Author Topic: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread  (Read 121480 times)

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Offline ivan747

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The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« on: January 02, 2015, 05:33:29 pm »
I have noticed there is a lot of info and research on the SDG1000 series generators, but it is spread all over the forum, so it's hard to find. I'm starting this threads in hopes that people can find this information easily. If you make a finding in your SDG1000 series generator, give us a heads up. Sometimes information is buried on threads not directly related to the instrument, on those cases we will link the particular post that mentions the instrument. In cases where a forum thread or other resource has, for example, a review and a finding, there will be a reference to the thread or resource on each category.

Anyone can contribute, contributions are asked and welcome. You can also post small findings here, if you happen to find something big and important (like a hack), definitely tell us about it and give us a link so that can post that link for everyone to see your findings.

Let's get started:

SDG1000 series

Members of the series:
Siglent: SDG1005, SDG1010, SDG1020, SDG1025, SDG1050. The last 2 digits indicate the max. sine wave bandwidth in MHz.
The SDG1005 and  1010 appear to have slightly different hardware, this is known by the lack of a fan in them, except for the early versions.
See here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/function-generator-comparison-help-please/msg272666/#msg272666
LeCroy: WaveStation 2012, WaveStation 2022, WaveStation 2052. These are 10, 25 and 50MHz respectively.

Specs
Official datasheet http://www.siglent.com/2014EnglishWebsite/Documents/Datasheet/SDG1000_DataSheet_DS02010-E07A.pdf

Specs known but not officially listed
External modulation input sampling rate: 500ksps
External modulation input filtering: none, there is no Nyquist frequency filter, aliasing can occur. Feeding in a 250kHz sine wave, from Ch.2 (which is in phase) results in 2 discrete modulation values. In this condition, AM modulation looks like ASK modulation on a scope, and FM into FSK modulation on a spectrum analyzer.
Frequency response bode plots for the SDG1025 (also read the posts that follow): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/msg612806/#msg612806

Firmware
Reportedly, Siglent's firmware versions always end in an odd number. LeCroy's firmware versions end in an even number. It is known that the LeCroy firmware can be uploaded to a Siglent unit (will void your warranty), and it gives you a more pleasing visual theme, swapped channels (Ch1 willl be the left BNC instead of the right and vice versa) and removes the built in counter. It will also enable you to work with LeCroy's LabVIEW drivers without editing header files, and possibly other PC connectivity things detailed in LeCroy's programming manual. More details on that on reply #1

 But please do not try until you read the related thread. Obviously, this voids your warranty.
Also, please note that as of April 2015, Siglent has released LabVIEW drivers. Details down below.

*Official Siglent firmware download center: http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15
*LeCroy's download center (WaveStation 2000 series, NOT 3000): http://teledynelecroy.com/support/softwaredownload/documents.aspx?sc=24
*Put LeCroy's firmware in a Siglent thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1000-(aka-lecroy-wavestation)-firmware-updates/

Manuals
*User manual: http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDG1000_UserManual_UM02010-E07B.pdf
*Service manual: http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/service_manual/SDG1000_ServiceManual_SM02010-E01B.pdf
*Programming manual: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-sdg1000-and-sdg800-thread/?action=dlattach;attach=127867
*LeCroy's user manual (describes in MUCH more details the PC connectivity): http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wavestation_om-e.pdf
*LeCroy's programming manual: http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wsta_scpi_manual_reva.pdf

PC Software
Official EasyWave software:  http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=867&tid=14
*Lecroy's software is exactly the same.
*Siglent's LabVIEW drivers: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg656874/#msg656874

Authorized distribuitors (or anyone who offers a warranty)
Siglent offers a 3 year factory warranty, sellers listed provide this warranty. If they offer a different warranty, that will be pointed out.

*Forum member tautech, New Zealand: http://www.tautech.co.nz/
*Forum member rf-loop,Finland: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=413 He offers this warranty as a complement.

Reviews
*Video review by Connor Wolf:
*Some Amazon reviews: http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B00EJ9BKO8
*Some TEquipment reviews: http://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDG1025/Function-Generator/?readReview=75c58#tab-reviews
*My humble opinion: http://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDG1010/Fully-usable-AWG-at-a-very-low-price/c629c3f1890b4/

Teardowns
*SDG1010 photo teardown https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/siglent-sdg1010-function-generator-teardown/
*Another teardown, with text description: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1025-arbitraryfunction-generator-under-some-tests/msg129024/#msg129024
*Video teardown:
*Teardown of an early SDG1020 (2012) with fan: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1020-waveform-generator-teardown-pics/

Issues (unsolved) Potentially outdated!!!
*(2-jan-2015) USB driver is partially broken in Windows 8 by the lack of driver signature. A workaround is the following: The SDG1000 series have 2 USB modes. One is a device-specific protocol called USBRAW by the user interface. This mode requires proprietary drivers to work. Unfortunately, these drivers are not signed despite the manual sugesting they are, so Windows 8 will refuse to install or work with them under normal circumstances. There are two workaroundsL temporaly disable driver signature enforcement in Windows 8, which is re-enabled after a restart or use the second USB mode. This second mode, USBTMC is similar to how HID devices, such as USB mice, joysticks and keyboards work. It requires no device-specific drivers. Just like HID, Windows comes with a general TMC driver, that it can use to communicate with the SDG1000. The included software works with USBTMC.
*The PC software is lacking waveform clipping, amplitude normalization, compression etc: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-reasonable-dds-function-gererator-need-opinions-please/msg577154/#msg577154
*There is no readouts in dBm, you can input values in dBm, but these get converted to volts and displayed as volts, not as dBm. A workaround is to print a table with volts and dBm conversions.

Issues (solved)
*SQUARE WAVE GLITCH Solved only for newer units. (in brief, the work-aroundis to use the pulse function when working at low frequencies, either that or a hardware mod): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1020-arbitrary-fungen-first-impressions-and-a-possible-signal-glitch/
As far as I am aware, the SDG800 does not have this problem, thanks to the EasyPulse technology.
*Sometimes your firmware will come in Chinese, this is how you change it to english: press utility button. Press 5th blue button once. Press 2nd blue button three times.
*TFT contrast issue, solved in subsequent firmware upggrade (download the latest firmware): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/siglent-sdg1010-function-generator-teardown/msg140663/#msg140663
*TFT contrast issue, detailed: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1025-arbitraryfunction-generator-under-some-tests/msg126941/#msg126941

Findings
*Sine wave purity and modulation tests using spectrum analyzer: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1025-arbitraryfunction-generator-under-some-tests/msg126941/#msg126941
*Jitter tests (pulse mode): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1025-arbitraryfunction-generator-under-some-tests/msg127312/#msg127312
*Same as previous 2, by the same poster, but with more pictures: http://siglent.freeforums.org/tests-sdg1000-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-t5.html
*You can probably rack mount the instrument if you wish, buy the LeCroy accesory: http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wavestation_rackmount_assembly_instructions.pdf
*You can install LeCroy's firmware on your Siglent: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1000-(aka-lecroy-wavestation)-firmware-updates/
*Overshoot measurements and some USBTMC discussion: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/new-siglent-sdg1020-vs-used-fluke-281-wavetek-39a/msg137823/#msg137823
*External modulation input sampling frequency (correction: the maximum internal modulation frequency is 20kHz) (starts halfway into the review): http://www.tequipment.net/Siglent/SDG1010/Fully-usable-AWG-at-a-very-low-price/c629c3f1890b4/
*There is a method for loading CSV files directly into the SDG1000 series, that aparently does compression: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-reasonable-dds-function-gererator-need-opinions-please/msg577256/#msg577256
*There is a way to add a temperature controlled crystal oscillator (TCXO) for higher accuracy:
*Of course, you could also get a 10MHz reference, as accurate as you'd like, put it in a nice project box and connect it to the external 10MHZ input. Just remember there will be jitter on the output anyways, because it's a DDS.

Other information of interest
*Siglent has released a Power Amplifier with a bandwidth of up to 1MHz and a power output of 10W (when ouputting between 500Hz and 200kHz). It's tailored towards their signal generators.
    Product page: http://www.siglent.com/ENs/prodcut-fjxx.aspx?fjid=1071&id=145&tid=16&T=2
    Manual: http://www.siglent.com/2014EnglishWebsite/Documents/UserManual/SPA1000_UserManual_UM60010-E01A.pdf
*SDG1000 and SDG5000 series comparison: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/siglent-equipment-old-or-new-design-!!/
*Opinions on Rigol vs Siglent generators: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/best-cost-effective-option-for-arbitrary-function-generator/
*3 mods you can do: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-reasonable-dds-function-gererator-need-opinions-please/msg579056/#msg579056
*Wiki-style page, including IC names, and teardown photos. The Wiki belongs to an open source project, which I recommend you check out: http://sigrok.org/wiki/Siglent_SDG1010





SDG800 series

Members of the series
(pending)

Specs
Official datasheet http://siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/DataSheet/SDG800_DataSheet_DS02008-E02A.pdf

Specs known but not officially listed

Firmware
*Official firmware download center: http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15
Verify that the model number is correct before downloading

Manuals
*User manual: http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/UserManual/SDG800_UserManual_UM02008-E02B.pdf
*Service manual: there is no service manual officially published online. If there's one on the CD, please upload it for us. Thank you.
*Programming manual: http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Documents/Other/SDG800_RemoteControlManual_RC02008-E02A.pdf

PC Software
Official EasyWave software: http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj-xq.aspx?id=868&tid=14

Authorized distribuitors (or anyone who offers a warranty)
Siglent offers a 3 year factory warranty, sellers listed provide this warranty. If they offer a different warranty, that will be pointed out.

*Forum member tautech, New Zealand: http://www.tautech.co.nz/
*Forum member rf-loop,Finland: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/profile/?u=413 He offers this warranty as a complement.


Reviews
(pending)

Teardowns
*Teardown of the SDG805 with photos of the internals: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/teardown-of-siglent%27s-sdg805-arbitrary-waveform-generator/

Issues (unsolved)
(pending)

Issues (solved)
(pending)

Findings
*You can probably rack mount the instrument if you wish, buy the LeCroy accesory: http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/manuals/wavestation_rackmount_assembly_instructions.pdf
« Last Edit: October 08, 2015, 08:04:42 pm by ivan747 »
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #1 on: January 02, 2015, 08:10:25 pm »
Nice thread  :-+
Quote
I am not aware if the LabVIEW thing is possible with Siglent's firmware

I can confirm it is possible to get the LabVIEW interface running with Siglent's firmware by modifying the LeCroy LabVIEW "code". IIRC you need to look for the *IDN? SCPI command in the "code" (or WTF you call that OO GUI crap?) and replace the strings from "Wavestation nnnn" to "SDGnnnn". Of course LabVIEW is a total dogs dinner, I only got to play with the trial version and it had me tearing my hair out.

Stick with something more natural to a programmer, like Visual Studio, Excel even, or MATLAB which I have not had the pleasure of using yet, but Shahriar (thesignalpath) seems to use all the time. Also make sure you download and install the FULL NI-VISA and not just the runtime version.

Oh, one other thing that got my piss boiling for at least a day  |O was not knowing that the SDG1000s defaulted to a USBRAW format, and if you want to use NI-VISA, you have to change to USBTMC in the Utility panel. ;)
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #2 on: January 02, 2015, 08:23:01 pm »
I edited the post, thank you  :)
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2015, 08:58:43 pm »
Nice thread  :-+
Quote
I am not aware if the LabVIEW thing is possible with Siglent's firmware

I can confirm it is possible to get the LabVIEW interface running with Siglent's firmware by modifying the LeCroy LabVIEW "code". IIRC you need to look for the *IDN? SCPI command in the "code" (or WTF you call that OO GUI crap?) and replace the strings from "Wavestation nnnn" to "SDGnnnn".

Specifically, what you have to do if you want a LabVIEW driver for the SDG1010, SDG1020, SDG1025 or SDG1050 (yes, this is for search engine ranking :P ) is: install LeCroy's "driver" as usual (that is, unzipping the folder and copying it to C:\Program Files\National Instruments\LabVIEW 2014\instr.lib\), open the labview project file called "Teledyne LeCroy WaveStation.lvproj", then in the project explorer, look for a file called "LCWS Initialize.vi", double click, then open the block editor by double clicking one of the UI controls just in the right spot, look for a pink block called "WST," and change the text to "SDG,", voila. Done  :-+
« Last Edit: January 04, 2015, 09:00:47 pm by ivan747 »
 

Offline commongrounder

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2015, 10:55:05 pm »
Hi ivan747.  Thanks for starting this thread. I know it will very useful.  I just wanted to mention, in the interest of being thorough, that there is a model SDG1005, too. This is the model I have.  Not surprisingly, it has no fan, which is great for the audio work that I do.
Is there any other user that wishes there was a way to change the output level readout, say from volts to dbm, without having to reenter a value?
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2015, 08:01:21 pm »
What do you use dBm for, may I ask?
You can print a table with volts and dBm values, if you want, but you are right. It is something that can be added to the settings menu.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2015, 08:03:55 pm by ivan747 »
 

Offline aviphysics

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2015, 09:32:05 pm »
*There is a way to add a temperature controlled crystal oscillator (TCXO) for higher accuracy:

Does this solve the jitter problem with short pulses generated at low frequency or does it just improve precision?
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2015, 03:06:46 am »
It doesn't solve the jitter problem at low frequencies. That problem CAN be solved with another hardware modification. It consists of replacing a couple of SMD resistors on the board with lower value ones. It is linked in the main thread.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2015, 03:39:36 pm »
*There is a way to add a temperature controlled crystal oscillator (TCXO) for higher accuracy:

Does this solve the jitter problem with short pulses generated at low frequency or does it just improve precision?

First need particularize what jitter we are talking and produced by Square or Pulse function. (they have totally different operating principle and jitter mechanism is different)

Also need first know what is "low frequency" in this case. Is it 1mHz (milli Herz) or is it 1Hz or 1kHz or what. Also 1MHz is low frequency for others and "high frequency" for some others.

If we talk Pulse mode, there is system operating principle generated 8ns jitter independent of frequency (+ other jitters) This is because it have 125MSa/s and in this working principle it need some "jumping" for adjust pulse period/frequency.

If we talk about Square wave, and it is very different case due to its operating principle.
There can do some modifications what can improve cycle to cycle jitter some amount or more depending what manufacture version (and lot) it is.
In this model Square wave is derived from sinewave. (it works so that internally it produce sinewave in this Square wave mode - this is common classic way to do Square / rectangle.)

This is done: Sine --> in Comparator (with adjustable treshold and hysteresis) out --> Square/rectangle.
In this operation, specially with very low frequency  side product is timing jitter. This is because there is not ideal pure zero noise sinewave, there is not ideal Comparator without noise and not treshold voltage without noise and so on.)

There is two separate way to improve sguare/rectangle  wave timing jitter related to this comparator. (Comparator there is fast PECL comparator). Today (and starting long time ago) Siglent have changed it. It is possible that still can do some minor improvement. If people have older unit, it is possible it can improve lot of.   

In old case there was too narrow hysteresis window. It leads to corner glitches and high amount of time jitter with low frequendcies and even pulse bursts in worst case near rise and fall.
This can fix adjusting hysteresis window more wide. This can adjust with hysteresis set resistor value. But also this improvement need compromise. (if want also 20% and 80% duty timing jitter minimize then 50% time jitter can not minimize. If want get best possible 50% duty jitter, then 20/80% duty goes more bad. So it need compromize. For hyst set around 20k resistance values are ok but if put more weight for 50% duty time jitter then there can use example 15k or even more low but then perhaps too much  reduced quality for 20 and 80% duty.

Other source for time jitter is internal sinewave in PECL inputs. Jitter can some amount improve if filter higher noise frequencies from signal. In simply way it there is 50ohm (49.99)  terminator resistors for internal sinewave lines to PECL inputs.  Parallel with these resistors can solder small capacitors (these can solder over resistor). (I do not remember values exatly but we talk here about picofarads.  Perhaps something around 30pF (depending model).  It can select using tests specially if want find best compromise).

Comparator is ADCMP562.


In this image (from old unit) can see that Hysteresis setting resistors are 40.2k (R82, R87)  and this individual unit have high amount Square corner glitches and low freguencies cycle to cycle jitter (specially under 10kHz frequencies)

Internal sinewave transmission line terminators (50 ohm)  in signal path to comparator are R193, R194)
« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:40:09 am by rf-loop »
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Offline jimon

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2015, 09:03:06 pm »
Are SDG10xx hackable for max frequency nowadays ? I'll prefer to have Siglent to Hantek HDG2002B.
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #10 on: January 11, 2015, 09:11:44 pm »
Are SDG10xx hackable for max frequency nowadays ? I'll prefer to have Siglent to Hantek HDG2002B.
Maybe, but to date nobody that I'm aware of has made the effort.
You'd want to be aware the low frequency(>10 MHz) don't have cooling fans while over 10 MHz they do.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #11 on: January 11, 2015, 10:10:32 pm »
Are SDG10xx hackable for max frequency nowadays ? I'll prefer to have Siglent to Hantek HDG2002B.

No. It looks like Siglent do not use this marketing trick. (least yet)

(For sinewave, of course with reduced specs example SDG1010 can produce 50MHz using Arb and equation: 10*(sin(10*x)).
Now with 5MHz set for Arb it give out 50MHz.)



« Last Edit: January 12, 2015, 05:56:14 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline commongrounder

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2015, 01:30:46 am »
What do you use dBm for, may I ask?
You can print a table with volts and dBm values, if you want, but you are right. It is something that can be added to the settings menu.
I'm just used to having precision attenuators on my FGs. I'll sometimes start with a particular output voltage and then want to drop it by a certain db amount.  It would be convenient to be able to switch level reading types on the fly. When in the middle of a repair, or test, it is nice to not have to be distracted by a calculation or chart. Audio is my main business, and most gain stages are measured in referenced db values.  I have an external precision attenuator, but it takes precious time to set up.  If the SDG unit would just let one open the level set menu without entering a value, the measurement type of interest could just be selected, and the unit would convert the existing level to it.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #13 on: January 18, 2015, 02:01:18 am »
Are SDG10xx hackable for max frequency nowadays ? I'll prefer to have Siglent to Hantek HDG2002B.

No. It looks like Siglent do not use this marketing trick. (least yet)

(For sinewave, of course with reduced specs example SDG1010 can produce 50MHz using Arb and equation: 10*(sin(10*x)).
Now with 5MHz set for Arb it give out 50MHz.)

Personally, I think they do use the trick, and the only difference is the fan. We would have to start some formal research on this.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2015, 09:02:39 am »
Are SDG10xx hackable for max frequency nowadays ? I'll prefer to have Siglent to Hantek HDG2002B.

No. It looks like Siglent do not use this marketing trick. (least yet)

(For sinewave, of course with reduced specs example SDG1010 can produce 50MHz using Arb and equation: 10*(sin(10*x)).
Now with 5MHz set for Arb it give out 50MHz.)

Personally, I think they do use the trick, and the only difference is the fan. We would have to start some formal research on this.

Really?

I can tell least this. Every single unit is different. Every SDG1010 is different. Every SDG1025 is different. Every SDG1005 is different. Every SDG1020 is different. Every SDG1050 is different.

Main stream models are SDG1010, 1025 and 1050.  There 1025 and 1050 have fan.
Fan is needed.  If we run unit 24/7 using these specifications limit values where stress is most high it need survive it without risk that failure rate grow too high. It is statistics. It need also include knowledge about components tolerances and all combinations what may occur, also worst cases. So if one individual survive it do not tell yet nearly anything. It need statistics using lot of equipments.

After manufacture there can see some units are better and some not if looks some test values what may include elliptic filters quality and end amplifier situations with different loads(!) with different waveforms including all kind of impedance mismatches and so on...  and just example some units have better square, less jitter and more jitter, and including that difference may occur only if go to other than 50% duty values.

Some units whole circuit (mid way amplifiers, filters, attenuators and end stage freq response is different, not only designed different but also due to all componets tolerances (and it need also know component values drift after ageing).   

If product can not meet some (company internal) specifications in product test for example 1025 model what to do.  I think no one believe they go to recycling.  So what to do?  First idea what every people can himself think is try if it still meet some other model specs.  If it meet SDSG1020 factory internals test specifications so that it can be this model, then it is just ok.
I do NOT KNOW if this is true in Siglent case but if I do this kind of products I do it.

