just such a laugh it's hard to find words to express it. Yes, all these people have been promised high speed internet in every single house for.. 20 years now. So they know it will never happen, because IT operators just don't give a fuck a bout them. Fiber in big city centers, and dial-up for rural areas. Don't like it ? Well sucks to be you !
I would rather slit my wrists right now than having to rely on networks and be deprived of removable media.

Saying networks will kill every removable media on the planet is like saying ari liners will make all cars disappear or that paper and pencil will disappear because tablets are so much cooler, or that fridges will all be connected to the internet.. I heard that 20 years ago, still waiting for that (not really, don't want that crap).

In 20 years from now there will still be USB sticks for sale, or whatever removable media replacing it, and your average joe still won't be an IT nerd that understand and can design and configure and maintain and fix it's own networks at home, not even close. People don't even back up their data, they leave all the baby pictures in their freaking smartphone, that they throw in the ocean at the beach, or in the toilet, or drop on the ground... and you expect them to study networks and build one for themselves at home ? Yeah right... 


Have a good day all ! 

I have to agree with you.

All it takes is one fucker with a hedge trimmer to ruin your day. Doesn't matter where you live.

[Vince]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

Note I’m so high tech I had to go round someone’s house the other day and borrow their PC to put a CD-ROM contents on a USB stick. I don’t even have a CD drive now.

In fact I didn’t even use floppy disks back in the 90s. Had moved to Zip disks and CDRs.

How'd that Zip click-of-death go for you?

(I had a parallel Zip drive back in the day, I liked it. I should get one again as it's compatible with the D-series TDS 600 and 700 series scopes )

Uh really ?! Wow...so you mean the // port can be used not only to print a screen capture, but also to access storage media like a ZIP ?! 
Did I read that right ?! 
So if I can't find a HDD option for my future 784D, no big deal then, I can use a ZIP Drive instead ?! 

Definitely want a 'D' then, none of that 784C rubbish !     

Money for the TDS won't be before a long while though, so I better start searching for  ZIP drive ASAP, as they must be getting rare by now, and might not even be findable any more by the time I get the TDS ! 

Yeah, let's find a ZIP Drive again, will bring back memories !! 

Thank you so much for the info Terra ! All the crap we have been writing on TEA for the past 24 hours FINALLY turned out to lead to something actually useful ! 

You really made my day Terra, thanks for the info, I am very surprised but overjoyed by it !! 

A HDD would still be good though, as you said it contains not just data but also S/W that give you access to more features... and I doubt that S/W can be accessed/used by the scope if you put it on the // ZIP drive ? Probably not...

[bd139]

More 465B shenanigans. So I figured I'd just do a short check on the IC and see if it was pin specific. Well it was.  Only the A3 line pin 4 was short to ground which is the CH1 select line.

(snip)

74S287A looks to have the same pinout, and I see a datasheet claiming 30ns. Maybe also look at N82S129 and AM27S21.

I don't see any of those in my parts pile, and with postage from the US you are probably still better off finding one in the UK. But, if you can't, I will take another look. If did find one I could program it here too.

Thanks for suggestions. Look at those and they are a good match. But again as always I don't have the programming capability available and that will cost more money and time than just buying the part.

Just in case of emergency.
The thing is that they don't really need a programmer since they are field programmable.
Somebody here also have recent experience with titanium-tungsten PROMs, Specmaster came in mind.

If memory serves you put address on, short selected bit to down, rise Vcc to >10V and tap chip enable, and it will burn the selected titanium-tungsten fuse and bit will become high.
Then just repeat few times.

Yeah aware of that. Unfortunately I can't be arsed to sit there and toggle in and possibly screw up the thing so I'm going to buy the problem away.

[Specmaster]

In The Box: one NA 120V Power Cable, one +2 Spiked Mace, one +3 Spiked flail, and two PP510 100MHz probes.




Back of unit: Hmmm... Cal sticker.




Obligatory Cal Signal pic. I hope I can choose larger fonts for some of these measurements. Large fan is barely noticeable, but I assume it is thermally controlled. The screen is effing huge and scary Hi-Res; feels the same as going to my 1054Zed after using a TDS210 for years.

mnem
 

Well that was a short lay down 

[tggzzz]

Bought some junk.
Why? Well I went through the service manual and it is absolutely packed to the brim with rather expensive analogue and TTL bits and a metric ton of standard HP parts. Absolutely no use whatsoever in this day and age as it's all for testing Bell/CCITT 4KHz channel telecoms crap which is completely obsolete so it'll be used as an organ supply for other projects.

