TinySA Ultra launched

[13hm13]

You're a confused group!

can you go away out of this thread? you are the confused one, and annoying too... first you are confusing BW and RBW, and then you use annoyingly large font, do you have eye sight problem? if you had a bad day with chinese product, we are sorry for that, obviously it is not for you, but not necessarily for others, we bought few chinese toys and we like it, now please go away especially if you want to keep using large fonts. its a sign of problem or rudeness on your side.

Actually, many of "my" queries are posed on behalf of several high-school students in an extra-curricular electronics program I'm involved with. Their teenage budgets have made them curious about Tiny projects like the Tiny SA. If they can plug their phone's earphone out into the SA and look at spectral waveforms ... that's cool.
The "Tiny" phone-like form factor of the Tiny SA and NanoVNA is attractive for teenage minds. But if the these devices are not robust out of the box -- say via a built-in 20 db  atten., engaged by default, but that is menu-defeatable for more experienced users  -- then their packaging notes should include  CAUTION and WARNING tags LARGE BOLD SCRIPT. Or they should include -- in  the box of default accessories the Tiny comes with -- a 20 - 30 db sma in-line atten.

About the "Chinese" comment ... I thought that the Tiny SA project was created in Europe (Netherlands??), and maybe manuf in China?  Or are both the Tiny SA and NanoVNA pure Chinese products -- inspiration, design, topology, project management, production/distribution (of course) ?

[BillyO]

then their packaging notes should include  CAUTION and WARNING tags LARGE BOLD SCRIPT. Or they should include -- in  the box of default accessories the Tiny comes with -- a 20 - 30 db sma in-line atten.

No.  They should not.  You should read the specifications before you buy.

[13hm13]

Sounds like you got yourself into a real ID-10-T situation.

So we are living in a dream simul (situ) ation ;-) You bet!

[BillyO]

So we are living in a dream simul (situ) ation ;-) You bet!

Well, they say that for the average human perception is more important than reality.  The thing is, people in the sciences and technology strive to get closer to reality.  For them, what it should be, or what it looks like, are irrelevant.  They want to know what it really is.  That's why the entire T & M industry exists.  And they all (every firckin' one of them) expect you to read an understand the specifications of the equipment they sell.  I warrant that in most cases equipment like this is not marketed to laypersons.  These are not coffee makers.  You are expected to have a modicum of understanding before you engage.

BTW, did you read anyting at all on the tinysa.org site?

If you have students, I pity them.

[13hm13]

BTW: If, as many of you are now claiming, that the Tiny SA is intended for RF, then:

It is not really a "SPECTRUM ANALYZER" and should not be marketed as one. Maybe shout at all the vloggers and influencers about this.

It should not work for audio frequencies (which it does quite well) and it should not contain menu options and selections for below-RF freqs (which it does indeed).

But many of y'all are completely ignorant of these facts.

Because you are not really familiar with the actual internal design.

Who designed the Tiny and WHY?

Maybe stuff like this is a typical pet project or proof-of-concept project  -- the mentality behind it being: "yeah, we can make it cheap and small. But man will it be delicate and slow. Who cares ... as long as it works for a few weeks ... and keeps the troops entertained."
Frankly, my students and I find the Tiny SA Ultra to be quite slow ... it takes its sweet time to boot, and then up and catch up changes in input. So the ultimate end user for such an item is bit a UFO-ey. Weird!
Serious RF designers will use serious, $$ devices by Tektronix or R&S or Agilent.
That leaves budget hobbyists ... but who? HAM radio enthusiasts? Is that the "intended audience" for products like Tiny?
Or is the "intended audience" just another shopping cart addict wanting another cheap toy to play with?
Please, pontificate ...

[BillyO]

Fuck.  I give up.

Is your earth nice and flat too?

[13hm13]

So we are living in a dream simul (situ) ation ;-) You bet!

Well, they say that for the average human perception is more important than reality.  The thing is, people in the sciences and technology strive to get closer to reality.  For them, what it should be, or what it looks like, are irrelevant.  They want to know what it really is.  That's why the entire T & M industry exists.  And they all (every firckin' one of them) expect you to read an understand the specifications of the equipment they sell.  I warrant that in most cases equipment like this is not marketed to laypersons.  These are not coffee makers.  You are expected to have a modicum of understanding before you engage.