But then, if you take SDG1005 and SDG1050  do you really think only designed(1) HW difference is fan. I do not "believe".

(1) there is least two kind of differencies in HW.
- designed differencies
- not designed differencies from every single component tolerances and all combinations with these, including also differencies in plain main boards what also are individuals still after designed to be equal.

 Example around end amplifiers there is really small things what affect lot of.  (and example in attenuator/elliptic filer/filter section)
Just for tiny example some pF change and all is different and many other things.

I know it, I have changed SDG1000's end amplifiers just because different manufacturer "compatible" is not at all compatible (accidentally - or trying money saving - or just due to availability in needed time - Siglent used (in some manuf. lot) different manufacturer compatible end amplifier.).  In this time also I have investigated end stages due to some ringing in cases where output is loaded with some level range using just some other than pure resistive load.  After these and knowing how small differencies there need it is easy to understand that 50MHz model is not same as 25 or 10 or 5 MHz model. Even if they looks like same they are not same (designed or not designed differencies - I do not want to take a stand.). 

Or take example Sine to Square circuit. Small differencies in components real values inside their tolerances and other unit have much more cycle to cycle time jitter specially with low frequencies.
I have investigated this thing inside SDG1000  quite deeply and also made some experimental's there in circuit. (results are allready published)

Solution is extremely simply: If need 50MHz model buy 50MHz model. If need 5MHz model, buy it but do not want after then want it still is like 50MHz model if you add fan to it.   

« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 09:05:13 am by rf-loop »
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Offline MartyD

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #15 on: January 18, 2015, 10:02:33 am »
Solution is extremely simply: If need 50MHz model buy 50MHz model. If need 5MHz model, buy it but do not want after then want it still is like 50MHz model if you add fan to it.   

I could not agree more! Besides the possible technical differences between them, you are also trying to steal intellectual property from the manufacturer by "unlocking" higher specs than what you paid for. And you do not pay alot for what you get in a Siglent.

Just my 2 cents
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #16 on: January 18, 2015, 11:35:50 am »
Quote
Authorized distribuitors (or anyone who offers a warranty)
(pending)
Myself & rf-loop plus other members.
I have a dozen SDG810's in the field with 3 year factory warranties.
Happy for you to link my website.  ;)
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2015, 12:57:57 pm »
Quote
Authorized distribuitors (or anyone who offers a warranty)
(pending)
Myself & rf-loop plus other members.
I have a dozen SDG810's in the field with 3 year factory warranties.
Happy for you to link my website.  ;)

Yes.

I have n amount of SDG's and other Siglent equipments in the field with 3 year factory warranties.

But today also more than just 3 year "factory warranty".
(beginning 15.Jan. 2015)

Here, locally in Finland, of course with 3 year factory warranty as  Siglent 
(Siglent Technologies Europe GmbH
Liebigstrasse 2-20, Gebaeude 14
22113 Hamburg
Germany)
   

have stated about warranty in European Union area.
( http://siglenteu.com/shfw.aspx?id=16 

For some models what I have accepted (due to longer time experience) I give also in Finland 1st year my own warranty extension to these units what have passed in my own Q.C. before sold. 

For customer it means that customer send or bring broken device to me after he first get RMA from me. Just simply, if equipment is  warranty failed (what warranty cover), customer contact me and afters sooner or later he have working unit. 

Depending failure, in co-operation with the Siglent be decided which is the wisest way to proceed in this individual case.

And of courseif customer have him self made failure doing some "oops..." type mistake, we can also repair these using Siglent spare parts. But this kind of service is not free.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 01:02:06 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline jimon

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2015, 05:03:33 pm »
@rf-loop
SDG1025 board photo
SDG1010 board photo
(Haven't found a pic for SDG1050)
Looks like exactly the same design to me. Maybe they indeed use a different components, but don't think so, why bother in a first place ? If Siglent do a design for 0-50 MHz DDS (which they do because SDG1050 is there), then it gonna work for 0-5 MHz without any changes at all, so there are no point for them to pay even 1 cent more because summary of all components + assembly costs for 50 MHz model likely to be smaller then selling price for 5 MHz model (remember how iPhone hardware was estimated around 200$, but selling price is 600+$).

The only question why they don't sell 50 MHz model for a price of 5 MHz, and an answer is quite simple - product development requires a budget (+office +revenue +tax +whatever), so each unit price contains one part for hardware, and another part is to cover development. Also they don't plan to sell a lot of them, so development costs per unit are quite significant. So in result unit is expensive, so they don't sell a lot because users aren't willing to pay so many in a first place.

So would you mind to show us hardware differences between models and prove that my assumptions are wrong :)
 

Offline Macbeth

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2015, 06:03:56 pm »
Every SDG1010 is different. Every SDG1025 is different. Every SDG1005 is different. Every SDG1020 is different. Every SDG1050 is different.
What? So if you open up a few SDG1025's they are all going to be different? Like they just randomly stick any old junk to hand at the factory? They don't have a standard schematic and service manual? This doesn't inspire me with any confidence. In fact I think I should just throw the thing in the bin and buy a proper arb gen if the Siglents are just bodged together like a dogs dinner with any old shit Won Hung Lo finds on the scrap heap that day.  :palm:
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2015, 06:32:15 pm »
Every SDG1010 is different. Every SDG1025 is different. Every SDG1005 is different. Every SDG1020 is different. Every SDG1050 is different.
What? So if you open up a few SDG1025's they are all going to be different? Like they just randomly stick any old junk to hand at the factory? They don't have a standard schematic and service manual? This doesn't inspire me with any confidence. In fact I think I should just throw the thing in the bin and buy a proper arb gen if the Siglents are just bodged together like a dogs dinner with any old shit Won Hung Lo finds on the scrap heap that day.  :palm:
Shit Macbeth, did you not take the time to read rf-loop's post carefully.  :palm:

These units perform well against compeditors because care is taken they WILL meet specifications.

Quote
Some units whole circuit (mid way amplifiers, filters, attenuators and end stage freq response is different, not only designed different but also due to all componets tolerances (and it need also know component values drift after ageing).   
Check this thread to see how my 10 MHz unit performs against similar units:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/show-us-your-square-wave/
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 06:44:02 pm by tautech »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2015, 06:33:51 pm »
Every SDG1010 is different. Every SDG1025 is different. Every SDG1005 is different. Every SDG1020 is different. Every SDG1050 is different.
What? So if you open up a few SDG1025's they are all going to be different? Like they just randomly stick any old junk to hand at the factory? They don't have a standard schematic and service manual? This doesn't inspire me with any confidence. In fact I think I should just throw the thing in the bin and buy a proper arb gen if the Siglents are just bodged together like a dogs dinner with any old shit Won Hung Lo finds on the scrap heap that day.  :palm:

No. 

But still every single unit is different.

Every single resistor, every single capasitor, every inductor, every amplifier and so on, even every PCB, all they are different, more or less.

Every component have its tolerances. In some cases all components are quaranteed inside tolerance limits and in some cases it is guaranteed 2SD  is indside limits or what ever is spesified or promised.

Product have lot of these components. As all componets are random (inside limits) there is lot of combinations.

Take example one filter. There is perhaps many resistors, capasitors and inductors... do 100 pcs with real designed components and after then measure every filter shapes - do you believe they are same and you find 100 individual filter.  Analog electronics world is...

If we do digital things...  you take component what make 8 and 8 bit AND. You make 100 these circuits...  and if not total failures they all give same result.

In SDG there is lot of analog circuits. Amplifiers, comparators, attenuators, filters...

It is possible to make 100 SDG1050 and find that some SDG1050 is example "borderline" with specs but if sell as 1010 it is ok. So... (I do not claim they do just this but also it is possible... and if I do products I want use also this... )

Possible differences in values of some  components in different models, I do not want and I can not take a stand.
There may be some differencies also in different HW versions and different manufacturing lots.


« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 06:43:32 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2015, 06:42:37 pm »
If product can not meet some (company internal) specifications in product test for example 1025 model what to do.  I think no one believe they go to recycling.  So what to do?  First idea what every people can himself think is try if it still meet some other model specs.  If it meet SDSG1020 factory internals test specifications so that it can be this model, then it is just ok.
I do NOT KNOW if this is true in Siglent case but if I do this kind of products I do it.
That makes no sense. You are not going to produce a product and hope it meets specs and sell it as a lower specced if it doesn't. That way you can't be sure you have enough units to sell. There must be other differences like component values between the low frequency and high frequency unit. I'm pretty sure there is a model number encoded somewhere either as a jumper option or somewhere in a flash. The output circuitry can also be different to have a lower frequency roll off.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #23 on: January 18, 2015, 06:55:49 pm »
If product can not meet some (company internal) specifications in product test for example 1025 model what to do.  I think no one believe they go to recycling.  So what to do?  First idea what every people can himself think is try if it still meet some other model specs.  If it meet SDSG1020 factory internals test specifications so that it can be this model, then it is just ok.
I do NOT KNOW if this is true in Siglent case but if I do this kind of products I do it.
That makes no sense. You are not going to produce a product and hope it meets specs and sell it as a lower specced if it doesn't. That way you can't be sure you have enough units to sell. There must be other differences like component values between the low frequency and high frequency unit. I'm pretty sure there is a model number encoded somewhere either as a jumper option or somewhere in a flash. The output circuitry can also be different to have a lower frequency roll off.

I have no any idea for dispute what is case exatly in Siglent with these.

This is not at all relevant with this case but still intersting (and really very extremely normal):

Take example this fun about one "famous" ADC.
ADC is designed and produced for 100MSa/s
AD sell them 100, 80 and 40MSa/s versions. Circuit is same, designed components in the chip are same...

If I do SDG1000 Idesign  do all same 50MHz models.
I then do some very trivial separation using some automatised test.

What ever day If need sell more SDG1010 what are not in this fraction allready. Just take from 50MHz fraction and set model for SDG1010.

But I have no any idea how Siglent do and I have also see some differencies...,  if someone ask "I do not remember"


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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #24 on: January 18, 2015, 07:18:33 pm »
Chip yield is something different because the process is hard to control. You can't compare that to a complete electronic circuit.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #25 on: January 18, 2015, 07:50:14 pm »
Chip yield is something different because the process is hard to control. You can't compare that to a complete electronic circuit.

True but also in analog circuits tens of components random values (inside tolerances) produce differencies. There can use more tight specified components and so on but still variations.
In cheap equipment can not use expensive narrow tolerances componets.  It only need accept that products are more or less different and some kind of compromise. Example I have seen differencies in individual SDG's. (same model) and some is better with jitter, some is better with level accuracy and some differencies in rise times and some other differencies. Some clock have more phase noise, some have more temp sensitive and so on. All are different. But inside specifications. (mostly)

Then there have been some "fun" (unexpected) cases. One example here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1020-square-signal-%27dirty%27/msg224941/#msg224941

Quote
This  amplifier (b) is Texas Instruments OPA695 (it is used in some units).
It need change to Intersil EL5166ISZ
(also Siglent have used CLC1606 in some units and this also looks like ok
EDIT/ADD: in problem case also this need change to Intersil EL5166ISZ  )
« Last Edit: January 18, 2015, 08:03:15 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline Tepe

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #26 on: January 18, 2015, 08:35:01 pm »
Firmware
Reportedly, Siglent's firmware versions always end in an odd number.
At the time of this writing, the latest SDG1000 firmware update available on http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15
is called 1.01.01.36R1. I haven't seen an Rn suffix before.
ceterum censeo systemd-inem esse delendam
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2015, 01:06:48 am »
Firmware
Reportedly, Siglent's firmware versions always end in an odd number.
At the time of this writing, the latest SDG1000 firmware update available on http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15
is called 1.01.01.36R1. I haven't seen an Rn suffix before.

Yes, this confuses me as well. Any other reports? RF-loop, I think you know about this.
 

Offline aviphysics

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2015, 02:13:47 am »
I wouldn't be the slightest bit surprised if they used lower spec parts in the lower frequency models. There are plenty of parts that are pin compatible with much higher spec parts. Would also not be surprised if they used the same spec parts in all models, and just software limited the unit. I seriously doubt that they are binning. If the design is at all reasonable, it doesn't seem like you would expect that some parts could reach 50 Mhz and others would only reach 5 Mhz. That would be a ridiculous amount of variation.
 

Offline pickle9000

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2015, 02:29:19 am »
Exchanging chips to reduce bandwidth is a valid approach if you have no intention of selling upgrade (soft) options. Very effective compared to depopulating a board. If a chip(s) is missing you only need to find out what it is and reinstall. If you need to remove a chip (and change some filter items for example) it becomes more of an issue.

If you look at the Rigol 1054z the bits missing on the main board are for the logic analyzer stuff and a panel connector to tie it in. They also have a set of resistors that id the board, that is probably for the logic analyzer and sig gen. I expect it won't take long before the logic analyzer stuff is hacked. A few chips, power reg, connector assy and figure out the board id.

Anyway Siglent's approach to the issue is a good one, at least as good as you can get. Interesting subject.

 
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2015, 05:16:26 am »
Firmware
Reportedly, Siglent's firmware versions always end in an odd number.
At the time of this writing, the latest SDG1000 firmware update available on http://siglenteu.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15
is called 1.01.01.36R1. I haven't seen an Rn suffix before.

Yes, this confuses me as well. Any other reports? RF-loop, I think you know about this.

I do not know where from this kind of beliefs are coming but:
There have been and is currently FW version ending with odd and even  numbers and there is and have beeen also Rn
There have been also odd andd even ending FW versions also for SDG1000 series.
current public list for many Siglent equipments:

Example for SDG800:
1.08.01.06 
1.08.01.07
1.08.01.08

Other equipments currently
1.01.01.03R1
1.01.01.06R2
1.01.01.37.2
1.08.01.07
1.01.01.09
1.01.01.36R1
1.08.01.06
5.06.02.19
5.08.02.30
3.01.02.01
1.01.01.35.01
1.01.01.31
5.01.01.10
5.06.02.16
5.01.02.13
5.01.02.22
5.03.02.12
« Last Edit: January 19, 2015, 05:20:15 am by rf-loop »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2015, 10:31:37 pm »
Does anyone know if the 800 series has a fan?

Also, what's the deal with the giant rubber bumpers on function generators?  Are manufacturers assuming people are throwing them in the back of pickup trucks?  :-//
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2015, 12:57:57 am »
Also, what's the deal with the giant rubber bumpers on function generators?  Are manufacturers assuming people are throwing them in the back of pickup trucks?  :-//
They grip to the bench more than a Formula 1 tire and it looks cool  O0 I like them.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #33 on: January 20, 2015, 11:51:25 am »
Does anyone know if the 800 series has a fan?

I believe not. but I know sure that lowest model, SDG805,  do not have fan. (as also SDG1010 and SDG1005 do not have)

(I have one SDG805 for analyze,  disassemble, assemble and after then use for demo/promotion purposes if it is still ok after all handling and proof tests. Time when I buy it, all other models was sold out and I did not want wait. Later I will do some tests and peek inside (because I need study also how to repair/service these models if need and also I do not give my warranty extensions over factory warranty if I have not analyzed HW building quality and construction and if it pass, then these units what have been in my own burn in test phase and passed I will give (local inside Fi)) warranty extension. So, after some time I know more... )
« Last Edit: January 20, 2015, 07:26:52 pm by rf-loop »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #34 on: January 20, 2015, 04:56:33 pm »
Function Generator -- Big Bumpers Extreme Edition!

 

Offline Siglent America

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #35 on: January 20, 2015, 06:17:44 pm »
Function Generator -- Big Bumpers Extreme Edition!

Yes, that is our off-road function generator  :)
Steve
 

Jamieson

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2015, 11:23:53 pm »
Does anyone have a teardown of the SDG800 series? 

Is the chassis rust still an issue on recent Siglent function generators?  (Dave's teardown video #497 is about 1.5 years old.)

thanks,
jamieson
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2015, 07:33:27 am »
Does anyone have a teardown of the SDG800 series? 

Is the chassis rust still an issue on recent Siglent function generators?  (Dave's teardown video #497 is about 1.5 years old.)

thanks,
jamieson


 I can pick-up negative things from what ever equipment from what ever manufacturer just if I want. I have seen so terrible crap things made by HP, Tek, Philips, ChingChangChung, Fluke, R&S and so on...  . Just if want I can find these and today even more that 60's or 70's or 80's..

Also if same negative thing is in other brand, rewiever can be blind ("I did not see it") and override whole thing. This looks more like normal practice.

Do you mean something like this?
(this image is not from Siglent but from other and brand new "high-end" equipment)

This kind of rust color is not any kind of issue in this kind of position. There is not "Rust issue" in Siglent equipments any more than in other this kind of equipments. Also I can tell that outer box is aluminium and/or plastic.  Of course if rewiever bias (intentional or unintentional) is for finding negative things so that peoples stay more on the channel. Media business is...
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 10:48:27 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Offline ivan747

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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #40 on: January 31, 2015, 12:43:03 pm »
Something with SDG805. 

This is 5MHz model in SDG800 series.

In all pictures signal coming from SDG805 and output level is same  exept last image where is modulation (no any other reason but this image is from other test set)

How it go over 5MHz? Is it hacked?   :-/O
(no explanations ;)  )

sidenote: 20kHz is only as reference for level and also because my Keithley 2015THD measurement is Limited to 20kHz.
0.005% THD is nice for cheap function generator.












Then break the 5 MHz great wall.








image with 20MHz accidentally loosed, but signal drop is less than 1dB related to 15MHz image))

So, for 20MHz I will show image from other test set with SDG805
20MHz carrier amplitude modulated with 3kHz with 50% mod depth.


Later play with around 7-8ns rising and falling times with SDG805.


« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 06:49:12 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #41 on: January 31, 2015, 06:04:48 pm »
About SDG805  rising and falling times.
Here two pictures where is ramp start and end edge.




Ramp down, starting edge rise. (first ?8ns rising edge up and after then ramp fall slowly down)




Ramp up, ending edge fall. (first ramp rise slowly up and then this ?8ns falling edge down)
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2015, 08:40:18 am »
It need note that SDG800 series data sheet (DQS02008 --E02A) have mistake.

1. Output level: There is only 50 ohm load levels.  Hi-Z load levels are double. This information is missing.

2. Pulse function (SDG805):  Minimum is 48ns.  (16ns information is mistake)
(I do not know with my own eyes SDG810 or SDG830)

---------------------------
Square wave function:

SDG800 series Square wave is very different if compare with SDG1000 series.
With low frequencies SDG800 have much less cycle to cycle time jitter.

First just 5MHz Square  (delay one cycle)
Then 1kHz Square rising edge and here delay 1ms (delay agen one cycle)


5MHz One cycle delay (200ns).
30s persistence


5MHz 1000000ns delay. (1ms)
30s persistence




1kHz One cycle delay  (1000000ns delay)
In image 1 horizontal div is 20ppm from 1ms time delay.
30s persistence

It need note that 1ms delay time jitter is perhaps coming mainly from system clock. (this same "wow and flutter" can see with all waveforms and it is around same.  Other jitter is is 8ns systematic jitter with ramp, arb and pulse what is coming it working principle fundamentals (125MSa/s)  In measurement there is of course summed also oscilloscope possible time jitter.
With 1ms time 1ns is 1ppm. (0.0001%)

Later more frequency and under 48ns width pulses etc. ("Breaking" SDG805   5MHz limit)




« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:48:37 am by rf-loop »
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Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2015, 02:09:50 pm »
About SDG805  rising and falling times.
Here two pictures where is ramp start and end edge.



Ramp down, starting edge rise. (first ?8ns rising edge up and after then ramp fall slowly down)



Ramp up, ending edge fall. (first ramp rise slowly up and then this ?8ns falling edge down)

As far as I can tell, the edge is not actually measured in those pictures, and the timebase is too slow to make it easy and accurate to measure it visually. So, yes, we can see it doesn't ring (mostly because of good termination, not the generator itself, which I am sure it's good), but we cannot see how fast it actually rises.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 02:11:48 pm by ivan747 »
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2015, 02:13:51 pm »
How it go over 5MHz? Is it hacked?   :-/O
(no explanations ;)  )

 :-\ Well, it's a nice experiment for you, but not much for everyone else.
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2015, 02:15:03 pm »
It need note that SDG800 series data sheet (DQS02008 --E02A) have mistake.

