The attempt of a Micsig (A/S)TO11xx general purpose thread ... :-)

[Pfriemler]

Great work, good suggestions. I subscribe to all of them - also the comments in the last post. (In fact, even now I miss more features (compared to other scopes) I thought.)

1) bad red-on-black contrast ist even more difficult with the screen protector on. Meanwhile, I had a 3rd MicSig here for some hours ( .. not my fault ). My old UNI-T has that red in Math, too, barely readable. Please, do something!
2) yes!
3) would be the first measurement with two values, but in fact it's only one with two different units. What's the use of separate these two values at all?
4) missed when checking a power supply, workaround with a second channel and AC coupling. Does not work when DC level changes. So yes, please!
5) yes, yes, and yes.
6) CSV not missed yet, but a really easy and nice to have.

7) Fungus, the screen lock is your 7th suggestion ... remember the

Don't try to accidentally put the focus on something else on the screen.

... or move a channel ... :-)

Relating to my point A6 and to Fungus question in

Can we install our own apps? That would be a great help.

Really "own"? i.e. 100% self-written&compiled or rather 3rd party apps? two things:
a) some other apps may affect/disturb the scope app in a undefined way with background activities
b) rights management/licensing: As Fungus said, avoiding the Google app store is a probably good idea. Some apps rely on licensing checks via Google Play store and will not work without access. But there are tons of fine, small and really free apps at the F-Droid market, avoiding strange or intransparent background activities.
c) The Amazon firesticks had the "sideload" way to install non-market apps. The Micsigs allow to install apps from USB devices, too. But it looks like they are accepting only "signed" apps. Will Migsic open this? 
d) for me, there's no need to install ANY 3rd party app. Only a few that will do a missing job (like file synchronizing) or better (PDF reader, calculator, electronics tool) will be ok. I think, of all thousands of available apps a selection of maybe two dozens will do, just put them to the Micsig app market - the permission of the authors to do so is maybe easy to get especially for the F-Droid ones.

[Pfriemler]

Question: What is wrong here?
As I said initially, my actual MicSig is the second due to the fact that the first one was instable and freezed often. In comparision with the mentioned #3 I confirmed that my #2 has a strange bootup delay. The first did start fast like the #3rd. So why there's that annoying delay? 
Times are taken from a bootup video, in seconds (I did this several times, but the results are almost the same):
+8 "MicSig" changes to animated logo
+21 #3 Android desktop appears
+23 #2 Android desktop appears
+27 #3 0 Smart Oscilloscope starts
+31 #3 +4 relay klicks
+34 #3 +7 Scope is running   <--- 10 seconds more compared to a Siglent SDS1104X-E 
+41 #2 0 Smart Oscilloscope starts
+45 #2 +4 relay klicks
+48 #2 +7 Scope is running   <--- 10 seconds less compared to a RIGOL MSO5xxxx

Both scopes start with (nearly) the same speed to the desktop. The #3 scope app auto start is 4 seconds after the desktop, 34 seconds from button to work. But my #2 scope app autostart is delayed by additional 14 seconds. WiFi on/off does not change this. Service desk on Batronix had no idea, too.

@MicSig: Was is my scope waiting for at start?

[Fungus]

Really "own"? i.e. 100% self-written&compiled or rather 3rd party apps?

I was thinking of things like the HP15C calculator emulator.

two things:
a) some other apps may affect/disturb the scope app in a undefined way with background activities

So don't use those apps. Uninstall them! 

[Pfriemler]

two things:
a) some other apps may affect/disturb the scope app in a undefined way with background activities

So don't use those apps. Uninstall them! 

You and me would do this first, of course. But I am not sure that every user will see a connection between a buggy app and some malfunctions of the scope before blaming MigSic for a defective device.

[offtopic]HP15C? OMG I feel 15 years younger since I do not miss such stuff 
My favourite calculator was/is a SHARP PC-1403. Still use it on my working bench.
edit: do not misunderstand. The HP15C is a great device, esp. for those who love(d) it. But in its best years there was a wall in my country and some other complications. I was very happy to get the Sharp. Had a lot of BASIC progs on it, even complex numbers were possible.
Time to give the HP15C a try...
[/offtopic]

[Fungus]

[offtopic]HP15C? OMG I feel 15 years younger since I do not miss such stuff 
My favourite calculator was/is a SHARP PC-1403.
[/offtopic]

They're from the same era... 

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=o2s.emul.pc1403&hl=en_US&gl=US

[Pfriemler]

They're from the same era... 

Indeed. The HP only looks older.

back to topic: The app is not free, you have to pay before downloading. To work on other devices, it must neither check the Google account offline nor rely on an internet connection to do so. I know of very few apps where this is true. I have installed paid apps on other devices that did not work.
This is why I prefer free apps at all.

