Author Topic: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.  (Read 35325 times)

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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #75 on: February 03, 2018, 02:08:37 pm »
OK, maybe something helpful from me.

I tested a 700 before selling it to a fellow forum member. I recall that the 850A probe with its narrow tip produced quite insensitive performance on the 700 unit. I then attached the probe that came with a Polar non contact short circuit tracer (audio only). That probe produced normal performance on the 700. The better performing probe was notable in that it had a much larger tip dimension. Probably around 3X wider than my 850A probe.

I am thinking that the 850A and 700 use different inductors in the probe head. I do not have a probe to test at the moment so cannot provide you with the better performing probes inductance. You may have to experiment a little. If you are getting 1/10 the voltage level, try an inductor with 10x the winding count. i.e 10x the value. Be careful what coax you use with the probe. The original coax was just simple low cost audio cable.

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 02:10:41 pm by Fraser »
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #76 on: February 03, 2018, 02:11:34 pm »
I will upload the 850A schematics as they may show the difference in the probe input circuits.

Fraser
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #77 on: February 03, 2018, 02:17:48 pm »
I have found possible confirmation of my suspicions regarding different inductors in the 850A Vs the 700 probes. Take a look at the attached pictures. One is of the Polar 580 audio only tracer. I used the probe from one of these for the 700 unit.

Then look at the two probe pictures. The fine tip probe is from an 850A. The probe with the wider tip is the standard probe supplied with the 700 unit.

Try a larger value inductor !

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:21:48 pm by Fraser »
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #78 on: February 03, 2018, 02:20:51 pm »
I do have another Toneohm 580 stored away somewhere. If you can wait a day or so, I will find it and measure the probe inductance for you.

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:21:59 pm by Fraser »
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Offline perdrix

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #79 on: February 03, 2018, 04:12:15 pm »
Thank you very much,

Certainly aiming to increase to the turn count by an order of magnitude makes excellent sense,  I'll await your measurements on the earlier probe with great interest.

I'll await your measurements with great interest.

Cheers
Dave

 

Offline perdrix

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #80 on: February 08, 2018, 11:03:49 am »
I asked Polar Instruments the price of the current probe for the 700.

Quote
The price of the probes you require for a 700 is:

ACC114 - £86.55 plus VAT and P&P £8.06

Ouch!
Dave
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #81 on: February 08, 2018, 01:52:21 pm »
Yes, sadly they are expensive. I purchased one when they were less than £50 +Vat but that still hurt !

I will try to find the other 550 for testing today.

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:24:26 pm by Fraser »
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #82 on: February 14, 2018, 10:12:14 pm »
OK, I have, at last, managed to dig out the Polar 580 and it's probe.

I desoldered the probe coax cable from the PCB and took the following measurements using my Mastech MS5308 and DER EE DE5000.

Mastech MS5308

F = 1KHz  L = 986.4uH  Q = 0.218
F = 10KHz L = 986.5uH Q = 2.14
F = 100KHz L = 1100.1 Q = 14.09

DER EE DE5000

F = 1KHz  L = 981.4uH  Q = 0.217
F = 10KHz L = 982.6uH Q = 2.14
F = 100KHz L = 1100.9uH Q = 14.73

The Resistance is measured at 28.3 Ohms including the coaxial cable of approx 0.5m.

The physical measurements of the probe tip are : 5mm x 4mm x 10mm long.

A SMT inductor of spec 1mH @ 100KHz and Rs 28 Ohms looks appropriate.

Hope this is of assistance to those who wish to make their own probe for Toneohm units that require this larger inductance in the probe head.

Fraser
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:32:58 pm by Fraser »
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Offline perdrix

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #83 on: February 16, 2018, 06:17:50 pm »
I bought some Murata LQH43MN102J03L 1mH (size 1812) inductors.

I'm delighted to report they work perfectly for making your own ToneOhm 700 current probe.





When I do the calibration setup I get about 150mVpp as the best signal when adjusting R78 with the drive source connected across a 10 ohm resistor.

So that's another "little" job finished.

Thanks to Fraser for measuring his probe.

Cheers
Dave
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 06:36:35 pm by perdrix »
 
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2018, 06:47:08 pm »
Thank you for highlighting this difference between models of Toneohm  :-+

Fraser
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Offline perdrix

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2018, 01:10:01 pm »
Just for the halibut, here's a picture of the completed probe made from a ballpoint pen that I repurposed ...



