Test Equipment Anonymous (TEA) group therapy thread

[mnementh]

Condolences then. I'd rather drill screws through my feet than ever use that fustercluck again. Only app I ever found less intuitive than EagleCAD. 

mnem
*cringe*

Ah, so you've never used FreeCAD then? 

I can't see, why the hate on FreeCAD? I use it regularly for over 4 years, so somewhat biased 
Every CAD tool has it's hooks and it has to fit towards the way you think. Naturally, not everyone can work with every tool, people don't think the same way - and if the tool is structured contrary to your internal workflow, you'll never get along. You'll have to use a different tool, better suited to the way you think, to get good results and not hurt yourself continually. People try to get started in Freecad (or any tool really) for a month and not get anywhere, fall into that category. Of course the other thing are people coming from different tools, that expect things to work in a specific way.
But I've seen and helped people getting started in Kicad and Freecad around me, and would not say getting started in one is much harder than the other. Like FreeCAD, there are people hating on Kicad because "all the buttons are in the wrong places" - IMHO, for the same reason, see above.
Yes, FreeCAD allows you to do things in different ways, and some of them will shoot you in the foot later. Sometimes there is only one good way. Part of the learning curve is to learn to design around that. Yes, it would be better for that not to be the case, but I need it today. IMHO it's still the best bet for a free CAD tool with a wide feature set. It get's the job done and for a free CAM tool there is no alternative AFAIK. At least none that's easier to use, or even on par feature-wise. That said, to construct a mechanism or whole machine / device, I would not want to do it in FreeCAD. But for the odd 3d printed or 2.5d milled part? More than good enough!

From my perspective it's just the clunk factor. It's ok but it needs a lot of polish.

Most of the open source software out there hasn't had "the 2nd 90%" of the development effort expended.

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

This was 100% my experience with EagleCAD; and everything I've read, heard or made up about FreeCAD says it is worse.

mnem
I don't need my testicles ground into a fine paste by software that constantly    ; I'm just fine with them being a little lumpy.

[ch_scr]

Condolences then. I'd rather drill screws through my feet than ever use that fustercluck again. Only app I ever found less intuitive than EagleCAD. 

mnem
*cringe*

Ah, so you've never used FreeCAD then? 

I can't see, why the hate on FreeCAD? I use it regularly for over 4 years, so somewhat biased 
Every CAD tool has it's hooks and it has to fit towards the way you think. Naturally, not everyone can work with every tool, people don't think the same way - and if the tool is structured contrary to your internal workflow, you'll never get along. You'll have to use a different tool, better suited to the way you think, to get good results and not hurt yourself continually. People try to get started in Freecad (or any tool really) for a month and not get anywhere, fall into that category. Of course the other thing are people coming from different tools, that expect things to work in a specific way.
But I've seen and helped people getting started in Kicad and Freecad around me, and would not say getting started in one is much harder than the other. Like FreeCAD, there are people hating on Kicad because "all the buttons are in the wrong places" - IMHO, for the same reason, see above.
Yes, FreeCAD allows you to do things in different ways, and some of them will shoot you in the foot later. Sometimes there is only one good way. Part of the learning curve is to learn to design around that. Yes, it would be better for that not to be the case, but I need it today. IMHO it's still the best bet for a free CAD tool with a wide feature set. It get's the job done and for a free CAM tool there is no alternative AFAIK. At least none that's easier to use, or even on par feature-wise. That said, to construct a mechanism or whole machine / device, I would not want to do it in FreeCAD. But for the odd 3d printed or 2.5d milled part? More than good enough!

From my perspective it's just the clunk factor. It's ok but it needs a lot of polish.

Most of the open source software out there hasn't had "the 2nd 90%" of the development effort expended.

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

This was 100% my experience with EagleCAD; and everything I've read, heard or made up about FreeCAD says it is worse.

mnem
I don't need my testicles ground into a fine paste by software that constantly    ; I'm just fine with them being a little lumpy.