1. Output level: There is only 50 ohm load levels.  Hi-Z load levels are double. This information is missing.

2. Pulse function (SDG805):  Minimum is 48ns.  (16ns information is mistake)
(I do not know with my own eyes SDG810 or SDG830)

---------------------------
Square wave function:

SDG800 series Square wave is very different if compare with SDG1000 series.
With low frequencies SDG800 have much less cycle to cycle time jitter.

First just 5MHz Square  (delay one cycle)
Then 1kHz Square rising edge and here delay 1ms (delay agen one cycle)

5MHz One cycle delay (200ns).
30s persistence

5MHz 1000000ns delay. (1ms)
30s persistence


1kHz One cycle delay  (1000000ns delay)
In image 1 horizontal div is 20ppm from 1ms time delay.
30s persistence

It need note that 1ms delay time jitter is perhaps coming mainly from system clock. (this same "wow and flutter" can see with all waveforms and it is around same.  Other jitter is is 8ns systematic jitter with ramp, arb and pulse what is coming it working principle fundamentals (125MSa/s)  In measurement there is of course summed also oscilloscope possible time jitter.
With 1ms time 1ns is 1ppm. (0.0001%)

Later more frequency and under 48ns width pulses etc. ("Breaking" SDG805   5MHz limit)

Thanks for that info.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2015, 07:41:42 pm »
About SDG805  rising and falling times.
Here two pictures where is ramp start and end edge.



Ramp down, starting edge rise. (first ?8ns rising edge up and after then ramp fall slowly down)



Ramp up, ending edge fall. (first ramp rise slowly up and then this ?8ns falling edge down)

As far as I can tell, the edge is not actually measured in those pictures, and the timebase is too slow to make it easy and accurate to measure it visually. So, yes, we can see it doesn't ring (mostly because of good termination, not the generator itself, which I am sure it's good), but we cannot see how fast it actually rises.

Edge is not there measured but with enough accuracy my eyes can see it is around 8ns what is enough accurate to tell in this case.

Top and bottom "ringing" (most part of it) come from SDG800 (internal system filter what is compromise between many things) . (this kind of risetime do not need any special transfer line matching more than good quality coax and oscilloscope input 50ohm "impedance" what really is not at all 50ohm impedance exept with DC. But still better than nothing and for this pulse shape well enough.  Situation is very different if we have fast rising edge what really have high amount of harmonics, and more than scope can handle. But here we have highly lp filtered signal (with reasons)

Here two images for better estimate more accurate risetime if it is needed.
(note delays - 0ne cycle for look cycle - cycle time jitter. This 8ns "jumping" and how it is distributed statistically depends frequency and how it need adjust it. (because this is "simple machine"))

« Last Edit: February 01, 2015, 08:15:36 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2015, 08:23:44 pm »
Thanks for the valuable info. A lot of things are missing for the SDG800 series, so thank you  :-+
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #48 on: February 02, 2015, 08:42:14 am »
How it go over 5MHz? Is it hacked?   :-/O
(no explanations ;)  )

 :-\ Well, it's a nice experiment for you, but not much for everyone else.

Now some explanation..

It is for everyone. It need only "hack" factory shipping carton and take SDG out and next step is RTFM and use.

Arb memory lenght is 16384 points as told in manual and specifications.
Arb max frequency setting is 5MHz. Nowhere is told Arb produced maximum frequenxcy is 5MHz.

IF Arb frequency setting is 5MHz and Arb memory contain 1 cycle of sinewave output is 5MHz sinewave.

No one have told that Arb memory can contain only one cycle. It is for free waveforms - arbitrary waveforms.  If this Arb memory waveform  is 2 cycle of sinewave then 5MHz arb freq setting give out 10MHz.

For this, attached 2Xsine.csv.txt
For "first time" users: Just download it, do not make any changes but rename it: 2Xsine.csv. Save it it to USB stick and reaad it to SDG Arb memory. Set Arb freq 5MHz and you get 10MHz sinewave out.


But when think and do own waveforms  it need understand what it means it have 125MSa/s speed!
It means 8ns steps.
5MHz one cycle is 200ns!
Arb memory is 16384 (14bit vertical value) steps.
Using 5MHz setting for Arb frequency means that it need handle whole Arb memory lenght using 200ns. In 200ns time it can read only 25 points.

It can think inverse. If we have oscilloscope what have 125MSa/s sampling speed and 5MHz one cycle. There is now 25 samples per cycle.  If we have there 5 cycles it means there is 5 samples per cycle. If there is 10 cycle, it can take only 2.5 sample per cycle. With well working Sin(x)/x it still can draw this sine.  Same fundamental principles to both direction, in and out.  We can (simplified) imagine that in signal generator Arb memory we have now "sigal" what generator is sampling and now, it do not show this result to screen... because it is not dso, it send result to output because it is signal generator..   In this process there is filtering and also need solve frequency adjustment. (125MSa/s is fixed in this simple machine principle)


Quote from: Chris Rehorn, Agilent
In reality, as long as the rules of Nyquist are not violated, an oscilloscope can reconstruct a user’s signal identically. This reconstruction process is often referred to as sin(x)/x interpolation. Whether the sample rate is 25x the Nyquist frequency, or 2.5x the Nyquist frequency, interpolation can be used to reproduce the waveform exactly as it appeared at the oscilloscopes input connector, removing all doubt about a signal’s behaviour between samples.

And just this quoted Agilent paper (or other basic fundamentals) we can read inverse. If it can not work inverse - (from group of sample points to signal generator output in this case), it is bullshit theory. No, it is not bullshit, it works just forward and backward.

Using these informations and own skills and experience - with fundamental limits - you can do what you want with also SDG800. Just out from box. Only what need Hack is first this factory carton and power it up.

Attached 2Xsine.csv.txt
(it is just original .csv after you rename it (remove   .txt)
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 10:20:15 am by rf-loop »
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Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #49 on: February 02, 2015, 09:08:04 am »
How it go over 5MHz? Is it hacked?   

It is for everyone. It need hack factory shipping carton take SDG out and next step is RTFM and use.

Arb memory lenght is 16384 points as told in manual and specifications.
Arb max frequency setting is 5MHz. Nowhere is told Arb produced maximum frequenxcy is 5MHz.

IF Arb frequency setting is 5MHz and Arb memory contain 1 cycle of sinewave output is 5MHz sinewave.

No one have told that Arb memory can contain only one cycle. It is for free waveforms - arbitrary waveforms.  If this Arb memory waveform  is 2 cycle of sinewave then 5MHz arb freq setting give out 10MHz.

Using these informations and own skills and experience - with fundamental limits - you can do what you want with also SDG800. Just out from box. Only what need Hack is first this factory carton and power it up.
Very nice, I'd better get some in stock.  ;)
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Offline jimon

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #50 on: February 02, 2015, 10:12:33 am »
Arb max frequency setting is 5MHz. Nowhere is told Arb produced maximum frequenxcy is 5MHz.

Sounds like overkill for me, main reason why one want's to buy DDS unit is too have proper UX (like UI, specs, etc), otherwise one can just buy analog devices DDS-on-chip solution and add glue logic to control it.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2015, 10:54:38 am »
Arb max frequency setting is 5MHz. Nowhere is told Arb produced maximum frequenxcy is 5MHz.

Sounds like overkill for me, main reason why one want's to buy DDS unit is too have proper UX (like UI, specs, etc), otherwise one can just buy analog devices DDS-on-chip solution and add glue logic to control it.

Do you think it do not have?
Here

What is "overkill"? Just normal use of multifuction/arbitrary waveform generator.
Exept that building quality, signal quality and features are overkill in this price class.


If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2015, 05:48:38 pm »
Repeated my previous tests. (because result was so good that hard to believe)

About SDG805 audio THD.


SDG805 sinewave 20Hz to 20kHz (Keithley 2015THD works only with these limits)

Signal with 50ohm cable to Keithley 2015THD and before test both equipments powered up 1 hour.
Kethley input banana/BNC adapter - 50ohm feed thru terminator.
Level set for 0dBV
Keithley set for 10 counting  filter with moving average.

Result:
20Hz THD 0.009%
200Hz THD 0.007%
1kHz THD 0.006%
5kHz THD 0.005%
20kHz THD 0.005%

Result is agen around same if produce sinewave using Arb function. And now also carefully checked that not mistake with level using Arb vs. Sine mode.

Also checked with some other signal generator if my Kethley is out of order. No, they give same kind of results still what I remember and still some (very)old Wavetek is as poor as it have always been (due to its circuits working principle).


NOTE:  With Arb function SDG00 displayed Vrms is not at all ok for sinewave. It looks like it really do not calculate it from waveform used.

If in Arb mode  level is set using V p-p it is of course ok.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Mike Warren

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2015, 10:21:32 pm »
Every time I try to load a CSV arb file from a USB flash drive my SDG1020 locks up and I have to power cycle it.

The waveform is loaded when it boots back up, so it's not the end of the world.

Firmware: 1.01.01.36R1
Hardware: 02-00-00-22-24

Anyone else experiencing this?
 

Offline Hugoneus

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #54 on: February 12, 2015, 03:22:51 am »
Every time I try to load a CSV arb file from a USB flash drive my SDG1020 locks up and I have to power cycle it.
The waveform is loaded when it boots back up, so it's not the end of the world.
Firmware: 1.01.01.36R1
Hardware: 02-00-00-22-24
Anyone else experiencing this?

Does it ever freeze when connected to the USB interface and trying to upload a waveform?

Offline Mike Warren

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #55 on: February 12, 2015, 03:33:36 am »
Does it ever freeze when connected to the USB interface and trying to upload a waveform?

I just tried it. That works fine. But I don't normally have it connected to my computer.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #56 on: February 12, 2015, 07:49:30 am »
Every time I try to load a CSV arb file from a USB flash drive my SDG1020 locks up and I have to power cycle it.

The waveform is loaded when it boots back up, so it's not the end of the world.

Firmware: 1.01.01.36R1
Hardware: 02-00-00-22-24

Anyone else experiencing this?

I have tested several SDG1000 series ands never meet this problem. Also SDG5000 and SDG800.
(exeption: I have meet some problems when I have used my own selfmade  .csv files (using example OpenOffice calc, where something is wrong in .csv file structure.)

Where from these .csv files are. From EasyWaveX? From Oscilloscope?
From some third parties softwares?

Can you attach here one .csv file what do not work without reboot.
(just modify filename.csv so that forum accept it. Example add .txt after filename -->  filename.csv.txt)
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Mike Warren

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #57 on: February 12, 2015, 08:47:36 pm »
Where from these .csv files are. From EasyWaveX? From Oscilloscope?
From some third parties softwares?

The files are from EasyWave. I even tried one one you uploaded.

What I haven't tried is a different USB flash drive. I'll do that today.
 

Offline Mike Warren

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #58 on: February 13, 2015, 12:42:45 am »
What I haven't tried is a different USB flash drive. I'll do that today.

Yep, the first drive was a 16GB SanDisk Cruizer Switch, but a 1GB Imation drive works fine.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #59 on: February 13, 2015, 06:20:20 am »
What I haven't tried is a different USB flash drive. I'll do that today.

Yep, the first drive was a 16GB SanDisk Cruizer Switch, but a 1GB Imation drive works fine.

I do not exactly(!) know if in some Siglent equipment still have some limits with USB stick.
Many times I have recommended to use 8Gb or less size USB2.0 sticks.
FAT32 default cluster size is 4k for 256Mb - 8Gb  and  8k for 8Gb - 16Gb  and 16k for 16Gb - 32Gb.

Yes, this table what Microsoft have puplished is really fun. If I look this table then I will ask. Which one is default cluster size exactly for 8Gb  4k or 8k? Or is it random variable both or just "who knows - who cares".

I have not perfect answer what are exactly supported USB stick specifications with SDG1000, SDG800, SDG5000 or other Siglent equipments but it is sure:
When I have used 4Gb USB2.0 sticks I have not meet any problem. (this is why I keep this still this practice) Knowing what is, is more easy than knowing what is not. 

If ask from chinese there need first ask. Then get answer, then ask more accurate, get answer, then after new answer need agen made new question more and more deep details... this iteration loop is endless and finally other or other part gives hands up. It is almost impossible to get a fully comprehensive and precise answer.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #60 on: February 13, 2015, 06:41:50 am »
Quote from: ivan747
Issues (unsolved)
*SQUARE WAVE GLITCH....

Why this is marked as unsolved?
As far as I know this HW related thing have solved long time ago. 
There is NOT Square wave glitch problem. (But there was time ago in some manufacture lots/HW)

There is not Square wave jitter problem. 
What there is,  is normal quality of square wave what meets specifications and what are quite normal in this circuit principle where square wave is derived from sinewave. Of course  time error  rise when go more and more low frequencies. (It is 0.1% error in cycle time Typical at 1kHz).  This is normal and this is told in specifications and it is natural. Previously there was more this jitter before there was some fine adjust in HW By Siglent.

Square/rectangle wave  (just before and up to) start of rise corner and (just before and up to) start of fall corner glitch problem is also HW related and partially origin from same reason with square wave cycle to cycle jitter with low frequencies (long time periods).  As far I know these very small changes in HW around square wave PECL comparator  have done By Siglent long time ago.

« Last Edit: February 13, 2015, 11:37:22 am by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #61 on: February 13, 2015, 06:46:00 pm »
Images clarify the previous message.
1 .Square wave (using Square function) cycle - cycle jitter. 1kHz.

2. Square wave (using Square function) glitches before rising edge. Zoom 100x
3. Square wave (using Square function) glitches before rising edge. Zoom 1000x

4. Old (January 20, 2013, 06:08:29 PM) EEVBlog member "BlueLaser"  image about glitch issue in SDG1020.
This >2 years old hardware issue is totally obsolete  but the old news and beliefs circulating over and over again, creating a modified truth.

Today SDG1000 serie is very clean from any major issues in signal quality, building quality or functions. My message to Siglent is: Do not repair a well-functioning device, it can only get worse.
(there is some minor things what can and need do if want it even better but is it WISE to push power for it. Because it IS good or even leader in its price class.)

« Last Edit: February 14, 2015, 10:15:38 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #62 on: February 18, 2015, 06:36:36 am »
I just received my SDG1025. I like the feel of it and it seemed OK until I started playing with the sweep function. It arrived with the latest firmware that I see on the Siglent site, with version 3 bootloader. The sweep function was messed up. It didn't matter which direction I set the sweep, it would always start at the highest frequency set and then ramp down, and then back up again! I played with this for a bit and then got the idea to try and reflash the latest firmware. I was surprised that it actually fixed the problem It now sweeps as per the settings and only in the direction requested, not up and down continuously. The bootloader changed to 5.....

I am now happy with it so far. The output drops a bit as it passes 15MHz but I was too tired to quantify the drop. The sweep seems to be "smooth" enough if the sweep time is set to a realistic time based on the sweep range, lin and log.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #63 on: February 18, 2015, 08:02:27 am »
I just received my SDG1025. I like the feel of it and it seemed OK until I started playing with the sweep function. It arrived with the latest firmware that I see on the Siglent site, with version 3 bootloader. The sweep function was messed up. It didn't matter which direction I set the sweep, it would always start at the highest frequency set and then ramp down, and then back up again! I played with this for a bit and then got the idea to try and reflash the latest firmware. I was surprised that it actually fixed the problem It now sweeps as per the settings and only in the direction requested, not up and down continuously. The bootloader changed to 5.....

I am now happy with it so far. The output drops a bit as it passes 15MHz but I was too tired to quantify the drop. The sweep seems to be "smooth" enough if the sweep time is set to a realistic time based on the sweep range, lin and log.

This version of 1.01.01.36R1 what is now downloadable from Siglent there is repaired this terrible mistake what they make in previous version with sweeps. (I do not remember if there was same name R1 short time what was broken, but so or so...this newest 36R1 (Published?2014-11-27) works)

Phase continuing stepping log sweep works now. (perhaps if possible I hope they change it so that with wide freq span sweep it use different step increment math) 

New features:
-Channels lock (slave follow master as master freq is changed. There can also be fixed freq offset between master and slave channel or phase offset.)

-Output load setting was previously Hi-Z or 50ohm.
Now if user select this load (previousluy fixed 50ohm) user can adjust load value from 50ohm to 10kohm.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline alterbaron

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2015, 08:15:04 am »
I just received my SDG1025. I like the feel of it and it seemed OK until I started playing with the sweep function. It arrived with the latest firmware that I see on the Siglent site, with version 3 bootloader. The sweep function was messed up. It didn't matter which direction I set the sweep, it would always start at the highest frequency set and then ramp down, and then back up again! I played with this for a bit and then got the idea to try and reflash the latest firmware. I was surprised that it actually fixed the problem It now sweeps as per the settings and only in the direction requested, not up and down continuously. The bootloader changed to 5.....

I had experienced the same issue. My unit shipped with the 1.01.01.36 firmware and had the sweep issue. Flashing 1.01.01.36R1 fixed the problem, and now it works a treat.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #65 on: February 18, 2015, 09:33:16 pm »
OK, just measured the frequency response. The claim is that it is within ±0.3db with reference to 100kHz at 5 volt output. There is no mention of what load it is measured with. I made a log sweep and recorded the screen with a 50 ohm load, 100kHz to 25Mhz at 5VPP. That is the first image. It does just meet the spec in this case as it drops by about -0.27db. With a 3VPP output it drops closer to -0.95db, second image.

With no load, or rather 1Megohm scope input, the 5VPP is about +0.21db and so is the 3VPP output setting.

So it does meet its spec, but be aware that the curve changes based on load and output and is closer to 1db out or more worst case.

I will qualify more of the output response over more conditions it a bit more later.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #66 on: February 19, 2015, 05:54:08 am »
OK, just measured the frequency response. The claim is that it is within ±0.3db with reference to 100kHz at 5 volt output. There is no mention of what load it is measured with.



"...at 5 volt output. There is no mention of what load it is measured with."

With 50ohm load 5V output is 2.5V.



Here you measure  your whole system frequency response, not SDG1000 output freq response.
Your cable+oscilloscope input is not 50ohm true impedance with over 100kHz to 25MHz band. (yes you can put external 50ohm or internal if oscilloscope itself have but it is not pure 50ohm load, not even with 25MHz. Also there is oscilloscope itself freq response. Then, with different measurement you have changed oscilloscope settings so not even these pictures can not compare with each others. If you have reference signal generator what really have flat response over this range you can make reference with it and then compare result with SDG (using exactly same test setup)

Simplified: With your test can not classify SDG1000 output if it is in specs or not with enough true accuracy.


Atteched how it can classify.  (also if you have SDG1000 with real calibration certificate it need pass this and other specs in SDG1000 calibration manual when cal lab do measurements for certificate)
(Other method is real professional quality spectrum analyzer with known level accuraacy and flatness (these both (power meters and good spectrum analyzers) mostly have real enough accurate 50ohm impedance instead of only 50ohm DC resistance.)

Edit: Added attachment image how to adjust freq response of SDG1000
« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 06:14:10 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #67 on: February 19, 2015, 06:04:23 am »
Hmmm, I see what you are saying, but I am not sure I agree that my inline load and cable are not flat enough at 25MHz bandwidth. If what you say is true, then adding another length of cable should show a difference again if the cable is at fault. I will try that tomorrow and see if I get a result that would indicate that my cable and/or load are at fault. I will also do it with the same input settings on the scope.

Please excuse my naivety with this frequency realm as I never really dealt with things like this above 10MHz and sometimes I played with things around 25MHz but not with any precision.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2015, 06:57:52 am »
Hmmm, I see what you are saying, but I am not sure I agree that my inline load and cable are not flat enough at 25MHz bandwidth. If what you say is true, then adding another length of cable should show a difference again if the cable is at fault. I will try that tomorrow and see if I get a result that would indicate that my cable and/or load are at fault. I will also do it with the same input settings on the scope.

Please excuse my naivety with this frequency realm as I never really dealt with things like this above 10MHz and sometimes I played with things around 25MHz but not with any precision.

You can not really check your load impedance with changing cable lenght. You may see some change but can not classify what is really going on. Your test method is somehow ok, this I do not push to garbage.  But your test accuracy is not enough for claim if SDG1000 is in specs or not. You can only tell that "my setting this and that show this and that image. But starting claim part of decibels... (I can see there is even 1/100 of dB  resolution in your numbers but your system really can not be even close with this needed accuracy)

This next example  is not true in this test setup but just for give some weak light for thinking dB's and 0.1dB's and 0.01dB's

Think pure resistance 50ohm (not RLC hybrid)
Then connect 20pF pure capasitance parallel with it.
Next can not exactly do due to many reasons but if we forget phaase etc things and simply think that C is "resistance" with some other than just DC.

