Author Topic: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread  (Read 18663 times)

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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« on: July 16, 2017, 11:34:12 am »
[EDIT] There is a already a thread for this scope here. However, that thread has a lot of pre-release argument in it about whether Siglent will fix the few known bugs in a timely fashion; if you want to join in at that level please do so; what I will try to do here is maintain a brief summary of the current status e.g. when firmware updates are released etc.

I have bought this nice (IMHO) scope from www.saelig.com with an EEVBLOG discount.  Apart from the link above, the scope is mentioned in many different posts but mainly under a "Siglent SDS1202X-E vs <insert your choice of scope here>" format so I decided to give it it's own summary thread.  Siglent have a support thread here on the EEVBLOG forums but, as others have already said, they are causing confusion by requesting all bug reports and suggestions for improvements for all their products to be placed in that one thread.

Status as of July 16, 2017
The SDS1202X-E can be purchased in the US for around $360 which is excellent for a 200 MHz, 1 Gsps, 2-channel scope with free serial decoding built in.  It's one of the first pieces of test gear to use a Xilinx Zynq 7020 FPGA (which I have recently done a project for), that FPGA features a dual-core ARM A9 processor which means it's got a lot of hardware horsepower.  Mine is working fine and I would not hesitate to recommend it to anyone looking for a capable low end scope (no I don't work for Siglent).  There are 2 or 3 known bugs that will, according to Tautech, be addressed in a revised firmware version due out 'soon'.

Please try to limit postings here to information and questions on the SDS1202X-E only.

Reviews & Links
Dave has done a full tear down
Dave has a brief video review of the decoding features
Defpom has a full video review
Tonywilk Started a thread here in which he details a couple of know bugs and how to work around them
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 12:39:17 pm by Gandalf_Sr »
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: The UNOFFICIAL Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2017, 11:43:34 am »
With all respect, but there is already an official thread for that oscilloscope, initiated by myself at the launch date.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/

Please use the same!
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 02:16:51 pm by pascal_sweden »
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The 'Official' Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2017, 12:07:01 pm »
Hmmm, the title of your thread is what confused me, I searched for "SDS1202X-E" and did not find it.  However, readers of this thread may want to use your link to get there.
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Online tautech

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 12:42:39 pm »
[EDIT] There is a already a thread for this scope here. However, that thread has a lot of pre-release argument in it about whether Siglent will fix the few known bugs in a timely fashion; if you want to join in at that level please do so; what I will try to do here is maintain a brief summary of the current status e.g. when firmware updates are released etc.
:)
I've been thinking of doing exactly this to tidy up little threads from all over the forum.
Re the expected FW, it has been bumped back a couple of times but just a few days ago I was told mid July so it should come soon we hope.

Let me drop Pt 2 from Defpom here too:


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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 12:53:21 pm »
Thanks Tautech, I'm not trying to steal anyone's thread and I'm certainly not trying to confuse anyone, I created this thread because I searched for "SDS1202X-E" and didn't find the one Pascal_Sweden subsequently told me about.  For people who are thinking of buying or who have bought this scope, what's needed is a summary thread - anyone who wants to link across to any of the other threads is free to do so.  Next I think this thread needs a simple summary of the known bugs with workarounds if there are any.
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Offline pascal_sweden

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 02:17:22 pm »
In my original thread the focus is also around the Zynq-7000 SoC architecture, which is an important and unique aspect of this oscilloscope.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-siglent-sds1000x-e-oscilloscope-based-on-xilinx-zynq-7000-soc-architecture/
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 03:55:30 pm »
IMHO creating a 4th thread because the other existing 3 are not helpfull in your opinion is not a good way to make things more clear. Better add a summary post to an existing thread if you feel inclined to do so.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 06:00:22 pm »
IMHO creating a 4th thread because the other existing 3 are not helpfull in your opinion is not a good way to make things more clear. Better add a summary post to an existing thread if you feel inclined to do so.
IMHO, clogging up reasonable threads with stuff that makes it appear as if you're paid to hate Siglent is not a good way to to help people understand how a product actually performs; if those other threads weren't full of such unhelpful posts from you, I may not have been inclined to create a summary thread.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2017, 06:14:43 pm »
IMHO creating a 4th thread because the other existing 3 are not helpfull in your opinion is not a good way to make things more clear. Better add a summary post to an existing thread if you feel inclined to do so.
IMHO, clogging up reasonable threads with stuff that makes it appear as if you're paid to hate Siglent is not a good way to to help people understand how a product actually performs; if those other threads weren't full of such unhelpful posts from you, I may not have been inclined to create a summary thread.
This forum has moderators which will step in when necessary and I guess my posts where OK with them because they are not slanderous. Either way they don't need you for policing this forum.  :palm:
Oh and while I'm typing anyway: don't forget to add the list of bugs you promised because no summary thread is complete without those >:D
« Last Edit: July 16, 2017, 06:18:52 pm by nctnico »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The UNOFFICIAL Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2017, 09:02:07 pm »
With all respect, but there is already an official thread for that oscilloscope, initiated by myself at the launch date.



Official thread....   phew.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 01:15:10 am »
Bugs Summary
1. Some people have had issues with triggering - this may be associated with 2...
2. If x10 is selected, thresholds don't keep up which means triggering appears not to work, may be the cause of 1
3. There's a menu item for 50 Ohm/1 Meg Ohm and it doesn't do anything
4. There's some weirdity around the menus

Tautech
says that a new update is coming out "very soon"
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 09:01:58 am »
Bugs Summary
1. Some people have had issues with triggering - this may be associated with 2...
2. If x10 is selected, thresholds don't keep up which means triggering appears not to work, may be the cause of 1
3. There's a menu item for 50 Ohm/1 Meg Ohm and it doesn't do anything
4. There's some weirdity around the menus

Tautech
says that a new update is coming out "very soon"

2. If I have probe set 1x  and set trigger level example 100mV and then I change probe set to 10x trigger level is now 1V.   Is it wrong. No it is right.

Every separate bug / error need some definition and  data. 

If some function is  questionable then explanation definition and arguments how it need change and why, including different situations.

After bug can regognize and repeat in what ever lab and specially in Siglent then it can repair.

Example: "Some bug in some trig functions".  This sentence is useful only for those mercenaries who want use it against Siglent.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 09:38:59 am »
rf-loop I already linked to the description of the bug by Tonywilk above. I'm trying to keep this a summary thread so my bug list is really only intended as an index although it might be useful for me to add links to the bugs.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2017, 01:21:00 pm »
rf-loop I already linked to the description of the bug by Tonywilk above. I'm trying to keep this a summary thread so my bug list is really only intended as an index although it might be useful for me to add links to the bugs.

This ok. Sorry I did not see this small link, but yers it is there..... old eyes and small monitor.  I watch this video and there I did not find any real bug and also my comment was mainly general.


