Author Topic: The right choice of digital oscilloscope  (Read 1806 times)

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Offline rsjsouza

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2019, 09:27:38 pm »
That is a bit of an overstatement. The decoding in the GDS-1000B series is a pure software feature. GW Instek basically uses the same firmware on a broad range of oscilloscopes. Depending on the model some features are enabled / disabled.

The first sales brochures for the GDS-1000B mentioned serial decoding (see line 9 on page 2 of this) so I'm guessing it was marketing that pulled this feature, not engineering.
We can only speculate, but I guess this was a leftover for an untested feature.
No. There is one firmware for an entire range of scopes. It is not an untested feature. It was probably left out in order not to eat too much away from the more expensive models with a bigger display OR make the device more simple for the educational market. I'm 100% sure decoding works just fine on the GDS-1054B.
The fact there is one firmware for an entire range of different platforms tells nothing new about reliability in running on the GDS1000 platform.
And all these scopes run on the same hardware platform too.  :palm: Do your homework before making assumptions. You are  trying to grasp straws which aren't there.
GDS1000, GDS2000 and GDS3000 run on the same hardware? Wow... Talk about reuse!  :-+
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Online nctnico

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2019, 10:00:09 pm »
Not quite. As far as I know the GDS1000B, GDS2000E, MDO2000E and MSO2000E series run on the same hardware platform (Xilinx Zync). They also share the same casing.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2019, 10:22:04 pm »
Not quite. As far as I know the GDS1000B, GDS2000E, MDO2000E and MSO2000E series run on the same hardware platform (Xilinx Zync). They also share the same casing.
But 1000B has only one 1GS/s A/D so at least Zynq bitstream can't be same. So I understand what your'e saying and if they keep on doing this way, it might keep on working. But it is not tested and weird side-effects might creep up in the code, and if they do, they won't be fixing it, if it only doesn't work a 1000B. I believe that is what Rjsouza wants to say and I agree.
I agree that all 2000E are IDENTICAL, and they will always work. But 1000B works only by side-effect at this point. And quite well so far.
But no guarantees..
 

Offline Paul Moir

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #28 on: September 19, 2019, 10:58:26 pm »
Do you think it's a good choice for the price?
Yes, it's a very good price scope for the price.  I love mine and paid a lot more.
Is this the best for the money?
Probably.  I can't think of anything that costs less that's better.  I'm not sure what the discussion above about more expensive oscilloscopes is all about since you didn't ask about that.
Or is it possible to obtain the same/lower price offer from other companies on a better oscilloscope?
Not regularly.  Maybe a used one or hacking a 50MHz model into something higher, but even then I think the hackable models you would want to consider cost more.  I don't think there is any 'scope cheaper than the 1202x-e that's better out of the box. 
Which companies provide lower prices for students?
Sorry, I don't know the answer to that one.
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #29 on: September 19, 2019, 11:16:58 pm »
Not quite. As far as I know the GDS1000B, GDS2000E, MDO2000E and MSO2000E series run on the same hardware platform (Xilinx Zync). They also share the same casing.
But 1000B has only one 1GS/s A/D so at least Zynq bitstream can't be same. So I understand what your'e saying and if they keep on doing this way, it might keep on working. But it is not tested and weird side-effects might creep up in the code, and if they do, they won't be fixing it, if it only doesn't work a 1000B. I believe that is what Rjsouza wants to say and I agree.
I agree that all 2000E are IDENTICAL, and they will always work. But 1000B works only by side-effect at this point. And quite well so far.
I don't agree. Just like the measurements, FFT, etc, etc decoding is a software function which is performed over the waveform data. If decoding doesn't work on the GDS1000B then none of the other features which use the waveform data will work. It is simple as that. To simplify: decoding is just a different kind of math waveform.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline JxR

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #30 on: September 20, 2019, 01:00:27 am »
Which companies provide lower prices for students?

Tektronix/Keithley give 30% discount to students, but it's handled on a case by case basis through their resellers.  Although there is really nothing compelling on the low end from Tek for a scope imho.

Rhode & Schwartz gives 25% off to universities, but only 10% off to students.

Those are the only manufacturers I know for sure that offer discounts to students across their product line.  Tequipment.net (US Reseller) offers a student discount.  Digilent also has a student discount and make a decent USB based scope.  Newark also used to provide a small student discount (5-10%). I don't know of any Siglent resellers that provide a student discount.  Your best bet is to probably try and find a local reseller in the UK that offers such a discount.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 01:07:34 am by JxR »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #31 on: September 20, 2019, 03:35:23 am »
2 weeks ago Fungus was pushing the 54Z that also has has a multiplexed vertical control like the X-E Siglents, last week it was Keysight, this week GW Instek so what will it be next week ? ?  :-//

It will be whatever suits the person who's asking the question.

