Author Topic: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.  (Read 10598 times)

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Offline MadTux

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #25 on: January 17, 2023, 11:03:44 pm »
How about the Hp 8165 "Signal Source"
They did not even call it a function generator.....

Similar garbage like all instruments from the HP 80xx and 81xx series from Germany.
Unlike 8112/8116, this one is phase locked at higher frequencies, but with horrible phase noise
And with some kind of DDS below something 1kHz or 10kHz or something.
Microprocessor is stuck at some kind limbo, if battery fails, then you have to set every fricking control parameter on the front panel, before it comes back to life again.
And it's a huge box with very little electronics inside and of course lots of custom chips that fry and make repairing it a miserable experience.

Had 2x 8165A, 2x 8116A, 1x 8112A and 2 8082A some years ago, swapped parts to make most of them work again and then sold all the shit.

One of the few great HP pulse generators is HP 5359A, fully synthesized, designed in USA and without parts that fail for no good reason.

There are real, great, beautiful HP instruments, like HP3456A, HP3325A, 3326A, 3335A, HP8566/8568, HP856x, 3585(A)B, HP8662/8663A, E3615/6/7.....
Instruments that are fun to work with and a beauty to look on.

And there is 80xx/81xx series garbage, sell it on ebay for good money while it works, so other people can get rid of the trash, when it breaks again.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2023, 11:08:23 pm by MadTux »
 

Offline jhormilla

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2023, 08:22:08 am »
I'll go even one more step back to my 2235. I just calibrated it and it works great. Super simple to use and after the usual service upgrades, it's rock solid.
I'll be eventually selling off all my 24xx series scopes and keeping this 2235. No weird chips or RAM backup batteries or complicated functions, just a few dials on the front and a nice sharp trace. :)



Oh, talking about crappy scopes, the Tek TDS694C..... Due to manufacturing 'reasons', the trigger chips often aren't thermally bonded to the PCB so well, and Tek neglected to install heat sinks, so these unobtainium chips that run reaalll hot tend to die.

Luckily, the seldom used 'Other' (or External) trigger chip can be taken out and swapped with the faulty chip if one doesn't mind the small loss in functionality.

A shitty failure point for a screamer of an early 2000's 3GHz, 10GS/s scope, all for the want of a little heat sink...
Which ones are the trigger chips you are referring to and where on the board on the TDS694C, I don't have any schematics for the one I have. Any information would be helpfull.
TIA


 

Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2023, 11:38:57 am »
There's some info here at Tekwiki:

https://w140.com/tekwiki/wiki/TDS694C

I don't have one of these scopes so I can't provide more info (My fastest scope is a currently a TDS794D)

If you have one of these scopes, I recommend installing some heatsinks on the trigger chips with some thermal epoxy before they fail...
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Offline tooki

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2023, 09:05:55 pm »
I think the 491 makes the list of Tek dogs, though I've never actually seen one in operational condition (I have seen a few dead ones though).

From the Tekwiki:
"Due to severe performance limitations, the 491 was replaced by the completely redesigned 492 in 1980."

Ouch. Double ouch if you spent the equivalent of $40,000 one one back in the late 70s.
I wonder if that “severe performance limitations” description is really fair. It was on the market for 14 years, so I can’t imagine it was that bad.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2023, 09:33:28 pm »
the precision power supply from HP (6000 series) has the absolute worst switch ever.

I mean the one you dial up with the buttons that everyone was raving about. Great supply, but that switch bank is just awful awful awful.

And they don't put flanges on anything, its just a bunch of crap sandwiched together like a garage door.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2023, 12:54:13 am »
I would also nominate the TDS3xx/4xx series. They were obviously a sort of learning phase in regard to user interfaces for Tek which was nevertheless foisted on the customers.
And the 250MHz pulse generators from the TM500 series - I have yet to encounter a working one.