Generally for all readers and testers

When (I did not say IF...) peoples report errors/bugs/opinions about develop some function most important thing is documenting so that it is as unambiguous as possible and error is replicable in what ever lab.  I'm very sceptic for errors what occur occasionally / randomly. There is nothing random inside.. No one can repair error what can not repeat.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2017, 02:27:04 pm »
I'm very sceptic for errors what occur occasionally / randomly. There is nothing random inside.
Unfortunately software has bugs which can act up seemingly randomly because they 'depend' on a sequence of events and/or specific values in memory. So you can't dismiss random events!
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 03:19:23 pm »
I'm very sceptic for errors what occur occasionally / randomly. There is nothing random inside.
Unfortunately software has bugs which can act up seemingly randomly because they 'depend' on a sequence of events and/or specific values in memory. So you can't dismiss random events!
(straw man)
Who have told these can dismiss.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 03:57:38 pm »
I'm very sceptic for errors what occur occasionally / randomly. There is nothing random inside.
Unfortunately software has bugs which can act up seemingly randomly because they 'depend' on a sequence of events and/or specific values in memory. So you can't dismiss random events!
(straw man)
Who have told these can dismiss.
Your post implied that loud and clear. In my experience with writing software the random errors are the worst to find but also the most important to fix because they make or break the customer's confidence in the software/product. I've learned to take bug reports stating some kind of random error seriously.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2017, 05:39:23 am »
rf-loop I already linked to the description of the bug by Tonywilk above. I'm trying to keep this a summary thread so my bug list is really only intended as an index although it might be useful for me to add links to the bugs.
Let's see what's been fixed:
SDS1202X-E firmware update
Version 5.1.3.13
5.4 Mb

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip

Changelog
1. Cursor values not correct if probe attenuation was not set to 1X
2. Removed channel input impedance of 50?
3. Added external load setting to FFT menu. If using an external load, amplitudes can be shown in dBm
4. Repaired intermittent lock up after enabling decoding function
5. Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop messages
6. Removed Option label from UI
7. Corrected cursor measurements for active Zoom with FFT
8. Added telnet(port 5024) and open socket(port 5025) for LAN communication
9. Fixed blank zoom bug. With both channels at 2 ms/div, 7 Mpts, and a zoom of 500 ns/div, the zoom window would blank.
10. Fixed decode threshold levels for 10X probe attenuation selection.
11. Fixed average mode. After pressing [Run/Stop] to halt acquisition, the display changed to the last waveform, rather than maintaining the averaged waveform
12. Remain the final message for firmware update until rebooted
13. Fixed the issue with Chinese language setting after self- calibration.
14. Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly.
15. Decreased waveform jitter with active measurements or math with horizontal delay out of the screen.
16. Added progress information while saving CSV files.
17. Fixed the Cycle RMS measurement does not update when the input signal changes
18. Keep “Print” picture type in accordance with the type selected from “Save/Recall”
19. Fixed user file renaming of a previously saved file.
20. Enabled decoding for time bases above 20ms/div.
21. Disable menu if cursors, measurement and math is disabled
22. Finished updates to support EasyScopeX and Labview driver.
23. Optimized channel self-calibration
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 09:26:21 am by tautech »
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Offline borjam

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2017, 08:44:04 am »
When (I did not say IF...) peoples report errors/bugs/opinions about develop some function most important thing is documenting so that it is as unambiguous as possible and error is replicable in what ever lab.  I'm very sceptic for errors what occur occasionally / randomly. There is nothing random inside.. No one can repair error what can not repeat.
Yes, computers are deterministic machines.

But (and it's a very big but)

Concurrency can result in such a chaotic behavior that it actually seems completely random. When I say chaotic I mean in the mathematical sense, that is, a minute change in the initial conditions causes a very important variation in the end result. Reproducing the events that lead to a race condition can be an almost impossible task. A system with an important bug can be running for ages without problems and, suddenly, fail one day because the right timing and conditions happened. It may never happen again, or happen very rarely.

At the end of the day, some bugs can be identified thanks to the frequency with which they manifest (at least it can give a hint) and the only way to prevent such problems is to design thoroughly and carefully.

Don't be so skeptical, the Gates of Tannhauser are full of programmers writing concurrent code ;)
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #19 on: July 18, 2017, 09:11:02 am »
Let's see what's been fixed:
SDS1202X-E firmware update
Version 5.1.3.13
5.4 Mb

http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/SDS1000X-E_5.1.3.13.zip

Changelog
1. Cursor values not correct if probe attenuation was not set to 1X
2. Removed channel input impedance of 50?
3. Added external load setting to FFT menu. If using an external load, amplitudes can be shown in dBm
4. Repaired intermittent lock up after enabling decoding function
5. Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop messages
6. Removed Option label from UI
7. Corrected cursor measurements for active Zoom with FFT
8. Added telnet(port 5024) and open socket(port 5025) for LAN communication
9. Fixed blank zoom bug. With both channels at 2 ms/div, 7 Mpts, and a zoom of 500 ns/div, the zoom window would blank.
10. Fixed decode threshold levels for 10X probe attenuation selection.
11. Fixed average mode. After pressing [Run/Stop] to halt acquisition, the display changed to the last waveform, rather than maintaining the averaged waveform
12. Remain the final message for firmware update until rebooted
13. Fixed the issue with Chinese language setting after self- calibration.
14. Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly.
15. Decreased waveform jitter with active measurements or math with horizontal delay out of the screen.
16. Added progress information while saving CSV files.
17. Fixed the Cycle RMS measurement does not update when the input signal changes
18. Keep “Print” picture type in accordance with the type selected from “Save/Recall”
19. Fixed user file renaming of a previously saved file.
20. Enabled decoding for time bases above 20ms/div.
21. Disable menu if cursors, measurement and math is disabled
22. Finished updates to support EasyScopeX and Labview driver.
And
23. Optimized channel self-calibration
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Online tautech

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #20 on: July 18, 2017, 10:56:00 am »
Along with the new firmware there's also a new version of EasyScopeX and Labview drivers:
http://siglentamerica.com/prodcut-gjjrj.aspx?id=5109&tid=1&T=2
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #21 on: July 18, 2017, 01:57:32 pm »
New firmware is out - cool!  Have you applied it to a scope yet Tautech?  Did you do it from EasyScopeX or did you use a thumb-drive? Did all go well?
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Offline klaff

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #22 on: July 18, 2017, 02:04:26 pm »
The bug list covered looks pretty good. 

The one thing I don't see addressed there is that the serial decoding doesn't work properly on history frames. Specifically, the decoded content shows the value of the last frame even if you switch to previous frames. I saw this while using CAN decoding and haven't tried to check it with other formats.

Otherwise this looks very promising.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2017, 02:17:46 pm »
New firmware is out - cool!  Have you applied it to a scope yet Tautech?  Did you do it from EasyScopeX or did you use a thumb-drive? Did all go well?

I have updated and ok. (of course using USB stick)

How to update. Please read current user manual version E02B  and there page 159.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDS1000X-E_UserManul_UM0101E-E02B.pdf
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2017, 02:46:51 pm »
I too updated using the USB stick and performed a self-cal as instructed.  It now reports SW 5.1.3.13 but I now have a triggering issue.  Using the test output, I connect to Ch1 and set DC trigger at 464mV and the scope probe set to x1 with matching selection on the Ch1 menu.  As I increase the vertical sensitivity, I can get down to 200 mV/div and all is OK, then I click once more to 100 mV/div and the display goes weird - see pictures.  The horizontal time base doesn't seem to make any difference.  I'm not sure if this was there before  :-BROKE

[EDIT1] I proved this wasn't the built in ref signal generator by using an external gene.  As I turn the vertical knob from 200 mV to 100 mV, I hear a relay click and the problem appears, clearly the second trace should show the bottom of the waveform just above the [1> marker at the left with double the vertical resolution, instead the traces appear to track off the bottom of the screen and this issue remains as long as I'm at a vertical resolution <200 mV/div

[EDIT2]nctnico has pointed out that this is not a bug, it's apparently what happens to most scopes when the input circuitry is overloaded.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 05:32:10 pm by Gandalf_Sr »
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Offline niekvs

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2017, 02:49:48 pm »
The one thing I don't see addressed there is that the serial decoding doesn't work properly on history frames. Specifically, the decoded content shows the value of the last frame even if you switch to previous frames. I saw this while using CAN decoding and haven't tried to check it with other formats.