Lets look reactance map. With 25MHz this example 20pF  reactance is 318 ohms.
(btw with 100kHz it is 79.6 kohm and with 100MHz 79.6ohm)

Lets do deep simplification. 50ohm parallel with 318 ohm is 43.2ohm. 
Is your load impedance now 50ohm. Not. What it means  with dB's. (you can calculate)

(in real system there may be things what make situation more or less bad due to other R and LC reactances in total setup. Example: Oscilloscope input is RLC hybrid... there is RLC Network what may or may not affect more os less with different frequencies together with cable)

In real life things are much more complex. Due to other reactances of course.
This kind of "simply thinking calculkation" give only imagine what may happend and if it affect lot of or perhaps less. But it is well enough for tell that 0.01dB's are sure total garbage.
 
Oscilloscope like Rigol (and most of other simplemachines) do have only 50ohm +/- something resistor connected parallel with input by relay. It is not true 50ohm impedance over freq span.  HF power meters heads are totally different "animals" and also example good spectrum analyzer inputs. And even more bad it go if we use  coaxial T and external 50ohm terminator. Feed thru terminator is some amount better but still there is scope input reactance with it.

My point is only for accuracy. If we talk 0.1dB or even 0.01dB things in flatness your measurement is not valid.  Using 50ohm termination and 50ohm cable and oscilloscope is ok for many kind of measurements. But it need understand what kind of error sources it may have. And just forget 0.1dB and 0.01dB thins.


« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 07:04:28 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2015, 06:41:06 pm »
I just did some more testing and I could not recreate the differences I saw before. I think, perhaps, that the internal relays on the outputs were not making good contact the first few times I did this. Maybe now they are making better contact after a couple of cycles and everything is more stable. I am not even sure the relays I hear inside are on the outputs but there is a difference from yesterday in the performance I see.

Yes I see small differences now between a coax with a termination on the end connected directly to the scope, and the termination directly on the output and sampled with a 10x probe with a BNC adapter.

Either way, I am very happy with this AWG, at least as a function generator. I have yet to still use the AWG function.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2015, 06:42:43 pm by Lightages »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #70 on: February 21, 2015, 08:30:04 am »
Well another update. I had purchased a 25MHz TCXO to replace the simple crystal as demonstrated in the links in the first post. It is a 0.3ppm TXCO. All went well and apparently it improved the frequency accuracy. Before a 10MHz output would read 10.00014MHz on my frequency counter and 10.0002 on my DS1054Z. Now all three instrument agree on the frequency except the frequency counter shows 1 count out sometimes.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2015, 06:36:42 pm by Lightages »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #71 on: February 21, 2015, 09:18:19 am »
Well another update. I had purchased a 25MHz TCXO to replace the simple crystal as demonstrated in the links in the first post. It is a 0.3ppm TXCO. All wen well and apparently it improved the frequency accuracy. Before a 10MHz output would read 10.00014MHz on my frequency counter and 10.0002 on my DS1054Z. Now all three instrument agree on the frequency except the frequency counter shows 1 count out sometimes.

Do you have datasheet about this TCXO or manufacturer and model.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline kwass

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #72 on: February 21, 2015, 05:03:53 pm »
Well another update. I had purchased a 25MHz TCXO to replace the simple crystal as demonstrated in the links in the first post. It is a 0.3ppm TXCO. All wen well and apparently it improved the frequency accuracy. Before a 10MHz output would read 10.00014MHz on my frequency counter and 10.0002 on my DS1054Z. Now all three instrument agree on the frequency except the frequency counter shows 1 count out sometimes.

Do you have datasheet about this TCXO or manufacturer and model.

I bought one of these:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221589387690

only one left, however.  (I'm not sure what happened to the picture on ebay, the crystal is  marked MDD).  Checked it against my calibrated Racal Dana 1992, it was better than .1ppm without adjustment.  It works great on my SDG1025.

-katie
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #73 on: February 21, 2015, 06:35:49 pm »
This is the one that I purchased:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/141421463923?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
The data sheet supplied is below.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2015, 06:33:27 am »
I have been playing around with all my equipment tonight and realized the the rotary knob has a push function. I cannot find any use for this. Anyone?
 

Offline Loboscope

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #75 on: February 25, 2015, 09:55:06 am »
Could anyone help me?

I wanted to download the newest firmware for my SDG1025. To do this, you need to register at Siglent.com, but the registration-page will not work for me. When I enter my (correct!) E-Mail-Adress, there will always show up the message "Please enter Correct E-mail!" and I cannot finish the registration procedure. And I cannot find any other workaround to register at siglent.com  :-[.

Could anyone help me to register or to find the newest firmware?

Thanks!

Greetings, Jürgen
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #76 on: February 25, 2015, 10:04:13 am »
Could anyone help me?

I wanted to download the newest firmware for my SDG1025. To do this, you need to register at Siglent.com, but the registration-page will not work for me. When I enter my (correct!) E-Mail-Adress, there will always show up the message "Please enter Correct E-mail!" and I cannot finish the registration procedure. And I cannot find any other workaround to register at siglent.com  :-[.

Could anyone help me to register or to find the newest firmware?

Thanks!

Greetings, Jürgen
The USA site is more user friendly.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=15
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Offline Loboscope

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #77 on: February 25, 2015, 02:14:48 pm »
@tautech
Thank you, but meanwhile rf-loop could help me via PM.

Greetings, Jürgen
 

Offline kwass

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #78 on: February 25, 2015, 08:50:47 pm »
I have been playing around with all my equipment tonight and realized the the rotary knob has a push function. I cannot find any use for this. Anyone?

As far as I know it's unused by any function as of firmware version 1.01.01.36R1.
-katie
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #79 on: March 13, 2015, 01:53:05 pm »
I have been playing around with all my equipment tonight and realized the the rotary knob has a push function. I cannot find any use for this. Anyone?

It's useless
 

Offline f1rmb

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #80 on: March 13, 2015, 01:57:11 pm »
I have been playing around with all my equipment tonight and realized the the rotary knob has a push function. I cannot find any use for this. Anyone?

It's useless

Not since yesterday, has firmware reports:

...
4. Add a knob press also has the role of the function keyboard in store
...

Don't ask me about what that means... ;-)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg628358/#msg628358

Cheers.
---
Daniel
 

Offline kwass

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #81 on: March 13, 2015, 02:56:38 pm »
I have been playing around with all my equipment tonight and realized the the rotary knob has a push function. I cannot find any use for this. Anyone?

It's only usable in two places that I've found: 

1) Entering a file name, when saving to internal or external memory you can push the knob to select the letter/digit you want to enter.

2) Same thing when entering the license number to upgrade the bandwidth.

It would be nice to see this used elsewhere too.


-katie
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #82 on: March 13, 2015, 04:09:05 pm »
I have been playing around with all my equipment tonight and realized the the rotary knob has a push function. I cannot find any use for this. Anyone?

It's only usable in two places that I've found: 

1) Entering a file name, when saving to internal or external memory you can push the knob to select the letter/digit you want to enter.

2) Same thing when entering the license number to upgrade the bandwidth.

It would be nice to see this used elsewhere too.

Not even that used to work a couple of months back. I wonder what took them so long...  ::)  :palm:
 

Offline targit

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #83 on: March 20, 2015, 12:59:54 pm »
Hi, I just got a new SDG830 today. One of the jobs I wanted it for was to setup an HF radio receiver, using some fixed value external attenuators I can get a useful output level and the FM, AM DSB are great, but it seems you cant have a modulated output whilst varying the output level(with the knob), I have to keep changing between screens to set the level, then turn the modulation back on. Am I missing something? or is there just no way to wind the output up and down whilst its modulated (I only used an analogue sig. gen. for this job before).
Apart from this it seems to be a great unit, good build and user interface.
Cheers.
Brett.
 

Offline kwass

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #84 on: March 20, 2015, 03:22:48 pm »
Am I missing something? or is there just no way to wind the output up and down whilst its modulated (I only used an analogue sig. gen. for this job before).

Yes, I think you're missing something.  I have a SDG1025 which I think should be identical to 830 with the exception of an additional channel.  Once you're turned on the modulation press the waveform key (SIN, SQUARE, etc.) then press the amplitude key.  Now you can adjust the amplitude with the knob and the left/right arrow keys as needed.

-katie
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #85 on: March 20, 2015, 03:31:52 pm »
Hi, I just got a new SDG830 today. One of the jobs I wanted it for was to setup an HF radio receiver, using some fixed value external attenuators I can get a useful output level and the FM, AM DSB are great, but it seems you cant have a modulated output whilst varying the output level(with the knob), I have to keep changing between screens to set the level, then turn the modulation back on. Am I missing something? or is there just no way to wind the output up and down whilst its modulated (I only used an analogue sig. gen. for this job before).
Apart from this it seems to be a great unit, good build and user interface.
Cheers.
Brett.

To change the amplitude of the modulated signal you have to go back to the unmodulated signal. I know, it's a big oversight. I think there is no space left on the screen for it. Perhaps you could build some variable attenuators for it?
 

Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #86 on: March 20, 2015, 06:08:06 pm »
Hope someone here can offer advice.

Got a second hand (no warranty) SDG1025. When I bought it looked like a brand new  :)  (original box, still in the original plastic bag neatly packed).

Got the latest Firmware (37R2) installed, did the "Self Test" and "Self Calibration", but still have the same problem - there is no signal on any output, just some DC value that I can change changing the offset value, but can't find direct relationship between the offset value selected and offset value actually measured.

And yes, I did turn the CH1/CH2 on :) I only tested Sin Wave, just guessing it will be the same with other wave forms.

Counter does not register anything connected to CH2 either.

I'm getting ready to open the box and check some of test points listed in the Service Manual, but information there is very limited, so I hope some of you on this board can offer some suggestions what to do/try.

Thanks!
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #87 on: March 20, 2015, 06:58:48 pm »
I'd check the power supplies and signal path. Just follow the components from the output connector. A lot of equipment can be repaired with a scope and some persistance.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #88 on: March 20, 2015, 07:15:35 pm »
Hope someone here can offer advice.

Got a second hand (no warranty) SDG1025. When I bought it looked like a brand new  :)  (original box, still in the original plastic bag neatly packed).

Got the latest Firmware (37R2) installed, did the "Self Test" and "Self Calibration", but still have the same problem - there is no signal on any output, just some DC value that I can change changing the offset value, but can't find direct relationship between the offset value selected and offset value actually measured.

And yes, I did turn the CH1/CH2 on :) I only tested Sin Wave, just guessing it will be the same with other wave forms.

Counter does not register anything connected to CH2 either.

I'm getting ready to open the box and check some of test points listed in the Service Manual, but information there is very limited, so I hope some of you on this board can offer some suggestions what to do/try.

Thanks!
Please put your country flag in your profile.

How long have you had this unit?
You say it has no warranty but Siglent has a 3 yr warranty, is it older than this?

IIRC they have a Default setting, have you tried it?
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Offline targit

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #89 on: March 21, 2015, 12:04:21 am »
Am I missing something? or is there just no way to wind the output up and down whilst its modulated (I only used an analogue sig. gen. for this job before).

Yes, I think you're missing something.  I have a SDG1025 which I think should be identical to 830 with the exception of an additional channel.  Once you're turned on the modulation press the waveform key (SIN, SQUARE, etc.) then press the amplitude key.  Now you can adjust the amplitude with the knob and the left/right arrow keys as needed.

Thanks for that! Works exactly as you say, makes tuning up a receiver much easier. Now I am even happier with my new toy  :D
Cheers!
Brett.
 

Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #90 on: March 21, 2015, 06:31:56 am »
I'd check the power supplies and signal path. Just follow the components from the output connector. A lot of equipment can be repaired with a scope and some persistance.

Will give it a try. TO my surprise I found the Service Manual on their web site - will sure help opening the box and finding test points to begin with
 

Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #91 on: March 21, 2015, 06:40:52 am »
Please put your country flag in your profile.

How long have you had this unit?
You say it has no warranty but Siglent has a 3 yr warranty, is it older than this?

IIRC they have a Default setting, have you tried it?

Was in a hurry to find the password so I posted without being logged in. Location Chicago, IL.

Got the unit second hand, in original box, looked like never opened before, but no proof of purchase/invoice in the box. The company that went belly up sold bunch of stuff without spending time on making a future owner covered :)

I did the "Default" settings as well, not much help.

I sent an e-mail to Siglent US and got response within couple of hours asking for some additional details. If they won't take it as unit under the warranty, I'll take a look inside some time the next week

 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #92 on: March 21, 2015, 07:53:54 am »
Please put your country flag in your profile.

How long have you had this unit?
You say it has no warranty but Siglent has a 3 yr warranty, is it older than this?

IIRC they have a Default setting, have you tried it?

Was in a hurry to find the password so I posted without being logged in. Location Chicago, IL.

Got the unit second hand, in original box, looked like never opened before, but no proof of purchase/invoice in the box. The company that went belly up sold bunch of stuff without spending time on making a future owner covered :)

I did the "Default" settings as well, not much help.

I sent an e-mail to Siglent US and got response within couple of hours asking for some additional details. If they won't take it as unit under the warranty, I'll take a look inside some time the next week

Serial number prefix tell time of manufacturing.
You can leave 3 last digits out and previous digits tell time (I think Siglent know even manufacture "lot" with this) 
Corrected typemismatch: Of course 4 digits.

Do not yet update FW before check how old it is out from box

What are FW and HW versions what it display just out from box?

This is if  can suspect that this unit have been very long time untouched in this company stock. SDG1000 series was first lauched March, 2011.
In this case there is perhaps very old FW and these very very old FW's perhaps need intermediate update(s) before current available FW's.  (I'm still surprised that Siglent do not warn about it on the download side, perhaps they believe there can not be so old units without updated FW)
« Last Edit: March 21, 2015, 07:59:44 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #93 on: March 21, 2015, 04:03:07 pm »
Serial number prefix tell time of manufacturing.
You can leave 3 last digits out and previous digits tell time (I think Siglent know even manufacture "lot" with this)

Do not yet update FW before check how old it is out from box

What are FW and HW versions what it display just out from box?

This is if  can suspect that this unit have been very long time untouched in this company stock. SDG1000 series was first lauched March, 2011.
In this case there is perhaps very old FW and these very very old FW's perhaps need intermediate update(s) before current available FW's.  (I'm still surprised that Siglent do not warn about it on the download side, perhaps they believe there can not be so old units without updated FW)

In regards to checking the old FW version, too late, got it flashed first thing out of box.

S/N dos not match what you have mentioned  - it's SDG00003130618.

Holographic sticker is still there, intact.

Here are current versions
BootStrap No: 46
Software version: 1.01.01.37R2
Hardware version: 02-00-00-23-24
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #94 on: March 21, 2015, 06:23:54 pm »
Does the serial number on screen match the serial number printed on the instrument?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #95 on: March 21, 2015, 07:00:46 pm »
Does the serial number on screen match the serial number printed on the instrument?

It does
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #96 on: March 21, 2015, 07:39:56 pm »
Serial number prefix tell time of manufacturing.
You can leave 3 last digits out and previous digits tell time (I think Siglent know even manufacture "lot" with this)

Do not yet update FW before check how old it is out from box

What are FW and HW versions what it display just out from box?

This is if  can suspect that this unit have been very long time untouched in this company stock. SDG1000 series was first lauched March, 2011.
In this case there is perhaps very old FW and these very very old FW's perhaps need intermediate update(s) before current available FW's.  (I'm still surprised that Siglent do not warn about it on the download side, perhaps they believe there can not be so old units without updated FW)

In regards to checking the old FW version, too late, got it flashed first thing out of box.

S/N dos not match what you have mentioned  - it's SDG00003130618.

Holographic sticker is still there, intact.

Here are current versions
BootStrap No: 46
Software version: 1.01.01.37R2
Hardware version: 02-00-00-23-24
SN indicates to me it was built in March 2013.....It's still under Warranty.
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Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #97 on: March 21, 2015, 07:50:37 pm »

SN indicates to me it was built in March 2013.....It's still under Warranty.

Now I see - the last 4 digits taken out gives "313" (as in March 2013) - I did with 3 last digits, got 3130, did not know what to do with it :)

Got the unit second hand through liquidation sale, don't have sales receipt, will see if Siglent US will honor the warranty in my case. Will wait till I open it up and take a look on my own, for now :)
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #98 on: March 21, 2015, 07:55:16 pm »
I wouldn't open it, why risk Siglent honouring the warranty and you benefiting with a perfectly good working unit.

BTW did you pay much for it?
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #99 on: March 21, 2015, 07:56:05 pm »


In regards to checking the old FW version, too late, got it flashed first thing out of box.

S/N dos not match what you have mentioned  - it's SDG00003130618.

Holographic sticker is still there, intact.

Here are current versions
BootStrap No: 46
Software version: 1.01.01.37R2
Hardware version: 02-00-00-23-24

Manufactured 2013. It means that there can not be factory installed some these very old FW what perhaps need intermediate update before go to later FW's. (it was perhaps something like 1.01.01.13 or something other under 1.01.01.30, in some very very old FW there was also very poor contrast in TFT due to some wrong parameters)

Bootstrap 46. Perhaps ypu have not powered up it so many times.
After factory you start it first time it is 1. (After Siglent original new package I have noted boot up counter is alwaqys treseted. (I do not know how they reset it after factory tests and factory calibration)

When I sell to customers it is (typically) between 10-25 due to my own >24-48h  "burn in" run with many thermal cycles and after then tests.

46 looks like it have used some amount after factory.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #100 on: March 21, 2015, 08:12:54 pm »
I wouldn't open it, why risk Siglent honouring the warranty and you benefiting with a perfectly good working unit.

BTW did you pay much for it?

I'll wait :)

Can't tell exactly as I bought together with some other equipment as a package.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #101 on: March 21, 2015, 08:27:33 pm »
Bootstrap 46. Perhaps ypu have not powered up it so many times.
After factory you start it first time it is 1. (After Siglent original new package I have noted boot up counter is alwaqys treseted. (I do not know how they reset it after factory tests and factory calibration)

When I sell to customers it is (typically) between 10-25 due to my own >24-48h  "burn in" run with many thermal cycles and after then tests.

46 looks like it have used some amount after factory.

OTOH units I supply, I only usually power up only once to confirm to myself they are operating correctly knowing that some factory "burn in" has occured.

For anyone with a "new toy" probably 10- 20 power cycles would be expected initially, but from a lab it might get used more frequently than a hobbyist would and if their are a number of technicians the could have easily mad up that number of start in a few months.

I know for much of my gear most of the start #'s are from answering questions on EEVblog not real work.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #102 on: March 22, 2015, 07:56:23 am »
Bootstrap 46. Perhaps ypu have not powered up it so many times.
After factory you start it first time it is 1. (After Siglent original new package I have noted boot up counter is alwaqys treseted. (I do not know how they reset it after factory tests and factory calibration)

When I sell to customers it is (typically) between 10-25 due to my own >24-48h  "burn in" run with many thermal cycles and after then tests.

46 looks like it have used some amount after factory.

OTOH units I supply, I only usually power up only once to confirm to myself they are operating correctly knowing that some factory "burn in" has occured.


OTOH continue.
Yes I believe factory do something like 24 hour burn in. But I have not any proofment they do it for every single unit and that they also do check/factory cal after it. 
Before I have worked with some higher level manufacturer and there they did 48 hour real "burn in" and more "fun" also this burn in was in made in very big oven using specified maximum temperature + some marginal over, where conveyor lines and elevaors  moving and trasporting whole aging time in queye like "FIFO". Whole burn in (aging) test was fully automatised and system drop out units what did not pass or fails in burn in. (I made this aging system automation for this company somewhere beginning of 90's ) We know this electronics failure "bathtub curve".

24 hour aging is not enough and mofre bad if this is just one power up cycle. It need turn on and off several times for teperature cycles (it made also mechanical stress example for big BGA chips.)