For HP, there is the 6177B current source. No matter how often you read through those changes, mine (defective) does still not match any of them.
the alignmrent procedure for the HP6825 Bipolar Power Supply was conceived by a sadistic maniac.
And then there is the HP5334A universal counter (a capable and nice devive by itself), which, contrary to any other HP device I've seen, does not simply take the HP10881 OCXO, but needs a special adaptor board, which is pure unobtainium.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2023, 01:03:43 am »
the precision power supply from HP (6000 series) has the absolute worst switch ever.

I mean the one you dial up with the buttons that everyone was raving about. Great supply, but that switch bank is just awful awful awful.

And they don't put flanges on anything, its just a bunch of crap sandwiched together like a garage door.
Wait until you get a feel of the similar switches on the even more expensive R&S NGRU. Those of the HP6114A feel sturdy and crisp in comparison. and you can't exchange them for better ones, as they contain the divider resistors too.
 :rant:
 

Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2023, 01:26:25 am »
I would also nominate the TDS3xx/4xx series. They were obviously a sort of learning phase in regard to user interfaces for Tek which was nevertheless foisted on the customers.
And the 250MHz pulse generators from the TM500 series - I have yet to encounter a working one.

Yeah, I took a look at the TDS3xx /4xx series, but why bother when you can select from the TDS5xx/6xx/7xx series... (besides physical size). Much nicer displays too.

Do you mean the PG502 or PG505 pulse generator? I have a PG502 that works and is adjusted nicely.


And then there is the HP5334A universal counter (a capable and nice devive by itself), which, contrary to any other HP device I've seen, does not simply take the HP10881 OCXO, but needs a special adaptor board, which is pure unobtainium.

Would a replica via a Chinese PCB manufacturer be feasible?
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2023, 04:18:19 am »
the precision power supply from HP (6000 series) has the absolute worst switch ever.

I mean the one you dial up with the buttons that everyone was raving about. Great supply, but that switch bank is just awful awful awful.

And they don't put flanges on anything, its just a bunch of crap sandwiched together like a garage door.
Wait until you get a feel of the similar switches on the even more expensive R&S NGRU. Those of the HP6114A feel sturdy and crisp in comparison. and you can't exchange them for better ones, as they contain the divider resistors too.
 :rant:

lol with stuff like that I just want to put a cable that sticks out of the instrument and a control panel for it like one of those industrial crane control things
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2023, 05:26:13 am »
I would also nominate the TDS3xx/4xx series. They were obviously a sort of learning phase in regard to user interfaces for Tek which was nevertheless foisted on the customers.
And the 250MHz pulse generators from the TM500 series - I have yet to encounter a working one.

Yeah, I took a look at the TDS3xx /4xx series, but why bother when you can select from the TDS5xx/6xx/7xx series... (besides physical size). Much nicer displays too.
Why bother with those when you can get a TDS3xxx/5xxx/7xxx?
Do you mean the PG502 or PG505 pulse generator? I have a PG502 that works and is adjusted nicely.
There was absolutely no need to rub that in further!
 :box:

And then there is the HP5334A universal counter (a capable and nice devive by itself), which, contrary to any other HP device I've seen, does not simply take the HP10881 OCXO, but needs a special adaptor board, which is pure unobtainium.

Would a replica via a Chinese PCB manufacturer be feasible?
Oh noe! The Chinese will hide secret jitter-enhancing elements in the PCB and further compromise my timebase!
 :scared:
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 05:27:55 am by Neomys Sapiens »
 

Offline alm

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #35 on: May 08, 2023, 07:13:59 am »
the precision power supply from HP (6000 series) has the absolute worst switch ever.

I mean the one you dial up with the buttons that everyone was raving about. Great supply, but that switch bank is just awful awful awful.
Why do you think it's awful? Ergonomics? Reliability? I have no problems adjusting the 6114A. I use it side by side with a similar Lambda LR-613DM precision power supply which has a rotary knob per decade, and I find both equally convenient to use.

I do hate the controls of the IET VI-700 voltage / current source. Those thumbwheels are painful to the fingers and I do not enjoy repeatedly adjusting it. I guess the instrument was not made to be adjusted frequently.

