TinySA Ultra launched

[nctnico]

My HP 8560A & 8593E SAs both have  warning labels to not apply *any* DC and the input damage level.  I am not aware of any professional piece of RF T&M kit that lacks such warnings.

Indeed. Typically I put a 50 Ohm terminator on the inputs of my spectrum / network analysers when they are not in use as they don't like static discharge either.

[Bicurico]

My HP 8560A & 8593E SAs both have  warning labels to not apply *any* DC and the input damage level.  I am not aware of any professional piece of RF T&M kit that lacks such warnings.

Indeed. Typically I put a 50 Ohm terminator on the inputs of my spectrum / network analysers when they are not in use as they don't like static discharge either.

Good to know that I am not the only one doing that!

Also, I have DC Blockers connected permanently, because I tend to analyse CATV and SAT signals and DC is often present. By having the DC Blocker attached always, there is less risk of forgetting something in the heat of the moment.

Other than that, I suspect that this thread has been trolled.

[pdenisowski]

My HP 8560A & 8593E SAs both have warning labels to not apply *any* DC and the input damage level.  I am not aware of any professional piece of RF T&M kit that lacks such warnings.

Input connector on the Rohde & Schwarz flagship FSW spectrum analyzer    Coupling can be toggled between AC (default) and DC.

Even our entry-level spec an, the FPC, can take up to 50V DC.

[pdenisowski]

Serious RF designers will use serious, $$ devices by Tektronix or R&S or Agilent.
That leaves budget hobbyists ... but who? HAM radio enthusiasts? Is that the "intended audience" for products like Tiny?
Or is the "intended audience" just another shopping cart addict wanting another cheap toy to play with?

I work for Rohde & Schwarz and one of my specialties was handheld instruments, including our portable spec ans (FSH, FPH) and VNAs (ZVH, ZPH, ZNH).  I'm also a hobbyist and ham radio operator (KO4LZ).  I can't speak for others, but there are plenty of times a NanoVNA (which I own) or a TinySA (which I will probably buy soon ) are handy devices to have around. 

Example:  Just the other day I had an issue using my keyless remote in a parking lot and I suspected RF interference.  If I didn't have access to our "professional" portable spectrum analyzers, a TinySA would have been really useful as a quick check for determining if the noise floor was high or if there were any co-channel interference. 

(I did actually use one of our portable spec ans in the end, but most people probably don't have those sitting around )

[Mechatrommer]

The high-school student is way ahead of the pack in what he noted. Go back to the internals of a CD player.
And you can even use a NanoVNA for this application.

a serious audio equipment designer will not use NanoVNA, they use Keysight/HP Audio Analyzer or the same caliber. as you simply concluded...

Serious RF designers will use serious, $$ devices by Tektronix or R&S or Agilent.
That leaves budget hobbyists ... but who? HAM radio enthusiasts? Is that the "intended audience" for products like Tiny?
Or is the "intended audience" just another shopping cart addict wanting another cheap toy to play with?

are you and/or your students using NanoVNA just a bunch of enthusiasts? or just another shopping cart addict? 

i can brag about my pro/semi-pro equipments here (not ee) but i think i dont like to. simply put, being serious alone is not enough for you to afford $$ tools, it needs some guarantee in the workflow (clients and customers) that you can get your investment back. otherwise you are just a luxurious well loaded enthusiast. professional comes from root word profession, i think i dont have to elaborate more for you to get a picture about what it is when you see the word "profession" instead of "professional ".. profession is actually a burden and high pressure you know? if its up to me, i would like just to stay at home playing hobby with cheap smartphone camera and nano/tiny vna/sa, but who's going to feed me and family then? or pay for my little cheap, let alone expensive toys? cheers.

[rteodor]

What TG+tinySA use case do you have in mind that cannot be covered by NanoVNA/LiveVNA/etc. alone?

Some amplifiers might not like the NanoVNA square wave. The TG signal would be easier to control than just swapping attenuators to NanoVNA.
SA with TG can be more convenient because of VNA calibration.