Cheers
Dave Partridge
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 01:12:19 pm by perdrix »
 
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2018, 01:41:44 pm »
Nice work  :-+

Fraser
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Offline aqibi2000

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #87 on: December 12, 2019, 11:16:57 am »
Hi Fraser,

You don’t also happen to have a Polar t2500/3000/4000/6000 with a small CRT display?

My screen is very dim and looking for a comparison to help fix it the issue.

Cheers
Tinkerer’
 

Offline fcb

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #88 on: December 12, 2019, 12:29:23 pm »
Reach out to Polar Instruments - they are good guys and might help you with schematics of old products.

I have a mint 950 ToneOhm and all the toys, rarely used sadly - still current model I believe.
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Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #89 on: December 12, 2019, 01:31:43 pm »
+1 on contacting Polar. They certainly helped me when I needed support for one of their older units.

Fraser
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Offline aqibi2000

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #90 on: December 15, 2019, 11:12:10 pm »
Great to hear that, can either of you suggest a contact since I have not heard back from : neil@polarinstruments.com since my email last Monday.

You should look into the V/I tracers fantastic for faulty funding too.
Tinkerer’
 

Online FraserTopic starter

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #91 on: December 16, 2019, 12:05:38 am »
I have several Polar and Huntron V/I tracers in the lab  8)

As you say, very useful  :-+

Fraser
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Offline all_repair

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #92 on: December 16, 2019, 02:32:38 am »
Likely I am doing wrong, I am not able to apply consistent pressure on the measuring points.  My objective was to use it to find the shorted component (location).  The differences in the applied-pressure appears to be more than the trace resistances so I find the tracer impossible to use.  Help me. 
 

Offline aqibi2000

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #93 on: December 16, 2019, 12:27:39 pm »
I have several Polar and Huntron V/I tracers in the lab  8)

As you say, very useful  :-+

Fraser
My favourite tool ;D

Likely I am doing wrong, I am not able to apply consistent pressure on the measuring points.  My objective was to use it to find the shorted component (location).  The differences in the applied-pressure appears to be more than the trace resistances so I find the tracer impossible to use.  Help me. 

Use soldered wires on the traces you are inspecting in order to eradicate probe pressure resistance problems  ^-^
« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 12:29:38 pm by aqibi2000 »
Tinkerer’
 
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Offline fcb

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #94 on: December 16, 2019, 01:36:04 pm »
When I was designing the probe tips for our V/I tester (sharp stainless steel), we did some research into pressure vs. tip shape. You certainly want a sharp tip to penetrate soldermask (if probing the tracks directly), but if it is too sharp you can easily 'puncture' the copper foil track, then you get some really weird results.

Toneohms are sensitive to very small deviations in resistance.  Check your tips for oxidation and you might find a slightly more rounded tip better.
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Offline Shock

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #95 on: December 16, 2019, 09:38:57 pm »
I own two of those HP 547A Current Tracers, the second one was meant to be a probe but was a tracer. They are very cool tools, the price has gone through the roof on them though. I also have an HP 546A Logic Pulser, HP 545A Logic Probe and the HP 10529A Logic Comparator which is all part of that set, useful for vintage logic.

Adjustable curve tracers can be also be used for circuit testing, capacitor leakage testing, finding shorts etc. How far they cross over into the functionality of equipment like Huntron Trackers which also do component testing, I'd have to look into.

« Last Edit: December 16, 2019, 09:56:01 pm by Shock »
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Offline aqibi2000

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #96 on: December 18, 2019, 12:48:54 pm »
seeing this thread reminds me of something i read 2 days ago
i dug it again and here it is

https://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/the-emc-blog/4462331/Trace-ESD-current-paths-with-the-HP-547A


HP547A

the entire circuit is inside the "pen", amazing idea for something made in 70s
i also saw many DIY spin offs on the webs

Can you reference the DIY Current probes

Thanks
Tinkerer’
 

Offline Ghull07

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ALTERNATIVE TO TONE-OHM???
« Reply #97 on: December 27, 2019, 09:20:01 am »
I’m surprised I didn’t see it mentioned in this thread, And I apologize if I’m mistaken.

 There is a very similar device to the Tone-Ohm.

It’s called the “leak-seeker 89” by “electronic design specialists” (EDS). It Was designed by Dave Migga 20 or 30 years ago. I’ve recently built one, and I am very impressed. It may very well replace my polar toneOhm devices that have been on my bench for the past few years.