I tried to use Eagle once (but had been touched by Kicad's grace before) and could not get anything done. Turned and fled. I've literally rather gotten an F in that course than to touch that SW again. I'll happily agree on the part that it's counterintuitive for me.
But with FreeCAD, it really wasn't too bad, even back then? Even in the beginning, it wasn't the UI that was holding me back, more the lack of 3d modelling experience and Freecad's "it won't fit that way" bugs.
Edit: I think what parts a good from a bad UI (or an intuitive from an non-/counter-intuitive one): if you have not used it for a while, you can get back into it easily. No consulting the manual, scratching your head for a while, etc.

[AVGresponding]

Currently, sitting here waiting for the workmen to arrive. We are having the bathroom refitted and were told that they would be with us this morning at 8.00AM, now 8.54AM and still sign of them. The job is supposed to take upto 2 weeks, thinking of taking friendly bets on the completion date 

Before placing any bets: Are the builders (1) Native English, or (2) Polish?

If they are English then it'll take 4 weeks due to the lateness, slacking and tea breaks.

There are shit workers in every field; one just decided to resign earlier today on national TV, for example.



Here at Northern Shithole Council, projects finish late for several reasons, here are a few of the most common, not necessarily in order of impact or timeline:

1. The design keeps changing

2. The client keeps adding more things on

3. The design is wrong (doesn't match the building, not conforming to codes, not conforming to the known laws of physics, etc)

4. There is no design/are no drawings

5. The gear is not ordered early enough  (ie light fittings with a 4-6 week lead time are ordered 1 week before the end of the job)

6. Sub-contractors are not booked early enough (ie they aren't available when you want them because they are already booked up)

7. Sub-contractors do substandard work which then has to be remediated (ie they decide that using metal trunking as per spec is unnecessary and use all-round-band instead)

8. The order of works is incorrect (ie the painters are sent in before all the first fixing is done, then again before all the second fixing is done, then again after that...)

9. The labour dispositions are badly managed (either too few or too many people on site)

10. Asbestos surveys are incomplete/inaccurate/absent

11. The specification is wrong/non-existent

12. Access equipment is inappropriate/unavailable


I can tell you now, that despite Council workers reputation for laziness, 9 times out of 10 when you see them standing around drinking tea or otherwise apparently doing nothing it is because of one of the aforementioned reasons, or they are discussing how to proceed. That 1 time in 10, yes, they are tossing it off, but in my experience it's less often than any office worker ever does.

Likewise remediation of apprentice/useless bastard fuckups doesn't often take long, as it usually gets spotted early enough.

[Neper]

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

Reminds me of the software that processed photos and then saved them as Photo 0, 1, 2, 3...

Do programmers' wives also have their firstborne as the 0th child?

[med6753]

Currently, sitting here waiting for the workmen to arrive. We are having the bathroom refitted and were told that they would be with us this morning at 8.00AM, now 8.54AM and still sign of them. The job is supposed to take upto 2 weeks, thinking of taking friendly bets on the completion date 

Before placing any bets: Are the builders (1) Native English, or (2) Polish?

If they are English then it'll take 4 weeks due to the lateness, slacking and tea breaks.

There are shit workers in every field; one just decided to resign earlier today on national TV, for example.



Here at Northern Shithole Council, projects finish late for several reasons, here are a few of the most common, not necessarily in order of impact or timeline:

1. The design keeps changing

2. The client keeps adding more things on

3. The design is wrong (doesn't match the building, not conforming to codes, not conforming to the known laws of physics, etc)

4. There is no design/are no drawings

5. The gear is not ordered early enough  (ie light fittings with a 4-6 week lead time are ordered 1 week before the end of the job)

6. Sub-contractors are not booked early enough (ie they aren't available when you want them because they are already booked up)

7. Sub-contractors do substandard work which then has to be remediated (ie they decide that using metal trunking as per spec is unnecessary and use all-round-band instead)

8. The order of works is incorrect (ie the painters are sent in before all the first fixing is done, then again before all the second fixing is done, then again after that...)

9. The labour dispositions are badly managed (either too few or too many people on site)

10. Asbestos surveys are incomplete/inaccurate/absent

11. The specification is wrong/non-existent

12. Access equipment is inappropriate/unavailable


I can tell you now, that despite Council workers reputation for laziness, 9 times out of 10 when you see them standing around drinking tea or otherwise apparently doing nothing it is because of one of the aforementioned reasons, or they are discussing how to proceed. That 1 time in 10, yes, they are tossing it off, but in my experience it's less often than any office worker ever does.