Could this be related to fix #14: "Fixed the CAN source bug. If the source selected was CANH or CANL, decode would not work correctly."?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2017, 03:31:38 pm »
I too updated using the USB stick and performed a self-cal as instructed.  It now reports SW 5.1.3.13 but I now have a triggering issue.  Using the test output, I connect to Ch1 and set DC trigger at 464mV and the scope probe set to x1 with matching selection on the Ch1 menu.  As I increase the vertical sensitivity, I can get down to 200 mV/div and all is OK, then I click once more to 100 mV/div and the display goes weird - see pictures.  The horizontal time base doesn't seem to make any difference.  I'm not sure if this was there before  :-BROKE
That is the overdrive recovery you see and every DSO does that to some extend so no problem here.
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2017, 03:46:16 pm »
That is the overdrive recovery you see and every DSO does that to some extend so no problem here.
Interesting, can you please expand on that slightly? I think you're saying that the signal is actually overloading the input and that the input protection circuitry is causing what I see?
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2017, 04:17:13 pm »
That is the overdrive recovery you see and every DSO does that to some extend so no problem here.
Interesting, can you please expand on that slightly? I think you're saying that the signal is actually overloading the input and that the input protection circuitry is causing what I see?
It is not the input protection circuitry but one of the amplifiers in the input stage. In short: When you overdrive an opamp some of the transistor(s) inside get saturated and will take longer to get back into their linear operating mode. This results in the effects you see.
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Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #29 on: July 18, 2017, 05:29:45 pm »
Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.  So I agree - no bug there.  I'll go back and edit my previous post.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #30 on: July 18, 2017, 05:53:42 pm »
That is the overdrive recovery you see and every DSO does that to some extend so no problem here.
Interesting, can you please expand on that slightly? I think you're saying that the signal is actually overloading the input and that the input protection circuitry is causing what I see?

Your full scale with offset zero setting is +/- 500mV  when you are with 100mV/div
Also maximum offset range is in this case is +/- 2V   
+5V signal is too high for this setting = user error.  But good for "know your equipment" purpose and good for many readers for training.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 05:55:21 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline Loboscope

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #31 on: July 22, 2017, 01:15:21 pm »
Did anyone check, if the XY-Mode will work now fast enough as it should be and will now be useful?
I am curious about it because I want to use the XY-Mode, but currently I am in holidays and far from home, so I can not check this function by myself.
Thank´s for testing and answering!

Greetings from the Netherlands coast!

Jürgen
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #32 on: July 22, 2017, 03:29:37 pm »
Did anyone check, if the XY-Mode will work now fast enough as it should be and will now be useful?
I am curious about it because I want to use the XY-Mode, but currently I am in holidays and far from home, so I can not check this function by myself.
Thank´s for testing and answering!

Greetings from the Netherlands coast!

Jürgen

X-Y mode is not fast. As can see in image. Persistence is 5s. Just count updates.

I am always interested in everything to learn more. I have used oscilloscopes for hobby and work nearly 50 years. In some cases, old times, I have done some curve-tracker things with analog some analog oscilloscope equipped with storage crt. 

But, what is real use today for cheap scope very limited X-Y mode. I can not imagine nearly anyreal use so I want ask  -  for what?

Yes I know some peoples play and show example clock on the screen or some other things just because it is fun. But for important things, what is need for XY mode. I am interested to know. 

But here one image. Input CH1 500kHz and CH2 roughly 0.03 Hz below 1MHz
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #33 on: July 22, 2017, 04:13:42 pm »
XY mode is usefull for looking at phase changes between signals you can't see when using the scope in YT mode.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #34 on: July 22, 2017, 06:34:56 pm »
XY mode is usefull for looking at phase changes between signals you can't see when using the scope in YT mode.

Yes, some times. THis is why I still keep some bit higher quality analog oscilloscope with adjustable persistent crt.

But phase between signals and YT. Why not, in some dedicates cases.

Here two 1MHz signals. With fixed 1 degree phase shift. But as can see after long record time it do some times random 0.1 degree jumps to higher phase shift. When it do not jump phase stay quite well.  This can detect also quite fast phase shifts. Cursors spacing is roughly 1 degree with this signal. Many things are how we want do. But yes, XY mode have some advantages because it is not related to trigger and trig quality.  Analog scope is still hard to beat in some cases without truck load of money. Exept if buy phase measurement equipment or some vector...blablaa.

Typically when I adjust example frequency references I always use YT mode...just for save time and get more accuracy. Also it is nice to get some imagine about short time phase jitter (frequency jitter). Of course, the quick interpretation of the picture requires a little bit of experience as well. (I do not mean this attached image what is very simplified case  )

« Last Edit: July 22, 2017, 06:38:02 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #35 on: July 22, 2017, 06:44:18 pm »
Why would you need an analog scope? Many years ago I used XY mode on an old HP DSO (with a CRT screen) to look at sub-ppm frequency drifts to see how a PLL tracks a reference frequency.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #36 on: July 22, 2017, 09:31:07 pm »
One of the uses I have for X-Y-Mode is a very simple task for a scope (or at least it should be): In the field of musical instruction I want to show musical students the so called phenomenon "beat frequency", that is, if you detune for example a perfect fifth a bit, you will hear a more or less significant wow and flutter. For example, if you have the two frequencies 400 Hz and 600 Hz and you will detune the 600 Hz to 601 Hz you will hear this beat frequency, it will be a wailing of the sound with the resulting frequency of 1 Hz. (And 0,1 Hz at 600,1 Hz, 0,2 Hz at 600,2 Hz and so on.)
Using the X-Y-Mode of a scope will show this phenomenon simply, because the pattern on the screen will move with the frequency of 1 Hz. And seeing the phenomenon will help to identify and hear it more precise.

But if the scope will be too slow in this mode, the pattern will not move smooth, but will jump jerkily, and this will not help at all to to make the beat frequency visible. So does the 1202X-E (resp. did with the old firmware as I could state).
Unfortunately it will be a shame for a scope with this comparatively modern and fast hardware. Even my first scope, the GW-Instek GDS 1022 manages this simple task with a smooth screen update and movement - and this is certainly one of the most basic scopes ever!
I wanted to replace this simple scope with a more modern one with a much better screen, but i this regard the Siglent seems to fail completely  >:(

By the way, this is not the only task for that I will use a scope. I am musician and I will use it also for maintaining and in case it fails my technical gear. But  the task I described above is a very useful task in my educational practice.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 06:09:10 am by Loboscope »
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #37 on: July 22, 2017, 09:40:14 pm »
Why would you need an analog scope? Many years ago I used XY mode on an old HP DSO (with a CRT screen) to look at sub-ppm frequency drifts to see how a PLL tracks a reference frequency.

Sub ppm... oh well. I need some times adjust freq drift in sub ppb... but this is easy. It can do even with old analog multimeter - if know how. But with enough fast scope it is more easy because also can easy see drift direction when use YT mode. And also get some imagine about possible short time phase  jitter what mostly can not detect at all with XY mode or in YT mode with slow old dso. Also here wfm/s is important. First limit is 5 to <8 bit resolution in X and Y and other limit may be slow update rate, depending scopeXY mode is decades too slow.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 06:41:59 am by rf-loop »
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #38 on: July 23, 2017, 08:35:19 am »
One of the uses I have for X-Y-Mode is a very simple task for a scope (or at least it should be): In the field of musical instruction I want to show musical students the so called phenomenon "beat frequency", that is, if you detune for example a perfect fifth a bit, you will hear a more or less significant wow and flutter. For example, if you have the two frequencies 400 Hz and 600 Hz and you will detune the 600 Hz to 601 Hz you will hear this beat frequency, it will be a wailing of the sound with the resulting frequency of 1 Hz. (And 0,1 Hz at 600,1 Hz, 0,2 Hz at 600,2 Hz and so on.)
Using the X-Y-Mode of a scope will show this phenomenon simply, because the pattern on the screen will move with the frequency of 1 Hz. And seeing the phenomenon will help to identify and hear it more precise.