A newbie who's never owned an oscilloscope and has an "under $400" budget: Rigol DS1054Z

(or maybe GW-Instek if they can get one at a good price where they live)

Somebody who specifically asks for a "Fluke experience", or wants a noticeable step up from the basic, entry level scopes? The Keysight.

What about you? What will you be pushing...?
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 03:48:52 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #32 on: September 20, 2019, 03:42:33 am »
But 1000B has only one 1GS/s A/D so at least Zynq bitstream can't be same. So I understand what your'e saying and if they keep on doing this way, it might keep on working. But it is not tested and weird side-effects might creep up in the code, and if they do, they won't be fixing it, if it only doesn't work a 1000B. I believe that is what Rjsouza wants to say and I agree.
I agree that all 2000E are IDENTICAL, and they will always work. But 1000B works only by side-effect at this point. And quite well so far.
But no guarantees..

It's software that works on a datastream coming out of a chip. If they break the decoding then they'll most likely also break the FFT, the on-screen meaurements, the math functions.... anything else that processes that datastream.

decoding is just a different kind of math waveform.

Exactly.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2019, 03:45:40 am by Fungus »
 

Online tautech

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #33 on: September 20, 2019, 07:45:27 am »
2 weeks ago Fungus was pushing the 54Z that also has has a multiplexed vertical control like the X-E Siglents, last week it was Keysight, this week GW Instek so what will it be next week ? ?  :-//

It will be whatever suits the person who's asking the question.

A newbie who's never owned an oscilloscope and has an "under $400" budget: Rigol DS1054Z

(or maybe GW-Instek if they can get one at a good price where they live)

Somebody who specifically asks for a "Fluke experience", or wants a noticeable step up from the basic, entry level scopes? The Keysight.

What about you?
From just 4 series of Siglent DSO's, the model that suits a buyers needs and budget best, those will be X or X-E models and of many configurations. Of course it includes SDS5104X that Dave reckoned was best value for the $ in its class.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #34 on: September 20, 2019, 03:02:53 pm »
2 weeks ago Fungus was pushing the 54Z that also has has a multiplexed vertical control like the X-E Siglents, last week it was Keysight, this week GW Instek so what will it be next week ? ?  :-//
It will be whatever suits the person who's asking the question.
...
What about you?
From just 4 series of Siglent DSO's, the model that suits a buyers needs and budget best, those will be X or X-E models and of many configurations. Of course it includes SDS5104X that Dave reckoned was best value for the $ in its class.

It's weird that I'm the one being called out and accused of something...
 

Online tautech

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2019, 08:58:46 pm »
2 weeks ago Fungus was pushing the 54Z that also has has a multiplexed vertical control like the X-E Siglents, last week it was Keysight, this week GW Instek so what will it be next week ? ?  :-//
It will be whatever suits the person who's asking the question.
...
What about you?
From just 4 series of Siglent DSO's, the model that suits a buyers needs and budget best, those will be X or X-E models and of many configurations. Of course it includes SDS5104X that Dave reckoned was best value for the $ in its class.

It's weird that I'm the one being called out and accused of something...
I'm impressed that you've purchased all those scopes and can give real use experience advice for all of them.  :-//
Never seen any screenshots ..............  :-//  :-//
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Online KaneTW

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #36 on: September 20, 2019, 09:00:33 pm »
R&S gave me a 30% discount as a student (through a reseller).
 

Offline JxR

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #37 on: September 20, 2019, 09:37:15 pm »
R&S gave me a 30% discount as a student (through a reseller).

Nice.  I wonder if they are more generous with students in Germany, or you just got lucky with the reseller?  I tried twice to get the 25% discount and was denied both times.  Although R&S (Rich) was generous enough to offer to upgrade one of my pieces of equipment recently for free, so not really complaining.  The discounts do influence my purchases though...
 

Offline Gandalf_Sr

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #38 on: September 21, 2019, 08:49:53 am »
Hi Arnen :D As dcbrown73 predicted, here's another my-brand-of-scope-is-better-than-yours fustercluck but here's my 2 pence worth.

I own a Rigol DS1054Z that can simply be turned into a DS1104Z with all options enabled (just Google 'Riglol'). Unless you're designing satellites and assuming that your eyesight is OK, you will probably be just fine with this scope. 4 channels are useful for decoding e.g. SPI where you need the CS as a trigger to isolate traffic to the device you're interested in.