[Monty]

Purchased Micsig STO1104C.
Now the cursor function is very basic  . Micsig must add tracking and automatic cursor function. Even significantly cheaper Rigol has better cursor options.

[Monty]

Interesting thing is that you can unlock STO1104C to STO1104E quite easily by using EFT Pro and Samsung ODIN3 tool. At first you must dump oscilloscope ROM to file. Then split ROM to file system Folders and bootloader file, cut spare space and then modify files responsible for S/N number  and model parameters setting. Then you must load back to oscilloscope part of memory with modified model parameters. You can also probably able to add label function, segmented memory option from STO2000 series models, but I never tried this. So I think it does not make sense to pay more for STO1104E model. HW in model C and E is identical. Motherboards in both are the same STO1000_V5X_MB. RAM Memory is 8GB and FPGA RAM is 1GB, so no bad at all. Of course STO2000 HW is different. I think there will be somebody who will make complex tool for hacking/unlocking micsig STO1000 series features similary as with Siglent oscilloscopes.

[Monty]

Extra post for discussion:

My feature requests are:
1) Better text legibility
2) Statistics mode
3) Combine duty cycle into a single value
4) AC RMS
5) FFT improvements
6) More info in CSV files
7) Lock traces

In terms of priority, I think number (2) is the feature most people around here think is "missing" on Micsigs, eg. it came up here today. It's also very easy to implement.

After that, (4) and (5) are what would really raise the profile of the 'scope in these forums. I think I can say that many people here believe that (4) is essential in a scope.

(3) Seems trivial at first but if you implement (4) then you might need two more items in the measurement menu (AC RMS and AC CRMS) and there's only one space at the moment. Combining both pulse width measurements into a single item gives you an extra item. 

(7) Is annoying when you're trying to align cursors with the trace and you accidentally move the trace then have to go back and align the cursors again.

Definitely agree with you Fungus.

In addition my SW feature requests are:
8 ) Tracking and automatic cursor function like on cheaper Rigol or Siglent,
9) FFT Spectrum of at least of 1Mpts,
10) FFT with visible Grid scale like on Siglent (cheaper!)
11) Averaging function on FFT spectrum - very important function!
12) Separated averaging function setup for every channel,
13) Customizable channel colours and labels.

[Wintel]

STO1104C also without segmented memory option, too bad.

[Fungus]

STO1104C also without segmented memory option, too bad.

I can live without that.

Their new 2000 series has segmented memory though.

[ebastler]

My feature requests are:
1) Better text legibility
2) Statistics mode
3) Combine duty cycle into a single value
4) AC RMS
5) FFT improvements
6) More info in CSV files
7) Lock traces

Great suggestions and clear descriptions in your series of posts. But it seems you have scared MicSig away now -- maybe they did not expect quite as much engagement?

Let's assume they are busy implementing all your ideas and will report back in a few days when it's done. 

[Fungus]

Let's assume they are busy implementing all your ideas and will report back in a few days when it's done. 

I'm sure they are. 

They can gain a lot of fans by updating the firmware. Siglent is doing it very successfully here, Micsig needs to do the same, not only to fix the small issues that are keeping people from buying Micsigs but also to gain loyal fans - who doesn't want to wake up in the morning and find their oscilloscope improved since yesterday? The word of mouth (and youtube videos) generated would gain Micsig a lot of sales.

I'm a programmer myself and I don't think any of my suggestions are a lot of work compared to all the work that's already been done on the firmware (which is very well designed and polished - there's obviously some real programming talent at Micsig).

[tubos]

1) Since the STO1104 runs android , will there be risks in the future with unknown , unpatched vulnerabilities for the version used?

2) if a system update is applied that fails or bricks the device, is there a way to return to the previous version?

[nctnico]

They can gain a lot of fans by updating the firmware.

Why? It is not that there a bugs or promised features missing. Sure there is always room for improvement but in the end the MicSig scopes work as promised. Would you give away your software for free? If you want the features from the newer devices in a few years, then buy a new device.

[Fungus]

They can gain a lot of fans by updating the firmware.

Why?

As already noted, it would generate a whole load of new youtube videos, etc., what wel call "buzz".

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/msg3615904/#msg3615904

Would you give away your software for free?

I would if my business was in selling hardware to run it and I was in a market where other players do supply updates with new features.

[MustardMan]

...If you want the features from the newer devices in a few years, then buy a new device.

Disagree completely with that statement.
I would pay for software to upgrade functionality or features (non-expiring purchase: the practice of licensing firmware for any period and having it 'brick' is unacceptable in my book).

However, unless it was actually the hardware that provided the new capability (then its' a new device), I would be loathe to buy a completely new item just to get an extra icon on the screen.

[Fungus]

It would be nice if Micsig could tell us their plans now that they have a representative here... 