But if the scope will be too slow in this mode, the pattern will not move smooth, but will jump jerkily, and this will not help at all to to make the beat frequency visible. So does the 1202X-E (resp. did with the old firmware as I could state).
Unfortunately it will be a shame for a scope with this comparatively modern and fast hardware. Even my first scope, the GW-Instek GDS 1022 manages this simple task with a smooth screen update and movement - and this is certainly one of the most basic scopes ever!
I wanted to replace this simple scope with a more modern one with a much better screen, but i this regard the Siglent seems to fail completely  >:(

By the way, this is not the only task for that I will use a scope. I am musician and I will use it also for maintaining and in case it fails my technical gear. But  the task I described above is a very useful task in my educational practice.

Siglent XY mode looks like it is not at all true XY mode.
 It looks like it is derived from bacround running YT mode (without history buffer).  If it is (and I believe it is).  This may explain why in XY mode there can also do full set of automatic measurements, includind also phase-angle what really is not measured from screen memory, as also example risetime etc. ERES works, wfm average works. (also trigger works )  For build whole XY display it need use lot of YT acquisitions. This is perhaps reason what makes it some slow. Some good, some bad.

Images have same signal. First XY mode and then YT mode.
It can see that it keep same measurement resolution in both modes. With this setting, 7M memory and 500MSa/s XY update speed is quite slow. Roughly in 1 second class.

Of course if this scope do real XY plot from ADC directly to display map memory  it can be very fast. nearly like analog scope without ADC resolution and noise limits.

What I hope is that Siglent add also fast true XY mode. Yes then loose some things but get high speed and perhaps can add even intensity gradation(?).






(my mistake, in this image cursors irrelevant)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2017, 08:45:59 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2017, 09:17:38 am »
Bugs Summary

3. There's a menu item for 50 Ohm/1 Meg Ohm and it doesn't do anything


As discussed previously this input internal impedance selection need delete. (no 50ohm HW inside)

Also discused that it need keep in some place so that user can tell to scope that he is using extrernal termination. This is important for example FFT dBm measurements.


They did it it in last FW update. They did more what was asked.

There is now free selection for externally added terminator/load impedance.

RF work mostly is used 50ohm impedance. But also others are some times used.

But then example audio things looks like use many kind of impedances, one common is 600ohm.

For serve all needs, user can now set impedance of termination what he is using in scope input externally.
Adjusting range is from 1 ohm to 1 Meg ohm.

But now, user need understand it and take care about is so that setting is right. Remember set/check value is ok before measurements for avoid wrong measurement results.

When you are in FFT menu, Page 2.  Adjusting menu opens when you select Unit/Load. There you can select Unit: dBVrms, Vrms, dBm.  There you can adjust ExtLoad 1ohm  to 1Meg ohm.  (1 - 99 ohm step 1ohm, 100 to 1000 ohm 10 ohm steps, 1k to 10k 0.1k steps etc)

Well done Siglent!

but, woks need continue....
« Last Edit: July 24, 2017, 09:21:50 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2017, 09:36:02 am »
New FW5.1.3.13 changes many things in FW. I am quite sure that published changelog do not include all fixes what they have done in FW. Only some visible and major things.

wfm/s update speeds have changed more or less but still "up to" max peak speed is 100kwfm/s - but motre important continuous average speed bit slower now in some cases but also then some positive things. Somehow dots-lines-sinc on/off is hadled now bit differently. Also waveform fine adjust to interpolated trigger positioninside sample interval is - well, they have least one perfectionist in team. (as perhaps all know inside 1ns sample period there need interpolation, linear or sinc and where this iterpolated curve or a straight line crosses trig level then this position need adjust to trigger time position and there interval os 20ps.)
But, as many times noted, wfm/s speed is not all we need. There is many other things, one is also fact that many times oscilloscopes hide part of captured length outside and because they are there unvisible it may some times even seriously rise visual blind time ratio. This do not happen at all in Siglent, never.

But, here is new table for SDS1202X-E (HW 0c-01)  FW 5.1.3.13 Old table, if it still exist in some place,  is valid only for FW5.1.3.8.  (Yes I leaked it before 1.8.  if final check I find some error - I hope not.  If someone else find  some error or fatal error there, please fast feedback time constant )


Table
All measurements done using oscilloscope watching trig out AND HP53131A connected also to Trig Out. Manual trig mode and gate time 3s for enough reliable results. Slowest times gate time doubled.


Trig out with other scope for look speed peak values ( what are not really important at all).

Sequence speed is low in fastest time bases. But there is really not any single reason for use 1 or 2ns/div when 2 channels are in use or 1 - 5ns/div if 1 channel is in use if need more speed in sequence mode. This is because same max amount of segments still available with better speed and in segments view mode (History viewer) there can use window zoom or whole screen zoom if want.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2017, 11:13:58 am by rf-loop »
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Offline eurofox

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2017, 12:38:40 pm »
I have a silly question, I build up my lab again.   :wtf:

My last scope was a 1 GHz recent Agilent scope sold to a member of this forum.

Since I start again with some DC applications and microcontrollers I need a decent scope.  :popcorn:

I would like to have some feedback from users of this Siglent 200 MHz scope with serial decoding if it is really a “decent” scope to work with?  :palm:
eurofox
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2017, 02:43:40 pm »
I have a silly question, I build up my lab again.   :wtf:

My last scope was a 1 GHz recent Agilent scope sold to a member of this forum.

Since I start again with some DC applications and microcontrollers I need a decent scope.  :popcorn:

I would like to have some feedback from users of this Siglent 200 MHz scope with serial decoding if it is really a “decent” scope to work with?  :palm:

If you live in Finland you can come visit and test and test with your applications and then you see if it pass for your needs. 
If you have known specified personal needs only way is that you personally test with your special nees.  You never know other peoples opinions how and what they have exactly done. Every people and every need is different.

You live in Belgium. Why you do not use Batronix 30 days free trial period if you can not walk to place where you can test it before buy.  Local seller who have enouh knowledge how to use equipment is best way. Because without knowledge it takes some days before find right way to use equipment for some defined needs. If not, next solution is use these sellers who can offer free test period beforew buy. 
Batronix is one well known and trusted dealer  for Siglent equipments.


If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline eurofox

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2017, 02:58:53 pm »
I have a silly question, I build up my lab again.   :wtf:

My last scope was a 1 GHz recent Agilent scope sold to a member of this forum.

Since I start again with some DC applications and microcontrollers I need a decent scope.  :popcorn:

I would like to have some feedback from users of this Siglent 200 MHz scope with serial decoding if it is really a “decent” scope to work with?  :palm:

If you live in Finland you can come visit and test and test with your applications and then you see if it pass for your needs. 
If you have known specified personal needs only way is that you personally test with your special nees.  You never know other peoples opinions how and what they have exactly done. Every people and every need is different.

You live in Belgium. Why you do not use Batronix 30 days free trial period if you can not walk to place where you can test it before buy.  Local seller who have enouh knowledge how to use equipment is best way. Because without knowledge it takes some days before find right way to use equipment for some defined needs. If not, next solution is use these sellers who can offer free test period beforew buy. 
Batronix is one well known and trusted dealer  for Siglent equipments.