And the 250MHz pulse generators from the TM500 series - I have yet to encounter a working one.
How large and (un)biased is your sample group? I also have a PG502 that has been working fine since I got it, so I'm questioning if this is a design flaw.
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #36 on: May 08, 2023, 12:07:35 pm »
I would also nominate the TDS3xx/4xx series. They were obviously a sort of learning phase in regard to user interfaces for Tek which was nevertheless foisted on the customers.
And the 250MHz pulse generators from the TM500 series - I have yet to encounter a working one.

Yeah, I took a look at the TDS3xx /4xx series, but why bother when you can select from the TDS5xx/6xx/7xx series... (besides physical size). Much nicer displays too.
Why bother with those when you can get a TDS3xxx/5xxx/7xxx?

Working on it.... I have my eye on a TDS7xxx series as soon as I sell off some gear to raise funds.  :-BROKE

Do you mean the PG502 or PG505 pulse generator? I have a PG502 that works and is adjusted nicely.
There was absolutely no need to rub that in further!
 :box:

As per above, wanna buy my PG502?  :-DD (for real though, it's on the 'to be sold' pile)

And then there is the HP5334A universal counter (a capable and nice devive by itself), which, contrary to any other HP device I've seen, does not simply take the HP10881 OCXO, but needs a special adaptor board, which is pure unobtainium.

Would a replica via a Chinese PCB manufacturer be feasible?
Oh noe! The Chinese will hide secret jitter-enhancing elements in the PCB and further compromise my timebase!
 :scared:

 :-DD
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline coppercone2

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #37 on: May 08, 2023, 01:02:02 pm »
the precision power supply from HP (6000 series) has the absolute worst switch ever.

I mean the one you dial up with the buttons that everyone was raving about. Great supply, but that switch bank is just awful awful awful.
Why do you think it's awful? Ergonomics? Reliability? I have no problems adjusting the 6114A. I use it side by side with a similar Lambda LR-613DM precision power supply which has a rotary knob per decade, and I find both equally convenient to use.

I do hate the controls of the IET VI-700 voltage / current source. Those thumbwheels are painful to the fingers and I do not enjoy repeatedly adjusting it. I guess the instrument was not made to be adjusted frequently.

And the 250MHz pulse generators from the TM500 series - I have yet to encounter a working one.
How large and (un)biased is your sample group? I also have a PG502 that has been working fine since I got it, so I'm questioning if this is a design flaw.

its a piece of shit non serviceable complex mechanism that needs service. Not even snap hinges, but molten pins. And its all soldered down at right angles to a PCB edge pads in a 'creative' assembly method. And its all plastic in there too. Every time someone solders right angle PCB to each other a la stone hedge, electronics god cries

I think that power supply switch spurred dac design because some engineer figured he can make a precision switch matrix without moving parts, and the first good DAC was made in a alcohol fueled haze of insanity entered post failed 6114A service attempt. The engi just knew deep down that management would never allow for the correct amount of mechanical hardware to make that mechanism not suck, so it was improvised, and a semiconductor fab was hijacked and made the first processor controlled precision power supply control chip. Without the 6114A, it would look like the first Alien movie by the year 2170, because they figured out switches.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2023, 01:17:45 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline W6EL

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2023, 01:00:34 am »
Some people won't agree with this, but if you've gone over one, then you know.

HP 8640B.

The supposedly ultra-stable low-phase noise design suffers plenty from short-sided design choices when it's working. Let's start with the supposed phase noise claim. That phase noise is only available if:
1. You're locked to a 5 MHz ultra-stable source (and remember, using basic logic circuits to "divide down" a 10 MHz source induces what? Phase noise.)
2. You're ok with 100 Hz tuning steps. Yeah. Because you do not get the low-phase noise unless you can engage the PLL Locker. And the locker won't engage unless all the digits are shown on the 5 digit display. Oh, sure, you can lock and then de-tune the PLL circuit with a knob, which induces, you guessed it, more phase noise, as you're suddenly at the mercy of a variable resistor.

But ok, fast forward and look at this beast honestly.

