TinySA Ultra launched

[baldurn]

3.3v - 5v is std TTL logic voltage on my devices.
Maybe input current is the more worrisome factor?

It's a bit strange that a mass-market device like NanoSA would not allow 5v input. Or have built-in protection (or warning messages) if ran into such limits. Yes?

If not, how does one "safely" probe IC pins that are at 5v TTL? Use a probe with resistor?

BTW: The 5v amplitude is default on many Signal Gens like the budget Kollertron in my photo.

Usually a SA is not used to sample digital IC pins like that and the analog RF circuit would include methods to tap the signal if relevant.

However if you wanted to, you could use a 5k resistor. This would then form a voltage divider with the 50 ohm in the instrument. You would get 1% of the signal. Beware however the 5V DC limit because you could easily exceed that even with the resistor.

[erikka]

The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.
Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.
A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.
5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

For pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.
There is no solution for this problem.
Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.
For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

[baldurn]

5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

Two issues. First his multimeter probably can not measure current at the frequency, so the measurement is likely invalid. Second the impedance of TinySA at 1 kHz is likely not 50 ohm with this frequency being way outside the range of the instrument.

[Solder_Junkie]

There is a serious lack of understanding from some on this thread. The TinySA is a radio frequency test instrument, not an audio frequency one, nor is it something to look at TTL (or CMOS) levels on a board.

You normally use a spectrum analyser with a power attenuator to examine the harmonic and other spurious signals from a transmitter. Equally you can measure the oscillator level in a receiver to ensure it is the correct level to feed a mixer, for example +7dBm to feed a diode ring mixer.

Used with care, the TinySA Ultra is a very good piece of test equipment for hobby use. It is around 1/10th the cost of the nearest budget professional hand held SA, one example being a Thurlby Thandar series 3 or 5. https://www.aimtti.com/

Regards Dave

[nctnico]

There is a serious lack of understanding from some on this thread. The TinySA is a radio frequency test instrument, not an audio frequency one, nor is it something to look at TTL (or CMOS) levels on a board.

You normally use a spectrum analyser with a power attenuator to examine the harmonic and other spurious signals from a transmitter.

That depends on what the transmitter is... it can be a clock line on a board that causes too much emissions. Or a switching power supply. I do use a spectrum analyser with a probe (using a low-Z HF probe with internal attenuation) to measure all kinds of signals on a board in order to see what their high frequency content is. This requires to take signal level and DC level limits into account.

The real problem is lack of understanding understanding how a spectrum analyser works and what to expect from it.

[13hm13]

The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.
Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.
A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.
5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

For pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.
There is no solution for this problem.
Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.
For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

Not only is your reply significantly confusing, you are significantly confused by my use and my signal gen.
This is my sig gen:
https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.html

I used a Fluke 87 DMM to measure the voltage of Koolertron generating 1khz at 5 v_p-p . The Fluke 87 DMM  reads about 1.3 V_ac.

You , Erik Kaashoek:, note: "The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver."
This is new to me!
The video here notes:" A short video introducing the tinySA, a small 0.1MHz to 350MHz handheld spectrum analyzer that also can be used as a signal."
generator"

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

[13hm13]

There is a serious lack of understanding from some on this thread. The TinySA is a radio frequency test instrument, not an audio frequency one, nor is it something to look at TTL (or CMOS) levels on a board.

You normally use a spectrum analyser with a power attenuator to examine the harmonic and other spurious signals from a transmitter. Equally you can measure the oscillator level in a receiver to ensure it is the correct level to feed a mixer, for example +7dBm to feed a diode ring mixer.