Yes, it's unclear how and why certain stuff arises in "reality" ... like our friend, the Tiny. Were the designers "possessed" to develop and promote such a weird, niche product? It's like UFOs or all the Randall Carlson stuff  ... poof ... magic and dreams.

[BillyO]

Yes, it's unclear how and why certain stuff arises in "reality"

No.  You have missed the point on sooo... many levels.

Stop trolling or you will be reported.

[erikka]

Who designed the Tiny and WHY?

I designed the tinySA

These were the design goals for the tinySA Basic:

• Standalone portable RF SA
• Maximum retail price 50$
• Usable by novice SA user
• Reliable measurements
• Spur free
• All the functions of a big SA
• Frequency range from 100kHz to 350MHz
• No need for very narrow RBW (use your favorite SDR)

And these where the goals for the Ultra

• Everything the tinySA Basic does
• Bigger display (4”)
• Real LNA so lower NF (below 5)
• Narrower resolution filters (200Hz minimum)
• Much higher single input frequency range (up to 800MHz)
• Storage for measurements and screenshots (SD slot)
• 3.5mm audio output for AM demodulation and trigger beep.

I'm happy to hear your tinySA did survive

[rteodor]

Would it be feasible/possible to use two tiny's one as a tracking gen and another one as SA synchronizing them over USB ?

I'm not using TinySA (Ultra) often but every time I use it is proven to be a big big help. A very much thanks to Erik.

Later edit: What I had in mind was to update NanoVNA python software to simulate TG function. But if the MCU inside has USB host capability TG might be implemented in firmware.

[erikka]

There is currently no USB host function in the sw

[13hm13]

Fuck.  I give up.

Whoa, toots ... back off the ledge now ... nice n' easy . Give the fire dept some time to set up the Rapid Air Cushion:


About using the TinySA for audio ... some of you think this is nuts.
My students, who often post on my behalf (they have full access to my EEV Blog account), have some comments. I'll let "Miceal Jacson" chime in:
Hey, there. We ain't talkin' 'bout audio in  the wireless/broadcast spectrum ... ya know ... HAM or AM or FM or TV or shortwave .. the RF'y stuff. We're talkin audio electronic devices  that are completely local ... in your CD player or D/A processor.  And no ... SA (audio software) via the typical data-acquisition (sound card) ain't gonna work.
So what's this hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh skoooooooooooooooler 'ferrin' ta?

[13hm13]

Who designed the Tiny and WHY?

I designed the tinySA

These were the design goals for the tinySA Basic:

• Standalone portable RF SA
• Maximum retail price 50$
• Usable by novice SA user
• Reliable measurements
• Spur free
• All the functions of a big SA
• Frequency range from 100kHz to 350MHz
• No need for very narrow RBW (use your favorite SDR)

And these where the goals for the Ultra

• Everything the tinySA Basic does
• Bigger display (4”)
• Real LNA so lower NF (below 5)
• Narrower resolution filters (200Hz minimum)
• Much higher single input frequency range (up to 800MHz)
• Storage for measurements and screenshots (SD slot)
• 3.5mm audio output for AM demodulation and trigger beep.

I'm happy to hear your tinySA did survive

I paid $140 for an Ultra. From AliExpress. This is a fair price.

Confused about your comments. If you are the designer then please comment as to why the unit survived.
You may use this:
https://www.ahsystems.com/EMC-formulas-equations/dBm_Volts_Watts_Conversion.php
Also, have look at:


... And comment on the Tiny  SA's built-in Variable Atten and Mixer. Do you have a schematic?

[erikka]

For technical info look here: https://tinysa.org/wiki/pmwiki.php?n=TinySA4.TechnicalDescription

If you open the device you can see the part numbers.
The build in attenuator is the PE4312: https://www.psemi.com/products/rf-attenuators/general-purpose-rf-digital-step-attenuators/pe4312
The mixer is the ADE-25MH: https://www.minicircuits.com/pdfs/ADE-25MH.pdf

[switchabl]

Well, this has taken a weird turn...

In any case, I noticed that 13hm13's TinySA seems to be labelled "+6 dBm MAX" and not +10 dBm. I wonder what the story behind that is. It certainly has the potential to add to the apparent confusion.