Mechanics:
It has a ridiculous linked-(un)limited-slip differential scheme going on, using plastic gears, between the FM deviation and the frequency range knob. Yes, multiple layers of complex gears. It's like taking apart a mechanical alarm clock. The gears crack over time and then begin to slip or just fall into pieces.

Then there's the slider switches on the front panel. These break off because the enormous lever arm action coupled with the stiff click-click of the slider causes the brittle plastic to snap off. You can fix this by making your own metal replacements! Yea! And then you can glue them with epoxy to whatever is left inside the HP 8640B. Fun times!

Don't forget the camshaft that the range knob operates. Oh, yes, not only does the range knob operate a nasty arrangement of plastic gears in the front, but it also operates an enormous enigma of camshaft switches deeper inside which switch around how the UHF cavity oscillator is divided down.

But there's more to hate here. The PLL boards mate to the main board using these horrible and unreliable finger connectors. If yours hasn't failed yet, then it will!

And then there's the usual. RIFA capacitors at the rear, sealed pots that need to be cleaned inside somehow, the occasional failed capacitor. We all expect that stuff.

Oh and don't forget the broken gold fingers on the wafer-like switches. Yes, instead of normal wafer switches, HP etched switch paths on gold PWBs, sort of like how a modern handheld DMM handles the big switch. Except, to attach the wipers of the switch, they hot-melted the little gold fingers into (you guessed it) another plastic piece, which of course slowly falls apart. Don't forget to literally shake the gold pieces out when you first open one of these up -- they are basically impossible to replace without cannibalizing another instrument.

Ultimately, a small amount of relays or even solid-state switching, plus some standard switches, would have saved this instrument from such an early demise. Don't believe me? Instruments made before and after it used other not-completely-fantastic-plastic methods to control the circuits.

After many hours of gluing, grinding, probing, replacing, and swearing, you end up with a signal generator with low frequency resolution and phase noise specifications that it will never meet unless you have a cesium clock at 5 MHz to feed it with. To be fair I considered such (just for fun).
 
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Offline porter

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2023, 08:54:41 pm »
Quote
HP 8640B

The controls are a interesting variety of technologies (analog meter, push button switches, crank, leds, sliders). It looks cool anyway.
 

Offline tryode

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #40 on: May 27, 2023, 10:05:13 pm »
If we talk about scopes... I would add here HP54601A, it is claimed to be a 4 x 100MHz scope but it's sampling rate is only 20MS/s :palm: and it has about 4k of memory.
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #41 on: May 27, 2023, 11:22:21 pm »
service a miller 200 and then you will beg for the HP to come back when you have that stupid I beam design resting on fire bricks while you try to wash a heat sink

i got to the inner transformer and I think the hp power supply was still pleasant in comparison

it goes from surgeon to confined space zero gravity surgeon

thats a solid chassis design, part of the requirement for maintenance cleaning is machinists jacks or stacks of wood  :-+
« Last Edit: May 27, 2023, 11:24:24 pm by coppercone2 »
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #42 on: May 28, 2023, 09:03:20 am »
I would also nominate the TDS3xx/4xx series. They were obviously a sort of learning phase in regard to user interfaces for Tek which was nevertheless foisted on the customers.

I rather like my TDS420A   :-//
nuqDaq yuch Dapol?
Addiction count: Agilent-AVO-BlackStar-Brymen-Chauvin Arnoux-Fluke-GenRad-Hameg-HP-Keithley-IsoTech-Mastech-Megger-Metrix-Micronta-Racal-RFL-Siglent-Solartron-Tektronix-Thurlby-Time Electronics-TTi-UniT
 

Offline Chris56000

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #43 on: May 28, 2023, 04:50:59 pm »
Tek 465/465B/468

Absolutely horrible to dismantle if the H.T. and L.T. can smoothers on the main interface PCB dry out, (Even Tek themselves instruct you not to bother removing the main board and trying to repair the thing!) Sprague electrolytic capacitors either cost an arm, leg and a kidney, or they're pure unobtainium, altho' there are PCB adapters made to enable standard 10 mm pitch two–pin capacitors to go in the PCB, the supply of them is hit–and–miss, I guarantee every eBay seller won't have any when you get another one of these to do!