Used with care, the TinySA Ultra is a very good piece of test equipment for hobby use. It is around 1/10th the cost of the nearest budget professional hand held SA, ...[/url]

Whatever the case, a device intended for the budget hobbyist should be robust enough for, say, high-school labs. So the Tiny SA, out of the box (the default supplied kit), should be able handle a device like my very common Koolertron sign gen.
https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.html

If not, then the Tiny SA should not be marketed as hobbyist device. Or that it should come with plenty of PRINTED notices -- in the box --  about possibility of damage from devices like a simple sig. gen. And/or come with, say, an attenuator ... like:
20 dB - Fixed Attenuator SMA Male To SMA Female Up To 3 GHz Rated To 2 Watts With Gold Plated Brass Body

[0culus]

The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.
Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.
A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.
5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

For pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.
There is no solution for this problem.
Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.
For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

Not only is your reply significantly confusing, you are significantly confused by my use and my signal gen.
This is my sig gen:
https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.html

I used a Fluke 87 DMM to measure the voltage of Koolertron generating 1khz at 5 v_p-p . The Fluke 87 DMM  reads about 1.3 V_ac.

You , Erik Kaashoek:, note: "The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver."
This is new to me!
The video here notes:" A short video introducing the tinySA, a small 0.1MHz to 350MHz handheld spectrum analyzer that also can be used as a signal."
generator"

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

Because it doesn't. Read the fine manual: https://www.tinysa.org/wiki

0.1 MHz == 100 kHz


Also, shouting in gigantic font is unbecoming.

[13hm13]

The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.
Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.
A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.
5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

For pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.
There is no solution for this problem.
Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.
For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

Not only is your reply significantly confusing, you are significantly confused by my use and my signal gen.
This is my sig gen:
https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.html

I used a Fluke 87 DMM to measure the voltage of Koolertron generating 1khz at 5 v_p-p . The Fluke 87 DMM  reads about 1.3 V_ac.

You , Erik Kaashoek:, note: "The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver."
This is new to me!
The video here notes:" A short video introducing the tinySA, a small 0.1MHz to 350MHz handheld spectrum analyzer that also can be used as a signal."
generator"

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

Because it doesn't. Read the fine manual: https://www.tinysa.org/wiki

0.1 MHz == 100 kHz


Also, shouting in gigantic font is unbecoming.

Actually, that link notes:

Switchable resolution bandpass filters from 200Hz to 850kHz

[erikka]

Thanks for spotting this opportunity for improving the wiki.
This is about the width of the resolution filters. Not the center frequency.
I will mprove the text to reduce possible confusion by novice users

[0culus]

The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.
Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.
A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.
5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

For pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.
There is no solution for this problem.
Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.
For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

Not only is your reply significantly confusing, you are significantly confused by my use and my signal gen.
This is my sig gen:
https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.html

I used a Fluke 87 DMM to measure the voltage of Koolertron generating 1khz at 5 v_p-p . The Fluke 87 DMM  reads about 1.3 V_ac.

You , Erik Kaashoek:, note: "The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver."
This is new to me!
The video here notes:" A short video introducing the tinySA, a small 0.1MHz to 350MHz handheld spectrum analyzer that also can be used as a signal."
generator"

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

Because it doesn't. Read the fine manual: https://www.tinysa.org/wiki

0.1 MHz == 100 kHz


Also, shouting in gigantic font is unbecoming.

Actually, that link notes:

Switchable resolution bandpass filters from 200Hz to 850kHz

How about working on understanding how a spectrum analyzer works instead of arguing with people who do, from a position of ignorance?

If you can't beat em, join em 

The RBW filter has nothing to do with the frequency range of a SA. See: https://www.everythingrf.com/community/what-is-resolution-bandwidth

[JeremyC]

Whatever the case, a device intended for the budget hobbyist should be robust enough for, say, high-school labs. So the Tiny SA, out of the box (the default supplied kit), should be able handle a device like my very common Koolertron sign gen.