[baldurn]

What TG+tinySA use case do you have in mind that cannot be covered by NanoVNA/LiveVNA/etc. alone?

Some amplifiers might not like the NanoVNA square wave. The TG signal would be easier to control than just swapping attenuators to NanoVNA.
SA with TG can be more convenient because of VNA calibration.

We are waiting for someone to combine NanoVNA and TinySA in the same box :-) My Siglent does both...

[Mechatrommer]

What TG+tinySA use case do you have in mind that cannot be covered by NanoVNA/LiveVNA/etc. alone?

Some amplifiers might not like the NanoVNA square wave. The TG signal would be easier to control than just swapping attenuators to NanoVNA.
SA with TG can be more convenient because of VNA calibration.

tell me any SG/FG that produces clean sine up to 3-6GHz range at around $100 cost, if you can name, i'll get it today... even better if you can name VNA/SA with TG that can produce that clean sine. i'll throw my Nano/LiteVNA/Deepace KC901V into dustbin... i have EraSynth Micro SG that claim clean harmonics or whatever at ~$250, one step ahead from the other hunglow SG, but it still produces square wave that can screw some amplifiers up.

[regenfreak]

I am a big fan of the old TinySA which i own two units. I use it as sig gen and rf sniffer for VHF receiver alignment. I am very tempted by the TinySA Ultra and i can see it selling like hot cakes in Zeenko store. However, i have a Siglent SSA3021X Plus and i cannot justify to spend more money given the fact that I also have four NanoVNAs:
NanoVNA V2 Plus 4, NanoVNA V2, NanoVNA H4 and NanoVNA F V2.

[hugen]

In the beginning, we put the LNA behind the attenuator so that the attenuator could protect the LNA. Unfortunately we had to change the design due to the large amount of spurious we found during testing. The new design eliminated the spurious, but since the RF switch and LNA were connected directly to the SMA port, it was very susceptible to damage from excessive output signals. Erik has done a lot of design and experimentation, and the current version is the final choice in a trade-off between performance, reliability and cost, and as a test instrument, we prioritized performance. This is why the final version sold has a lower maximum input power than the previous test version.

Well, this has taken a weird turn...

In any case, I noticed that 13hm13's TinySA seems to be labelled "+6 dBm MAX" and not +10 dBm. I wonder what the story behind that is. It certainly has the potential to add to the apparent confusion.

[rteodor]

tell me any SG/FG that produces clean sine up to 3-6GHz range at around $100 cost, if you can name, i'll get it today... even better if you can name VNA/SA with TG that can produce that clean sine. i'll throw my Nano/LiteVNA/Deepace KC901V into dustbin... i have EraSynth Micro SG that claim clean harmonics or whatever at ~$250, one step ahead from the other hunglow SG, but it still produces square wave that can screw some amplifiers up.

Simulating a TG with a second TinySA is just an idea. I'm not holding to it if people around don't find it usefull.

But the spectrum of NanoVNA signal and of TinySA LOW output is quite different. Some TinySa Ultra screenshots bellow (sorry, I do not know how to write this BBCode to inline the images):
1. 10MHz generated from another TinySA LOW output (sinusoidal)
2. 240MHz generated from another TinySA HIGH output (square - I just added this as nice to mention)
3. 10MHz with 20dB attenuation from NanoVNA F V2 (no comment)

Offtopic: I have also ordered an EraSynth Micro in october but never heard of it from Mouser since then.
Era crowdsupply page has all 3 variants as unavailable and last time I checked Mouser has Micro for orders > 100 pcs.
Anybody knows what happened with EraInstruments products ? (maybe start another topic if you know details).

[Bicurico]

A Tracking Generator uses the same swept frequency range as the Spectrum Analyser. By combining both mixers with the syntesized frequency, you make sure that you output at the same frequency you are analysing.

Any solution to use two TinySA, one to generate the signal, the other to do the spectrum analysis, will fail, because both will not be syncronized during the sweep. Imagine that one TinySA is still generating a signal at 100MHz, while the other is reading in the signal at 101MHz.