Thank you for your invitation to your country, I visit it many times on business trips a few times on a vacation trips.

I suppose you are a professional with electronics, are you satisfied with it? Does it fulfill your needs?

The only Chinese made oscilloscope that I use is a Rigol 100 MHz, is not Keysight or R&S but is OK, is not the same price tag.

Thanks in advance for taking the time commenting on this instrument “satisfaction”
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2017, 05:34:44 am »
Some discussion on pimping your SDS1202X-E with SDS2000X knobs:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/new-knobs/
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2017, 07:40:58 am »
New FW5.1.3.13 changes many things in FW. I am quite sure that published changelog do not include all fixes what they have done in FW. Only some visible and major things.
You are correct, not all changes are listed in the changelog.

Auto firmware updates feature has been removed completely.
This feature was to allow online updates of firmware directly to the scope........no unzipping or USB stick required.



To use this auto-update was quite simple, in I/O settings the DHCP need be turned on to auto negotiate an IP address and then in the FW update UI the Online update set to Status ON. (OFF by default)

Within a second or two the X-E contacts the Siglent server and updates the screen with the status of the FW available, see below.



With only an older pre-release version available and not the latest V5.1.3.13 one can only imagine Siglent have for the time being abandoned online FW updates.  :-//



As mentioned previously and as stated in the firmware update instructions the SDS1202X-E must be self calibrated after the firmware is installed to remove the channel offsets.
This is how far from 0V the trace can be after FW installation.



After Self Cal has been run:


« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 10:03:02 am by tautech »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2017, 08:41:44 am »
This is important to know!

If user do Security Erase, it also affect self cal produced cal data!

After Security Erase, it still use ok cal data as long as you do not shut off it. Next time when start scope it is now totally out of cal without any warning! But if user do not know it and just believe what he see on screen it may be more or less false.
Siglent need solve this thing way or other. Least it need information message on the scope screen about this.

After SecurityErase it NEED do self cal.

My recommendation is: If Security Erase have done, please immediately after it shut off and back on, Wait enough components get again thermal balance and do Self Calibration (it takes nearly 8 minutes).
If cold scope started, it need over 30min warming. If just warm scope rebooted ... well least minute or two. If you do not it just after SecErase it is easy to forget.

Also because some times we can see failed or poor calibs..  It need remember that nothing is conneted to inputs when run self cal.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2017, 08:45:33 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Loboscope

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #47 on: August 01, 2017, 02:12:43 pm »
Back from holidays I loaded the new firmware (without any problems) and I tested the X/Y-Mode myself.
Unfortunately as mentioned already by @rf-loop I had to realize, that the X/Y-Mode is still too slow and the trace jumps jerkily. It seems to be a bit faster as before, but still only twitchy and not continuous - sad  :(.
The Rigol DS1104Z does better (but also a bit twitchy), the best remains my old and super-simple GW-Instek GDS-1022!
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #48 on: August 07, 2017, 10:41:38 am »
Anyone out there with suspect "not quite right" probes ?

As I now unbox and install new firmware into each unit before dispatch and now have to run the Self Cal to negate the 0V offset, I use some time waiting for the unit to fully warm up to compensate the probes and fit the coloured rings to indicate the channel #.
I had one probe today that would not compensate correctly, it was impossible to obtain a nice clean square edge along with a nice flat top.  :rant:
Probe swap as a sanity check only proved the probe was crook.





Siglent will replace it with a warranty claim but IMHO their probe supplier QC is substandard.  >:(
« Last Edit: August 07, 2017, 10:43:29 am by tautech »
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #49 on: August 07, 2017, 03:39:40 pm »
@ tautech, lets hope they do not use same kind  source what  Keyshit for cheap probes. All things must not copy.



Back from holidays I loaded the new firmware (without any problems) and I tested the X/Y-Mode myself.
Unfortunately as mentioned already by @rf-loop I had to realize, that the X/Y-Mode is still too slow and the trace jumps jerkily. It seems to be a bit faster as before, but still only twitchy and not continuous - sad  :(.
The Rigol DS1104Z does better (but also a bit twitchy), the best remains my old and super-simple GW-Instek GDS-1022!

Trace do not jump jerkily if it is used for speeds what it can do.
As told previously it looks like it is not made as fast XY plotter can do with this HW. If they do it, it can be faster than both you named.

But, this looks like it works like normal YT behind XY screen. XY screen is perhaps then derived from these waveforms in acq memory.

What this can do is thing what your bit named scopes can not.
Sigglent can do full resolution measurements in XY mode.
Signal in image is horizontally CH1 60.000001kHz sine and CH2 60.000000kHz pulses. Pulse width 25ns and rise and fall time around 7ns. In picture phase was without reason around 180 degree slowly walking due to freq difference.

Lets hope Siglent is kind and add some day user selectable fast XY plotter so that peoples can plot images and clocks on the screen. ;)  But perhaps first some other new tool functions. Now there is brute force inside box for do some....
Here on the screen this measurement in XY. Of course due to slow 500MSa/s it can only 2ns resolution.

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #50 on: August 10, 2017, 02:25:00 pm »
Finally it fulfill my need and I just order one together with a SDG2042X  :-+
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #51 on: August 10, 2017, 11:10:06 pm »
@ tautech, lets hope they do not use same kind  source what  Keyshit for cheap probes. All things must not copy.

Any update on that Keysight probe BTW? I haven't followed the forum for 2 weeks, and could not see an update about it in the Keysight 1000X thread :)
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #52 on: August 20, 2017, 09:23:36 pm »
I just updated to the new firmware (5.1.3.13), coming from 5.1.3.8

Two bugs which I have reported have indeed been fixed (measurements wrong with 10x probe, and FFT/zoom/cursor)  :-+

Other changes I noticed which are not in the release notes are:

- FFT, display mode average, changing the vertical change (db/div) changes the display instantaneously instead of slowly
- FFT, much lower Hz/div (horizontal scale) are now possible
- FFT, more pixels per bin (horizontal scale) are now possible which makes reading easier, with low number of Hz/div
- FFT, display mode average seems faster, but I am not sure about this

 :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+

<edit>
- screendump is now created in a separate PNG folder on the USB stick, not in the root of the stick
« Last Edit: August 20, 2017, 10:33:37 pm by kvd »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #53 on: August 21, 2017, 07:36:32 am »
I just updated to the new firmware (5.1.3.13), coming from 5.1.3.8

Two bugs which I have reported have indeed been fixed (measurements wrong with 10x probe, and FFT/zoom/cursor)  :-+

Other changes I noticed which are not in the release notes are:

- FFT, display mode average, changing the vertical change (db/div) changes the display instantaneously instead of slowly
- FFT, much lower Hz/div (horizontal scale) are now possible
- FFT, more pixels per bin (horizontal scale) are now possible which makes reading easier, with low number of Hz/div
- FFT, display mode average seems faster, but I am not sure about this

 :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+

<edit>
- screendump is now created in a separate PNG folder on the USB stick, not in the root of the stick

Yes, I have seen it many times with Siglent (and not only with Siglent) that changelog is not at all full list of every single  changes.

Let us hope that some day they make some changes for better useability in some details in UI.
One what I hope is zoom windows. Now with zoom display is divided half. THis is not optimum imho. Zoomed window is priority one what user want look when he zoom in. So this need get more vertical room in display.

Then, let us hope that some day user can select if scope do AutoRoll when change from 20ms/div to 50ms/div or slower. There need be least some selection in menu where user can select of autoroll is on or off. This AutoRoll is some times very frustrating.

