Poll

What is an acceptable boot up time for a general purpose bench multimeter

<1 second
4 (4.5%)
up to 5 seconds
23 (26.1%)
up to 10 seconds
18 (20.5%)
up to 20 seconds
10 (11.4%)
up to 30 seconds
7 (8%)
up to 45 seconds
1 (1.1%)
up to 60 seconds
2 (2.3%)
It doesn't matter
19 (21.6%)
It Depends....
4 (4.5%)

Total Members Voted: 88

Author Topic: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?  (Read 4061 times)

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Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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[Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« on: November 18, 2022, 11:15:48 am »
I just upgraded to the Keysight 34465A and noticed that it took an age to turn on.

I had been using an Agilent 34401A which powers on from fully off (mains disconnect power button) to being able to measure a DC voltage in under 3 seconds. This is about the time it takes me to adjust my chair.

The Keysight 34465A takes a whopping 25 seconds FROM STANDBY! The unit isn't even fully powered off. This just leaves me twiddling my thumbs waiting for the unit to turn on when all I might need to do is check a resistor.

With the 34401A I could walk to my bench, perform the measurement and be back to my desk halfway through typing an email before the 34465A has even turned on.

I know that for any meaningful measurement you should allow your test equipment time to stabilise its internal temperature; but there are times you just need a quick and dirty measurement, so for those general purpose times what is your opinion?
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 08:55:32 pm by Leeima »
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2022, 11:26:55 am »
My first DMM was the 289 and at the time the around 5s from pressing the button until being ready to measure was acceptable for my needs, compared with that the equipment in question can do.

At the time I didn't know better, back in 2007. Nowardays after some more years and now also owning the 87V I must say I love the almost instant on of it, to the point that I think the 189 would had been a better choice back at the day.

Still I think that anything close to 5sec is the right amount.
 

Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2022, 11:32:12 am »
I hadn't considered handheld multimeters. A fast on time is even more important with them, since you're always switching them off to conserve the battery.

The 189 is definitely faster than the 87IV (I don't have either of mine to hand to check)

 

Offline David Hess

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2022, 12:07:24 pm »
A handheld meter should be ready immediately.  A bench multimeter can take time because it is going to be left on all day anyway.
 
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Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2022, 12:08:19 pm »
I just decided to measure the power on time for all the multimeters my firm has laying around.
Unfortunately these are all older models (read software light) so I don't have any comparison to other current model top brand meters.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 12:10:19 pm by Leeima »
 
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Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2022, 12:21:14 pm »
I said less than 1 second for a hand held DMM. For the bench it really doesn't matter.
When Fluke said they couldn't repair my 87 (original 87) any more around 2004 they offered me $100 discount if I buy another meter so I bought the 189. A couple of months later they offered me a $100 Home Depot gift card for 1 hr interview about their new DMM.
So they came with the 287/289 simulator on their laptop. They asked me a lot about the features but one thing I didn't realize that the simulator hided 2 aspects of the 287/289 that I hated the most when I actually had them around 2015. First is the very slow start up time and second is the very low contrast of the display.
 

Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2022, 12:35:41 pm »
I agree that a lot of engineers do leave their bench-top equipment on permanently throughout the day - often for good reason
Which I also will do when I'm making certain measurements.

My needs of a benchtop DMM are somewhat sporadic - I might run it 24/7 for weeks, and other times I might use the meter for one or two measurement in the day.
So I tend to switch it off when it's not in use.

That's before you even get any office managers wanting the equipment switched off to save money on electricity/reduce noise


 

Online Hydron

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2022, 01:07:24 pm »
No "It depends" choice :(
In my case the ~15s power-up time of my DMM6500 became much more acceptable once I placed a 34401A next to it, so I have something with really fast boot (a bit over 2 seconds, add another second if using the hidden settings-recall option) for quick measurements. The boot time of the 3446xA meters was a major turn-off when I was DMM shopping, and one of the reasons I went for the significantly-faster Keithley.
 