Likewise remediation of apprentice/useless bastard fuckups doesn't often take long, as it usually gets spotted early enough.

Over here......when it comes to highway workers and this is no stereotype.....there is one guy digging the hole and three guys standing around watching him and jerking off.   

[Zucca]

Condolences then. I'd rather drill screws through my feet than ever use that fustercluck again. Only app I ever found less intuitive than EagleCAD. 

mnem
*cringe*

Ah, so you've never used FreeCAD then? 

I can't see, why the hate on FreeCAD? I use it regularly for over 4 years, so somewhat biased 
Every CAD tool has it's hooks and it has to fit towards the way you think. Naturally, not everyone can work with every tool, people don't think the same way - and if the tool is structured contrary to your internal workflow, you'll never get along. You'll have to use a different tool, better suited to the way you think, to get good results and not hurt yourself continually. People try to get started in Freecad (or any tool really) for a month and not get anywhere, fall into that category. Of course the other thing are people coming from different tools, that expect things to work in a specific way.
But I've seen and helped people getting started in Kicad and Freecad around me, and would not say getting started in one is much harder than the other. Like FreeCAD, there are people hating on Kicad because "all the buttons are in the wrong places" - IMHO, for the same reason, see above.
Yes, FreeCAD allows you to do things in different ways, and some of them will shoot you in the foot later. Sometimes there is only one good way. Part of the learning curve is to learn to design around that. Yes, it would be better for that not to be the case, but I need it today. IMHO it's still the best bet for a free CAD tool with a wide feature set. It get's the job done and for a free CAM tool there is no alternative AFAIK. At least none that's easier to use, or even on par feature-wise. That said, to construct a mechanism or whole machine / device, I would not want to do it in FreeCAD. But for the odd 3d printed or 2.5d milled part? More than good enough!

From my perspective it's just the clunk factor. It's ok but it needs a lot of polish.

Most of the open source software out there hasn't had "the 2nd 90%" of the development effort expended.

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

This was 100% my experience with EagleCAD; and everything I've read, heard or made up about FreeCAD says it is worse.

mnem
I don't need my testicles ground into a fine paste by software that constantly    ; I'm just fine with them being a little lumpy.

I tried to use Eagle once (but had been touched by Kicad's grace before) and could not get anything done. Turned and fled. I've literally rather gotten an F in that course than to touch that SW again. I'll happily agree on the part that it's counterintuitive for me.
But with FreeCAD, it really wasn't too bad, even back then? Even in the beginning, it wasn't the UI that was holding me back, more the lack of 3d modelling experience and Freecad's "it won't fit that way" bugs.
Edit: I think what parts a good from a bad UI (or an intuitive from an non-/counter-intuitive one): if you have not used it for a while, you can get back into it easily. No consulting the manual, scratching your head for a while, etc.

FreeCAD is awesome:

1) best bang for the bucks without working online and giving all your designs to fat miss Cloud
2) If you have a problem, post it before you go to bed on the FreeCAD forum. When you wake up in the morning, the solution will be waiting for you on a silver plate.
3) Integration with KiCAD
4) Python friendly if you want to go ninja level.

Once you are done vomiting for the first week into the no sense FreeCAD menus of menus, you will never look back.

[Brumby]

... "the 2nd 90%" of the development effort expended.

Oh hell.....  You just gave me a flashback to half of the major projects I've overseen in the commercial IT scene.  Management just has to put their stamp on everything, don't they?!!

[Zucca]

I knew it 
I will try one more time, but they are forcing me to go off grid...

1) I do not want to buy at the double price I am selling back to them
2) I want to put how much panels I want on my roof in my property
3) Yes the base price for a bidirectional meter is 16$ instead or the regular 12$ each month, and recently a power company in the area bumped it up to 30$/month just because.

Finally I talked yesterday with Mark a nice eng from the power company:

As long I do not feed back energy from my home to the grid:

1) No need to change my contract or install a bidirectional meter. My base price will stay the same 12$/month.
Will cost less than an emergency generator with maintenance included.