Sounds like I might need to take care to distinguish you from Vince.

In the late 70s, the GPO (pre BT) had to work how they could guarantee sending 2Mb/s between exchanges along cables specified at audio frequencies. They could have asked the cable manufacturers, but that would have given them the excuse to drastically increase the price of the same product.

It was of course the wrong question, since the answer didn't include the newfangled optical fibres.

Yep. That’s pretty much how ADSL works now. Channelised. Amazing how we can cram 80Mbits up some mouldy copper crud.

Yes and no.

The signalling was alternate mark inversion, so voltages were +V, 0, -V and bit rate=baud rate, i.e. Mb/s. There were many twisted pairs in the cable, so crosstalk was the major issue which could only be determined by measuring [pairs in each cable, not by prediction.

ADSL and even 57kb/s modems use multi-level signalling to minimise the baud rate. Such processing power was decades in the future.

[TERRA Operative]

(I had a parallel Zip drive back in the day, I liked it. I should get one again as it's compatible with the D-series TDS 600 and 700 series scopes )

Uh really ?! Wow...so you mean the // port can be used not only to print a screen capture, but also to access storage media like a ZIP ?! 
Did I read that right ?! 
So if I can't find a HDD option for my future 784D, no big deal then, I can use a ZIP Drive instead ?! 

Definitely want a 'D' then, none of the 784C rubbish !     

Money for the TDS won't be before a long while though, so I better start searching for  ZIP drive ASAP, as they must be getting rare by now, and might not even be findable any more by the time I get the TDS ! 

Yeah, let's find a ZIP Drive again, will bring back memories !! 

Thank you so much for the info Terra ! All the crap we have been writing on TEA for the past 24 hours FINALLY turned out to lead to something actually useful ! 

You really made my day Terra, thanks for the info, I am very surprised but overjoyed by it !! 

Yup, I learnt it when researching what the hell the TDS714L was when I bought it, it's sales brochure made note of the Zip drive compatibility.
Turned out that the D-series scopes do too.
Check this link, page 7 under the 'Storage' section.
https://w140.com/tekwiki/images/9/90/TDS700D_Datasheet_55W_11336_4.pdf

I assume it's plug and play, maybe detects it on boot, or maybe you can select it when you access the file menu as you would a floppy disk.


I'll have to go find a Zip drive on Yahoo Auctions to add to my TDS Scope Accessory collection.

A HDD would still be goo though, as you said it contains not just data but also S/W that give you access to more features... and I doubt that S/W can be accessed/used by the scope if you put it on the // ZIP drive ? Probably not...

I don't think it would work to use a Zip drive as a HDD like that, I think the Zip is only able to be used just like a floppy but larger capacity.
If you want a HDD for your unit (and some software pre-loaded), I do have a spare HDD option, complete with all parts....

I plan to sell it 'one day' so you have basically forever to get around to buying it off me because 'some day' means I'll never get around to it....

[tggzzz]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

And the available alternatives were 10MB hard disks the size of washing machines, or paper (tape or cards), or audio cassettes (remember CUTS at 300/1200 baud?).

Floppies were a significant advance, for those that could afford them.

Yes I remember loading tapes in via my BBC micro cassette interface. When I finally got a single 5 1/4” drive things were good. But that realistically lasted 4 years because i got a 20Mb hard disk. Every floppy interaction after that was a chore.

Indeed.

My university project was stored on paper tape which I carried around. There was insufficient space on the 10MB hard drive for undergrad projects.

Reading the paper tape at 1000cps was something I won't forget; health and safety would have a fit about the possibility of papercut injuries. Respooling the tape was more tedious.

[Vince]

I thought you won one of the 180 series SA mainframes, in the last PP auction, it should work in the SA mainframe, just some of the later ones haven't got the scope cal outputs, as they were made long after the scope modules became obsolete.
I'm I the only one on here with some 180 scopes in my collection?

David

I have a 181 here.


Lab Cat looking none too pleased with the poor probe compensation:


-Pat

Cat is clearly the star of the show, for it's him being in focus, the scope's screen is completely out of focus ! 