(Here I can say that with Owon I did allways 72hour burn in (aging) using also mechanical shocks and external heating, until I  get enough experience and drop it to 48hour)

Reason why I do is that I do not want that any single customer get lemon. If equipmen have survived my test, probability to failure in first months and years is much less than without this.  Also, this I can do because I do not sell for for get money for living. I have enough.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2015, 08:00:43 am by rf-loop »
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Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #103 on: March 26, 2015, 03:20:49 pm »
Just got a SDG1025 in, and it seems really nicely made for the price. No disappointments at all so far!  :-+  Can't wait to tear into it this weekend!  RF-Loop  -  I see the SDG 800 had very good THD numbers. Did you try the same with the SDG1000 units?

also, I read that the SDG800 does better with square waves at lower freq due to a different approach. Are their other negative hits for using the SDG800's square wave approach, or pluses for using the SDG1000 comparator approach?
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 03:26:29 pm by Wmacky »
 

Offline commongrounder

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #104 on: March 27, 2015, 05:06:19 pm »
I was also impressed with the low distortion from the SDG800 series.  The SDG1000 series doesn't do as well.  I measured my SDG1005 using my Tektronix AA501 distortion analyzer (residual distortion .0008%, 100khz bandwidth,  RMS reading).

Output #1:
1khz frequency @ 1 volt RMS:  .0879%  THD+N
1khz frequency @ 6.5volt RMS, (max. output, 600 ohm ref.):  .0569% THD+N

Output #2:
1khz frequency @1 volt RMS: .0758% THD+N
1khz frequency @1.958 volt RMS, (max. output, 600 ohm ref.): .0381% THD+N

Interesting that the number two output has lower distortion.  The drive circuit, although lower in output, appears cleaner.   I wish I could get my hands on an SDG 800 unit to compare/corroborate RF-Loops findings, using my setup.
Here is a screen shot of the residual distortion output of the analyzer for the output #1 at full output.
 

Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #105 on: March 27, 2015, 05:24:29 pm »
That is rather interesting, as I was led to believe that the SDG1000 models were the better units. Perhaps the 800's are the ones to get?  Do they have any disadvantages other than being single  channel? I've read another report showing figures much the same as yours. It would be nice to see both units tested together as you suggest.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2015, 06:01:46 pm by Wmacky »
 

Offline commongrounder

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #106 on: March 27, 2015, 06:01:38 pm »
Well, I suppose "better" depends on your perspective and needs.  The SDG1000 series has been around longer, but has two independent (or couple-able, phase shiftable) outputs. The SDG800 series uses newer technology borrowed from the SDG5000 series generators (Easypulse), but with a single output.  I personally don't expect to use a function generator for distortion measurements, so the higher distortion is acceptable to me (my old analog B&K FG had a THD rating of .5%, so things are much improved, in any case).  Level flatness is as good as my Tektronix FG and SG generators, so no complaint there.  I guess if you want the low distortion, and output flexibility, with a Siglent, you have to go to the SDG5000 series.
 

Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #107 on: March 27, 2015, 06:07:34 pm »
Yeah, your right. The 1000 numbers aren't that bad, just a little disappointing after seeing how great the cheaper 800 did......
 

Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #108 on: March 28, 2015, 03:52:40 am »
Hmmmm.



I was kinda expecting a cleaner square wave?   This was at 4Vpp and 1MHZ.




 

Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #109 on: March 28, 2015, 05:07:33 am »
Geez! Nevermind.    :palm:

A proper 50ohm cable rather than 75, and setting the DSO to a 50ohm termination seems to have neatened up the square wave rather nicely.




 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #110 on: April 04, 2015, 02:08:10 pm »
Here some test results from THD measurements.



« Last Edit: April 04, 2015, 02:15:17 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #111 on: April 04, 2015, 04:43:02 pm »
Thank you this is great info. Now we need the Rigol 1022 to get the whole picture!  ;)
 

Offline rman_nl

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #112 on: April 04, 2015, 04:45:58 pm »
I can create a dc signal on my sdg1010. Can I use this as a power supply for my small and low voltage (0 -5V) electronic (breadboard) experiments?
Is it short circuit protected?
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #113 on: April 04, 2015, 05:18:50 pm »
The output always has a 50 Ohm series resistance so you can't really use the generator as a DC power supply. The accuracy is also limited because 50 Ohms is rather high.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #114 on: April 04, 2015, 06:42:48 pm »

Is it short circuit protected?

Yes, you can drive what ever SDG800/SDG1000/SDG5000 signal from its output  to what ever load impedance, including zero impedance (short circuit).
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline Miroslav

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #115 on: April 05, 2015, 03:46:21 pm »
Yes, you can drive what ever SDG800/SDG1000/SDG5000 signal from its output  to what ever load impedance, including zero impedance (short circuit).

The output always has a 50 Ohm series resistance so you can't really use the generator as a DC power supply. The accuracy is also limited because 50 Ohms is rather high.

rf-loop,
For the sake of correctness, I need to "amend" your comment with nctnico's - in an ideal case, the "power supply" (usually meant as a constant voltage source) should have zero ohm output resistance (impedance). With 50 ohm that SDG provides, any fluctuation in output current will cause fluctuation in the supply voltage.

If the circuity using this supply with 50 ohm output resistance draws (for example) between 10mA and 60mA from the power supply, the supply voltage (SDG output) will have fluctuations of (at least) 2.5V !!!

 

Offline commongrounder

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #116 on: April 05, 2015, 05:40:06 pm »
Here some test results from THD measurements.



Thank you, RF loop for the great comparison info.  Two things stuck out for me. One is the relatively poor (not bad, just worse than the SDG800) performance of the SDG5000 series.  I would have expected better, since I assumed it had the generator design (Easywave) the SDG800 series was based on.  Obviously some other circuit differences coming into play.  The other thing is the distortion characteristics of the SDG1000 series seems to hint that most of it is in the low harmonics.  Adding more harmonics to the Keithley measurement FFT did not seem to cause a dramatic increase in the THD reading.  I might try some more tests with filtering and FFT analysis to see what the distortion components are. :-+
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #117 on: April 05, 2015, 06:05:03 pm »
The other thing is the distortion characteristics of the SDG1000 series seems to hint that most of it is in the low harmonics.  Adding more harmonics to the Keithley measurement FFT did not seem to cause a dramatic increase in the THD reading.  I might try some more tests with filtering and FFT analysis to see what the distortion components are. :-+

Perhaps you have seen these old tests about SDG1000 series.
These are not just for audio raange but there is also some spectrum images what may tell something about audio freq range.
At this time my HP8568B is not just now available for tests (my workshop is under work/renew/move  and it is not ready and not time for it just now). Also it is not very good for audio range but better than nothing.

http://siglent.freeforums.org/tests-updated-siglent-sdg1000-function-arbitrary-wfm-gen-t5.html
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Offline commongrounder

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #118 on: April 05, 2015, 09:23:00 pm »
Ah, yes!  I do remember reading through your posting there when I was researching the Siglent AWGs, pre-purchase.

This 1 kHz plot here:

http://i181.photobucket.com/albums/x2/aghp55/plot0036_1k.gif

(I hope you don't mind my "quoting" your screen shot),  very clearly shows the relatively strong first even and odd harmonics.  Pretty quiet up-frequency from there.  Interesting!  Even so, the first even harmonic is around -62db, so very respectable
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #119 on: April 07, 2015, 02:41:54 am »
I can create a dc signal on my sdg1010. Can I use this as a power supply for my small and low voltage (0 -5V) electronic (breadboard) experiments?
Is it short circuit protected?

Essentially, the output of the function generator has a 49 ohm resistor in series. I *think* short-circuiting the output to ground couldn't damagae the output amplifier nor the resistor, but I need somebody to confirm this.

You can use it as a bias voltage for an up-amp or transistor, or something small like that, but I wouldn't power an entire project with it. Even batteries are better than that.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2015, 02:44:08 am by ivan747 »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #120 on: April 07, 2015, 05:57:39 am »

Essentially, the output of the function generator has a 49 ohm resistor in series. I *think* short-circuiting the output to ground couldn't damagae the output amplifier nor the resistor, but I need somebody to confirm this.


No need think and guess. It have been known all time after Siglent have launched this SDG.

1.
It reads here:

Quote from: Siglent data sheet
Waveform Output: Impedance 50?(typical)
Protection short-circuit protection.

Same information can find also in SDG1000 service manual specifications.



2.
It reads also here: 

Yes, you can drive what ever SDG800/SDG1000/SDG5000 signal from its output  to what ever load impedance, including zero impedance (short circuit).

What kind of confirmation you need?



If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #121 on: April 07, 2015, 11:39:19 am »
I just couldn't remember the name of the output amplifier chips,so that I could look up the datasheet, but yours is enough confirmation.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #122 on: April 07, 2015, 02:03:14 pm »
I just couldn't remember the name of the output amplifier chips,so that I could look up the datasheet, but yours is enough confirmation.

Output amplifiers:

CH1
Ti THS3095

CH2
Intersil EL5166ISZ

Both outputs have 49.9ohm series resisor after amplifier.
Simplified
CH1  Amp out -- (2x49R9 parallel) -- (2x49R9 parallel) -- BNC

CH2  Amp out -- 49R9 -- BNC
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #123 on: April 07, 2015, 02:15:13 pm »
That's it! Thank you very much.
 

Offline mmrow

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #124 on: April 08, 2015, 07:40:21 pm »
Hello,
Could anyone verify for me the following issue?
Setting duty to value different than 50% does not affect the shape of the square wave.
... or it is just my lack of knowledge ...  |O
rgs,
M

SDG1005, firmware 37R2.
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #125 on: April 08, 2015, 08:11:23 pm »
Hello,
Could anyone verify for me the following issue?
Setting duty to value different than 50% does not affect the shape of the square wave.
... or it is just my lack of knowledge ...  |O
rgs,
M

SDG1005, firmware 37R2.
Welcome to the forum.

By definition a square wave is symetrical, Hi & Lo being the same time duration. A square wave however can be "offset" and be "riding" on an applied voltage.

What you describe is a "pulse" that can be a continious stream or "triggered" as a single pulse.
It can also be offset and adjusted for: Hi, Lo, and frequency (length of period).

So:
A 50% duty cycle pulse IS a square wave.  ;)
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Offline Owen

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #126 on: April 08, 2015, 08:21:48 pm »
Hello,
Could anyone verify for me the following issue?
Setting duty to value different than 50% does not affect the shape of the square wave.
... or it is just my lack of knowledge ...  |O
rgs,
M

SDG1005, firmware 37R2.

Squar wave 20-80% works here (SDG1025, Firmware latest - i think 37R2). If Siglent is reading this: Please save the language setting, I don't think anybody likes that new "Please Select Language" feature on every single bootup wether it's in mode "last" or "default".
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #127 on: April 08, 2015, 08:39:09 pm »
There has been much discussion on this "feature" lately:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/msg631583/#msg631583

Until it changes, just ignore it and proceed with using the equipment, ANY control button or knob will override the boot up language selection menu.
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Offline mmrow

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #128 on: April 08, 2015, 08:50:52 pm »
tautech:

Thanks alot for a quick reply and warm welcoming !

I absolutely agree - a 50% duty cycle pulse IS a square wave  :)
However I would expected the behaviour can be observed at the screen of generator  ;)

Owen:
Thank you!
... but now I do not understand. Did not work for me with 36R1 as well ...
Do you confirm the change of the duty value anyhow - any button, whatever ?
M

 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #129 on: April 08, 2015, 09:05:11 pm »
I absolutely agree - a 50% duty cycle pulse IS a square wave  :)
However I would expected the behaviour can be observed at the screen of generator  ;)
Glad to see WE think alike, but it'll be this way for "general" acceptance.

Please put your country flag in your profile, it really helps when you need local advice.  ;)
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Offline mmrow

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #130 on: April 08, 2015, 09:27:59 pm »
Thanks again tautech.
besides, something I'd like to share with all of you - if already not noticed somewhere on forum. With the newest version of the firmware (i.e. 37R2), the tool button gives another space for improvement - bandwidth update. It seems that everything we need is ... a license key  ;)


 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #131 on: April 08, 2015, 09:42:38 pm »
besides, something I'd like to share with all of you - if already not noticed somewhere on forum. With the newest version of the firmware (i.e. 37R2), the tool button gives another space for improvement - bandwidth update. It seems that everything we need is ... a license key  ;)
Yes it has been spotted.  :)
AFAIK it is for future functionality.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #132 on: April 08, 2015, 10:22:10 pm »
Hello,
Could anyone verify for me the following issue?
Setting duty to value different than 50% does not affect the shape of the square wave.
... or it is just my lack of knowledge ...  |O
rgs,
M

SDG1005, firmware 37R2.

User Manual pages 23 - 25.

With SDG1005 you can set Square wave dyty between 20% to 80%.
(definition for Square wave is 50% but using this function can also do other rectangle waves where duty is not 50%)

If it really do not work, it is possible that this function have example hardware failure.

It need carefully test.
SDG1000 service manual:
Duty Cycle Verification for Square.  Page 26.

(I have never seen this failure but I know how this part of circuit works)

Other discussing is if name Square is good or not for this function.
In real it is Rectangle function where special case is Square wave. Rectangle wave with exactly 50% duty is Square wave, what is also SDG's default.

I think Siglent is not alone with this name of this function.

But, please check carefully if it works ok or not. If not, suspected is hardware failure.
What ever is failure type, if it do not work, it is warranty failure case and you need try first contact seller.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2015, 10:33:12 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline Wmacky

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #133 on: April 09, 2015, 03:18:10 am »

SDG1000 service manual:
Duty Cycle Verification for Square.  Page 26.



Where is this service manual?  I read it was on the Siglent disk, but no dice?
 

Offline TerminalJack505

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #134 on: April 09, 2015, 03:30:09 am »

SDG1000 service manual:
Duty Cycle Verification for Square.  Page 26.



Where is this service manual?  I read it was on the Siglent disk, but no dice?

See the first post of this thread.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #135 on: April 09, 2015, 05:51:59 am »

Issues (unsolved)
*SQUARE WAVE GLITCH (in brief, the work-aroundis to use the pulse function when working at low frequencies, either that or a hardware mod): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1020-arbitrary-fungen-first-impressions-and-a-possible-signal-glitch/

In the first message in this thread there is still this claim.
Why this totally obsolete disinformation information is still there? This issue is solved long time ago By Siglent.

If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline mmrow

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #136 on: April 09, 2015, 09:30:42 am »
rf-lloop:

Square or Rectangle?  There is no my ambition here to work on taxonomy area issues :-)
Just wanted to know if anyone have experienced the issue mentioned ealier - if so, in consequence, to be a proof that is related with firmware bug.
By the way, reading a manual is always a good idea - especially when everything other fails. Yes, I already did follow the methods described in manual - unsuccessfully (ie. "Use the keypad or the knob to input the desired value, choose the unit, and press the corresponding button. The generator will change the waveform immediately.").
Does not affect on the wave neither immediately nor with delay.
To be honest is hard to believe it is a hardware issue - this is an arbitrary type generator.
Anyway, thanks for your assistance ...  :)
M
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #137 on: April 09, 2015, 10:39:15 am »
Hello,
Could anyone verify for me the following issue?
Setting duty to value different than 50% does not affect the shape of the square wave.
... or it is just my lack of knowledge ...  |O
rgs,
M

SDG1005, firmware 37R2.

SDG1010 FW 37R2
AWG square wave behaves as expected, select Duty and use either keypad or rotary knob to adjust Duty cycle between 20 & 80 %.
Confirmed on display and with scope.

Try Utilitiy>System>Set to Default and then set the AWG to your desired setup again.

Let us know if that works.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #138 on: April 09, 2015, 11:01:11 am »
rf-lloop:

To be honest is hard to believe it is a hardware issue - this is an arbitrary type generator.
Anyway, thanks for your assistance ...  :)
M

It is arbitrary generator, yes.
But I know how Square function signal is produced in SDG1000 series.
All units what I have tested with all firmwares this Duty % adjustment have worked and also works with unit what I have in my own demo use.
Square wave works internally so that it still produce Sine wave!  But in this function internal Sinewave do not go to output amplifiers. It go to PECL comparator. Other input of comparator get this Sine and other input get adjustable DC for duty adjust. When DC is middle of sinewave p-p it produce 50% Duty square out and this signal go to output stages.

Pulse function, what also produce rectangle, can also produce 50% duty rectangle signal what is square wave.
Using Pulse function signal is produced totally different way directly by DAC. In many cases (and up to Pulse mode freq top limit, it is perhaps best mode for produce square wave and if want, set it for Duty %, so changing frequency do not affect duty.

Both methods have some advantages and disadvantages. 

If Square function produce without any problem always 50% duty square independent of Duty setting it tell least to me that PECL do not work right or PECL do not get adjustable treshold voltage and problem is there and of course failure can be many kind of, some component, some PCB issue etc.... rare but possible. 

I have experience with these equipments and have also  warranty time repair service and I have also repaired these units in some rare cases. (example in old case when Siglent factory have accidentally installed wrong type of CH2 output ampliviers.) Also I have investigated quite deeply this Square function circuits due to fact that old times there was this "famous" glitch" issue what also was extremely pure hardware issue due to wrong setting of PECL comparator hysteresis setting (+ some cases also internal sinewave noise.) (both of these have been long time ago solved By Siglent)

Of course also FW may do same thing if there is problem with DAC driving what produce adjustable DC to PECL for square duty setting. But as told, I have not yet seen any FW version with this bug. So, if this do not work, my susppect is HW failure.



« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 04:39:35 pm by rf-loop »
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #139 on: April 09, 2015, 05:04:14 pm »
About SDG800 series.
It have, as all SDG models, Sync out signal.

Sync Out signal (front panel BNC)  is qquite fast rising and falling bit over 50ns wide pulse.
Its true rise and fall time is roughly 1.2ns or even bit less.
Signal output impedance is 50ohm and signal level is over 2V (load 50ohm impedance)
Sync Out is limited to work down to 500ns signal cycle period (up to 2MHz).

It is also useful if you need this kind of signal (fixed level, fixed width but frequency nearly zero - up to 2MHz.
Its fast risetime may be some times useful. (it produce lot of high freq harmonics and this group of harmonics may be useful for some works.

It may be useful to know how this Sync Out signal time position is related with CH1 signal output with different functions/modes.


It is somehow explained here

(partially under work and I do not know when they all are ready. Time is not renewable resource and I have it only limited amount.)

attached one sample
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 05:05:47 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline mmrow

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #140 on: April 09, 2015, 05:12:19 pm »
stepping back to sdg100 issue for a moment ... closing of the raised issue.


tautech:
The brilliant idea (with setting to defaults) but I have failed with all exercises, using both channels. Including trial with firmware R31.

rf-loop:
Your detailed explanation convinced me - it can be the hw failure. No doubts.

The good news is that the other functions/options I have already checked seems to be operational.  :)
I think I will have to survive using your workaround - pulse signal.
Many thanks to you both!
I will stay tuned with this thread - it is very valuable ...
Marek
« Last Edit: April 09, 2015, 05:20:04 pm by mmrow »
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #141 on: April 14, 2015, 07:31:58 pm »
Has anyone heard how/when/if the bandwidth upgrade keys can be purchased and how much?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #142 on: April 14, 2015, 07:40:48 pm »
Has anyone heard how/when/if the bandwidth upgrade keys can be purchased and how much?
I have asked Siglent exactly this.
They indicate it is for "future" use.

All we can do for now is wait for an announcement for use of this feature.
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Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #143 on: April 14, 2015, 07:44:07 pm »
I bet the cost will be just a little bit less than the difference in the model prices originally. I also wonder if the upgrade process will open the firmware to the same kind of hack as the Rigol scopes. Maybe they are working on locking it down before anyone here gets their hands on it.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #144 on: April 14, 2015, 08:10:21 pm »
Siglent is already using license-key enabled options on the SDS2000 oscilloscopes. No doubt someone will come up with a hack some day.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #145 on: April 14, 2015, 08:12:58 pm »
I bet the cost will be just a little bit less than the difference in the model prices originally. I also wonder if the upgrade process will open the firmware to the same kind of hack as the Rigol scopes. Maybe they are working on locking it down before anyone here gets their hands on it.

Siglent hat off.

Of course we all are aware of this "business model", similar is happening with Hantek, but often I've wondered when hackers might devote their energy/s to Siglent products. Product families from most manufacturers appear to have common HW so it follows that BW is set at factory by programming.
rf-loop has indicated there are differences in the SDG1000 series with componentry tolerances and that dictates the final BW selected at factory. However this may have been addressed to allow a wider range of BW to be programmed after manufacture.  :-//
Don't discount a HW revision either, that permits BW upgrade over the full 1000 series range, that HW might omit the cooling fan in the higher BW models.

As they say: "time will tell".

Siglent hat on.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #147 on: April 19, 2015, 12:38:43 pm »
Do these mods:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/looking-for-reasonable-dds-function-gererator-need-opinions-please/msg579056/#msg579056
void the 3 years warranty?