2) There is no more the 100% energy offset concept. I am allowed to get as much power I want from my roof.

3) Only an anti-islanding, quick disconnect device is required.

Basically since I will stay passive, what happen behind the meter is not power company beer.

Sharing all the above with all 3 solar companies I am talking to, they are all going "Oh Oh, this is interesting and awesome... thanks for sharing..."

 

[Brumby]

Well, that was a fun night.  I have just sifted through and cleared out about 11,500 emails from one of my key accounts.  Still leaves me with 2,200 or so, though 75% of those are really 'optional'.

Say what you will about Outlook, but it's been pretty resilient for me.



I think I need some rosin fumes.......

[mnementh]

There's unintuitive and then there's counterintuitive. My experience with most software produced by computer nerds for computer nerds is that it will invariably be the latter, as design follows ease of coding rather than any earthly understanding of how a human being with an actual workflow needs to get things done.

Reminds me of the software that processed photos and then saved them as Photo 0, 1, 2, 3...

Do programmers' wives also have their firstborne as the 0th child?

No, but programmers do. This disparity of POV is but one of many reasons successful programmers rarely stay married long enough live long enough to have kids. 

mnem

[TERRA Operative]

I vote +1 for Rhinoceros 3D for 3D CAD, been using it for decades.
Besides it's lack of parametric modelling, it's intuitive to use, complies with Windows UI design language, and is really powerful.

[mnementh]

I knew it 
I will try one more time, but they are forcing me to go off grid...

1) I do not want to buy at the double price I am selling back to them
2) I want to put how much panels I want on my roof in my property
3) Yes the base price for a bidirectional meter is 16$ instead or the regular 12$ each month, and recently a power company in the area bumped it up to 30$/month just because.

Finally I talked yesterday with Mark a nice eng from the power company:

As long I do not feed back energy from my home to the grid:

1) No need to change my contract or install a bidirectional meter. My base price will stay the same 12$/month.
Will cost less than an emergency generator with maintenance included.

2) There is no more the 100% energy offset concept. I am allowed to get as much power I want from my roof.

3) Only an anti-islanding, quick disconnect device is required.

Basically since I will stay passive, what happen behind the meter is not power company beer.

Sharing all the above with all 3 solar companies I am talking to, they are all going "Oh Oh, this is interesting and awesome... thanks for sharing..."

 

Yeah... that's what I thought should be the case. Big fat steaming pile of NUNYA!

The anti-islanding device was what I was thinking of when I suggested a lockout; point is they don't want you feeding juice back into the grid, which then is stepped up by the transformers on the pole, thereby creating a life-threatening charged transmission line when it should be dead, for the electric company workers to deal with when they're trying to bring the locked-down substation (term?) back online.

Cheers,

mnem
   watt?

[m k]

I knew it 
I will try one more time, but they are forcing me to go off grid...

1) I do not want to buy at the double price I am selling back to them
2) I want to put how much panels I want on my roof in my property
3) Yes the base price for a bidirectional meter is 16$ instead or the regular 12$ each month, and recently a power company in the area bumped it up to 30$/month just because.

Finally I talked yesterday with Mark a nice eng from the power company:

As long I do not feed back energy from my home to the grid:

1) No need to change my contract or install a bidirectional meter. My base price will stay the same 12$/month.
Will cost less than an emergency generator with maintenance included.

2) There is no more the 100% energy offset concept. I am allowed to get as much power I want from my roof.

3) Only an anti-islanding, quick disconnect device is required.

Basically since I will stay passive, what happen behind the meter is not power company beer.

Sharing all the above with all 3 solar companies I am talking to, they are all going "Oh Oh, this is interesting and awesome... thanks for sharing..."

 

What was the beginning?
I've not followed it.

I've wondered many times why people are so keen to selling their excess.
How many life times it'll take to pay that hardware back.

Here I'd probably have to pay more /kWh if my usage goes under some electric heating level but that is probably all.
Then I read how somebody is selling watt hours.
I don't get it.

Though I do know that unauthorized panels are or used to be a big no-no in Spain.
My understanding is also that it includes all types of uses and that the reason is overall used grid power.