I would like a lab cat like your, he looks cool and smart, being interested in TE and electronics.
Unfortunately you can't recruit cats on their engineering skills, you just get what you get. I don't want to try then fire 25 cats until I find the right one, so I just don't have one.
But lucky you for having this one, you scored big time ! 

[m k]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

And the available alternatives were 10MB hard disks the size of washing machines, or paper (tape or cards), or audio cassettes (remember CUTS at 300/1200 baud?).

Floppies were a significant advance, for those that could afford them.

Yes I remember loading tapes in via my BBC micro cassette interface. When I finally got a single 5 1/4” drive things were good. But that realistically lasted 4 years because i got a 20Mb hard disk. Every floppy interaction after that was a chore.

I've forgotten what happened to my VIC-20 but I remember that uA741 couldn't be an auto fire.
(Silkworm)

If I would need floppies semi regularly I'd make a FDD emulator with Ethernet connection and HTML server.

Last time I needed CD/DVD it was office side but was only available production side so I had to share a drive.
Production side has many drives but hardly any other would actually work, it's actually not very clean area.
Luckily also that working one was one of the connected ones.

[tautech]

All it takes is one fucker with a hedge trimmer to ruin your day. Doesn't matter where you live.

Not with a 250MB/s P-P wireless connection and your ISP's UPS in the house keeping your connection up ! 

The Pop part of Mom& Pop was here today for a coffee and checked our connection speed ....as just reported and also dropped off a new 3 blade 24V wind gen to go up the hill on our backhaul site as this winter the PV panels have struggled to keep the batteries full which has pissed us off some needing to keep an eye on the bloody things every time we have a session of dull weather......then a few days back it became obvious why, apparently at high altitudes the southern hemisphere still has a lot of fine ash aloft from the big Tonga eruption a few months back.

Anyways, one of these suckers:
http://www.primuswindpower.com/wind-power-products/air-30-turbine-2/
Wonder how long it will last 200m ABSL where there are unrestricted views between Aussie and Chile....translation = blows like a real SOB !
Pics to follow when installed.

[tggzzz]

The grandboy was here the other day and smart little poo he is too but no idea about things rural ....scared of mud, cow poo and dogs FFS but wanted to know about floppies FFS .....what on earth is his mutha teaching him ?

I presume he wanted to know why people made something that looks like the "save file" icon.

[Specmaster]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

Note I’m so high tech I had to go round someone’s house the other day and borrow their PC to put a CD-ROM contents on a USB stick. I don’t even have a CD drive now.

In fact I didn’t even use floppy disks back in the 90s. Had moved to Zip disks and CDRs.

Floppies are absolutely marvelous, I much prefer them to punch cards, sorry 

It's really difficult to write a shopping list or a quick schematic on the back of a floppy disk. 

Just use a sharpie 

Rotring 0.25

I haven't used one of those in years 

[tggzzz]

I shudder to think how long it would take to reorganise 1.4MB worth of punch cards if you dropped them.

Or add a character in the middle of a 1.4MB punch tape. (Deleting a character is trivial, once you've found it)

Or read the data without having any machine available (much more problematic with 5 channel paper tape).

BTW, dropped card decks were the reason people marked the edges of the stacks with a big X.

[Ice-Tea]

    Free. Just pay for shipping.

So... is this a BUSTED scenario, or YAGI gone wrong? Or are you trying to mitigate JENGA reaching critical mass by applying a little BAIT THEORY to the TEA thread...? 

mnem

I... I don't even undertand half of what you just said but it's pretty simply. I don't have the gear to test these, they don't seem to be worth all that much, I can't be arsed to put them on eBay so I figured one of you lot might want to have them for free 

Oh dear, dear, Iced-TEA... as long as you've been among us, you still haven't availed yourself of the TEA GLOSSARY on page 1...?

For shame!!! 

BUSTED: Bought Unnecessary Shitload of Test Equipment Devices

YAGI: Yet Another Gain for Inventory - A term used to rationalise the typical consequences of GAS - especially when there is no immediate or prospective need for an item.