The only alternative is to use a noise generator. This will basically produce a random signal, hopefully at a constant signal level, over the required frequency range.

This is almost as useful as a tracking generator, as it will allow measuring DUT's like filters.

A "poor-man's" alternative is to use one TinySA to sweep the generated signal and keep the other TinySA to show the MAX TRACE. Over a period of time (minutes), you end up to hopefully match a signal and its registration over all frequencies.

What an SA+TG does not do, is measuring how the emitted signal is delayed or transformed by the DUT. This requires measurement of the phase of the signal. This is when you use a VNA.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Vitor

[gf]

The only alternative is to use a noise generator. This will basically produce a random signal, hopefully at a constant signal level, over the required frequency range.

This is almost as useful as a tracking generator, as it will allow measuring DUT's like filters.

If a DUT has a problem with the harmonics of NanoVNA's square wave stimulus, then I guess it may also have a problem with the out-of-span frequency components of a noise source?

[Bicurico]

I would imagine so, yes.

A TG produces harmonics, as well, by the way.

Again, a typical application for using a noise source a the TinySA would be to measure the behaviour of a filter. It would allow you to determine the frequencies at which the attenuation happens and by how many dB the signal is attenuated.

Another application is for example to determine the distance to a fault in a cable - using the noise source and the spectrum analysator basically as a reflectometer --> https://vma-satellite.blogspot.com/search?q=reflectometer

[rteodor]

Any solution to use two TinySA, one to generate the signal, the other to do the spectrum analysis, will fail, because both will not be syncronized during the sweep. Imagine that one TinySA is still generating a signal at 100MHz, while the other is reading in the signal at 101MHz.

Syncing the two Tiny's over USB can be done for sure. It is just a question if it can be done with the current command set or if a new command is needed in firmware.
A command or command sequence like a "set_point_measure_and_wait" that would set the SA on an input frequency, measure (and update display), then wait for another command, is all that would be needed from the firmware.

A TG produces harmonics, as well, by the way.

Proper timing of the commands would reduce that to a low enough level but it would increase the measurement duration.

[hwalker]

The command set for programming a stepped sweep using two tinySA's is definitely available. The PC control program would have to take care of synchronizing the stepped sweep and graphing the saved frequency/level pair, or export CSV values to a spreadsheet program.  A NanoVNA, or similar VNA, is a much better alternative to a stepped sweep. 

Two stepped sweeps are required, one to establish a reference level and the other with the device under test inserted.

The programming exercise is a good way for students to become familiar with test automation.

Herb

[wasedadoc]

http://kv4qb.blogspot.com/2020/12/easy-tracking-generator-for-tinysa.html

Tracking generator tor TinySA. Uses a fixed frequency oscillator (433 MHz) mixed with TinySA's local oscillator output.

I have not tried it so no opinion on how well it works.

[hwalker]

The reason the designer did not implement a tracking generator on the tinySA Ultra was because:

"Unfortunately, leakage is the main problem with incorporating a tracking generator, otherwise adding an LO at IF frequency and one mixer would be enough to create a tracking generator.

The LO running at the IF frequency (at least +7dBm) will leak through the shielding and through the two mixers and destroy the dynamic range.

Only heavy shielding and added isolation amplifiers would solve this problem. But this does not fit in the form factor or the intended price-point."

The quoted passage is from the designer.

Herb

[wasedadoc]

The reason the designer did not implement a tracking generator on the tinySA Ultra was because:

"Unfortunately, leakage is the main problem with incorporating a tracking generator, otherwise adding an LO at IF frequency and one mixer would be enough to create a tracking generator.

The LO running at the IF frequency (at least +7dBm) will leak through the shielding and through the two mixers and destroy the dynamic range.

Only heavy shielding and added isolation amplifiers would solve this problem. But this does not fit in the form factor or the intended price-point."

The quoted passage is from the designer.

Herb

No argument with those reasons for not including a tracking generator within the TinySA itself. But a separate  unit eases the problems.