[Fraser]

I have a small insight into Chinese designed and produced products. From my experience, the products are developed to the point of providing the desired functionality and a decision is made to release the product to market to recover the financial investment in it. If the product has any significant bugs in its firmware, these are often addressed with a firmware release, though some companies fail to do this. The company desires recovery of investment as its first and highest priority… “sell product” becomes their focus and if the product is any good, it will sell to markets across the World. Minor bugs may still exist in the product but it is not uncommon for these to remain unresolved for a significant period of time, or even forever. Once the product has been released the associated design team often move on to a new project as their work is considered ‘done’. Firmware development is not a free activity so the company has to consider whether further development work on a product will deliver increased sales or just make the product better for current users. Sadly the maths may show that the firmware development hours are better spent on a new product that the design team have moved onto. It is not unknown for a Chinese manufacturer to respond to a bug complaint with “we will fix that in the next generation of product”. They are not trying to be unkind to current owners of their equipment, it is just the business decision to maintain new product development and associated profit. Some companies invest in a firmware and software development team that is large enough to develop firmware updates for current products as well as create firmware for new products that are under development. Those ‘legacy firmware’ staff have to be paid though so the return on that investment has to make financial sense to the companies management.

I know nothing of Micsig as a company but we need to consider how much resource they can afford to invest in a product that already delivers on its promises and sells well. “Nice to have” functions may be very important to some users but may not have significant effect on the sales of product in the marketplace. I own the ATO1102 and I find it to be a well sorted compact tablet DSO. Micsig may well be developing the next generation of tablet DSO and their firmware developers may be fully committed to that project. Such a firmware project will likely take priority over firmware updates for a product that already meets its specification and sells well.

I obviously hope that Micsig will release firmware with additional features or improvements, but I do understand if they choose not to. It is not personal, just business after all. I am very pleased to own their ATO1102 and what it offers me in terms of portability and ease of use 

[nctnico]

I have a small insight into Chinese designed and produced products. From my experience, the products are developed to the point of providing the desired functionality and a decision is made to release the product to market to recover the financial investment in it. If the product has any significant bugs in its firmware, these are often addressed with a firmware release, though some companies fail to do this. The company desires recovery of investment as its first and highest priority… “sell product” becomes their focus and if the product is any good, it will sell to markets across the World. Minor bugs may still exist in the product but it is not uncommon for these to remain unresolved for a significant period of time, or even forever.

MicSig doesn't work like that at all. When I bought my TO1104 they where very clear about what worked and which features they still planned to add. In addition to that what they claimed was finished was finished. IIRC I have not been able to find one single bug despite thourough testing. Later on MicSig did add the features which where promised and they also work as advertised. IOW: be careful with generalisations like you wrote above. They aren't always true!

[nctnico]

Would you give away your software for free?

I would if my business was in selling hardware to run it and I was in a market where other players do supply updates with new features.

Well, the fact is that the hardware costs peanuts to develop compared to the software. When you buy a piece of test equipment that needs a decent amount of software to run, you pay mostly for the software.

[ebastler]

From my experience, the products are developed to the point of providing the desired functionality and a decision is made to release the product to market

MicSig doesn't work like that at all. When I bought my TO1104 they where very clear about what worked and which features they still planned to add.

You mean, MicSig -- in contrast to what Fraser described -- intentionally released the product before it had the desired functionality? In your book, is that good or bad? 

[Fraser]

nctnico

I think you need to read  what I wrote again !

I clearly stated that from my SMALL insight into Chinese product development I saw such practices and at no point did I state that ALL Chinese manufacturers follow this development and production model. I did, however, state that I am happy with my ATO1102 and it is a well sorted product. Tell me where I made the generalisation of which you accuse me ?

Regarding the cost of hardware development ? I have no experience of this but your comments regarding firmware/software development further support the statements I made about a manufacturer needing to balance the cost of ongoing development against increased sales and resultant profit 

Fraser

[MustardMan]

... When I bought my TO1104 they where very clear about what worked and which features they still planned to add. In addition to that what they claimed was finished was finished. IIRC I have not been able to find one single bug despite thourough testing. Later on MicSig did add the features which where promised and they also work as advertised...

IE: when Micsig sold the 'scope, it MET all the parameters they advertised. Later they released an upgrade which added functionality, but the upgrade also too MET all the parameters it claimed.

Not at all like has just been suggested:

… in contrast to what Fraser described -- intentionally released the product before it had the desired functionality?...

I too have lots of things I would like the Micsig scopes to do, but understand the costs involved and the tradeoff off of time/sales. I'm hoping that (unlike many Chinese companies) Micsig sees value in continuing a good product rather than starting on a new venture: essentially building up a brand known for specialising in a product, much like Tek & LeCroy did way back when.

[Fungus]

Micsig also started giving existing owners free licenses for the serial decoders.