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Online tautech

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2022, 06:42:19 pm »
Sorry but useless poll, define DMM, bench or handheld. Then edit the topic title to accurately represent what you want the thread and poll to portray.
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Offline Grandchuck

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2022, 07:35:03 pm »
It states at the very top:  What is an acceptable boot up time for a general purpose bench multimeter
 

Offline BillyO

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2022, 08:36:35 pm »
I go into my lab in the morning, turn everything I may need during the day on (if it's not already on), then go get a coffee.  Nothing is ever still starting up by the time I get back, so for my process it's meaningless.
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Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #11 on: November 18, 2022, 08:42:33 pm »
No "It depends" choice :(
In my case the ~15s power-up time of my DMM6500 became much more acceptable once I placed a 34401A next to it, so I have something with really fast boot (a bit over 2 seconds, add another second if using the hidden settings-recall option) for quick measurements. The boot time of the 3446xA meters was a major turn-off when I was DMM shopping, and one of the reasons I went for the significantly-faster Keithley.

I've added an it depends choice. I didn't think of that option.

Had I known the 3446xA meters boot time I may have changed my choice; I still have the 34401A so I guess that will remain as the quick to use meter.
 

Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #12 on: November 18, 2022, 09:23:55 pm »
Sorry but useless poll, define DMM, bench or handheld. Then edit the topic title to accurately represent what you want the thread and poll to portray.
TIA.

I've updated the topic to refer specifically to Benchtop instruments (this was on the poll question but I missed it on the topic).  :)
But even that is broad, as I know many hobbyists use handhelds on their workbench as their primary meter - which you could class as a benchtop meter in a sense.

The purpose for the poll was to get people discussing the power on time of instruments - I just happened to have an issue with a DMM today.
The power on time is not something I have often see on spec sheets or talked about.

Ideally I'd want to see the reasoning behind the various choices people are making, but I not familiar enough with the poll tool - if it's even possible.
I suspect their would be regional opinions.






 
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Offline thm_w

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #13 on: November 18, 2022, 10:23:59 pm »
Doesn't really matter, if the extra time comes with suitable featureset.
eg if all it does is display voltage, resistance, etc. and nothing else, it should boot in 2s. If its a sophisticated meter that logs, graphs, converts, has color screen, then 30s is fine.

A handheld meter should be ready immediately.  A bench multimeter can take time because it is going to be left on all day anyway.

Yeah if you are checking a resistor, use a handheld DMM for that.
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #14 on: November 18, 2022, 10:29:11 pm »
34410a  is around 6-7 secs ..  witch is acceptable for me
 
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Offline sokoloff

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2022, 01:44:23 am »
If I want a fast, ~2 digits of accuracy measurement, I've got plenty of handheld DMMs that are capable to do that with a boot-up time that is practically zero.

If I'm using a benchtop meter, it's almost always for a measurement where the handheld DMM wasn't appropriate for some reason. For those cases, I'm never doing it at virtual gunpoint and the meter has been on all day.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2022, 03:10:51 am »
A precision 6.5 digit meter like the 34465A is not a 'general purpose' DMM and bootup time is my least concern for an instrument like that.  A handheld DMM isn't necessarily what you want either, as those are aimed at portability more than anything else.  So a second bench meter that turns on instantly is good to have since it is always in one place and always ready to go (unless the power goes out...).  Lots of older bench DMMs fit the bill and are ready to go in a second or two, but perhaps without their ultimate accuracy in some cases.  The tradeoff is that they don't do as many things as more modern versions. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2022, 03:30:37 am »
I believe 34401A is roughly 256KB of firmware with no OS. Keysight 34465A was over 30MB last time I checked. That's around 100X more and it takes a long time to boot.
Then add the several minutes for the voltage reference to heat up and stabilize. Then add the time to poke around the settings menus. Not much fun.
 

Offline LeeimaTopic starter

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2022, 09:10:08 am »
A precision 6.5 digit meter like the 34465A is not a 'general purpose' DMM and bootup time is my least concern for an instrument like that.  A handheld DMM isn't necessarily what you want either, as those are aimed at portability more than anything else.  So a second bench meter that turns on instantly is good to have since it is always in one place and always ready to go (unless the power goes out...).  Lots of older bench DMMs fit the bill and are ready to go in a second or two, but perhaps without their ultimate accuracy in some cases.  The tradeoff is that they don't do as many things as more modern versions.