Then let us hope that user can force scope to full memory acquisition also with fast time bases for some special needs for some rare technical reasons or just as for psychological reasons.
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #54 on: August 21, 2017, 07:54:25 am »
Then let us hope that user can force scope to full memory acquisition also with fast time bases for some special needs for some rare technical reasons or just as for psychological reasons.

This is essentially same as "horizontal zoom" without splitting window. So they should implement either this or that, if implement both - becomes quite confusing for user and puzzle for GUI dude.
I would rather vote for horizontal zoom. It is better than to fiddle with mem setting because you always know what is total time window captured - not so obvious when fiddling with mem setting.
Also with horizontal zoom you can drop/raise sample rate by changing mem on the fly, but retain exact same timebase/zoom state.
Edit: most logical to implement would be some fast option to minimize splitting window to "navigation ribbon" much like one on "full mem ack" scopes. If no room for soft min/max button maybe could be done with some push&rotate at the same time action with knob. Or maybe "double push" much like double click with mouse invokes another command.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 08:32:51 am by MrW0lf »
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #55 on: August 21, 2017, 10:26:45 am »
Hi guys, did you know that you can take an FFT spectrum of a one time event? I didn't know that, but see the picture. This is a dampened oscillation captured with a single shot trigger.

I wish that in the recent firmware update Siglent had changed the fact that the data on the FFT spectrum is always in purple, which happens to be the color of channel 2. I would rather see the color of the channel source of the FFT, ie. yellow for 1, purple for 2.

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #56 on: August 21, 2017, 01:44:31 pm »
Then let us hope that user can force scope to full memory acquisition also with fast time bases for some special needs for some rare technical reasons or just as for psychological reasons.

This is essentially same as "horizontal zoom" without splitting window. So they should implement either this or that, if implement both - becomes quite confusing for user and puzzle for GUI dude.

Now I drop totally out.

Perhaps I have not explained it like bending from hard wire or what is now missing?

Please tell me what you mean with "either this or that".

And what confusion? T&M instruments are not for monkeys. These need even some education, exept who use these just as toys for playing.

I use nearly every day digitral oscilloscpe what have normal full screen horizontal "zoom" and window zoom. And it is implemented in many many oscilloscopes, in history, now and in future. But as we know Siglent do not this.  Siglent adjust acquisition length when you change t/div. User can not force it for use manually selected longer memory.

How we name these selections is other thing.

But I make example using Siglent SDS1202X-E

Set t/div to 10us/div.
And you have selected memory maximum limit for 1.4M.  (Siglent memory selection is maximum LIMIT)
Now oscilloscope itself select automatically 140k length. (because this length can keep 1GSa/s  14div length) and this is also exactly what is display width.
Ok now you can also window zoom using in zoom window more fast timebase. Or if stop oscilloscope can also do full screen zoom in but not out because there is nothing outside of screen with original time base.

This all is how it works now.

Case B.
But, in some cases, some user may want that even if he use 10us/div (just this single example case) he still want full available memory lenght acquisitions. Force memory to 14M (or some other values how user need).

Also now he can use window zoom for zoom in running scope some details with faster time base than 10us/div.
Just as previously and how it works now.

But now there is outside of screen lot of acquisition length.
When user use this kind of scope and not used window zoom we cans ay that he is looking full screen zoom, he look just small narrow slice from hole capture length. And THIS is in many oscilloscopes. You can see it in Rigol, in old HP, in Keyshit, Owon, Tektronix, and so on.  This IS full window zoom. Whern they change time base with enough long memory what happend. Only window is more and more narrow part of whole length. Acquisition itself stay same.
But, why do not implement auto memory, memory low limit, memory minimum limit.

Also it can implement so that even with window zoom in case B there can do some extra and make possible to zoom out from upper screen original time base setting. In lower zoom window is then possible to zoom in and out up to full memory length. Just so that tool can be more flexible for different needs and also in some cases it may speed up working with scope in live working situation where time is money.

Think scope what have 1k memory and 1GSa/s. Display 10 div. Time base set for 1ns/div.
What is display zoom factor to this whole length. THis is full window zoom working principle. Used in many scopes in history, now and future. In Siglent case automemory reject memory to 10 data points. Ok this is enough. Also other scope display 10 dayta points long part when it run. Similar.  But this other scope show 100X full window zoom. Didsplay show 1% length when it is running. Do you now realize what is full window zoom. This can add to Siglent and user can select this mode if he really need it, of not then automemory.
In some cases we want limit memory length. Example for fast sequence acq. Or for make possible to keep more trigged events in history buffer limiited memory.

Other thing is how to arrange UI and name things so that user do not drop to confused. If user do not understand how to use tools then he can buy more simple machines.


If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #57 on: August 21, 2017, 01:52:33 pm »
Hi guys, did you know that you can take an FFT spectrum of a one time event? I didn't know that, but see the picture. This is a dampened oscillation captured with a single shot trigger.

I wish that in the recent firmware update Siglent had changed the fact that the data on the FFT spectrum is always in purple, which happens to be the color of channel 2. I would rather see the color of the channel source of the FFT, ie. yellow for 1, purple for 2.

As told many times, FFT and other math  and measurements can use for every single acquisition. Example if have dome sequence acquistion every segment can use for FFT etc. Also if just stop scope and look history, same, you can use FFT etc for every sigle capture you find there.  Also you can play this history backward or forward with selected speed and use FFT analyze, enough slow speed in playback and it can do FFT math for every segment.

Let us hope that some day we get some things for select some things colors what are now not optimal. Also need take care about peoples who have some problems with eyes including color detection.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline MrW0lf

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #58 on: August 21, 2017, 02:03:29 pm »
User can not force it for use manually selected longer memory.
How we name these selections is other thing.

And why you should select longer capture with longer memory, while keeping wrong timebase? Want longer capture spec longer capture length in time (or in memory but then timebase should change!) After all scopes are mostly for time domain analysis.
What Siglent is missing is non-split screen (horizontal) zoom, thats all. Concept of steering capture length with some secondary entity (memory length), while keeping timebase constant is perhaps convention and you are used to it but if you look at bigger picture it is not optimal. So Siglent did it right and is just missing small feature of full-screen zoom.
In fact you were defending "Siglent way" not long time ago. No need to flap like leaf in wind. Stick to you guns no need get all soft here.
And if its not clear yes its same thing technically (common vs Siglent way) but there is difference how you name it or build GUI on top of it.

Edit: I give you example from AD2 GUI that is made by people who clearly took logic classes in school:
Control is called "Time". Three fields are tied together: Base, Samples, Rate.
Suppose set Samples to 2k and Base to 1ms. Then it will pick suitable Rate of 2MSa/s. If pick another Rate it will pick suitable Base. At all times Base = Samples * Rate and represented in GUI as such. As option Base can be represented as conventional time/div also.
With "conventional" scope it is of course same internally but represented in GUI ass-inside-out with Base != Samples * Rate in case of fiddling with mem.




« Last Edit: August 21, 2017, 02:37:48 pm by MrW0lf »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #59 on: August 21, 2017, 03:12:00 pm »
User can not force it for use manually selected longer memory.
How we name these selections is other thing.

And why you should select longer capture with longer memory, while keeping wrong timebase? Want longer capture spec longer capture length in time (or in memory but then timebase should change!) After all scopes are mostly for time domain analysis.
What Siglent is missing is non-split screen (horizontal) zoom, thats all. Concept of steering capture length with some secondary entity (memory length), while keeping timebase constant is perhaps convention and you are used to it but if you look at bigger picture it is not optimal. So Siglent did it right and is just missing small feature of full-screen zoom.
In fact you were defending "Siglent way" not long time ago. No need to flap like leaf in wind. Stick to you guns no need get all soft here.
And if its not clear yes its same thing technically (common vs Siglent way) but there is difference how you name it or build GUI on top of it.