I’m guessing that you misunderstood purpose of RF spectrum analyzers and RF generators.
You should watch these videos:

[nctnico]

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

That is typical for about every spectrum analyser. Heck, you can even configure some for a span of 100MHz using a 20MHz center frequency so the frequency range goes from -30MHz to 70Mhz. It doesn't mean the spectrum analyser can deliver guaranteed results below the specified minimum frequency. May I strongly suggest to learn more about spectrum analysers? Then you will be able to understand how certain settings work. And for sure there is also a bunch of legacy stemming from the old analog age where hard boundaries where a lot harder to set so these where just left as-is expecting the operator to know how to do her/his job.

[baldurn]

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

That is typical for about every spectrum analyser. Heck, you can even configure some for a span of 100MHz using a 20MHz center frequency so the frequency range goes from -30MHz to 70Mhz. It doesn't mean the spectrum analyser can deliver guaranteed results below the specified minimum frequency. May I strongly suggest to learn more about spectrum analysers? Then you will be able to understand how certain settings work. And for sure there is also a bunch of legacy stemming from the old analog age where hard boundaries where a lot harder to set so these where just left as-is expecting the operator to know how to do her/his job.

The Tiny SA clearly makes some measurement below 100 kHz and maybe that can be useful for some. You just need to understand that it is outside the range of the instrument and so any absolute readings are not going to be valid.

13hm13 appears to be angry that the instruments are not "safe" but really, just because something is marketed to us mortal hobby people does not mean it is a toy. The Tiny SA is not behaving any different in this regard than much more expensive professional instruments. To use it you need to learn and know enough electronics and that includes knowledge about the RF domain. To mr. 13hm13 you said you do not want to do RF so why are you playing with an instrument that only does RF? If you only want to inspect audio level frequencies, the cheap hobby option is to use a sound card with a program on your PC.

[TimFox]

With lab-grade spectrum analyzers, working up to > 1 GHz, many of them work down to 9 kHz (I don't know where that exact frequency comes from).
For example, Siglent SSA3000X Spectrum Analyzers offer a frequency range of 9 KHz to 2.1 or 3.2 GHz.
My ancient Marconi 2380/2382 RF spectrum analyzer goes from 100 Hz to 400 MHz.
A very useful thing lacking from the Tiny SA series, at their extremely low price, is a tracking generator, since the generator function cannot be used at the same time as the SA function.

[mzzj]

Whatever the case, a device intended for the budget hobbyist should be robust enough for, say, high-school labs. So the Tiny SA, out of the box (the default supplied kit), should be able handle a device like my very common Koolertron sign gen.

If not, then the Tiny SA should not be marketed as hobbyist device. Or that it should come with plenty of PRINTED notices -- in the box --  about possibility of damage from devices like a simple sig. gen. And/or come with, say, an attenuator ... like:

Only difference is that hobbyist blows up 50 euro Tiny SA and professionals blow up 40 000 euro R&S spectrum analyzer.

Anyone interested in 7Ghz Rohde& Schwarz? 40k usd some years ago, now you can have this cheaply!
Only couple of small components broken on input stage. Diode or two in best case. 

[Mechatrommer]

Anyone interested in 7Ghz Rohde& Schwarz? 40k usd some years ago, now you can have this cheaply!
Only couple of small components broken on input stage. Diode or two in best case. 

i got a Anritsu 9kHz-13GHz MS8609A last time for $1K, fully working no need to repair a single diode. you can still have many "was for professional" options in ebay for 500-2K, ANritsu, HP, R&S etc... i think now i can design and verify up to 10GHz of digital mobile communication device since i think thats what MS8609A was designed for, it has some constellation plot feature that i'm not yet know how to appreciate or use, the only problem now is time, just to learn the stuffs, let alone of actually doing all that.

[13hm13]

You're a confused group!

What is the ultimate utility of a product like Tiny SA?
 It's worse than USELESS because it does not have the robustness of a child's toy. Yes, folks ... it does come across that way, even tho'  the toyness may not have been the intention of the orig designer(s) .... but many of the YouTube influencers that have featured the Tiny products gloss over safety and protection and fragility issues.
Reminiscent of a typical Kickstater-like project that gets the filter bubbles  and echo chambers all worked up .... over a product that will ultimately be shoved into a drawer until the same folks afflicted with perpetual boredom go for the next Kickstater.