What level of precision do you consider to no longer be a general purpose meter? For me I'm thinking 7.5 digit and 8.5 digit are not general purpose.
At my place everyone has at least one 6.5 digit meter.

There's not much in the price between a 5.5 digit and 6.5 Benchtop meter, so I don't tend to bother even looking at the 5.5 digit models.




 

Offline skander36

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2022, 01:21:27 pm »
As many said here, I always keep on the table a handheld DMM with enough precision(0.025) for quick measurements. If I need precision of a benchtop DMM (0.0025) then I need it to be stable enough, so it need at least 20-30 min. Even the DMM will be able to load his software and UI ready for measurements, the thermal stability need to be reached, and this is another story...
 
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2022, 01:48:35 pm »
Some Keysight  have an windows ce  embedded if i recall,  that's  why  it can take a while,   

other Keysight are linux / vxwork  ... based ...
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: [Poll] DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2022, 01:49:22 pm »
I hadn't considered handheld multimeters. A fast on time is even more important with them, since you're always switching them off to conserve the battery.

The 189 is definitely faster than the 87IV (I don't have either of mine to hand to check)

Sorry the title before didn't specify type and I'm not that verse with model no.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2022, 05:03:33 pm »
What level of precision do you consider to no longer be a general purpose meter? For me I'm thinking 7.5 digit and 8.5 digit are not general purpose.
At my place everyone has at least one 6.5 digit meter.

There's not much in the price between a 5.5 digit and 6.5 Benchtop meter, so I don't tend to bother even looking at the 5.5 digit models.

That's a fair question and I suppose different people use the term 'general purpose' differently.  I was thinking 'basic', like check this battery or do a quick continuity check.  I'm not at a bench full time or even every day, so leaving the meters on all the time is not really a good option.  In the sense that they do everything--capacitance, diodes, current, frequency, digitizing--I suppose modern 6.5 digit meters are 'general purpose', but so are many 7.5 and 8.5 digit models.  My thought is that if you actually need 6.5 digits worth of precision, waiting 30 seconds is no big deal--you can turn the meter on first and then get set up to measure. 

That said, I suppose 25 seconds from standby is a bit hard to understand--why even have the standby function?  Still, I think the best solution is multiple meters since it is pretty common to need to measure 2-3 things at once.  After some experimentation, I settled on the solution pictured--the 'boot times' from top to bottom are ~15 seconds (2 sec from standby), 3 seconds and 0 seconds.  This works better than handhelds because I don't have to rummage around for the meter, find a place to put it and untangle the test leads--it's just there and ready to go.  I don't know what you can buy commercially today to replace these.



A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline nukie

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2022, 05:22:03 am »
This is a good reason for buying a DMM with a instant on nature. If you are not willing to leave your 6.5 digit meter on 24x7 then buy a fast starting 4.5 DMM. Generally bench meters are meant to be powered on and kept warm. Solar panels perhaps. I can't tolerate a 'booting up' portable dmm.
 

Online Kleinstein

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Re: [Poll] Benchtop DMM Acceptable Power On Time?
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2022, 12:24:14 pm »
The startup has 2 parts: one is booting the OS, that modern DMMs, especially those with graphics or LAN interface use. The parts is doing some self test on power one - for certain instruments new regulation require a self test. The problem there is that a really stringent self test also needs the analog hardware to be reasonable settled a possibly even thermally reasonable stable (e.g. for a heated reference) before the more sensitive parts of the self test are done.

With a standby mode the boot time should be relatively short - no real excuse for more than some 10 s there.

For high accuracy measurments one needs the warm-up time anyway, but quite often one also uses the meter (maybe not so much a 8 digit one) for tasks that don't need the full performance and just want a fast result. With 4 wire ohms a handheld meter is not really an option there.
 
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