[m k]

Currently, sitting here waiting for the workmen to arrive. We are having the bathroom refitted and were told that they would be with us this morning at 8.00AM, now 8.54AM and still sign of them. The job is supposed to take upto 2 weeks, thinking of taking friendly bets on the completion date 

Before placing any bets: Are the builders (1) Native English, or (2) Polish?

If they are English then it'll take 4 weeks due to the lateness, slacking and tea breaks.

There are shit workers in every field; one just decided to resign earlier today on national TV, for example.



Here at Northern Shithole Council, projects finish late for several reasons, here are a few of the most common, not necessarily in order of impact or timeline:

1. The design keeps changing

2. The client keeps adding more things on

3. The design is wrong (doesn't match the building, not conforming to codes, not conforming to the known laws of physics, etc)

4. There is no design/are no drawings

5. The gear is not ordered early enough  (ie light fittings with a 4-6 week lead time are ordered 1 week before the end of the job)

6. Sub-contractors are not booked early enough (ie they aren't available when you want them because they are already booked up)

7. Sub-contractors do substandard work which then has to be remediated (ie they decide that using metal trunking as per spec is unnecessary and use all-round-band instead)

8. The order of works is incorrect (ie the painters are sent in before all the first fixing is done, then again before all the second fixing is done, then again after that...)

9. The labour dispositions are badly managed (either too few or too many people on site)

10. Asbestos surveys are incomplete/inaccurate/absent

11. The specification is wrong/non-existent

12. Access equipment is inappropriate/unavailable


I can tell you now, that despite Council workers reputation for laziness, 9 times out of 10 when you see them standing around drinking tea or otherwise apparently doing nothing it is because of one of the aforementioned reasons, or they are discussing how to proceed. That 1 time in 10, yes, they are tossing it off, but in my experience it's less often than any office worker ever does.

Likewise remediation of apprentice/useless bastard fuckups doesn't often take long, as it usually gets spotted early enough.

Over here......when it comes to highway workers and this is no stereotype.....there is one guy digging the hole and three guys standing around watching him and jerking off.   

I've seen that once, one digging, two watching, county staff.
Then boss came with county pickup, and so three were watching.
Then my buss went away.

We have multilane roads with center area light poles.
Changing a bulb there is not a one man gig.

For software,
I'm using LibreOffice, Live Mail and Gimp.
But I'm using them like I want.
PDF has changed a lot for those who don't need it so bidirectional.

[m k]

Is there possibly a military grade high resolution video system with small screens?
Just wondering from where HP got their idea.

A cursory look at my records turned up the following ducuments:

RCC 452-86 Video standards and Formats (RCC: Range Commanders Council)
MIL-HDBK-87213A (USAF) ELECTRONICALLY / OPTICALLY GENERATED AIRBORNE DISPLAYS
MIL-STD-1556 Aircrew station displays and assoc. equipment, definitons of

Will take another look later.

No need to look more, things have changed.

[Robert763]

I knew it 
I will try one more time, but they are forcing me to go off grid...

1) I do not want to buy at the double price I am selling back to them
2) I want to put how much panels I want on my roof in my property
3) Yes the base price for a bidirectional meter is 16$ instead or the regular 12$ each month, and recently a power company in the area bumped it up to 30$/month just because.

Finally I talked yesterday with Mark a nice eng from the power company:

As long I do not feed back energy from my home to the grid:

1) No need to change my contract or install a bidirectional meter. My base price will stay the same 12$/month.
Will cost less than an emergency generator with maintenance included.

2) There is no more the 100% energy offset concept. I am allowed to get as much power I want from my roof.

3) Only an anti-islanding, quick disconnect device is required.

Basically since I will stay passive, what happen behind the meter is not power company beer.

Sharing all the above with all 3 solar companies I am talking to, they are all going "Oh Oh, this is interesting and awesome... thanks for sharing..."

 

Well that is exactly what I thought the situation was. I said nothing because maybe your state or whatever regulations were different. It certainly makes sense.

[Robert763]

I knew it 
I will try one more time, but they are forcing me to go off grid...