 It’s very intuitive, very accurate, and super easy to use! EDS doesn’t sell them anymore, and they can’t be found used. But Dave at EDS offers parts kits, Including programmed chips.

And “the eccentric workshop“ sells The PCB’s for $20, Original enclosure for $30, and even the original graphic decals for $10. All of it is the highest quality with no expense spared… so total build cost will be around $160. Very well worth it in my opinion!
The guy from eccentric workshop worked really hard tracking down the original enclosures, which are made in America and very high quality. He designed the PCBs to great quality, and they drop effortlessly into the enclosure. It’s very obvious the PCB was designed to drop in that exact enclosure. it fits like a glove and makes Construction super fast! The decals are very high-quality vinyl, and have a UV protective top layer which should allow them to last a long time.
I’m only a hobbyist, but my entire workbench is equipped with HP and TEK gear that I purchased “untested or broken”… And repaired myself. my experience and understanding is extremely lacking when compared to most of you guys… But I have disassembled, diagnosed, or repaired 50 or so pieces of “decent“ test gear in the past year. Mostly tek and HP stuff. So although Im inexperienced and not so knowledgeable… I have a basic understanding of what quality looks like...inside and out.
And leakseeker has a good fit and finish, & a lot of thought has gone into design. The parts are all high-quality and everything is as it should be.

If you search for the leak seeker 89 on YouTube, there’s a guy or who repairs video games and consoles… I don’t quite remember his name but he has a video demonstrating this device. He is very impressed with it. He didn’t really read the manual or practice with it first, so it’s a bit slow & repetitive… But you’ll get the general idea.
 I can tell you from experience, it took me about two hours to build the unit, and then about 30 minutes playing around with it, to become comfortable with the user interface. like I said it’s very intuitive. A child could use it. And it’s incredibly sensitive, But with the ability to adjust sensitivity and re-calibrate automatically.....in a heartbeat... without moving your hands or lifting the probe.

The designer (Dave migga) also has a few videos on the design.

Don’t get me wrong, I love my TONEOHM devices, my HP current tracer, my various curve tracers, my DE5000, The diy ESR multimeter adapter designed by the gentleman here on the forum, and of course my flir thermal camera. But the LEAKSEEKER  was a welcome addition to my bench. And I’m sure you see the connection between all of those devices.... and my terrible grammar or writing style.... those devices make it easier for a dummy like myself, Who lacks great experience and understanding, but is learning quickly. And these various faultfinding tools feel like cheating… but help a beginner like myself to understand & see what’s happening in the circuit.

Thank you for enduring my write up.
I hope someone finds this helpful.
 
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Offline Shock

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #98 on: December 27, 2019, 12:43:07 pm »
Welcome to the forums and congrats on building your Leakseeker. I don't own one but I've known about the Leakseeker for a while now. From what I have seen in the past it works fairly similar to the Polar Toneohms but with auto ranging and has a simplified interface, with perhaps better resolution.

It would be interesting to see a modern implementation of similar audible auto ranging short finder, would bring down the build cost a bit as well. Personally for me though I'd prefer to see the numerical value of the short at the same time as well as the LED bar and an optional audible tone.

Unless I'm missing something about the Leakseeker signal or features a low voltage ohmmeter with good resolution or by supplying a small constant current into the short and measure mV will get a similar result if you pay close attention to the measurement increasing or decreasing.

The other old EDS product the Cap Analyzer is similar in that it has a simplified interface, it tests DC resistance as well (which is handy) but otherwise I think the Bob Parkers ESR Meter design is better as it's a low cost kit.

On the subject of low voltage ESR meters... since they need milliohm resolution to be usable for characterizing capacitor ESR they just happen to be good for finding low resistance shorts as well. A basic demonstration on how this works is in the below video featuring another cheap ESR kitset meter the ELV ESR1.

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Offline aqibi2000

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Re: Toneohm 850A short finder by Polar Instruments - a look under the hood.
« Reply #99 on: December 29, 2019, 12:24:04 am »
In terms of a cheap implementation of using a milli ohm meter just for comparison purposes of traces.

This is an excellent implementation, with the addition of a small LED bar graph display and interpreting the ADC values this can be easily be adapter to some use.

https://youtu.be/EYaIrRViKq0
Tinkerer’
 


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