How it can be unclear?

Where is  factory who keep still warranty valid if someone have opened product and done some DIY works inside equipment.  How they can be responsible about failures after this. There is many things, even ESD what may damage equipment if not any other thing. After ESD it even may work normally and after hours or weeks it may accidentally fail just because in history it have get ESD. Of course people may have even more than enough knowledge, experience and skills for do work but how factory really know it and how they can trust it and keep warranty still valid. It is like name and sign on blanko paper.

http://siglenteu.com/shfw.aspx

Quote
5. The warranty is void if:

(1) Accidental damage occurs during transportation (please confer with insurance agency or transportation company on the compensation).

(2) Malfunction or damage is caused by misuse according to warnings in the product documentation or using or storing in an environment outside of the specification’s limits.

(3) Surface damage by manmade factors, like burn, distortion by force, etc.

(4) Repaired by anyone who is not from SIGLENT Maintenance Center or an authorized maintenance branch.

(5) Accident damage caused by using a power cord or a power adapter not approved by SIGLENT.

(6) Malfunction or damage caused by natural calamities, like earthquake, lightning strike, etc.

I do not know what is official answer for this particular question but my opinion is: This is the same thing as in the fourth paragraph above.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #148 on: April 19, 2015, 01:57:38 pm »

Issues (unsolved)
*SQUARE WAVE GLITCH (in brief, the work-aroundis to use the pulse function when working at low frequencies, either that or a hardware mod): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sdg1020-arbitrary-fungen-first-impressions-and-a-possible-signal-glitch/

In the first message in this thread there is still this claim.
Why this totally obsolete disinformation information is still there? This issue is solved long time ago By Siglent.

It's a hardware problem, it's not like Siglent will come to my house to fix it. I will re-word it and place it in the solved section, but still, there are units out there with the problem.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2015, 02:00:45 pm by ivan747 »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #149 on: April 22, 2015, 10:25:15 am »
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Offline open loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #150 on: May 01, 2015, 02:27:37 pm »
Just got a sdg1020 as a bit of a repair project, you mention old version and new version. What is the difference and what was the serial number break. Thanks for any responses :-)
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #151 on: May 01, 2015, 08:03:47 pm »
Just got a sdg1020 as a bit of a repair project, you mention old version and new version. What is the difference and what was the serial number break. Thanks for any responses :-)
Repair?
What are the fault symptoms?

Siglent products have a 3 year warranty, post all but the last 4 SN digits, from that we can tell the build date, it may still be under warranty.
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Offline open loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #152 on: May 01, 2015, 09:20:55 pm »
Hi tautech,

Thanks for getting back, will post a full fault report when I am more awake tomorrow. Bit tired... :=\
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #153 on: May 14, 2015, 02:49:37 am »
Just picked up the SDG805.  Very nice unit!  Nothing on it feels cheap.  The "MOD" menu took a bit of getting used to, but otherwise everything on the GUI is pretty easy to understand.  Outstanding value.  I also appreciate it being FANLESS and SILENT.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #154 on: June 25, 2015, 12:05:42 am »
How hot the SDG1010s get? Mine gets fairly hot on the outside. Ambient temperature is 32C
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #155 on: June 25, 2015, 08:39:37 am »
How hot the SDG1010s get? Mine gets fairly hot on the outside. Ambient temperature is 32C
I thought you got your digits swapped around there, then noticed your country  ;D

I have the SDG1025 and haven't noticed it running hot, but it does have a fan. I know some of the lower bandwidth models don't have the fan fitted, perhaps it would be wise to fit one in your environment?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #156 on: June 25, 2015, 08:57:47 am »
How hot the SDG1010s get? Mine gets fairly hot on the outside. Ambient temperature is 32C
I doubt it will be a problem as it's often that warm in Shenzhen were they're designed.

But with out accurate measurements of internal temps who knows.  :-//

I've never noticed my 1010 AWG get more than barely warm, but a hot day here is only 28C.  :phew:

What settings was it running at the time?
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #157 on: June 25, 2015, 12:22:06 pm »
Yes, summer is hell around here...

I was generating a simple 32kHz 1Vpp sine wave. The output was slightly loaded but at that voltage that would be in the milliwatts.

A fan wouldn't be a bad idea, when the warranty expires.

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Offline WVL_KsZeN

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #158 on: June 25, 2015, 12:56:05 pm »
Hi,

I just got a SDG1025 SDG1050 unit from Eurofox and was wondering if I should update the firmware. Currently my unit has the .27 version. Is it advisable to update to the latest or does this generate 'mo problems'?
« Last Edit: June 26, 2015, 07:35:56 am by WVL_KsZeN »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #159 on: June 26, 2015, 03:21:10 am »
I have modified my SDG1025 with a TCXO as described in another part of this thread. My TCXO has a stated accuracy of ±0.3ppm. When I use the counter to measure the output of my Rubidium standard I see a maximum error of 0.2ppm. My TCXO is a 50% duty cycle type. The question is, does the SDG1025 need a 50% duty cycle or will it work with a 40/60 duty cycle? Does it use the clock duty cycle as reference for its duty cycle or does it only use the full cycle as a reference? Anyone know?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #160 on: June 26, 2015, 09:56:03 am »
Do you own another function generator with a 10MHz input? That would be the easiest way to check. Input a signal like that and check the oscilloscope for any obvious jitter caused by that.

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #161 on: June 26, 2015, 10:39:32 am »
Hi,

I just got a SDG1025 SDG1050 unit from Eurofox and was wondering if I should update the firmware. Currently my unit has the .27 version. Is it advisable to update to the latest or does this generate 'mo problems'?
Here's the latest:
http://siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P37R2.zip

One of the latest criticisms is they always boot with the language selection options up first, not a real problem once you have set your language, just hit any other button to bypass the language menu.
I'm sure we'd all like Siglent to change it to default to "last" so we'll have to keep nagging them until they do.  ;)
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Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #162 on: June 26, 2015, 04:08:06 pm »
Do you own another function generator with a 10MHz input? That would be the easiest way to check. Input a signal like that and check the oscilloscope for any obvious jitter caused by that.

No, I only have a rubidium clock and that is 50% too. Although it does have a 60MHz signal internally that I might be able to bodge a divider with unequal duty cycle......
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #163 on: June 26, 2015, 08:23:28 pm »
Run a microcontroller with the Rb clock, and use the PWM module to create a wave of that duty cycle. The frequency will not be 10MHz but you don't need absolute accuracy.

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Offline nctnico

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #164 on: June 26, 2015, 09:19:19 pm »
If you divide 60 by 3 and then by 2 you'll get a 50% square wave.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #165 on: June 26, 2015, 09:34:08 pm »
Unfortunately I don't have any controllers to program right now.


I am looking for a for a permanent solution internal to the instrument. I already use my rubidium standard as an external reference but would like a better internal solution for the SDG1025.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #166 on: July 06, 2015, 01:24:00 am »
@tautech:

Any news yet on after purchase upgrades to higher bandwidth?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #167 on: July 06, 2015, 03:36:31 am »
Just a heads up. At a 30.3C ambient temperature I measured (by sticking a thermocouple in the side ventilation holes, making no contact with anything) a temperature of 43.5 degrees C on the BNC side of the unit and a temperature of 48.5C on the LCD sode of the instrument.

That temperature, 48.5C quite high for a case, in my opinion. That's probably coming from the power supply section of the instrument. It's going to affect the capacitors in the long term and could overload the MOSFETs in the switching section of the SMPS if I ever stress the instrument too much.

My unit could really use a fan. I'll probably add one when the warranty expires. And I will keep the case clear of obstructions.

You tell me... Does that sound like a very high system temperature for an instrument design like this one? In a car, this temperature would be normal, but this is sort of a benchtop instrument (yes, there are rack mounts for industrial use, but I don't think it is that robust, really, you tell me...).
« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 03:39:30 am by ivan747 »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #168 on: July 06, 2015, 07:58:25 am »
@tautech:

Any news yet on after purchase upgrades to higher bandwidth?
I personally doubt BW upgrades will be available for the 1000 series as it would necessitate the installation of a fan for many models.
As for the 800 series, I have no idea, sorry.

rf-loop has strong views about BW selection of models based on performance testing after manufacture, component tolerances determining the final BW/model labeling.
I'm inclined to agree with him.

As we all know much equipment is available in several BW's in a series, with the only difference being FW. This is nothing new, manufacturers have been doing this for decades.

So if we do just a little digging we find this very recent pic on Siglent's website from Siglent's stand in Seattle, Washington June 14-17, 2015.

Second from the right is what appears to be an 1000 series AWG.... but what's an already established product doing amongst newly released products?  :-//
Could it be a new AWG......possibly with BW upgrades.  :-//

Honestly I don't know, only those who checked it out in person might.

Let's see if any members that visited can confirm a new Siglent AWG is coming.  :popcorn:


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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #169 on: July 06, 2015, 08:57:37 am »
I personally doubt BW upgrades will be available for the 1000 series as it would necessitate the installation of a fan for many models.
As for the 800 series, I have no idea, sorry.
Then why release a new firmware for the 1000 series with a bandwidth update procedure coded in? Thats a pretty major update to the firmware, more than just bug fixing.
Quote
Could it be a new AWG......possibly with BW upgrades.  :-//
Or perhaps they are showcasing the new "upgrade kit" for existing SDG1000s. It is not beyond the typical end users abilities to install a fan.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #170 on: July 06, 2015, 09:40:36 am »
I personally doubt BW upgrades will be available for the 1000 series as it would necessitate the installation of a fan for many models.
As for the 800 series, I have no idea, sorry.
Then why release a new firmware for the 1000 series with a bandwidth update procedure coded in? Thats a pretty major update to the firmware, more than just bug fixing.
Good question, but with what we know of the 1000 series from rf-loop's analysis I don't believe any BW upgrades can be applied across the range. Possibly for fan cooled or non-fan cooled models as 2 sub-groups of the range.  :-//
But if there is a new series to be released, maybe they will share the same FW but only the new series be BW upgradeable.  :-//
Quote
Or perhaps they are showcasing the new "upgrade kit" for existing SDG1000s. It is not beyond the typical end users abilities to install a fan.
And open the case while under warranty to install the fan, I wouldn't think so.  :palm:
That's not part of Siglent's MO, you don't have to do stuff like that for units to work as intended.
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Offline Macbeth

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #171 on: July 06, 2015, 12:32:56 pm »
Meh, you can round get that by wearing one of Daves "Warranty VOID if NOT removed" T-shirts while replacing the fan.  ;)

Perhaps the new firmware has more efficient DSP routines that no longer use so much energy and the fan is redundant anyway?

I guess we will wait and see.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2015, 12:58:49 pm »
rf-loop has strong views about BW selection of models based on performance testing after manufacture, component tolerances determining the final BW/model labeling.
I'm inclined to agree with him.
Me not at all. It would indicate poor component choices. And more importantly it would limit the availability of higher end models and could cause an excess of lower specced models in order to fulfill the demand for the higher end models. There is no use in scrapping 10 devices in order to sell one device. Binning after board production would also involve extra logistics and chances for human error to tag the boards and store them in seperate containers.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2015, 01:45:17 pm »
I think rf-loop might be biased in this regard. I bet there is only one or two variations of the board and that's it. It does need a fan, though.

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #174 on: July 06, 2015, 05:40:06 pm »
The 50Mhz model costs so much more than the 25Mhz model in scale compared to the other upgrades. I would guess that there is a difference in hardware for that jump. I also see empty locations for parts and cable connectors on mine. I wonder what they are for?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #175 on: July 06, 2015, 07:14:01 pm »
The 50Mhz model costs so much more than the 25Mhz model in scale compared to the other upgrades. I would guess that there is a difference in hardware for that jump.

Don't forget the SDG1050 is only 50MHz on the sine wave function, everything else is the same as the SDG1025, including maximum 25MHz square wave. A square wave is the fundamental sine wave + odd harmonics, the first of which is 75MHz at 1/3rd the amplitude, so I would imagine a 50MHz sine is easily achievable on equipment that can produce  square waves up to 25MHz. A 16.66MHz square wave will be generating a 50MHz sine (+ 83.33, 116.66, etc..)

Quote
I also see empty locations for parts and cable connectors on mine. I wonder what they are for?

You know what, I've not even teared it apaaart yet! But I know you can replace the crystal with an OCXO easily enough, space is provided for that. Other headers could be for JTAG and serial. Perhaps they envisaged a LAN/GPIB option board too? or maybe the SA1010 power amplifier add-on was originally intended as an internal upgrade?
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #176 on: July 06, 2015, 09:39:49 pm »

Could it be a new AWG......possibly with BW upgrades.  :-//


New AWG is coming but it looks different. Series 2000X (and slso 2000E)
(also coming SDS1000X series oscilloscopes)
I do not have any signs about new AWG what looks 1000 series. (of course it is possible there is coming also something like 1000X but is is just free speculation)

@tautech  Have you noted that new SDG1000 generators serial numbers do not anymore tell model! ?   (model is only hand check on the carton label but serial do not have any sign about model, same in some oscilloscopes...  (perhaps it is sign about something is changing... ;)  )

SDG2000X "TrueArb"

« Last Edit: July 06, 2015, 09:44:08 pm by rf-loop »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #177 on: July 07, 2015, 02:45:34 am »
@tautech  Have you noted that new SDG1000 generators serial numbers do not anymore tell model! ?   (model is only hand check on the carton label but serial do not have any sign about model, same in some oscilloscopes...  (perhaps it is sign about something is changing... ;)  )
Not specifically, but I had noticed some letters in SNs that had not been present before.
What they signify I have no idea.  :-//

I'd love it if we could stock less inventory and configure units to customer's requirements but unless someone cracks BW configuration I won't hold my breath waiting for Siglent to allow us do this.
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #178 on: July 08, 2015, 10:06:30 am »
Just had notifcation of new FW for the SDG1000 series.

Summary of Changes:
added boot up language selection
added bandwidth update option
fixed the Sweep error


http://siglentamerica.com/download/software/SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P37R3.rar

(811 Kb)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 09:08:41 am by tautech »
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Offline Macbeth

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #179 on: July 08, 2015, 10:33:29 am »
Summary of Changes:
added boot up language selection
added bandwidth update option
fixed the Sweep error

They seem to be the changes in the last update... I can confirm this update gets rid of the boot up language  :-+ ... and they haven't removed the bandwidth update option  :-+
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #180 on: July 08, 2015, 01:22:38 pm »
Hmmm. What sweep problem did they correct, exactly?

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #181 on: July 09, 2015, 05:49:12 am »
New update for the SDG800 series

Summary of Changes:
added bandwidth update option
fixed an bug of Easypulse (Missing pulses/cycles)


http://siglentamerica.com/download/software/SDG800 V100R008B01D01P09R1.rar

(11.1 Mb)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 09:07:28 am by tautech »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #182 on: July 09, 2015, 01:09:06 pm »
Looking good... I'll give it a try this weekend. Is anybody sure what was the sweep bug they fixed?

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #183 on: July 09, 2015, 10:21:43 pm »
Just had notifcation of new FW for the SDG1000 series.

Summary of Changes:
added boot up language selection
added bandwidth update option
fixed the Sweep error


http://siglentamerica.com/download/software/SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P37R3.rar
I don't know what they fixed about the sweep. The log sweep for wide ranges in a short timespan (10kHz to 1MHz in 1s for example) still makes no sense at all.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #184 on: July 09, 2015, 11:00:47 pm »
Just had notifcation of new FW for the SDG1000 series.

Summary of Changes:
added boot up language selection
added bandwidth update option
fixed the Sweep error


http://siglentamerica.com/download/software/SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P37R3.rar
I don't know what they fixed about the sweep. The log sweep for wide ranges in a short timespan (10kHz to 1MHz in 1s for example) still makes no sense at all.

Yeah. There's a bug that happens when you have a very wide logarithmic frequency span, where the low frequency changes basically look like big steps that get smaller as frequency increases. It probably happens because they make the frequency steps linearly and then apply the log, instead of spacing the frequency steps logarithmically. I haven't thought it enough, though. I'll take a screenshot so that you can see.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #185 on: July 09, 2015, 11:46:25 pm »
I know exactly what you mean. I've seen it as well in my previous tests.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #186 on: July 11, 2015, 07:12:41 am »
Just had notifcation of new FW for the SDG1000 series.

Summary of Changes:
added boot up language selection
added bandwidth update option
fixed the Sweep error


http://siglentamerica.com/download/software/SDG1000-V100R001B01D01P37R3.rar

This updates still shows language selection on every single boot up :(. So i don't think they've fixed it?
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #187 on: July 11, 2015, 07:15:39 am »
The language selection at start up is one of the most annoying "features" I have ever seen. They REALLY NEED to get rid of this silly and unprofessional function. It really pisses me off each time I power up my SDG and Siglent needs to rethink this.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #188 on: July 11, 2015, 08:27:12 am »
The language selection at start up is one of the most annoying "features" I have ever seen. They REALLY NEED to get rid of this silly and unprofessional function. It really pisses me off each time I power up my SDG and Siglent needs to rethink this.
Yet Macbeth said it had gone for him.  :-//
Summary of Changes:
added boot up language selection
added bandwidth update option
fixed the Sweep error

They seem to be the changes in the last update... I can confirm this update gets rid of the boot up language  :-+ ... and they haven't removed the bandwidth update option  :-+
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #189 on: July 11, 2015, 08:30:12 am »
I just did the update and it still is there. I like my SDG and I have been generally happy with Siglent support, but this is like being poked with an cattle prod each time you power on. Really they need to kill this "feature" as it is seen as an annoyance each time I start up my Siglent SDG. Not good advertising.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #190 on: July 11, 2015, 08:44:51 am »
But let me confirm for myself on 1000 & 800 units that I have in stock that Language selection is still there after these recent updates.....be an hour or so.
Have some  :popcorn: while you wait.  ;)
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #191 on: July 11, 2015, 09:31:11 am »
SDG1000 series FW update ***37R2 DOES remove the boot up Language selection option.  :-+ 

SDG1010
HW 02.00.00.23.24
Build date 2/13
« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:05:26 am by tautech »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #192 on: July 11, 2015, 10:02:33 am »
SDG805 NIB
FW 1.08.01.08
HW 02.00.00.04.00
Build 2/15
NO Language selection option appeared at FIRST boot.  :-+

Updated to ****.09R1
NO Language selection option on boot.  :-+

NOTE
The update Reademe file DOES NOT accurately describe the update process.

In short, the .ADS update file, when highlighted by user selection, is then RECALL'ed and the update takes place.
Only the description of the RECALL selection is missing from the Readme file.

This is described in line 5 of the upgrade explanation(instructions) but "read" is printed not RECALL.

Confirmation of sucessfull update can be seen in the "Edit Info" selection in the Utitility menu.



« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:07:58 am by tautech »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #193 on: July 11, 2015, 10:54:06 am »
SDG1000 series FW update ***37R2 DOES remove the boot up Language selection option.  :-+ 

SDG1010
HW 02.00.00.23.24
Build date 2/13

Hi Tautech,

   Sorry, but language selection appears in 37R2 and 37R3.
SDG1025
HW: 02.00.00.23.26

I also agree that language selection is just a pain in the ass...

Cheers.
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« Last Edit: July 11, 2015, 10:56:11 am by f1rmb »
 

Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #194 on: July 11, 2015, 12:13:50 pm »
If you set the generator to remember your waveform settings from last time, does it still ask you for a language at startup?

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Offline Macbeth

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #195 on: July 11, 2015, 01:14:20 pm »
I'm definitely using update 37R3 on my SDG1025 and don't have to select the language at power on.

After installing the update, re-booting and selecting the correct language, you have to make sure you have Utility > System > PowerOn set to Last, not Default, for it to work. I believe this is the same behaviour as the other SDG series.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #196 on: July 11, 2015, 01:30:33 pm »
That actually makes a lot of sense one reason:
This product was designed by the Chinese. This default power on function is very useful in academic settings or situations where there are many users for the same instrument. Not all of them will speak both English and Chinese well enough. (for example foreign students at uni or engineers at a multinational company). So it makes sense IN CHINA to have the language selection included in the defaults.

Since Chinese is mostly only spoken in China, this feature is annoying on the rest of the world.