1) I do not want to buy at the double price I am selling back to them
2) I want to put how much panels I want on my roof in my property
3) Yes the base price for a bidirectional meter is 16$ instead or the regular 12$ each month, and recently a power company in the area bumped it up to 30$/month just because.

Finally I talked yesterday with Mark a nice eng from the power company:

As long I do not feed back energy from my home to the grid:

1) No need to change my contract or install a bidirectional meter. My base price will stay the same 12$/month.
Will cost less than an emergency generator with maintenance included.

2) There is no more the 100% energy offset concept. I am allowed to get as much power I want from my roof.

3) Only an anti-islanding, quick disconnect device is required.

Basically since I will stay passive, what happen behind the meter is not power company beer.

Sharing all the above with all 3 solar companies I am talking to, they are all going "Oh Oh, this is interesting and awesome... thanks for sharing..."

 

What was the beginning?
I've not followed it.

I've wondered many times why people are so keen to selling their excess.
How many life times it'll take to pay that hardware back.

Here I'd probably have to pay more /kWh if my usage goes under some electric heating level but that is probably all.
Then I read how somebody is selling watt hours.
I don't get it.

Though I do know that unauthorized panels are or used to be a big no-no in Spain.
My understanding is also that it includes all types of uses and that the reason is overall used grid power.

Well in some countries you were / are paid MORE for the power fed into the grid than you pay for power taken out of it. Sometimes a lot more. This is of course paid for by a "green" tax on all the other consumers.
I've often wondered if anyone out there was charging batteries during the night and feeding the grid in the day to make money....

[TERRA Operative]

Well in some countries you were / are paid MORE for the power fed into the grid than you pay for power taken out of it.

This is the case here in Japan, well for me at least. The rebates are shrinking over time as they do, but from the point you sign the contract your rates are locked in for 10 years, regardless how the price drops over time.
I don't know the exact numbers, but with the almost 10kW of panels we have we often end up paying nothing for electricity and get a deposit in our account. Mostly during summer when the sun is shiny.

Which reminds me, I need to get around to designing a single-axis tilt mechanism to allow me to optimise the panel angle over the year.... Any ideas for panels mounted on a slight angle on galvanised C-channels on a flat roof?

[Saskia]

it is nearly impossible to find someone to throw pv onto the roof around here. Prices have gone thru the same. Wish me luck, sometime next week a company agreed to come over to have a quick look.
As energy prices are going thru the roof thanks to  our know it all government (Cheetah, Lassie and Flipper would do a better job than German politicians right now) I am running out of options.
FML.

*cough* bloody bronchitis. And the year is about over, too, which means I am running out of time with my projects.

[bd139]

So sitting here cleaning test gear again.

Anyone got any ideas what might remove this horrible idiot graffiti on the panel? Isopropyl doesn’t touch it.

[Zucca]

Cheetah, Lassie and Flipper would do a better job than German politicians right now

Also BoJo in GB is providing better entertainment than Netflix at the moment.
Still a way to go to reach Italy level, we trigger government change according to the moon phases.

Saskia, try buy batteries from them
https://www.docanpower.com
ship from china to your door and no bad surprises (according to what I know).

I feel your pain, you German TEA gang should team up and start a PV solar company 

[Zucca]

Anyone got any ideas what might remove this horrible idiot graffiti on the panel? Isopropyl doesn’t touch it.

Pencil erase rubber?

[Vince]

So sitting here cleaning test gear again.

Anyone got any ideas what might remove this horrible idiot graffiti on the panel? Isopropyl doesn’t touch it.

Looks like pencil so.. a pencil eraser ?! 

Simple things first 

However it looks like your alcohol discoloured (or brought back the original colour....) the panel. So now you will have to do the entire panel so it looks even ! 

[Cubdriver]

So sitting here cleaning test gear again.

Anyone got any ideas what might remove this horrible idiot graffiti on the panel? Isopropyl doesn’t touch it.

Cold chisel?  <ducking>

-Pat

[Neper]

So sitting here cleaning test gear again.

Anyone got any ideas what might remove this horrible idiot graffiti on the panel? Isopropyl doesn’t touch it.

One of those magic sponges? If all else fails, you might try acetone (nail varnish remover) but be VERY careful and start with a tiny little spot.