Edit: I give you example from AD2 GUI that is made by people who clearly took logic classes in school:
Control is called "Time". Three fields are tied together: Base, Samples, Rate.
Suppose set Samples to 2k and Base to 1ms. Then it will pick suitable Rate of 2MSa/s. If pick another Rate it will pick suitable Base. At all times Base = Samples * Rate and represented in GUI as such. As option Base can be represented as conventional time/div also.
With "conventional" scope it is of course same internally but represented in GUI ass-inside-out with Base != Samples * Rate in case of fiddling with mem.



All what is there already done and implemented is just Siglent way and it is ok and of course this need not change.
But this is good example what happend when try explain fast and with quite poor language with tiny simplified dictinary.
So I give hands up and not loose time for try explain it here what advantages can ADD there, not change what is there now. Exept bit grinding and finishing some UI things for better ergonomy and usability. 

Equipments need develop and make better and better and it is endless process. Nothing is fully ready, never. This is what I hope  and I believe this is also what Siglent want. Period.

There is now automemory with user selected maximum limit.
There can add also user selected FIXED memory length.

But then, when there is Fixed memory length there can add one extra feature to windowed zoom but for avoid misunderstoodings I leave this out from this. Too many things at once looks like produce misunderstoodings. Is is so that human brain is just serial prosessing unit and can not run many threads parallel.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline MrW0lf

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #60 on: August 21, 2017, 11:55:54 pm »
Think scope what have 1k memory and 1GSa/s. Display 10 div. Time base set for 1ns/div.
What is display zoom factor to this whole length. THis is full window zoom working principle. Used in many scopes in history, now and future. In Siglent case automemory reject memory to 10 data points. Ok this is enough. Also other scope display 10 dayta points long part when it run. Similar.  But this other scope show 100X full window zoom. Didsplay show 1% length when it is running. Do you now realize what is full window zoom. This can add to Siglent and user can select this mode if he really need it, of not then automemory.
In some cases we want limit memory length. Example for fast sequence acq. Or for make possible to keep more trigged events in history buffer limiited memory.

Use case described is probably pictured below. 1ns/ is achieved by zoom into 1us record. Important thing here is that total record length in time is governed by timebase control, not by memory setting. It would be improvement if timebase control could [optionally] display total length (1us) like on AD2, then simple Jack does not need to multiply by 10.



On some other scope similar would be achieved if set main timebase to 1ns/ and mem to same 1k, not zoom at all. However total record length in time nowhere written on screen and less trivial to calculate than multiply by number of divs, or just read number, like with AD2.

Initially it seemed you want Siglent to implement "other scope" case, which is IMHO step back. Step forward would be leaving main timebase to govern record length (s) and think zoom logic thru.






« Last Edit: August 22, 2017, 12:19:08 am by MrW0lf »
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #62 on: September 04, 2017, 05:44:37 am »
Recent -3dB point check using freshly acquired HP 500 MHz sig gen.

10 mV source signal, BNC connection through Tek 1:1 50 ohm BNC inline feedthrough.
Slight discrepancy in frequency measurements but despite this indicates the -3dB point is ~240 MHz.
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Offline MrW0lf

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #63 on: September 07, 2017, 12:27:27 pm »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #64 on: September 07, 2017, 12:31:22 pm »


 :-DD

Oh, you foreigners.
 
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #65 on: September 08, 2017, 12:47:09 am »
Hello,

the man in the video speaks a very understandable English :)

He has other very interesting videos.

Best regards

egonotto

 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #66 on: September 08, 2017, 08:25:56 am »
So, PLEASE put us out of our misery, was it Top or Flop?  I listened to the video and the only words I understood were 'so' and 'wunderbar'
If at first you don't succeed, get a bigger hammer
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #67 on: September 22, 2017, 01:50:16 pm »
He did not actually mention the word 'top' as such but all of his comments were very positive  :-+
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #68 on: October 11, 2017, 08:09:20 pm »
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #69 on: November 21, 2017, 08:12:55 am »
A zero poster PM'ed me for some screenshots of FFT in the FM band so I've conjured these together from a HP sig gen externally modulated at 20 KHz at 105 MHz.
Timebase settings influence the settings available in/for FFT mode however with some fiddling we are able to display the fundamental harmonics and sidebands.





Hope he finds these useful.
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2018, 09:49:01 am »
New firmware for the SDS1202X-E

Version: v5.1.3.17R1
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4072&tid=15
5.9 Mb

Changelog
Fixed bug: Sometimes Auto setup fails on probe compensation output
1.Fixed bug: Corrected under-compensation from probe compensation waveform on 100 mV/div ranges
2.Fixed bug: FFT horizontal frequency div is wrong. The wrong sequence is shown: 5 Hz, 2 Hz, 1 Hz, 2 Hz, 5 Hz, 100 mHz, 200 mHz
3.Optimized translation for German and English menus and pop-up messages
4.Fixed bug: The scope does not save the‘limit range’of slope trigger while powered off
5.Fixed bug: The waveform disappears from the Zoom window at the edge of screen with the timebase set to500ns/div.
6.Fixed bug: There is an issue with the Y cursor offset/scaling, probe with x10 setting. The Y1/Y2 cursor values don’t match the Y voltage division/offset of the selected input channel
7.Fixed bug: Track cursor source set to track the waveform in the zoom window, but it tracks main window
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 10:11:11 am by tautech »
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2018, 10:03:26 am »
Hello! After update freq.counter works very strange. It depends from b/w. On 20M - works fine, but on full b/w - shows some shit.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 10:10:56 am by evgen.05 »
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2018, 10:12:50 am »
Hello! After update freq.counter works very strange. It depends from b/w. On 20M - works fine, but on full b/w - shows some shit.
Did you perform the Self Cal after updating ?
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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2018, 10:13:42 am »
Hello! After update freq.counter works very strange. It depends from b/w. On 20M - works fine, but on full b/w - shows some shit.
Did you perform the Self Cal after updating ?
ofcource

Well, after freeze and hard reboot(put off cable from main) freq.counter works fine too. Very strange.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2018, 11:16:28 am by evgen.05 »
 
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Offline evgen.05

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #74 on: February 08, 2018, 06:26:01 am »
Hello! Who knows what is new option "Utility->page4->Reference Position-> Vertical fixed position and Horisontal fixed delay? Before update these options were absent. Tried them on and off - nothing happened
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #75 on: February 08, 2018, 07:55:07 am »
Hello! Who knows what is new option "Utility->page4->Reference Position-> Vertical fixed position and Horisontal fixed delay? Before update these options were absent. Tried them on and off - nothing happened

They are least partially explained here by @Performa01
(This is for 4 channel models but as we know 2 channel models are very similar in many basic things)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds1104x-e-in-depth-review/msg1371771/#msg1371771

And in this thread 1. message there is downloadable pdf. In this part 1 he explain it.
SDS1104X-E Review 01.pdf

In practice after user have learned and adapted to use these features then can feel that how we can live without these.

Tiny example (vertical)
You are looking example DC power supply ripple. Without this feature (fixed offset) always if you change vertical V/div scale you need adjust vertical position because this signal (ripple on DC) position on the screen change because your "zero" is in fixed position. With some settings you need really adjust until your fingers fatigue.  But with fixed offset voltage,  changing  V/div setting it (ripple signal riding on this DC) stay in fixed offset voltage on the screen without need adjust position if change V/div.