[baldurn]

About using the TinySA for audio ... some of you think this is nuts.
My students, who often post on my behalf (they have full access to my EEV Blog account), have some comments. I'll let "Miceal Jacson" chime in:
Hey, there. We ain't talkin' 'bout audio in  the wireless/broadcast spectrum ... ya know ... HAM or AM or FM or TV or shortwave .. the RF'y stuff. We're talkin audio electronic devices  that are completely local ... in your CD player or D/A processor.  And no ... SA (audio software) via the typical data-acquisition (sound card) ain't gonna work.
So what's this hiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiigh skoooooooooooooooler 'ferrin' ta?

We don't think it is nuts. We are telling you that it wont work. The minimum frequency of the TinySA is 100 kHz. The maximum frequency of audio is 20 kHz. Is this a special brand of highschool where you can't realize that one number is bigger than the other?

But that is not the only problem. TinySA has a minimums resolution bandwidth of 200 Hz. This means it can't tell anything apart that is closer than 200 Hz. That is absolutely no good for audio.

There is also the problem of how are you going to sample the signals? Connecting TinySA does not only have the potential to destroy the TinySA but it will probably also destroy your CD player. I fear you believe the TinySA is a cheap oscilloscope! A scope has high impedance input which means you can probe electrical circuits with minimum loading. Spectrum analyzers are not used in that way. They have very low impedance input and will absolute crash and destroy anything you touch because the input is practically shorting to ground. Can only be connected to RF outputs that are made to deliver RF power at 50 ohm impedance. Or to an antenna.

The correct instruments to work on a CD player is a good oscilloscope and, yes, a sound card to sample the audio and do spectrum analysis in software. You could also try the FFT function of the scope. There does exist special audio analyzers that the prof people use, but alas nobody made a "tiny" version of those and I suspect you wont be able to afford one (unless you find a used vintage).

Instead of keep spewing garbage all over the site, you could just tell us what exactly you need to measure or what you are working on and get much better advice. Preferably in another thread as this one is about TinySA, which happens to be about RF not audio.

[gf]

Would it be feasible/possible to use two tiny's one as a tracking gen and another one as SA synchronizing them over USB ?

I'm not using TinySA (Ultra) often but every time I use it is proven to be a big big help. A very much thanks to Erik.

Later edit: What I had in mind was to update NanoVNA python software to simulate TG function. But if the MCU inside has USB host capability TG might be implemented in firmware.

What TG+tinySA use case do you have in mind that cannot be covered by NanoVNA/LiveVNA/etc. alone?

[13hm13]

We don't think it is nuts. We are telling you that it wont work. The minimum frequency of the TinySA is 100 kHz. The maximum frequency of audio is 20 kHz. Is this a special brand of highschool where you can't realize that one number is bigger than the other?

But that is not the only problem. TinySA has a minimums resolution bandwidth of 200 Hz. This means it can't tell anything apart that is closer than 200 Hz. That is absolutely no good for audio.

There is also the problem of how are you going to sample the signals? Connecting TinySA does not only have the potential to destroy the TinySA but it will probably also destroy your CD player. I fear you believe the TinySA is a cheap oscilloscope! A scope has high impedance input which means you can probe electrical circuits with minimum loading. Spectrum analyzers are not used in that way. They have very low impedance input and will absolute crash and destroy anything you touch because the input is practically shorting to ground. Can only be connected to RF outputs that are made to deliver RF power at 50 ohm impedance. Or to an antenna.

The correct instruments to work on a CD player is a good oscilloscope and, yes, a sound card to sample the audio and do spectrum analysis in software. You could also try the FFT function of the scope. There does exist special audio analyzers that the prof people use, but alas nobody made a "tiny" version of those and I suspect you wont be able to afford one (unless you find a used vintage).

Instead of keep spewing garbage all over the site, you could just tell us what exactly you need to measure or what you are working on and get much better advice. Preferably in another thread as this one is about TinySA, which happens to be about RF not audio.

baldurn:
You make so many false assumptions, I lost track. You lack both technical background and  emotional control, in a group of your own peers (most are not mine), an (hence) embarrass yourself repeatedly, in a popular public interface such as EEV blog forum.

The high-school student is way ahead of the pack in what he noted. Go back to the internals of a CD player.
And you can even use a NanoVNA for this application.

[nctnico]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with what Baldurn is suggesting. I feel truly sorry for your students... It reminds me of the phrase: 'Those who can, do; those who can't, teach'. It is no surprise you feel your students are way ahead, they likely are way ahead of you. Maybe let your students figure out which instrument to use for audio. They likely come up with some nifty phone app which uses the internal audio codec ('soundcard') from their phones and uses some FFT to do frequency analysis of the signal.