JENGA: (a constellation of related disorders)

(1) Junk Engulfing Nearby Garage Areas - wherein all garage space is subject to a constantly moving and contested scrimmage line;
(2) Junk Encroaching Nonpermissible General Areas - usually defined by other household members and their "need" to use nonessential spaces like living rooms, kitchens and bathrooms;
(3) Junk Engulfing Nonvertical Geometric Areas - the inevitable spontaneous accumulation of all manner of tools and junk on any available table-like horizontal surface;
(4) Junk Emigrating Non-Garage Areas - the inexplicable migration of entire stacks to other rooms, often discovered by other household members with a hand truck still underneath;
(5) Junk Engulfing Nonhorizontal Growth Areas - the accumulation of box-shaped objects stacked from floor to ceiling, and the inevitable need to remove one object from the middle of the stack without all of it falling down on your head.

Bait Theory: The bait theory of equipment acquisition states that if you want something but can't find it, start collecting all of the parts, documents, etc., that you will need to repair and/or operate it. Somewhere out there, there is a broken device that "knows" that you have the parts to fix it and it will find its way to you.

Thanks for frequenting this space, and of course I'm sure someone will liberate those bits from you.

mnem
*toddles off to straighten out some garage*

AaaaahhhAAhhh! That makes more sense. To address a few points: it's a bussiness. Obviously all purchases are well thought out. Honnest. And since moving to a new office I kinda have enough space but I want to keep it like that. So I'm trying to keep the "Bait Theory" at bay a bit.

I thought you won one of the 180 series SA mainframes, in the last PP auction, it should work in the SA mainframe, just some of the later ones haven't got the scope cal outputs, as they were made long after the scope modules became obsolete.
I'm I the only one on here with some 180 scopes in my collection?

David

Errhh, not that I know of? 

Also, did I mention the FREE part?

[tggzzz]

Yeah quite frankly fuck floppy disks. They were shit when they came out. Corruption, speed problems, reliability problems, tiny storage. Add 30 years to the problem and now you have mechanical and magnetic degradation to contend with.

Note I’m so high tech I had to go round someone’s house the other day and borrow their PC to put a CD-ROM contents on a USB stick. I don’t even have a CD drive now.

In fact I didn’t even use floppy disks back in the 90s. Had moved to Zip disks and CDRs.

Floppies are absolutely marvelous, I much prefer them to punch cards, sorry 

It's really difficult to write a shopping list or a quick schematic on the back of a floppy disk. 

Don't be silly. The label on a 3.5" floppy is big enough for that

EDIT: I see mansaxel beat me to it.

[bd139]

All it takes is one fucker with a hedge trimmer to ruin your day. Doesn't matter where you live.

Not with a 250MB/s P-P wireless connection and your ISP's UPS in the house keeping your connection up ! 

The Pop part of Mom& Pop was here today for a coffee and checked our connection speed ....as just reported and also dropped off a new 3 blade 24V wind gen to go up the hill on our backhaul site as this winter the PV panels have struggled to keep the batteries full which has pissed us off some needing to keep an eye on the bloody things every time we have a session of dull weather......then a few days back it became obvious why, apparently at high altitudes the southern hemisphere still has a lot of fine ash aloft from the big Tonga eruption a few months back.

Anyways, one of these suckers:
http://www.primuswindpower.com/wind-power-products/air-30-turbine-2/
Wonder how long it will last 200m ABSL where there are unrestricted views between Aussie and Chile....translation = blows like a real SOB !
Pics to follow when installed.

In that case, all it takes is a stray cow to scratch it's ass on the pole 

[tautech]

The grandboy was here the other day and smart little poo he is too but no idea about things rural ....scared of mud, cow poo and dogs FFS but wanted to know about floppies FFS .....what on earth is his mutha teaching him ?

I presume he wanted to know why people made something that looks like the "save file" icon.

Not sure what drove it and only heard the Mutha say to ask poppa if he had one....it probably stemmed from a discussion with his Farta the day before at home. He's a real smart little fart and although we don't get to see us much, now at just about 4 he's starting to really come outta his skin.
There's every likelihood he'll be an airline captain just like both his parents.

[Cubdriver]

Cat is clearly the star of the show, for it's him being in focus, the scope's screen is completely out of focus ! 

I would like a lab cat like your, he looks cool and smart, being interested in TE and electronics.
Unfortunately you can't recruit cats on their engineering skills, you just get what you get. I don't want to try then fire 25 cats until I find the right one, so I just don't have one.
But lucky you for having this one, you scored big time ! 

Gilmore is quite the character.  He’s one of seven that currently reside here.

(Shame he wasn’t doing this when things were turned on…)

-Pat