Don't know what they cost in Blighty buddy but I got mine here in the more-guns-than-people USA for $300 as an open box item from Tequipment.net

FWIW, I own other scopes including a 1GHz 4 channel arm+leg beast but the DS1054Z fulfills 99.9% of my needs.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #39 on: September 21, 2019, 07:00:21 pm »
I'm impressed that you've purchased all those scopes and can give real use experience advice for all of them.  :-//
Never seen any screenshots ..............  :-//  :-//

I have access to quite a few 'scopes at the University so sometimes I get to play with them.

It's pretty clear which 'scope is starring in Dave's videos lately, he's even posted in the forums saying, "... the Keysight, they got practically everything on that right and is my preferred daily driver, and most people seem to agree.".

A Keysight costs $160 more than your Siglent, sure, but if you're a professional who uses a 'scope for paid work or are already going for a Siglent over a Rigol then you're demanding "the next level" so why compromise with a half-step when a full step up the ladder is only 30% more?

« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 08:19:06 pm by Fungus »
 

Online tautech

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #40 on: September 21, 2019, 09:21:35 pm »
I'm impressed that you've purchased all those scopes and can give real use experience advice for all of them.  :-//
Never seen any screenshots ..............  :-//  :-//

I have access to quite a few 'scopes at the University so sometimes I get to play with them.
Ah OK, not use only play.  :=\

Quote
It's pretty clear which 'scope is starring in Dave's videos lately, he's even posted in the forums saying, "... the Keysight, they got practically everything on that right and is my preferred daily driver, and most people seem to agree.".
::)
Who wouldn't prefer to use a 2GSa/a DSO over an entry level model ?  :-//
And when Dave needs additional memory depth over what the KS has to offer he grabs whatever else he has close to hand.
The KS is hamstrung with very limited memory depth and DSO's at just half the price offer many times more.

Quote
A Keysight costs $160 more than your Siglent,

My Siglent ? WTF are you on about ?
State a model FFS and let's compare features.

Quote
sure, but if you're a professional who uses a 'scope for paid work or are already going for a Siglent over a Rigol then you're demanding "the next level" so why compromise with a half-step when a full step up the ladder is only 30% more?
Again, what compromise is there when one scope is better featured than another ?
Buyers select on the feature set, specs required and the bang for buck.
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Offline 2N3055

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #41 on: September 21, 2019, 09:55:57 pm »
I'm impressed that you've purchased all those scopes and can give real use experience advice for all of them.  :-//
Never seen any screenshots ..............  :-//  :-//

I have access to quite a few 'scopes at the University so sometimes I get to play with them.

It's pretty clear which 'scope is starring in Dave's videos lately, he's even posted in the forums saying, "... the Keysight, they got practically everything on that right and is my preferred daily driver, and most people seem to agree.".

A Keysight costs $160 more than your Siglent, sure, but if you're a professional who uses a 'scope for paid work or are already going for a Siglent over a Rigol then you're demanding "the next level" so why compromise with a half-step when a full step up the ladder is only 30% more?

Which Keysight is 160 USD more than which Siglent?
We have to compare on equal terms.
Also, Rigol or Siglent type of software hacks are not the same as opening, and potentially damage, scope and solder stuff in it. Warranty is definitely gone. Nor Siglent nor Rigol ever make problems if you send in "enhanced scope". They might change a motherboard and erase hacked licenses, but will not refuse warranty. You simply reapply licenses.
Soldering inside is nor risk free nor equally easy. Siglent scopes are coming basically unlocked, so no need for hacking at all.

DSOX1204A+D1200BW2A+D1200AUTA+D1200EMBA is 2000USD + tax. There is no hack for the 4ch one.
DSOX1102A + 100MHZ UPGRADE+ DSOX1AUTO+DSOX1EMB  is 1200USD + tax. Professionals won't hack the scope. You get 2+0,5 Ch scope.

And as much as I like Dave, he is very quick to dismiss things as not good if they are different to what is he used to.
Many people are, many are not. He uses MSOX3054 as daily drive for years, and is very used to and familiar to that U/I.
I don't find my MSOX3000T user interface especially logical. I had to spend many hours before I memorized what is where.
So I did with Rigol, and Picoscope, and Tek and LeCroy...
I personally find LeCroy most logical...Go figure.