[BillyO]

Well, this has taken a weird turn...

In any case, I noticed that 13hm13's TinySA seems to be labelled "+6 dBm MAX" and not +10 dBm.

Mine, received just 2 days ago, also says +6dBm and 5VDC MAX.  I notice the picture on the tinysa.org website shows +10dBm and 10VDC MAX.  However, the one of the pictures on the Zeenko store on AliExpress shows the same as mine (+6dBm/5VDC) but another picture there shows +10dBm and 5VDC!?

[Simon]

The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver.
Audio applications work in various impedance environments such as 600 ohm or high impedance.
A 5 volt RMS signal in a 50 ohm system equals +27dBm and will kill your tinySA very quickly.
5v at 0.22mA suggests a source impedance of 25kOhm. If the max current the generator can supply is indeed 0.22mA a 50 ohm load will only receive -7dBm but don't rely on my calculations. You better NOT connect the tinySA to your audio signal generator. You seem to get -3.6dBm so the source impedance of your generator is about 12kOhm

For pure audio applications the phase noise of the tinySA prevents it to measure at frequencies below 10kHz and dynamic range drops quickly below 100kHz. Level is calibrated down to 20kHz.
There is no solution for this problem.
Any RF SA that uses an oscillator to do frequency translation (instead of using an ADC to directly sample the input) will have a problem with measuring signals at very low frequencies.
For these low frequencies you best use a dedicated appliance

Not only is your reply significantly confusing, you are significantly confused by my use and my signal gen.
This is my sig gen:
https://www.koolertron.com/koolertron-dds-signal-generator-counter-2-4in-screen-display-30mhz-high-precision-dual-channel-arbitray-waveform-generator-frequency-meter.html

I used a Fluke 87 DMM to measure the voltage of Koolertron generating 1khz at 5 v_p-p . The Fluke 87 DMM  reads about 1.3 V_ac.

You , Erik Kaashoek:, note: "The tinySA is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world where signals are typically transferred in a setup that uses a characteristic impedance of 50 ohm for optimal power transfer between generator and receiver."
This is new to me!
The video here notes:" A short video introducing the tinySA, a small 0.1MHz to 350MHz handheld spectrum analyzer that also can be used as a signal."
generator"

So if the Tiny SA (Ultra) is "is an RF SA, dedicated to measurements in the RF world " (your words, not mine), why does the Tiny SA unit also offer freqs and options below typical RF (say, 0-100khz)?

Also can you please stop posting in large fonts like that. People are not stupid or blind!

[baldurn]

The high-school student is way ahead of the pack in what he noted. Go back to the internals of a CD player.
And you can even use a NanoVNA for this application.

You realize that most versions of the NanoVNA have a lower frequency limit of 50 kHz and therefore can not measure in the audio domain?

Instead you can use the Bode plot function of some modern oscilloscopes. This is cheap and easy. Both Rigol and Siglent have this in their lower end offerings.

I do hope it is not the case, that you bought the TinySA thinking it could replace the scope?

[rhb]

My HP 8560A & 8593E SAs both have  warning labels to not apply *any* DC and the input damage level.  I am not aware of any professional piece of RF T&M kit that lacks such warnings.

As mentioned buy some attenuators. 

Reg

[wd8dsb]

13hm13

You must be careful with your NanoVNA too.  Here is a quote from another forum about the maximum allowable signal level on the NanoVNA ports.

  “So what is the maximum power that can be applied to the input port?  Leon Huang, the designer of the NanoVNA-F, replied that it is +20 dBm as shown in the second attachment.  All NanoVNA variants using a resistive bridge share the same front end design, so I think the +20 dBm specification is applicable across the board.

   Also note in the partial schematic Leon provided that the NanoVNA port input is DC coupled, so if the device you are testing is dc powered ensure the dc is decoupled from the NanoVNA test port.  If not, similar damage may occur from DC power exceeding 100 mW.”

Don

[wd8dsb]

13hm13,

You also asked elsewhere why the Spectrum Analyzer front end is not protected, and here is a link to a Siglent article that discusses why Spectrum Analyzer front ends are "not protected or only vaguely protected".

See section 7 called "Input Protection" in the Siglent article, and here is a link to the Siglent article.
https://www.siglenteu.com/application-note/pre-compliance-basics-analyzer-configuration-settings-and-protection/

Don