Tripler modules for the p.d.a. supply go s/c with monotonous regularity, involving much creativity in Araldite to repair and fill it afterwards, and everything, CRT included, has to come out to get at it!

'468 uses a gruesome ADC made by TRW Automotive that gets extremely hot and smelly in operation and failures aren't exactly unknown either!

Cam switches and attenuator modules notorious on these unless you're prepared to dismantle ALL the boards and cam–leaf operating assemblies and clean them METICULOUSLY as per the instructions in the manuals!

Fans are daft brushless d.c. things in the 465/465B that jam or get very badly worn bearings and if you skip repairing them, all the transistors in the front–end'll start showing their displeasure by popping off one after the other!

Innumerable tantalum failures as well!

Oh yes, the early series 465B manual from Artek I got didn't meet their advertised quality standards, it was full of engineers scribbles and blotches all over the circuit diagrams – get one from QService instead!

Chris Williams

PS!

(2024 Addendum !)

. . .Trigger slope switch knob/Trigger Slope Level Knob and Controls :–

. . .These are suddenly starting to get broken more often on sale units – both the knobs and the concentric control potentiometer/switch are EXTREMELY fragile!
« Last Edit: February 01, 2024, 04:05:18 am by Chris56000 »
It's an enigma that's what it is!! This thing's not fixed because it doesn't want to be fixed!!
 

Offline coppercone2

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #44 on: May 28, 2023, 04:53:10 pm »
just a reminder if you are thinking about posting in this thread about a recent issue take a 2 week break  :-DD
 
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Offline AMR Labs

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2023, 02:06:41 pm »
I’ll second the Tek 2245/6/7 series. While they are decent scopes when functional, service is an absolute bitch, especially the main board on the bottom. Good luck extracting it to do any required work.

I would offer a counterpoint on this - the Tek 2245/6/7 are far easier to live with than the venerable 2465/7 due to not using the real PITA in Tek scopes - the infamous Dallas chip and leaking tantalum caps. My 2247A's are a joy to use They are keepers for general AF work and especially for monitoring RF modulation. That well-honed, excellent UI - including the adjustable orange graticule - is very tough to beat. Mine have been working for years without complaint.

Second that. The 2247A is to me the absolute best GP Tek scope out there for the money, and yes its an absolute pleasure to operate. Very intuitive and ergonomically friendly interface. Just change the internal Lithium battery once it starts complaining about every 8-10 years or so (simple procedure and done it already twice - and no danger of loosing any cal constants as they don't depend on the battery). And yes the PS can be at times a bitch but when mine quit I just replaced the whole board for a quick fix and back in business in less than 30 minutes. The 2247A is my go to scope 99% of the time (2465B on stby for that other 1%). Wish the 2465B would be as versatile as the 2247A with the higher bandwidth, but even with the CTT option installed recently it does not come close.
 

Offline luis garcia

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2023, 10:39:47 pm »
IMHO, the worst tool from HP, by far, was the Logic Dart. Actually it was used as an example of how not to design a tool in some industrial design magazine i cant remember. I own one of these and can certify it is almost useless. It is appreciated as vintage collectable though.
 

Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #47 on: May 30, 2023, 02:23:52 am »
Looks like a glorified logic probe with some DMM and basic logic analyzer functions?

What makes it so bad?
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #48 on: May 30, 2023, 07:07:00 pm »
Looks like a glorified logic probe with some DMM and basic logic analyzer functions?

What makes it so bad?
I have one too and still consider it useful when no LA or MSO is available. Of course, with the demise of classical digital circuitry, those situations became rarer.
 

Offline gslick

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Re: The worst products from HP and Tektronix.
« Reply #49 on: May 30, 2023, 11:01:55 pm »
Looks like a glorified logic probe with some DMM and basic logic analyzer functions?

What makes it so bad?

Holden : Describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about... your LogicDart.

Leon : My LogicDart?

Holden : Yeah.

Leon : Let me tell you about my LogicDart.

[Leon shoots Holden with a gun he had pulled out under the table]
 


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