BTW ... my Koolertron ... and my Fluke 87. Yes, the Koolertron out impedance is 50 ohms. And the raw measured AC voltage of the sig gen outputting 2k at 5 v_p-p is 1.73 Vac.

[erikka]

Can you run the selftest on the tinySA to confirm no harm was done?
Or to know if something did go wrong?

[aristarchus]

... And the raw measured AC voltage of the sig gen outputting 2k at 5 v_p-p is 1.73 Vac.

That means you need to understand what is measured with the instruments you got there. Of course 5Vpp is 1.768V RMS, your Fluke is a True RMS multimeter.

[baldurn]

You're a confused group!

What is the ultimate utility of a product like Tiny SA?

It is for HAM or radio/wireless applications.

I am not planning on using TinySA Ultra for anything other than a sig gen or ttl voltage (IC pins).
I'm not into HAM or radio/wireless applications.

Seems that you bought the wrong toy then.

It's worse than USELESS because it does not have the robustness of a child's toy.

No it is actually quite useful for the people that need it. That is not you.

One simple example of the use of a spectrum analyzer is to connect a radio transmitter, through a suitable attenuator, to check that harmonics are below the legal limit. Before Tiny SA this was not available for cheap to the common HAM operator. We had to do with used equipment if we could do the measurement at all.

And so you buy an instrument that is made exclusively for RF but you do not want to use it for RF. Instead you try using it wrong and get angry that it might get damaged and not work correctly? You never told us why exactly you got an SA - what exactly are you trying to measure? You should probably sell the SA and instead ask for advice on how to measure whatever it is you have that needs measuring.

[BillyO]

You're a confused group!

You didn't read the specifications of the product you bought before you bought it now you are mad at the world because it doesn't meet the specifications you imagined?   

Sounds like you got yourself into a real ID-10-T situation.

[Mechatrommer]

You're a confused group!

can you go away out of this thread? you are the confused one, and annoying too... first you are confusing BW and RBW, and then you use annoyingly large font, do you have eye sight problem? if you had a bad day with chinese product, we are sorry for that, obviously it is not for you, but not necessarily for others, we bought few chinese toys and we like it, now please go away especially if you want to keep using large fonts. its a sign of problem or rudeness on your side.

[JeremyC]

What is the ultimate utility of a product like Tiny SA?
 It's worse than USELESS because it does not have the robustness of a child's toy. Yes, folks ... it does come across that way, even tho'  the toyness may not have been the intention of the orig designer(s) .... but many of the YouTube influencers that have featured the Tiny products gloss over safety and protection and fragility issues.
Reminiscent of a typical Kickstater-like project that gets the filter bubbles  and echo chambers all worked up .... over a product that will ultimately be shoved into a drawer until the same folks afflicted with perpetual boredom go for the next Kickstater.

BTW ... my Koolertron ... and my Fluke 87. Yes, the Koolertron out impedance is 50 ohms. And the raw measured AC voltage of the sig gen outputting 2k at 5 v_p-p is 1.73 Vac.

Why are you trying to insult members of this board? Do you realize how much would cost device like the TinySA back in 1990's? BTW, did you understand what is purpose of network analyzers ?

[13hm13]

Can you run the selftest on the tinySA to confirm no harm was done?
Or to know if something did go wrong?

A good question -- you are rare in this group.
Yes, all okay with self-test. No other misbehavior either. BTW: I have taken the V_pp to into Tiny SA Ultra as high as 8v. I was curious But no issues -- the traces remained smooth and not even a glitch.

BTW: Why does the Tiny SA Ultra specs state:
Spectrum Analyzer spec:
[...]
Maximum +/-5V DC input
[...]

https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.Specification