[hwalker]

No argument with those reasons for not including a tracking generator within the TinySA itself. But a separate  unit eases the problems.

My only argument about purchasing a second tinySA Ultra for the purpose of implementing a stepped sweep is that the liteVNA64 covers the same frequency range for about the same cost and the two instruments together give you much more measurement capability.

Herb

[Bicurico]

I have tried to achieve that with a different type of device, the "138M-4.4G USB SMA signal source/signal generator/simple spectrum analyzer" (https://www.ebay.de/itm/165015769420). This device only features one ADF4350 instead of two ADF4350/ADF4351 in the NWT4400.

As such you can either use it as a signal generator or a spectrum analyzer, but not both simultaneously as a tracking generator.

I tried to implement aTG by synchronizing both devices. The result, while functional, is useless due to the much increased sweep time required.

Imagine you want to sweep over 500 samples. Instead of launching one command and getting 500 samples, you need to launch 500 individual (!) commands, receive 500 times the single sample, obtained while first setting the signal generator to each of the 500 frequencies. Add a short waiting period for the generated signal to settle.

It is just useless.

The alternative is, as already mentioned, using a noise source like this: https://www.ebay.de/itm/285099911097

Instead of sweeping the signal generator through the selected frequency range, you just generate a noise signal over the whole bandwidth.

The possible measurements are in theory the same, you won't be doing phase measurements anyway with a TinySA.

The reality is not as bright, though, as the noise source is not so stable, the amplitude varies considerably over the whole specified frequency range, but it is the cheapest and most viable option.

Of course, there are better noise generators, but prices increase exponentially with higher specs.

Regarding TG, you can only use an external device, if it can be hooked up to the swept frequency signal - some spectrum analysers offer this signal. Doing so by cheating the FW into using individual measurements is, IMHO, not a viable solution.

I leave this link for further reading: https://www.ednasia.com/use-a-low-cost-noise-source-as-a-replacement-for-a-tracking-generator/

Kind regards,
Vitor

[gf]

Another point is that frequency must match very well between TX and RX, particularly if a narrow RBW ist used in order to achieve a high dynamic range. At 100MHz signal frequency, 200Hz RBW is only 2ppm! If we have two Tinys, then the TX and RX frequency synthesizers are not fed from a common XTAL oscillator, but each Tiny has its own clock source, and then their clock frequency agreement matters.

[DaneLaw]

Curious about these TinySA
The older model 2.8", seems to have been cloned.? both in a sandwich-style casing?, and one with a casing that resamples the org. but as far as I can tell, the TinySA Ultra there still aint any signs of clones on the market on that unit?
Im asking as I can see Erik refers to a single store on Aliexpress, while there are like 30 to 40 Aliexpres stores that are selling the TinySA Ultra , so for that Ultra model you can just pick and choose.? 
 

[Bicurico]

I would only buy from one of the officially appointed stores. See the Wiki.
If you buy from a random AliExpress store, you will most probably get a clone.
The smaller model has been cloned to almost perfection, including a modified firmware that passes all self-tests. Install an official firmware and it will fail. The clones are not perfect, the filters are wrong.

[BillyO]

Curious about these TinySA
The older model 2.8", seems to have been cloned.? both in a sandwich-style casing?, and one with a casing that resamples the org. but as far as I can tell, the TinySA Ultra there still aint any signs of clones on the market on that unit?
Im asking as I can see Erik refers to a single store on Aliexpress, while there are like 30 to 40 Aliexpres stores that are selling the TinySA Ultra , so for that Ultra model you can just pick and choose.?

I picked up one recently from a eBayer I trust.  I got the real thing but it did end up costing me $2.30  more than if I had bought it off the official AliExpress store.  I'm still at the sub $20 trust factor with AliExpress, so I don't see that $2.30 as a bad spend to get it from a trusted supplier.  However, to answer you question .. I feel the Ultra is far more difficult for the scammers to clone.  It may be a while before they do.  Just be wary of oddly low prices, or, if you don't have an option like mine, just bite the bullet and buy from the manufacturers AliExpress store.