Exercise:

Take 1.5V DC. Connect it to input and input coupling mode DC (if use AC you can not see low freq ripple/variables, 1/f noise)
Probe 1X
Push position for zero to center line (if it is not allready)
Set input for 500mV/div
You see DC line 3 div up from 0 line.
Now you want look this DC more deeply for ripple etc.
Go to utility menu 4/4 and there select "Reference Pos"
Then select "Vertical, Fixed Offset"
After then select what menu you next want go or stay there.
Now turn vertical "Position" knob until your DC signal is middle of screen, also you see on channel display (righ side of display) there is -1.50V (offset)
Now change V/div to 200mV/div - 100 - 50 - 20 - 10 - 5 - 2 - 1mV/div
(if need push trigger position knob for "center" trig for p-p)
Next part of exercise tell why I say this: Your fingers thank and your boss also thanks because you can do more works with less time.


Now do this same exercise next part:
do not select  "Vertical, Fixed Offset". Select "Vertical, Fixed Position"

Then also start changing V/div from 500mV to 200... now adjust vertical position so you see signal around middle of screen... then go to 100mV and again adjust.... then 50mV/div and adjust position.... then 20mV and adjust position....continue down until your fingers are tired-fatigue try continue exercise down to 1mV/div or even down to 500uV.
If you feel fingers very tired or even joints pain,  stop the exercise.

After this exercies you know it really do things and after then you do not say "it do nothing".
If you do this exerciese down to 500uV/div perfectly all steps you remember this setting and know how useful it is your rest life.
;)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 08:03:56 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Siglent America

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #76 on: February 08, 2018, 06:55:58 pm »
Hello! Who knows what is new option "Utility->page4->Reference Position-> Vertical fixed position and Horisontal fixed delay? Before update these options were absent. Tried them on and off - nothing happened

For an explanation of the horizontal / vertical fixed position functions you can check this out:
https://www.siglentamerica.com/operating-tip/sds1000x-e-new-fixed-position-zoom/
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 07:00:01 pm by Siglent America »
 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #77 on: February 22, 2018, 08:57:36 am »
New firmware for the SDS1202X-E

Version: v5.1.3.17R1
http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=4072&tid=15
5.9 Mb
Maybe you remember that I pointed out some serial decoding problems. After updating the firmware I have taken some samples in the same setup I used before, and seems decoding can still be somewhat confused.

This is not a typical RS232 link, but a RS485 bus with the Modbus protocol. That means that the idle signal doesn't have a voltage level as it happens with RS232, but it's 0 volts with all the nodes in high impedance mode.

Some samples attached. The data is not sensitive so I can supply a binary capture file if needed.

In my case this is not a show stopper but, certainly, there's room for improvement. As a matter of fact a DS1074Z from Rigol decoded perfectly in the same setup. I still trust the Siglent better because I don't like the interpolation circus in the Rigol, but it would be nice to improve the decoders a bit.

 

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2018, 11:54:42 pm »
Some audio checks with SDS1202X-E FFT from Rob's Fixit Shop:

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #79 on: September 26, 2018, 10:54:32 pm »
Important firmware update, in so much as some features in the 4ch X-E scopes have been added into the SDS1202X-E.  :clap:
At this time only the Hamburg link seems to work.  :-//

Version 1.3.23
6.36 MB

https://www.siglentamerica.com/download/7225/
https://www.siglenteu.com/download/6573/

Changelog
1. Changed the displayed system information screen. From ADS version of 1.3.23, the info screen now shows 5 sections of software versions, including the OS version ID.
2. Added SCPI commands for Math waveforms (except FFT).
3. Optimized accuracy of horizontal measurement, especially when there are only a few samples in very small timebase.
4. Added ability to disable one direction of the full duplex encoders.
5. Any arbitrary probe factor from 1e-6 to 1e6 can be set by universal knob.
6. Attenuation and invert indicator were added into the channel tab.
7. There are some times of quick calibration during warming up the SDS XE. Added a menu below Utility to disable the quick calibration so that the sampling can’t be interrupted.
8. Added SCPI to set up gated measurements on an SDS XE scope and return the data.
9. Supported exiting the on-screen keyboard by OK button.
10. Fixed the bug related to displaying long IC2 decoded packets.
11. Fixed the channel inversion bug when changing timebase from 1ms to 2ms
12. Fixed the bug: The setting of Educational mode can’t be saved after power off.
13. Fixed the bug: I2C address to 0x3F and the fist byte to 0x8C -trigger does not work
14. Fixed the bug: The I2C trigger condition "7 bit Address&Data" does not work when the payload contains only a single byte.
15. Fixed the bug: Looks like SDS1202X-E does not discard incomplete bytes in the payload although they are easily detectable.
16. Optimized decoded data of I2C and got rid of suffix ‘H’ and ‘A’.
17. Fixed the bug: There is offset with Channel coupling of GND.
18. Fixed the bug of failing to save Pass/Fail mask to U disk.
19. Fixed the bug: Save data as CSV , but the data does not account for the vertical offset of the data.
20. Fixed the bug: The binary block returned by the WAVEFORM command contains the length of the block in the “#9” header. This length is incorrect when the NP option of the WFSU command is used; the header then gives the memory depth instead of the actual size of the block.
21. Fixed the bug of response from the WAVEFORM command prefixes the binary block with the string "ALL," even when "CHDR OFF" is used.
22. Optimize self-calibration for channels.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2018, 06:51:19 pm by tautech »
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Offline borjam

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #80 on: September 27, 2018, 03:05:26 pm »
Important firmware update, in so much as some features in the 4ch X-E scopes have been added into the SDS1202X-E.  :clap:
At this time only the Hamburg link seems to work.  :-//
Now they require user registration for the Siglent.com website.

The funny thing is, this is the first time in 10? years I've been asked to provide personal information in a non encrypted website.


 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #81 on: September 27, 2018, 03:22:40 pm »
Important firmware update, in so much as some features in the 4ch X-E scopes have been added into the SDS1202X-E.  :clap:
At this time only the Hamburg link seems to work.  :-//
Now they require user registration for the Siglent.com website.

The funny thing is, this is the first time in 10? years I've been asked to provide personal information in a non encrypted website.

Funny thing is that you try use Asian Headquarters web side. Our EU region side do not work? As far as I know Spain is inside EU.
Why you do not use  Siglent European region official web side? It do not ask anything.
https://www.siglenteu.com/

Then also, even if you use side what ask your personal things... you can be example Mr Donald Duck or Mr John Smith  and your email can be example msnobodyorsome097549083746598@gmail.com or what ever...
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Harmony OS
 

Offline borjam

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #82 on: September 27, 2018, 03:30:58 pm »
Important firmware update, in so much as some features in the 4ch X-E scopes have been added into the SDS1202X-E.  :clap:
At this time only the Hamburg link seems to work.  :-//
Now they require user registration for the Siglent.com website.

The funny thing is, this is the first time in 10? years I've been asked to provide personal information in a non encrypted website.

Funny thing is that you try use Asian Headquarters web side. Our EU region side do not work? As far as I know Spain is inside EU.
Why you do not use  Siglent European region official web side? It do not ask anything.
https://www.siglenteu.com/
Gosh, you are right!

I went to siglent.eu and it was a dealer. I didn't remember the siglenteu.com domain.

A bit confusing with domain names, anyway.

Thanks!
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Summary Siglent SDS1202X-E Thread
« Reply #83 on: September 27, 2018, 03:43:04 pm »
Yes, siglent.eu  and siglenteu.com  makes lot of confusion. You are not alone with this.
Personally I do not understand why siglent.eu try create an impression about official Siglent.  Even if they are not directly lying but too easily the impression is that they are Siglent.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Harmony OS
 


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