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #197 on: July 11, 2015, 01:36:10 pm »
Well, chinese is also spoken in a handful of other countries, but it is limited to that region, really. English is very widespread around the world. They should add spanish, french, portuguese and german and they will be covering a big part of Europe, the Americas and even a large segment of Africa with just 5 (incl. english) languages.

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #198 on: July 11, 2015, 02:05:03 pm »
I'm definitely using update 37R3 on my SDG1025 and don't have to select the language at power on.

After installing the update, re-booting and selecting the correct language, you have to make sure you have Utility > System > PowerOn set to Last, not Default, for it to work. I believe this is the same behaviour as the other SDG series.
I'll check that later today, or tomorrow.

Cheers.
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #199 on: July 11, 2015, 11:06:04 pm »
They seem to be the changes in the last update... I can confirm this update gets rid of the boot up language  :-+ ... and they haven't removed the bandwidth update option  :-+

Same here - going from 37R2 to 37R3 removed the boot-up language prompt for me too.   :-+ :-+ :-+
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #200 on: July 12, 2015, 03:04:11 am »
New version worked for me as well. Removed the annoying language selection at startup.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #201 on: July 12, 2015, 05:22:06 am »
Yes, after I set to start wth last settings, no more language selection on startup!  :-+
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #202 on: July 12, 2015, 09:01:13 am »
Okay, same here, setting "power on" to "last" avoids language selection on startup. Great :-)

Cheers.
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« Last Edit: July 12, 2015, 09:03:58 am by f1rmb »
 

Offline Owen

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #203 on: July 12, 2015, 10:26:01 am »
Okay, same here, setting "power on" to "last" avoids language selection on startup. Great :-)

Same here, thank you Macbeth for pointing this out :).
 

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THD 1kHz SDG810
« Reply #204 on: July 14, 2015, 02:54:50 am »
I recently purchased an SGD810 and I'm very happy with it.

FYI I've posted a plot of sinewave THD at 1kHz .

The instrument used for the measurement is a Quantasylum QA400. https://www.quantasylum.com/content/Products/QA400.aspx

 

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Re: THD 1kHz SDG810
« Reply #205 on: July 15, 2015, 03:46:33 pm »
I recently purchased an SGD810 and I'm very happy with it.

FYI I've posted a plot of sinewave THD at 1kHz .

The instrument used for the measurement is a Quantasylum QA400. https://www.quantasylum.com/content/Products/QA400.aspx

Very interesting the Quantasylum QA400, you could compare with something similar ?, for this price seems very complete.

Regards
My instruments: DMM Keysight 34461A / Tektronix DMM916 / Fluke 12, Rigol DS1074Z, Deer DE-5000, Siglent SDG805 / SDP3303D, Dayton Dats2
 

Offline Gary.M

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Re: THD 1kHz SDG810
« Reply #206 on: July 16, 2015, 12:45:07 am »


Very interesting the Quantasylum QA400, you could compare with something similar ?, for this price seems very complete.

Regards

I believe it is designed in the USA and manufactured in China. The target market was factory test of audio products in asian factories as I understand.

Its great value for the money and very capable. There is a long and informative thread in the link below...

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/equipment-tools/231401-quantasylum-qa400.html
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #207 on: August 18, 2015, 08:38:38 pm »
Just got a sdg1020 as a bit of a repair project, you mention old version and new version. What is the difference and what was the serial number break. Thanks for any responses :-)
Repair?
What are the fault symptoms?

Siglent products have a 3 year warranty, post all but the last 4 SN digits, from that we can tell the build date, it may still be under warranty.

Hi Tautech,

It has been several months since my last post on this case but life got in the way of me sorting out the poor old SDG 1020, unfortunately I got it non working and I see that someone made a bit of a dogs breakfast in soldering in U55 which I believe is the - 15V voltage regulator. I would doubt that Siglent would honor any warranty on this as I am not the original owner and it has had already had a go at by someone else. Anyway the serial number without the last 4 digits is: SDG0000113.

The symptom is from memory that the waveform had DC offset problems and can be all over the place and may even be clipped. I checked the power supply voltages according to the service manual and these were in specification. Interestingly the generator has a function that can set a DC output and is part of the calibration routine in the service manual. When using this the readings I get are way off and I would think that this is where I would start investigating the problems.

I am sorry that I have been vague in that I have not given any measurements or readings but I am about to start faultfinding again, will post any progress I make and any voltage readings I make :-). I am sure that the wave generation seems to be working but I would think that this an issue with the output stage given that the -15V regulator was replaced. This is why I wanted a schematic but if this is not available then fault finding will be a little more time consuming but no less fun.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #208 on: August 19, 2015, 05:14:11 am »
Just got a sdg1020 as a bit of a repair project, you mention old version and new version. What is the difference and what was the serial number break. Thanks for any responses :-)
Repair?
What are the fault symptoms?

Siglent products have a 3 year warranty, post all but the last 4 SN digits, from that we can tell the build date, it may still be under warranty.

Hi Tautech,

It has been several months since my last post on this case but life got in the way of me sorting out the poor old SDG 1020, unfortunately I got it non working and I see that someone made a bit of a dogs breakfast in soldering in U55 which I believe is the - 15V voltage regulator. I would doubt that Siglent would honor any warranty on this as I am not the original owner and it has had already had a go at by someone else. Anyway the serial number without the last 4 digits is: SDG0000113.

The symptom is from memory that the waveform had DC offset problems and can be all over the place and may even be clipped. I checked the power supply voltages according to the service manual and these were in specification. Interestingly the generator has a function that can set a DC output and is part of the calibration routine in the service manual. When using this the readings I get are way off and I would think that this is where I would start investigating the problems.

I am sorry that I have been vague in that I have not given any measurements or readings but I am about to start faultfinding again, will post any progress I make and any voltage readings I make :-). I am sure that the wave generation seems to be working but I would think that this an issue with the output stage given that the -15V regulator was replaced. This is why I wanted a schematic but if this is not available then fault finding will be a little more time consuming but no less fun.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Build date of your SDG1020 is Jan 2013.

Many source these units from overseas and then it is often too dificult to seek warranty repair and try then to fix units themselves which of course voids warranty.

I'm not aware of any schematics available, however IIRC there are links to imagery in this thread.

Member Lightages blew the output stage in his and sourced a new PCB direct from Siglent at his cost.
If you bought it cheaply enough it may be well worth a new PCB and then be as good as new.

If you contact them introduce yourself as an EEVblog member and I'm confident Siglent will assist.
Jade's email is in the profile of member Siglent in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #209 on: September 17, 2015, 02:34:55 am »
Maybe this isn't the proper place in the forum for this question, but I'm looking at the various Siglent arb gens. My question isn't about the 1000 or 800, but the SDG2122X.

The SDG2122X has a huge memory, and a claimed 1.2GSa/s for built in waves, but only 75MSa/S for the arb gen... But the 1000 series lists 125MSa/S with 125MSa/S for the arb gen. The 5000 series has 500 MSa/S for both built in waves and arb gen. 800 series has the same sample rate for both too.

Why such a huge difference on the 2122X? I can see where the arb gen's memory might be slower so it can't use as fast of a sample rate as the built in waves, but why would a $900 generator have 40% less arb sample rate than the $350 one, especially considering the 1000 and 5000 models have the same sample rate for both? Is the 2000 series just primarily showcasing its massive memory? Is it possible that Siglent's documentation is incorrect?

One explanation I can think of is that the Truearb eliminates jitter that DDS has had before, but at a price of a slower sample rate. Anyone?

(2nd question, the 1000 series has 7ns rise time while the 2000 has only 8.4nS, again, why would the more expensive one be less good.. Is the 1000 just a particularly good buy?)

Thanks
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #210 on: September 17, 2015, 06:19:48 am »
Maybe this isn't the proper place in the forum for this question, but I'm looking at the various Siglent arb gens. My question isn't about the 1000 or 800, but the SDG2122X.

The SDG2122X has a huge memory, and a claimed 1.2GSa/s for built in waves, but only 75MSa/S for the arb gen... But the 1000 series lists 125MSa/S with 125MSa/S for the arb gen. The 5000 series has 500 MSa/S for both built in waves and arb gen. 800 series has the same sample rate for both too.

Why such a huge difference on the 2122X? I can see where the arb gen's memory might be slower so it can't use as fast of a sample rate as the built in waves, but why would a $900 generator have 40% less arb sample rate than the $350 one, especially considering the 1000 and 5000 models have the same sample rate for both? Is the 2000 series just primarily showcasing its massive memory? Is it possible that Siglent's documentation is incorrect?

One explanation I can think of is that the Truearb eliminates jitter that DDS has had before, but at a price of a slower sample rate. Anyone?

(2nd question, the 1000 series has 7ns rise time while the 2000 has only 8.4nS, again, why would the more expensive one be less good.. Is the 1000 just a particularly good buy?)
Thanks
Good questions, let me see if I can throw some light on these.

As the SDG2000 series have just hit the ground and I suspect with preliminary FW Id guess there will be enhancements to come.  :-//

Rise time spec you have quoted for theSDG1000 series is in Pulse mode, you'd need to check the 2000 series figure was also in Pulse mode.
Sorry I'm away from my normal PC with all the datasheets at handy reach but you can check them from the Siglent America site.
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #211 on: September 23, 2015, 12:45:50 pm »
In case anyone is keeping track of hardware

my new SDG1020 landed in the lab yesterday

HW version is 02-00-00-23-26
SW version is 1.01.01.37R3

manufactured Q3 2015

Rise time seems to be consistent across CH1, CH2, Square, or Pulse at about 7.5 to 8ns (1vpp @ 1khz)

I wasn't going to make any videos of this as there is plenty out there on youtube, unless someone wants to see something specific
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Offline ivan747

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #212 on: September 24, 2015, 02:21:05 am »
In case anyone is keeping track of hardware

my new SDG1020 landed in the lab yesterday

HW version is 02-00-00-23-26
SW version is 1.01.01.37R3

manufactured Q3 2015

Rise time seems to be consistent across CH1, CH2, Square, or Pulse at about 7.5 to 8ns (1vpp @ 1khz)

I wasn't going to make any videos of this as there is plenty out there on youtube, unless someone wants to see something specific

Can you try to replicate the square wave jitter issue? Congrats on the acquisition! May it last a long, productive life.
 

Offline dexters_lab

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #213 on: September 24, 2015, 08:10:35 am »


Can you try to replicate the square wave jitter issue? Congrats on the acquisition! May it last a long, productive life.

scope screenshots attached, infinite persistence & long memory for about 5 mins each on my DS1152

all measured at Square, 5vP-P 2.5v Offset, 50% duty.

i dont see any issues like in the traces detailed in the glitching thread

though the low part (at 0v) does look a bit noisy at the lower frequencies, my other older scope (a 50mhz digital/CRO) is blind to it
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #214 on: September 24, 2015, 10:01:36 am »
the low part (at 0v) does look a bit noisy at the lower frequencies
Have you tried to generate the same square waveforms in pulse mode? Could you post screen shots?
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #215 on: September 24, 2015, 10:17:05 am »
same waveform in pulse mode, the trace looks the same at all frequencies
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Offline Groucho2005

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #216 on: September 24, 2015, 10:31:45 am »
same waveform in pulse mode, the trace looks the same at all frequencies
Thanks. So, less noise but more overshoot. Confirms the measurements done by rf-loop.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #217 on: September 24, 2015, 11:09:33 am »


Can you try to replicate the square wave jitter issue? Congrats on the acquisition! May it last a long, productive life.

scope screenshots attached, infinite persistence & long memory for about 5 mins each on my DS1152

all measured at Square, 5vP-P 2.5v Offset, 50% duty.

i dont see any issues like in the traces detailed in the glitching thread

though the low part (at 0v) does look a bit noisy at the lower frequencies, my other older scope (a 50mhz digital/CRO) is blind to it

How these images tell anything about pulse or square function produced waves jitter (if we talk time jitter). 

Even if you mesure it so that it is trigged to example risning edge and then you look next rising edge. There you can see cycle-cycle time jitter + test equipment itself jitter(s).

For better than this method there need be one signal what jitter is known and amount of jitter is so small that it not meaningful. Exept if really know that test equipment itself jitters are enough low.

Square wave noise before rising and before falling edge is other case and it can see also like this even with DS1000E (in this case when this noise is like it is now).

Overshoots and preshoots  etc  before and after edges - who know what is made by scope and test setup  and what is really made by device under test. 
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #218 on: September 24, 2015, 11:23:49 am »

How these images tell anything about pulse or square function produced waves jitter (if we talk time jitter). 

Even if you mesure it so that it is trigged to example risning edge and then you look next rising edge. There you can see cycle-cycle time jitter + test equipment itself jitter(s).

For better than this method there need be one signal what jitter is known and amount of jitter is so small that it not meaningful. Exept if really know that test equipment itself jitters are enough low.

Square wave noise before rising and before falling edge is other case and it can see also like this even with DS1000E (in this case when this noise is like it is now).

Overshoots and preshoots  etc  before and after edges - who know what is made by scope and test setup  and what is really made by device under test.

indeed there are many things at play with both source and measurement

the cycle-cycle jitter seems to be bang on spec at 8ns for pulse

the SDG1000 seems to be excellent value for money IMO, but it is always good to know the limitations of your equipment!
« Last Edit: September 24, 2015, 11:42:40 am by dexters_lab »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #219 on: September 24, 2015, 07:14:43 pm »
Wow, your unit behaves quite nicely.

Sent from my XT1063 using Tapatalk

 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #220 on: September 24, 2015, 08:22:20 pm »
Wow, your unit behaves quite nicely.
Got my SDG1010 today. The square/pulse waveforms look exactly the same as the ones from dexters_lab
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #221 on: September 24, 2015, 08:57:28 pm »
Even if you mesure it so that it is trigged to example risning edge and then you look next rising edge.

100% agree, the trigger point is at the rising edge. We need to see the next rising edge.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #222 on: October 05, 2015, 07:41:24 pm »
Link to latest FW for SDG800 series:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/USA_website_2014/Firmware&Software/firmware/SDG800%20V100R008B01D01P10R1.rar
14.4 Mb

Please read The Update instructions pdf file
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #223 on: October 27, 2015, 11:02:54 pm »
This is my longest post so far but I have some good news following the trouble I had with my SDG 1020.
Following on from this set of posts...

Just got a sdg1020 as a bit of a repair project, you mention old version and new version. What is the difference and what was the serial number break. Thanks for any responses :-)
Repair?
What are the fault symptoms?

Siglent products have a 3 year warranty, post all but the last 4 SN digits, from that we can tell the build date, it may still be under warranty.

Hi Tautech,

It has been several months since my last post on this case but life got in the way of me sorting out the poor old SDG 1020, unfortunately I got it non working and I see that someone made a bit of a dogs breakfast in soldering in U55 which I believe is the - 15V voltage regulator. I would doubt that Siglent would honor any warranty on this as I am not the original owner and it has had already had a go at by someone else. Anyway the serial number without the last 4 digits is: SDG0000113.

The symptom is from memory that the waveform had DC offset problems and can be all over the place and may even be clipped........ will post any progress I make and any voltage readings I make :-). I am sure that the wave generation seems to be working but I would think that this an issue with the output stage given that the -15V regulator was replaced. This is why I wanted a schematic but if this is not available then fault finding will be a little more time consuming but no less fun.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Build date of your SDG1020 is Jan 2013.

Many source these units from overseas and then it is often too dificult to seek warranty repair and try then to fix units themselves which of course voids warranty.

I'm not aware of any schematics available, however IIRC there are links to imagery in this thread.

Member Lightages blew the output stage in his and sourced a new PCB direct from Siglent at his cost.
If you bought it cheaply enough it may be well worth a new PCB and then be as good as new.

If you contact them introduce yourself as an EEVblog member and I'm confident Siglent will assist.
Jade's email is in the profile of member Siglent in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-technical-support-join-in-eevblog/

I can say that I have now got it working  :)

The voltage readings I got for the power supply was in spec with +5v being 4.95v, - 5V at -4.98, +15V at 15.01V and -15 at -14.99 (this is all from memory). I had noticed that the + and - 15 Volt regulators were replaced. All my signals on channel 1 had a massive 10V offset if the P-P voltage was over 900 mV I also had clipping on sine waves. The DC offset would jump to positive or negative depending on what p-p voltage was set and all of my wave forms were only 1v p-p. Channel 2 was the same but had 5v offset.

I also had no square wave output on either channels, so this is what I had to start with. To fix this my initial approach was to do the following.

1. Work how the wave forms are generated and handled in the output stage
2. Work out how the DC offset is generated
3. go through the fault finding part of the service manual

I decided to go with the service manual and found something interesting, when looking at TA15 and TA16 these were well bellow spec when measuring with something like 500mV p-p. However if I power cycled and pressed no buttons then the waveform amplitude would be in specification. As soon as the output enable for channel 1 or 2 was pressed TA15 and TA16 would drop down to 500mV p-p. I thought this may have something wrong with the output stage loading these signals down but this was not the case as I had removed next op-amp in the circuit and I would be surprised if both channels were loading their wave forms down in the same way.

Then disaster struck, when looking at U19 for the potential reason of the DC offset the scope probe accidentally shorted pins 7 and 8 which shorted +15V to the chip disable pin then the chip literally burnt up immediately  :-BROKE :palm: power off walk away... this was the low point.

I removed this OP-Amp then checked to see if the signal generator still had life. Got wave forms so at this stage I ordered some new op-amps and hoped that I had not done any permanent damage. When refitting this op-amp I could not reconnect pin8 (missing pad  :palm:), quick look of the datasheet suggests that this would mean that the Op-amp would always stay powered on. Really would love to know where pin 8 of U19 went to  :scared:

I had managed to get the output stage working as well as I could replacing a number of parts (some of which may have been OK to begin with) got my square wave back with replacing U37 as I think this is switched in as part of the sine to square circuit using a comparator (half of U35). But still had DC offset issues.

The DC offset and the gain voltage going to U25 and U26 (TI variable gain op amps VCA822ID) had to come from somewhere. So I started looking for another DAC and found it when looking at U72 which was a TI DAC8580 which is a 16bit serial interface DAC. This device was then connected to U47 which is a 74HC4051 demux/mux chip. Looking at test point T1 will show you the signal coming out of the DAC and you need a 1ms or so delayed trigger. I was then able to see what signals were affected by the DC offset setting and found that the following signals come from U47 (some of which I recently found out).

Pin1 is CH1 DC offset
Pin2 is CH2 DC offset
Pin3 is the signal from the DAC U72
Pin 12 is the gain setting voltage for U25 (buffered by U103)  for CH1
Pin 13 is the gain setting voltage for U26 (buffered by U103) for CH2
Pins 5 and 15, I could not find out about but I suspect they are for setting up the comparator circuit on the sine to square wave conversion.
Pins 4 and 14 I will discuss later.
 
I then discovered that the DC offset signals from U47 were buffered by U89 (an Intersil ISL28210 op amp) and were mixed with the input of U45 via R145 in the case of CH1. So all of my output circuitry was working the main DACs seemed to work but the origin of the DC offset was the output of DAC U72. In fact looking at the wave forms on T1 made no sense as these were way off. So I tried to do a self calibration in the generator and this took far longer than the 15 seconds mentioned in the service manual. In fact it took near enough 2 to 3 minutes with no improvement.

So this got me thinking that there was a problem with the calibration circuit/channel given that:
A. the calibration routine took ages and
B. The values at T1 seemed to be at some limit.

So after more searching I noticed that there was another 74HC4051 mux chip (U42) and this had signals from the other circuitry going to it. In particular when looking at CH1 I wondered where the signal from R42 went to as it diapered in to an inner layer of the board. After some investigation I found that it went to U42 pin 1. So working forwards I found that U42 pin 3 went to U91 which was another Intersil ISL28210 and this was powered not by the +/- 5V but the +/- 15V. Now we are getting somewhere as this device was poorly, the output of U91 was in turn connected to U61_1 which was an odd 6 pin sot 23 device. It had a marking of X01C and on further investigation this was a serial 12 Bit ADC. Another Farnell order of replacement parts later... I fitted the new mux chip (U42), Op amp (U91) and ADC (U61_1) , tried to do a calibration and it looked good as it only took seconds. Checked the output and the Waveform generator was now working  ;D

Interestingly pins 4 and 14 of U47 were buffered by U103 and these voltages applied to the Reference pins of the main DACs. Where Pin 4 affected the CH1 DAC reference and Pin 14 affected CH2. This I think is the reason for the sudden drop in waveform from the main DACs as observed on TA15 and TA16 when the output key was pressed. Not certain about this, but as this is now working I am not too keen on poking around with the scope just in case I make another bad mistake. :-[

This was a long drawn out repair but I learned a lot! I must also thank Tautech for their help and I hope that my little essay may help in some way.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2015, 08:36:00 pm by open loop »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #224 on: October 28, 2015, 12:08:17 am »
WOW, you have been through the mill with this AWG and thanks very much for sharing your battle, it will in no doubt enormously help others that might have similar probems.