So I take " they are doing it RIGHT" with a grain of salt, and read it " they are doing it how I'm used to so it feels familiar"
 

Online nctnico

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #42 on: September 21, 2019, 10:17:28 pm »
And as much as I like Dave, he is very quick to dismiss things as not good if they are different to what is he used to.
Many people are, many are not. He uses MSOX3054 as daily drive for years, and is very used to and familiar to that U/I.

So I take " they are doing it RIGHT" with a grain of salt, and read it " they are doing it how I'm used to so it feels familiar"
I agree. In many cases you can say a device or piece of software is better or worse after using it for a few projects.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2019, 10:19:46 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2019, 04:04:13 pm »
Also, Rigol or Siglent type of software hacks are not the same as opening, and potentially damage, scope and solder stuff in it. Warranty is definitely gone. Nor Siglent nor Rigol ever make problems if you send in "enhanced scope". They might change a motherboard and erase hacked licenses, but will not refuse warranty. You simply reapply licenses.
Soldering inside is nor risk free nor equally easy. Siglent scopes are coming basically unlocked, so no need for hacking at all.

You're out of touch, the Keysight can be hacked using a file on a USB stick, just like the others:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg2062735/#msg2062735

Which Keysight is 160 USD more than which Siglent?

The ones in the "under $700" price bracket.

nb. I never discuss 'scopes in the "over $1000" bracket because I don't know much about them and have never used them.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 04:22:32 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2019, 07:41:39 pm »
Also, Rigol or Siglent type of software hacks are not the same as opening, and potentially damage, scope and solder stuff in it. Warranty is definitely gone. Nor Siglent nor Rigol ever make problems if you send in "enhanced scope". They might change a motherboard and erase hacked licenses, but will not refuse warranty. You simply reapply licenses.
Soldering inside is nor risk free nor equally easy. Siglent scopes are coming basically unlocked, so no need for hacking at all.

You're out of touch, the Keysight can be hacked using a file on a USB stick, just like the others:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg2062735/#msg2062735

Which Keysight is 160 USD more than which Siglent?

The ones in the "under $700" price bracket.
Thanks for clarification.
 

Online tautech

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2019, 07:59:26 pm »
Also, Rigol or Siglent type of software hacks are not the same as opening, and potentially damage, scope and solder stuff in it. Warranty is definitely gone. Nor Siglent nor Rigol ever make problems if you send in "enhanced scope". They might change a motherboard and erase hacked licenses, but will not refuse warranty. You simply reapply licenses.
Soldering inside is nor risk free nor equally easy. Siglent scopes are coming basically unlocked, so no need for hacking at all.

You're out of touch, the Keysight can be hacked using a file on a USB stick, just like the others:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-978-keysight-1000x-hacking/msg2062735/#msg2062735

Which Keysight is 160 USD more than which Siglent?

The ones in the "under $700" price bracket.
Thanks for clarification.
Clarification ? ?  :-//

FYI there's 3 Siglent X-E models all well under $ 700.
SDS1202X-E
SDS1104X-E
SDS2202X-E
All 100+ MHz, 14+ Mpts, Decode and 500uV/div real sensitivity.

And Fungus the Rigol/KS/GW Instek pusher won't even state a model ?  :scared:

Quote
A Keysight costs $160 more than your Siglent,

My Siglent ? WTF are you on about ?
State a model FFS and let's compare features.
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Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2019, 09:59:21 pm »
SDS1000X-E
 

Online tautech

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #47 on: September 22, 2019, 10:26:36 pm »
SDS1000X-E
SDS1202X-E at $379 is half the price of a KS, 200 MHz has Decode as standard and many times the memory and higher sensitivity.

But we compare apples with oranges and a fair comparison with KS (when you decide to state a relevant model  ::) ) is SDS2202X-E with it’s comparable 2GSa/s that still outspecs competition in many respects.

Again, a model # for the readers and the OP for which to study real comparability ?
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Online BillB

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #48 on: September 22, 2019, 11:11:16 pm »
I think the only Keysight below $700 is the DSOX1102A. 70MHz, 2 channel, 1Mpts, 2GSa/S, 50k Wfms/s (not including hacks)
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: The right choice of digital oscilloscope
« Reply #49 on: September 23, 2019, 12:08:05 am »
I think the only Keysight below $700 is the DSOX1102A. 70MHz, 2 channel, 1Mpts, 2GSa/S, 50k Wfms/s (not including hacks)

It's actually a 2+1 channel MSO, but who's counting...?  :popcorn:


« Last Edit: September 23, 2019, 12:09:54 am by Fungus »
 
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