Well done.   :phew:  :-+


BTW  I need no credit or mention, you did all this work.
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #225 on: November 12, 2015, 05:21:02 am »
FYI

Siglent Application Note for SDG AWG's.
Using 2 AWG's for Multi-Phase Waveforms:

Generating Multi-Phase Waveforms -- SDG Generators
http://www.siglentamerica.com/qyxwxx.aspx?id=1435&sid=228
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #227 on: January 01, 2016, 12:38:34 am »
I recently bought a Siglent SDG805 off Ebay as a Parts/ Not Working item. The description said it was a warranty return from Amazon with the seller being a warranty trans-shipper. As it was cheap and shown powered up I took a punt.

Upon receiving the 805 I booted it up to find that all output waveforms seemed fine but voltages were low.  However it was inconsistent, it was ~3dB down as set voltage increased until the output voltage remain fixed, regardless of further increases in the set voltage. Then a relay would click and the output voltage would jump by about 50% and the process would start over again. This was the case over the entire output range,  :-//  A quick look inside showed no obvious faults and power rails I assumed were good at +/- 5 and 15 volts.

Manufacture date is indicated as 3/14.

Hardware version:      02-00-00-05-00

Firmware version:      1.08.01.08

Before I got too carried away poking around inside  I decided to upgrade the firmware to the latest 1.08.01.11 version. The upgrade instructions say firmware versions 1.08.01.06, 1.08.01.07 and 1.08.01.08 need to install a transition firmware first but no amount of fiddling, USB stick reformatting or attempted firmware roll-backs would convince my machine to install this transition firmware. Eventually I decided to install the 1.08.01.11 firmware as is and hope for the best.

This firmware installation was as straightforward as I had originally hoped for. After a reboot I dove into the Utilities menu to run the re-enabled Self Calibration function. After this was finished the output voltages are now in spec without any pauses or jumps. I have no idea how it could have gotten so far out of cal but hey, at least its fully functional now.

What's more, my machine now seems to believe that it is a SDG830!  ;D


About 2 mins at infinite persistence.


Anyone with an SDG 805 or 810 who wants to confirm that Siglent have taken a leaf out of Rigol's book?
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 12:52:14 am by yodhe »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #228 on: January 01, 2016, 01:34:51 am »
I recently bought a Siglent SDG805 off Ebay as a Parts/ Not Working item............

What's more, my machine now seems to believe that it is a SDG830!



Anyone with an SDG 805 or 810 who wants to confirm that Siglent have taken a leaf out of Rigol's book?
Well looking at the system info pic, at some stage somebody has installed LeCroy Wavestation FW.

As you are not the original owner, who knows what  :-/O have been applied before you got it.
You also may not be aware that Siglent have been incorporating BW upgrade functionality in much of their equipment but as yet have not offered this as a purchasable option, but I do wonder if this is intentionally providing a path for future cracks of Siglent equipment.  :-//

All that aside, you did well......enjoy.  ;)
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #229 on: January 01, 2016, 01:52:06 am »
Heh, I never noticed that Wavestation tag. That may explain it being out of cal as I dont think they ever released a 5 MHz AWG.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2016, 02:03:53 am by yodhe »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #230 on: January 15, 2016, 06:30:39 pm »
I've bought Axiomet's AX-DG2010AF which is actually rebranded Siglent SDG1010. It has one annoying issue - when both channels are active, if I modify e.g. CH1 frequency, there's a glitch on CH2 too. I am wondering if original SDG1010 has the same issue. I would apprecite if somebody can verify that... Thanks in advance!
« Last Edit: January 15, 2016, 06:32:14 pm by Deni »
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #231 on: January 15, 2016, 06:36:12 pm »
Welcome to the forum.

Please tell us more about this ch 2 glitch and I can see if I can reproduce it.
Screenshots would be great if you can.
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Offline Deni

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #232 on: January 15, 2016, 06:38:12 pm »
It' simple - hook up two channels scope to it, set Ch1 to say, 1HZ Squarewave and CH2 to 1kHz sinewave. Now change CH1 frequency to 1.5Hz and observe CH2...
Currently I'm at home so I can't post any images...
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #233 on: January 17, 2016, 01:40:03 am »
It' simple - hook up two channels scope to it, set Ch1 to say, 1HZ Squarewave and CH2 to 1kHz sinewave. Now change CH1 frequency to 1.5Hz and observe CH2...
Currently I'm at home so I can't post any images...
I don't see any unexpected behaviour and certainly no glitches on Ch2.  :-//

Setup as you describe, and triggering on the 1 KHz sinewave.
SDG1010, 50 Ohm output and 50 Ohm internal termination in scope.

What version FW do you have installed?
What scope are you using?
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #234 on: January 22, 2016, 08:58:09 am »
To verify my findings, set generator CH1 to say 1kHz, attach it to the scope and set scope display to persistent mode and select time base so you see several periods of the signal.
Then select channel2 on the generator and rapidly change frequency of channel2...
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #235 on: January 22, 2016, 06:23:59 pm »
To verify my findings, set generator CH1 to say 1kHz, attach it to the scope and set scope display to persistent mode and select time base so you see several periods of the signal.
Then select channel2 on the generator and rapidly change frequency of channel2...

Is it possible you give some documents about your findings. Example screen dump (if possible) from oscilloscope and explanation what is set up exactly including signal connections.

I do not have SDG1000 series at this time for testing. But, I find something "strange" with SDG5000.
So lets investigate this case bit more. It looks like all strange unexpected things can exist until enough evidence that it do not exist.

Btw, drop out trigger function and/or mask test is nice tool in oscilloscope.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline paul

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #236 on: January 22, 2016, 08:26:25 pm »
Deni,

My SDG1020 has always behaved this way. A much easier way to see this feature is to set CH1 to 1.000 000 Hz and CH2 to 2.000 000 Hz connect up to a oscilloscope of you choice with a nice slow sweep and then with the cursor on the last digit of the frequency setting for channel 2 change it to 2.000 001 Hz.
You will see both channels restart at the zero point of the waveform, same thing happens if you have different waveforms on either channel.

Is this a limitation of the design of this function generator, could be a software issue or a hardware limitation, or do all DDS based function generators work the same way ?
 
Screen shots of the feature below. NB. QuickPrint2 is a zoomed in view.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2016, 08:53:58 pm by paul »
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #237 on: January 23, 2016, 07:20:09 pm »
This is partiaally OT because this is SDG5000.
I do not have at this time SDG1000 or SDG800 for tests.
But still I think this is perhaps useful for think this whole issue.
After several tests with SDG5000 my opinion is that there is severe error is system but I still do not believe mistake in HW.

About this one image.
Signal from SDG5082 CH1 to oscilloscope CH1 and CH2 to CH2.
Oscilloscope here is SDS1202X
Trigger is set for drop out in CH1 signal.
CH1 is 50kHz and during this test I do not touch it. (freq is not important, same happend also with other freqs)
CH2 is bit over 1kHz and then step changed to over 2kHz. (freq do not matter here, around same with other frequencies)
During this test I change SDG CH2 frequency.
Change can see in upper window around 900us before trigger point.
Change is nice without glitches. Also at this point nothing happend in CH1 signal, rock solid.

BUT then, after nearly 1ms start hassle. Both channels signal breaks and independent of signal phase, just cut off.  After short time signals start from around 0 degree but more or less phase shifted related to original wave and depending frequency just right signal come out (from both channel but here in this image CH2 freq is so low that can see only tiny part of cycle but CH1 it can see. 
Then soon after short time both channels breaks agen independent of signal phase, just cut off. After then both channels start and continue normally.
This is case with sinewaves. Situation is bit more complex with some other waveforms.
It is good to note these phase shift during breaks. It may give information for reduce area for finding this  problem living address or least what part of city it live.

I will report this bug to Siglent after I get more tests ready and better documentations. (but this is SDG5000)
Add:(Reported to Siglent with some documents at 25.Jan)

I have tested this using current and also previous FW:
Current, 5.01.01.15R1 Published?2015-11-12
Previous, 5.01.01.12  Published?2015-03-10
Result looks like same.

(I remember one old case where I find SDG800 missing pulses (very different case) and Siglent find reason very quicly and also it was nearly immediate repaired with new FW (if I remember right problem was in FPGA some timing), so I hope this is also repairable easy after know where this problem is. 
Why it breaks CH1 when I adjust CH2. This is not acceptable at all.
This is so severe error that this must get fatal or severe class status for inspect and solve as soon as possible.
Problem is now also that factory is soon shut down phase for holiday and totally closed from 30.Jan - 20.Feb. How long it then take before all are "wake up" and processes run normally.


Other question is that is these kind of equipments, independent of manufacturer,  enough reliable for directly drive some critical things where may happen severe damage if channels timing related to each others is "die or live" question and specially if signals need adjust on the fly. My individual opinion is that No. These kind of equipments are not suitable for this kind of solution without some safety circuits between siggen and object. Not only because there may happend some anomalies in signal  during adjustment in fly but also one single mistake with buttons and -  when the smoke is allayed, then calculate damage.  Least it need run enough of tests and exercises with some test setup where object is cheap enough for destroy.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 11:35:40 am by rf-loop »
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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #238 on: January 25, 2016, 10:28:29 am »
New versions of Easywave software are available:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=14
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Offline billfernandez

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #239 on: January 25, 2016, 12:05:09 pm »
New versions of Easywave software are available:
http://www.siglentamerica.com/gjjrj.aspx?id=14

FYI, I have found that the P34 version will not run correctly on my Windows 7 PC.  It throws a series of "An unsupported operation was attempted" errors.  I had to uninstall it and re-install the P32 version.  I posted about this in the Siglent tech support topic, and a few others seem to be having trouble too.
 

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #240 on: January 25, 2016, 02:20:36 pm »
Windows 7 but what version exactly?
Installed Ni-Visa version?  5.1.2 runtime?
P34 Installed "For all users"?

As previously told, also I test it and during installation and use not any kind of problem.
(I have tested it now more). 1. unisntall and clean all old P32, installed P34 = works ok.  and now later:  unindstalled and removed all P34, installed P32. Works ok. Uninstalled and removed all P32, installed P34, works ok. Uninstalled P34 all.
Uninstalled Ni-Visa.  Installed P34 = fails of course due to missing one dll. Removed all P34. Installed Ni-Visa 5.1.2 runtime. (after then reboot) Installed P34. works ok as previously.
So there must be some undefined conflict with some software in Computer (Firewall, or some other running software do conflict?), some win7 version is not fully compatible?

Ni-Visa what I use is exatly this:
http://www.ni.com/download/ni-visa-run-time-engine-5.1.2/2918/en/

« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 02:40:31 pm by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline billfernandez

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #241 on: January 25, 2016, 10:15:27 pm »
Windows 7 but what version exactly?
Installed Ni-Visa version?  5.1.2 runtime?
P34 Installed "For all users"?


Windows 7 Pro with service pack 1, 64 bit.
P34 installed for all users.
Not sure how to determine version on NI-Visa (is it needed by EasyWave?), but I have "VISA Shared Components 64-Bit" version 5.5 installed.  Is that it?  If not, where do I look for this?
 

Offline Muxr

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #242 on: January 25, 2016, 10:57:17 pm »
I was able to reproduce this issue on the SDG1025 as well.



Top is channel 1, bottom is channel 2. Just changing the frequency of CH2 causes glitches on CH1.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2016, 11:02:10 pm by Muxr »
 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #243 on: January 26, 2016, 12:47:20 am »
Windows 7 but what version exactly?
Installed Ni-Visa version?  5.1.2 runtime?
P34 Installed "For all users"?


Windows 7 Pro with service pack 1, 64 bit.
P34 installed for all users.
Not sure how to determine version on NI-Visa (is it needed by EasyWave?), but I have "VISA Shared Components 64-Bit" version 5.5 installed.  Is that it?  If not, where do I look for this?

I had the same issue with P34 on Windows XP Pro, ended up reinstalling P32.
 

Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #244 on: January 26, 2016, 08:48:52 am »
Windows 7 but what version exactly?
Installed Ni-Visa version?  5.1.2 runtime?
P34 Installed "For all users"?


Windows 7 Pro with service pack 1, 64 bit.
P34 installed for all users.
Not sure how to determine version on NI-Visa (is it needed by EasyWave?), but I have "VISA Shared Components 64-Bit" version 5.5 installed.  Is that it?  If not, where do I look for this?

It is poorly described By Siglent.
I do not know what year they get manuals and instructions so that they all are updated and easy available in one place ecatly.
If someone jump just now to train he must be least Sherlock Holmes to solve all things.  First need solve where can find information and then also need find this information. After find information need also solve what information is valid and what is obsolete and if obsolete information still have some valid information included.  I do not know what versions work with what version etc.
But I know, that combination whhat I use, works.

In history it was also important that Ni-Visa was FIRST installed before Computer even hear anything about Siglent (not Easythisandthat and not connected to USB nevere before etc)
It was, and I follow it still until someone tell exactly I'm wrong or I find my procedure do not anymore work for me):
First install Ni-Visa Runtime (link above but also this,I do not know what other version perhaps works or not but I use this version and it have worked rock solid with Win XP32 to Win 7 64.  Normally all people with Windows have also .NET frameworks all in update and if I remember right least 3.5 need be installed)
After Ni-Visa installation (and so that it never have seen any Siglent before or cleaned, what means sometimes more than just unisntall button)
After Ni-Visa need reboot Computer!
After then when all is ok. Then install (with admin rights) Siglent (and I recommend isntall for  "all users")
This is first point when it is safe to first connect also USB if want.


I have not any experience with Windows B or  10.
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #245 on: January 26, 2016, 09:50:33 am »
Bit OT.
This kind of case can use also for many kind of exercises for learn different ways to use oscilloscope, specially when we want find and analyze some glitches or anomalies in signals. Of course this is just one individual example but also it may give some idea how to use oscilloscope bit more advanced way.



Here is one (quite good also) method for find if there is "something". Using persistence. Of course we have wfm/s update rates and intensity grading etc but no need stress user eyes for watch if there just blink something.
So, this method is one first method for finding "something" what we do not know.  But as we can see from this image can not analyze nearly anything, only we can see there is something wrong. If situation is rare, just let osciolloscope do work and go to coffee.




Oscilloscopes today, specially oscilloscopes what have true digital side trigger system,  may have couple of powerful trigger features what we can use for more deep analyze what is really going on.  As in upper image we have found there is something, but example here we can see much more. Of course this method need that we know something about what we are trying analyze. (persistence method is one way to first find some kind of vision what is there perhaps.
Because we want know what happends in other channel (CH1) what  need be rock solid when we adjust other channel. We know what is signal in CH1. We need find if there change something. We can of course do mask test. Take CH1 signal and do mask. Then set it so that if signal fails inside mask scope stop and we see this situation. (yes I did it and there I see signal  really drops out totally after do freq change in generator CH2 and in this case CH2 was not at all connected to scope.)
In this position I want see all things what happend there when CH2 change and result is CH1 drop out.
Here come Trigger.
Now I know how long time drop out continue.
I set trigger for CH1 and so that scope do acquisition only if trigger detected. (So, Auto trigger is not suitable, set for Normal what means scope do whole acquistion only if it trig.)
Then I want it trig only if it see signal is under trigger level over time what I set, because now I know that there is break in signal.
Also connected CH2 to scope CH2

After these adjustemnts are ok.

Now I change generator freq and every single time I do it, scope is trigged (and only when I change CH2 freq) and I can see new trace on the screen.

After then I can adjust scope so that I can see both, exacly when CH2 freq change and this signal break bit later. Now using zoom it can also analyze more deeply.

Rigol also have powerful trigger functions so this is nice case to exercise study how to use scope independent of brand.
In oscilloscope course this lesson "how to use oscilloscope bit more powerful way" it cost least 1000 and here it cost only one cheap SDG1000.

Basic trigger functions are very important to be familiar. Oscilloscope can be used very effectively when user is familiar with many kind of triggering functions and aplications.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2016, 10:02:28 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline paul

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #246 on: February 05, 2016, 11:21:55 pm »
I have had a look at the glitch at higher frequencies on my SDG1020 and it is same as the SDG5082 that rf-loop posted, complete with the two gaps on both channels.
I can see how this could be a bit of a problem, It looks like both channels are reset / restarted in phase with each other (or at their set phase offset ?) this makes little sense if the frequencies are not harmonically related however I can understand why it is done this way.

I would like to see how a DDS function generator from another manufacture behaves, probably need to ask in another thread :)

I agree that it is a bit of a challenge to trigger on the drop-out / glitch, I tried the obvious way first with a mask trigger but found the most reliable and fastest way was to set the trigger for Runt.

(Ignore the ringing on the screen grab, I did not use any 50 ohm termination as I was only interested in the gaps / glitches.)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2016, 11:01:23 pm by paul »
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #247 on: March 14, 2016, 09:28:50 am »
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Offline papousek

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #248 on: March 25, 2016, 02:38:17 am »
@ tautech
Thank you!
i just upgrade my SDG805, does Siglent only release new FW in their website? any emails?
 

Online tautech

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #249 on: March 25, 2016, 03:06:08 am »
@ tautech
Thank you!
i just upgrade my SDG805, does Siglent only release new FW in their website? any emails?
Sometimes they email me so that can inform this community, but this time another member spotted the SDS3055 FW update and linked it in that thread.
But no, it's something they don't normally do as you don't have to request Siglent FW updates, they're always freely available on each of the 3 websites: China, Europe and USA.

It's important any bugs or features that are not working properly are reported either in one of the Siglent product threads here to be relayed to Siglent or directly to Tech support via the sales email: sales@siglent.com
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Offline rf-loop

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #250 on: March 25, 2016, 07:02:02 am »
@ tautech
Thank you!
i just upgrade my SDG805, does Siglent only release new FW in their website? any emails?

If I look my last 4 years cooperation with Siglent.

In history, there was no email information about new FW's.
FW updates need ask from Siglent. (also there was not public download)

After then this situation have changed better and better, lot of better if look what it have been in history. Still not enough if look future.

Time ago Siglent started public download center and today it works quite well  but also this need some develop to be better, specially FW and software changelog need be more accurate.

Siglent  have also started email notifications to counterparts/distributors least about important updates. Also with mandatory updates they may recommend and ask we inform directly to our customers.

Example last SDG800 series one update was in this category and Siglent send email information about this mandatory update.
Immediately after I get this message from Siglent I search who all have purchased SDG800 series from me and send email notification to every customer directly. I do not know how other sellers do.

Overall it can say that after sales customer care need develop better and better. Not only Siglent but also distributors need develop. This also may differentiate class A sellers and class C sellers.  It may be also important part of product reputation.

Siglent need continuously develop themselves, and it can see they do,  but it is not at all enough.

Sellers/distributors need also develop themselves.  This is important part of devices overall quality. Overall quality is much more than device itself quality in carton out from factory door.

Good after sales (and pre sales) customer care is important for manufacturer reputation and brand.  Equipments quality need develop, software (including FW) quality need develop, all area in customer care need develop. Also warranty fail repair or change services need develop, also repair services for user made fails need develop, spare parts distribution need develop.

Also, if go more forward, there need develop distributors and repair services product training.  This Siglent journey is only just at the beginning of the way from class C to class B and lets hope that least direction is to higher class. It is fully possible.  The road is long rocky and sometimes trees fall road. But journey continue...  we want do it better, we can do it better, we do it better.


(edited clearer)
« Last Edit: March 30, 2016, 05:45:39 am by rf-loop »
If practice and theory is not equal it tells that used application of theory is wrong or the theory itself is wrong.
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Offline hwj-d

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Re: The Siglent SDG1000 and SDG800 thread
« Reply #251 on: April 07, 2016, 12:18:44 pm »
Hi, i'm new, but long time forum fan :)

Just today got my new SDG1025, and i'm happy   ;D
but doesn't know much about this Hardware-Version.

Latest FW (Siglent Web) is 1.1.2.1R1?

Can anyone confirm these topicalities?

Thanks a lot,
also for all these informations and experiences which i was able to benefit